Editor’s note: The following letter was sent by Lovefraud reader; we’ll call him “Bob.” Other names and locations have also been changed.
We were living in a midwest city; she moved there for her job transfer several months before the children and I could move. She had one previous affair with a co-worker in our previous city. After I discovered the affair, she sought out the job transfer. I believe the reason being to get out of town and not have to face her co-workers and our friends once the news of the affair and our failing marriage got out. She moved to the new city ahead of me, I stayed back with the children to keep them in school and sell the house. Five months later when we all finally moved to the new city, I discovered she had been having another affair in the new town. I agreed to separate and move into an apartment before I discovered that affair. Her new man even helped me move. I held on to our marriage for a while, then I finally gave up. She kept pulling me back through manipulation, attempts to control, using the children as pawns. She was able to draw me and her other men in to do for her. She still seems to have control over some of her previous lovers.
She had a great relationship with my family up until the first affair was uncovered. She could charm anyone. But when that happened, she completely cut off communications with them. She pointed fingers at them, claimed they attacked her and said bad things about her to their friends and family. My parents were deeply hurt to see what she had done to me, and they had loved her as well. She then convinced me that they were steering me in a bad direction. She turned me against them. They knew what she was all about, but my family couldn’t convince me of it. She was successful at alienating me from my family, my support network. This is how they work.
I initiated our divorce, as she would not do it, even though she continued to see her second affair regularly. She wanted the benefits of having me around to do for her, wanted to give the perception that we divorced amicably and where able to co-parent effectively. During our divorce negotiations, she found a way to get herself terminated from her high-paying job (I had stayed home with our children for four years at that point) to avoid child support and spousal maintenance. She received a one-year severance and immediately hooked up with a childhood friend who lived across the country. She began flying to see him every other weekend, leaving the children behind with me. The two of them lobbied me to agree to move to his town as, what she termed as “a family unit”. After almost two years of the harassment to move, I gave in. After I had some time to think it over, I decided it wasn’t best to move. Not good for me, not good for the children to be uprooted again for her fantasy. I had to do decide how to tell her; I was scared of her wrath. I had not worked for six years, was beaten down, emasculated, low self esteem, and likely depressed. I was tired of the continued boundary violations, manipulation; it was a toxic relationship I had to terminate.
Where I am going is that I finally had clarity, so I sat and wrote the following email to my family (note: names and locations changed). The end result”¦ She moved away without the children, sued me for custody and she ultimately lost. I fully believed she wanted me to move so I could continue to take care of the children while she moved on and did as she pleased. This cost us close to $300,000 jointly. It has almost broke me financially. She visits the children frequently, gets them for the summer, and continually attempts to alienate the children against me and my new wife. She did not, nor has intentions to, move back to our state to be with her children. That is very telling.
Dear Family,
I would like to offer an apology to all of you, and thank you for your ongoing support at the same time. You have supported me throughout this personal hell that I have endured during the past several years. I am regretful that I have pushed off your support at times, suggestions and ideas as meddling at times, but I do know that it was because you care for the kids’ and my wellbeing. It was manipulation by Angie that caused me to do that, and you knew that all along. I didn’t want to be burden to any of you, or appear to be seeking sympathy or empathy.
Many things have occurred in the past several months that have finally opened my eyes to whom and what I have been dealing with in Angie. Of course, I saw this before but never acted upon it. This woman has pretty much destroyed my life, my self-esteem, my emotional and physical health. I could say that I blame myself for allowing this to happen. Yes, I could have stopped it. I now have clarity that what has become of me is a direct result of my relationship with her. I can only equate it to having a personal relationship with Satan.
