Editor’s note: Lovefraud received the following email from a man whom we’ll call “Miran.”
It is very shocking to me to come to know that these people do exist in Life. I always lived in a world with good people around me, and never faced any emotional traumas in my life (I am 34 BTW).
I met this girl, she is 22, cute, intelligent, amazing smile, not over pretty but something charming in her I could not understand. We started chatting and texting for a period of 4 months (on and off) and she always made me feel confused, even though we met more than once (not as dates) and we exchanged kisses more than once (she initiated).
The whole scenario kept me confused, and I always felt reluctant to ask her out on a date, or tell her that I like her cause my guts were aching from all the awkwardness they had. I sent her some cookies, got her things that really matter to her, and she always pretended that she is over the moon cause she said I am so thoughtful and she can’t believe I exist.
Set a date
One day, she calls me and asks me if she can come over as she got me a bday gift. She came over got me a gift and confessed that she likes me and wants us to try a relationship. Off course I agreed cause this girl was awesome and we know a lot about each other from the past 4 months of texting and random meetings (Naive I know).
We set a date, I pick her up, treat her like a queen, and spend nice couple of hours together. Next day she calls me and tells me she is scared of commitment and she wants to stop. So I agreed as nothing has happened and asked her to forget what happened. Well she did not, she kept on texting me and calling me, so to my good nature I thought she is reluctant cause of age difference and stuff.
So we went out on another date and she tells me that we are just friends. I got pissed and told her that is not a game, and she is out. Again same pattern, she kept on stalking me and coming to my office (we kinda work together) and weeping that she wants me to give her another chance. I did unfortunately cause she has a way with words that she could make anyone fall.
The victim
The relationship started, and it’s like a nervous meltdown for me, yet I hanged on because she told me that she is a victim of child molestation (more than one incident) which I found very awkward. She told me stuff about her that made me feel sorry for her.
She sold me an image that she is a bad person and I am her light and guidance and she cant live without me. Â She started reading books about love and spirituality cause she knows I like this stuff, she used to like everything I like, and read about it and intrigue me with her knowledge I am that type of Guy, a woman’s brain is what I look for. So to me she was the one.
I know a bit about her background (lying, multiple partners, promiscuous sexuality), and several people warned me, yet we live in a closed society and people tend to judge and talk about women, so I decided to believe in her and forget what I heard. She always said that people talk about her, and she gives different versions of the story to many people.
Making excuses
She played a game of not being available cause she has a curfew from her parents (we live in the Middle East) and she can not see me all the time, and she has to lie to her parents to see me. I could not buy her lame excuses as we work in the same bldg, so I decided that this relationship needs to end cause of the lying.
I ended it, but again the same scenario happened and she said that she will make things work, and she will put more effort. She was literally doing no effort, I changed my gym classes, I changed many things for her, and yet she kept using her curfew as an excuse even though she traveled to Thailand alone (yea right). I kept raising this issue and she always claimed that she trying her best, and she wants me to stay with her and promised me the moon and the stars.
Misses me
I decided to take a vacation to clear my mind, and guess what she showed me the greatest love ever by calling me and crying that she misses me, and that she is scared that I hurt her, and she can’t stop thinking about me. Me being naive again though that things are going smooth, went back home and saw the best 2 weeks of my life, sexually (only foreplay cause she said she is a virgin) and spiritually.
Then she dumps me cause I caught her lying again, wonderful. And then comes to my place crying she wants me back, as she was travelling for work. I AGREED AS USUAL cause I felt so sorry for her, cause she made me feel like I am the only person on earth that can save her. She travels and gives the cold shoulder after me agreeing on us to get back together, and guess what, she meets someone there and make out and flirt based on my intel from people who were with her. She comes back, dumps me and I did not have a clue what happened until later.
When I knew she was playing me, I confronted her and she just walked away. She told some of my friends that I am crazy and she does not give a damn about what I think of her. We work together, she got some balls literally.
“Mission accomplished”
This issue is almost a month old, and I can’t get over the fact that I was manipulated, I still cannot believe that she is a psychopath, and when things clear up, you dot the i’s and voila you have a perfect picture of her plans and lies. I feel so dumb, naive, stupid and angry. I feel violated, she was the only one I opened up to and talked about my real feelings towards her and I still remember well when I said that she replied “mission accomplished” and hugged me.
She used to make me feel guilty, she pushed me to justify her acts, and she always won in confrontation. Take into consideration am a senior management with lots of confidence and logic. She did not have any logic, and her logic is so distorted that she makes you doubt yourself.
I decided to do more digging, and found that she has been seeing other guys, she is very active sexually (not with me / I only get the foreplay) and she has all the time in the world to do whatever she wants.
Spell on me
Her lies are so clear, yet I believed her, is that normal? She literally put a spell on me. She is not a great Liar, and they have flaws, what did she expect? What did she want from me?
I feel lost, can’t focus, depressed, and hateful. Yet I always think that the time will come and I will forgive her.
We tend to bump into each other quite often cause we work in the same facility, do you think I should make peace with her to avoid any retaliation? Â How can I overcome this feeling?
Do you think I should make peace with her after some time? I hate holding grudges, and I love to forgive cause it’s freeing.
What do you suggest?
How can a run-in with a sociopath be a spiritual journey?
RUN! Initiate No Contact immediately.
You sound like a nice, decent man and she will only bring you down in every way possible. You’ll find a nice, DECENT woman who deserves you.
Do not waste your time and energy on her or you’ll wake up one day to discover that you’ve spent the last 20 years in Hell. Do not have anything to do with her. Do not talk about her. She will spread lies and rumors about you and ruin your career, your reputation and your life. Take care and steer clear.
Yes, I agree with Rosie. Handle your feelings as best you can, but DON’T engage her on any level. Ignore, ignore, ignore. Be boring. There is no need to forgive HER. Just work on your own life and feelings. You had a gut feeling, from the start, that something was wrong. So, you were right, and now you have the proof. Congratulations. Good job doing your best to take care of yourself.
Yes it is TOTALLY normal to ‘believe’ these types (remember, none of us really believed TOTAL LIARS existed before our experiences). We all feel angry, hurt, betrayed, and sickened when we finally realize what has happened. But having anything, and I mean ANYTHING, to do with her will not make these feeling lessen. In fact they will make them worse. She will enjoy rubbing salt into your wounds.
You sound smart, kind, and capable; and you can get through this even smarter and better.
Slim
I know this is hard to hear right now, and hard to believe this 100% in your heart but it is in your best interest to never speak to her again. This will be the hardest thing you will need to do to begin your recovery but I can tell you from experience, it’s worth it.
Love is beautiful, and we have the capacity for so much love in our lives. Not everyone deserves to feel our love so focus on those who do.
Get back in touch with yourself and take some time to really process what you are feeling. When I’m feeling down I like to sit and write down exactly what I am feeling, and what exactly is making me feel that way. It really helps to put it to words and truly identify each emotion you are feeling. I then look at those two lists and try to identify what I can do to change it. Your mind and soul need to heal from her toxicity but also remember to move on and live your life.
Keep in touch with love and spirituality. You’ll get through this.
Also, one comment that I forgot to mention in my above reply. You ask about forgiveness. You need to forgive yourself first and foremost. You are not the only one to have gone through this, and unfortunately it often happens to the most wonderful and compassionate people.
Don’t hold a grudge, as that will weigh down your heart. But, release yourself from the situation and carry on with your life. There is no need to speak to her when you bump into her.
Your story sounds almost EXACTLY like mine. I determined that mine is some combination of Borderline/Sociopath. Please believe me when I tell you that this will not ever end well with this person. Any contact with her to try to make amends will fail. There is no winning with her. Any contact you make will ultimately be at your own peril. I know how hard this is, but for your sanity, please go no contact and stay that way. Some people are evil and when you make contact again, they see you as a weak victim who they can continue to victimize. If you go no contact, they will see that you are strong and that you refuse to be a victim anymore. This could potentially get her to try harder to get your attention again, but don’t fall for it. If she ever tries to even speak to you again, ignore her. It goes against our loving/caring nature to do this and not try to make things right with someone, but it’s completely pointless and will only hurt us more. Please trust me and make no contact with her ever again. I know from experience.
This is so true.
You have to go totally no contact. Otherwise, you are just a sucker once again. Weak, because you still want the relationship.
It cannot work.
The’Why’. I have a niece like this – age 35. I am 50. I know a neighbor girl like this, age 18 now.
I observed. They need to string people along because they know they will lose them. No one ever stays. So they keep as many as they can strung along.
I watched the 18 yr old use me to drive her to school at age 16, etc. I lived very close to her. I watched her manipulate a string of boys and girls to do things for her.
She had a birthday party at age 16 and no one came. Everyone has had it with her.
I felt bad.
I do realize she is born this way, but also really does know EXACTLY what she is doing. It is her survival.
Many have come and gone out of their lives, they are used to it.
I helped her when I could because she did need it. She did need some rides. I brought her to places to learn how to apply for jobs, hair school.
But I watched her be a master at manipulation and NOT care about anyone. Not her mom or little brother.
yes, I would say she is a sociopath.
She is now working and likes it. I am glad I helped her.
But boy, I am glad I don’t see her anymore and she is out manipulating others to get her needs met.
it is sad. But I can’t be another victim either.
This is very insightful, Dana.
It can make so called ‘normal’ people Feel sorry for them.
Why do they think that everyone will leave? What about the SP who is BORN this way? Or the SP who had a normal loving parent? Who left them or does that even figure into it?
It’s so confusing.
Or…are they all born this way? If not right from birth, can, say, a forceps birth cause actual damage to the emotion part of the brain?
I guess the why and what for does not matter. The fact is that they use people and have no capacity for love, feeling it or giving it.
Geez. It really is sad for them…but does anyone want to stay around such a one-sided ‘relationship’? How can a so called normal person stand to do that?
Miran ,,,,
Sorry to hear of your difficulties with this girl, I know you feel played & used and she sort of did hide and disrespect you in many ways but I would not go so far as to call her a “psychopath”. This is not a term to be used loosely or carelessly.
You said she was a bad liar and you caught her often, & she sounds very emotional & that tells me she is probably nota psychopath they are good liars and you would not have caught her so easily, and they are not ruled by emotions.
She is only 22 an age where sexual & emotional confusion & experimentation rule …. and if she were sexually abused 2 times as she says & this could be true as well ….this type of yes/no behavior would be typical….especially if she has not worked through it in counseling. At 22 her brain is not even fully matured yet.
I see more borderline types of behavior, & a girl who is exploring her options with no desire to settle in with anyone, or even to be honest about any other men.
Many women feel obligated to give sex as a part of having a friendship with a man or feel its expected especially if they were abused.
There is still a lot of social stigma for a woman who wants options & sex, who does not want to marry the first guy she meets, or wants to have more than one partner does not go over well for males, they can do it but not the women.
I feel for you and yes the messages were so confusing and less than healthy for you …staying away is a good idea. She is not ready for anything honest or real or permanent at least not with you or now & maybe never …
To say how ever that she is a “psychopath” is a bit of a stretch & maybe I risk having people disagree with me, but I don’t see it.
In this situation bc of the age & sex abuse & over all confusion, she does not show psychopaths tendencies….. psychopaths are usually not so confused & a lot more calm… they know exactly what they want….
A 22 year old, is not same as a person who is 30 or 40, 50 etc …what if I were to say confused teen agers & young adults with poor social skills & difficulties self regulating, who are influenced by media & who’s hormones are raging are all psychopaths bc they make poor decisions???
…You have seen enough of her to know you do not want to be a part of her immature games and at that age that is probably all they are….
…If the sex abuse is true that can cause a whole lot of problems, now & in the future if not addressed around relationships, boundaries & self esteem issues.
For all you know she might be acting out & be a victim herself or she liked your attention but for what ever reason wanted to only go so far? and its her immature & indirect way of rejecting you.
The fact that you work together might impact her behavior as well. I see a confused young lady, making some poor choices, who had a hard time saying she had ambivalent feelings about you yet liked the attention …but psychopath???
too many unknowns….
So Go forward ….you sound more mature & steady & probably ready for some one who knows herself better & wants something more steady you sound a bit older as well & of course there can be many social & cultural issues that could have serious impact as well ,,,too long to get into …
It might help you to think of it as a short term dating exploration….that just did not turn out as expected …and you were able to get a clearer picture and now you can make a better assessment with your eyes open…as to a more accurate situation of what is really going on…
if you have all your fingers & toes & your heart still in your chest & it sounds like you do
she was probably not a “psychopath”
& you can be thankful for that… :)))
To finish, I want to say that they just push people away.
They do it. We don’t do just leave.
We cannot accept what they are.
Sorry for the typo
I meant
We don’t just leave…they push people away.
No offense, but I want to be as honest as possible. What is with so many men dating girls much younger than them and then complaining that the girls act very immature? That is all, she is acting like a 22 year old girl. Not much older than a teenager, still gauging her power over men, she was a child just a few years ago. Of course she is not going to act like a 34 year old woman.
Well, I gotta say that when I was 22 I was a hot ghetto mess. I had abandonment/engulfment issues and was a commitment-phobe too, and cheated on my first few bf’s. But I was not a pathological liar – this is what makes her particularly dangerous. I think forgiveness is very freeing, but if you are around her, you will probably be vulnerable to her seductive games again. If it were me, I’d see about getting another job or putting as much distance between me and her as I could. I would not give her an inch because she will take a mile.
Miran, I’m sorry that you have experienced the strange things that you described. These people are exhausting to deal with. They really take their toll on our psyches. While all the others posting comments had some interesting and valid observations, I wanted to touch on some of what some might call nuances. While I agree that labels can be a sensitive area, I think that it’s important that if we are going to hold to such standards that we do so with reciprocity, being equitable in our applications. First I want to make it clear that I’m not trying to be confrontational with anyone here as I welcome and try to be supportive to anyone who has had entanglements with individuals with personality disorders. In our personal journeys toward enlightenment each of us has had to let go of some of our long held beliefs. Many of us struggled against that process of jettisoning those old broken beliefs that trapped us and simultaneously empowered the agendas of abusive, manipulative individuals who hid in our cluelessness. If we are going to continue on our journey of enlightenment we need to remain in the mindset that facilitated that growth. We need to remain humble and without leaving off of our critical thinking, we need to be open to growth and reason. Please take these comments in that spirit.
Spaths, Psychos, Shapeshifters, Minions, Flying Monkeys. We throw around a lot of labels that to us who have learned to navigate the twisted world of cluster B’s don’t think twice about using as descriptors. I have been here at Lovefraud for years and have really benefitted from both the articles and my exchanging and sharing comments. It’s important to view things in the context that they were given. You could say we really discuss Narcicissm here as the core issue, and we discuss many different variations or subtypes. Even those here who are practicing therapists couldn’t technically give a clinical diagnosis based on a few comments, but that is not what we are attempting to do. We are sharing common experiences and attempting to wrap our heads around this demented world that we have been thrust into. When someone newer to all of this strangeness hasn’t grasped the nuances yet, it is to be expected.
This young woman exhibited plenty of behaviors that indicate she has some form of the cluster B beast within her. On a regular basis people post descriptions that are no more indicative to full blown Psychopathy than the one here. There is a tendency toward gender bias on this subject that I have experienced this many times. One of my Lovefraud friends was very helpful( thanks SITC) in sharing her gems on the subject of NVS which led me to Christine Louis de Cannonville and her site – narcissisticbehavior.net . I highly recommend that anyone wanting to increase their understanding of Toxic personalities read her articles – Can women be narcissistic ? and The Typical narcissistic woman as a friend. This is a person with a quarter century of dealing with survivors of narcissistic abuse and a wealth of personal experiences as a survivor herself. Sadly I think that many are not ready to accept the idea that there are indeed plenty of toxic females who according to deCannonville are equally destructive to deal with. Do females present differently than males ? Does society expect something different from females than from males ? There’s your answer. Sometimes we just want to vent or we need to be validated. That’s ok too. Hey, even the forums that are for female survivors only are great for what they accomplish. Personally I enjoy dropping some bombs and talking a little trash to bring the humanity back into our discussions. I might not ever get a clinical diagnosis but I still feel pretty good about calling them a gaslighting freak or similar description of their practices. Peace. I’ll try this again.
Dear Miran
I can relate to your article, as I had similar experiences.
I am about your age that girl was around 28. Nuff said.
We cant diagnose her… And there is no point in it anyways. Point is, there is acceptable and unacceptable behavior, regardless whether you are psychopath, normal joe, or a nutcase. I do learn about psychopathy now, though. Try Quora, you can have your answers answered by psychopaths and there is a lot of stuff there so you can take a peek into a psychopathic mind… then compare the patterns.
Her displaying emotions doesnt rule out she is a psychopath, as they are very good at faking. Her abuse story may be true, but again, as a means to justify ambivalent behavior you would otherwise object to, its perfect. And psychopath will go for what will work.
And playing the empathy card is an evergreen.
Psychopaths also enjoy “gaming” people, signs of that are red flags. Her web of deception seems quite complex. Shed been stringing a couple guys at a time, feeding them all elaborate lies, or so it seems. That sort of exceeds typical adolescent experimenting in my opinion. I know a couple BPDs, too, and as they may be a pain to deal with, such a complexity of schemes is rather rare.
I have had a “gamer” as well. She would not go so far as to say mission accomplished, but she would “nod”. I could actually see the reactions to unexpected things or the pleasure when she thought shed duped me.
Well, we all have periods of experimenting and learning. But, that does not mean we should always be spared repercussions. That is the way we learn what is acceptable and what isnt. Again: check what psychopaths have to say on Quora! You will see that many conform, because they want their life to be comfortable and therefor evade punishment. That implies, if there were no repercussions at all, and psychopaths were excused on the grounds that they still gauge their power over people, well, many more would be running around giving in to their impulses. Such as hurt people on a whim or out of curiosity. And we would not like that now, would we?
I agree, that its not beneficial to be draconic towards people who still experiment with boundaries. On the other hand, boundaries shall be set. When I grew up, I appreciated when someone left me of the hook with a warning the first time. Because, yes, I did not fully realize what Id done. Next time, I knew what was up, and it would be my conscious decision to try the odds. But if nothing happened, I might not know what Id done was wrong till today.
So, no contact is definitely the way to go. She had lost her privilege to access you, by being a lying manipulative person.
And, you might want to look at your options, you may find that its best for you to let go, but, maybe, you may find there is an opportunity to make her look for another job:) Anyways, if you so decide, do it carefully and fuss less, and see whether shes got something on you except personal manipulation.