I have now decided that it is now time to take back my life, take a stand, and do only what is best for me and the boys, regardless of the impact on Angie or the repercussions that I anticipate. I realize that trying to be friends with her is only detrimental to all of us. We might be friends in the future for the children’s sake when she understand and respects boundaries, but for now, that needs to wait. I now fully understand that everything she says and does is manipulation. She got this hold on me years ago, and I was always afraid to break free of it. The fear of recourse, anger, attacks, of being alone, self-sufficient, etc. was paralyzing. Her tactics are appalling, and you have witnessed this and attempted to open my eyes to it. Now I am ready take anything she throws at me and fight it off. I felt that being friends with her would be good for me and the children. But that only gives her opportunity to use, take advantage and manipulate for her needs. Every time I give an inch, she tries to take a mile. I lose sleep, have anxieties and fears over what I feel would be her reactions to me standing up to her. It has takes a terrible toll on my wellbeing, which affects the children as well. This is like breaking a bad addiction.
What has made me change my course, you ask? Working on the house to get it ready for sale, for one. Being in her presence for extended periods of times opened up opportunities for her to attempt manipulation, to use me for her needs. What I see as her inaction in attempting to find work in Texas. I am now convinced that she has no intention of finding sustainable work in TX. The move there is solely for her benefit, so she can sit on her ass, and I get the short end of the stick.
So what do I plan to do? I drafted a long letter a couple of days ago to be sent to Angie. I have attached a copy for you, just so you see where I was going with it. It is laced with personal attacks and examples of her behavior, and my demands necessary for me to consider a move to TX. I did not send that. Upon drafting that letter, I stopped into Barnes and Noble and began to read a book about manipulation (Who’s Pulling Your Strings — How to break the cycle of Manipulation and Regain Control of Your Life) — recommended reading for all of you. I perused this book for 20 minutes and immediately realized the book was written about Angie, and about me. It had an immediate impact on me. Everything in the book is true to life as to how she operates, and the effect the manipulation has on its victim. It also provides very clear and good information on how to counter the manipulator. I remember after reading the book on narcissism (Why is it always about you? The Seven Deadly Sins of Narcissism) two years ago how that held true too. This book takes it all that much further, and sheds light on how those narcissists, and other personality types, operate and crush those in their lives to succumb to their wishes and needs, and psychological impact on those victims. I also realized that the letter I drafted would have no effect on her, other than for her to attack me, and try to further manipulate me to believe I am wrong and she is not this way. Bottom line, as I had speculated before, she is a very sick woman, and no person alive could ever convince her of it.
As much as I fear the recourse, I am prepared to deal with her in a calm and controlled fashion. This may lead another of her signature emotional breakdowns, which I now fully believe her past emotional breakdowns were manipulation tactics. If she cannot control me, she has lost something valuable to her, and she cannot handle that. This might even be crippling for her. She has attempted and been successful in convincing me that others in my life have been steering me in bad direction. That I should listen to her, that she is right, and everyone else is wrong. Well, I am done listening, because I now understand the true motivation, and I understand how I combat it.
When the shit hits the fan, which will be later today, I will need your ongoing emotional support to stay the course.
Just on a side note, I have no hard feelings about Dan (her boyfriend). I almost pity him. He is a nice man and I feel he is also a poor victim of her manipulation and lies, and has no idea what he is dealing with. But it is not my responsibility to inform him of her evil ways. From what I can gather, it is her intent to move there, have him support her, and she live the life of leisure, dabbling in hobbies for income, with no regard to what I want or need. That would also result in a legal battle to collect child support.
I know this has been a very difficult period for all of you. I know it has been tough for you to watch endure this. I know what you say to me is out of love for me and the boys. She has destroyed many lives, namely mine, but crippled others as well, and does not understand that, nor does she care.
I love you all,
Bob
After sending and mulling over the email above for a few weeks, I ultimately only sent an email to my ex advising that the children and I would not be moving. Simple as that. That put the whole custody suit in motion. She ramped up job search efforts in her boyfriend’s town, bought a huge house, all to convince the children to want to move and to convince the court that she could provide for the children better than I could. Her lies in affidavits, to the parent custodian, custody evaluator, her attorneys, expert witness, friends and in court were so appalling. It was almost uncomfortable for me to watch her as my attorney ferreted out her lies under cross-examination, to see her squirm and attempt to spin in front of the judge. I have the children now, and her antics never stop.
It was only after I bumped into my ex S and learned about sociopaths, that I started thinking that my own half- sister also has a lot of the symptoms of a Sociopath. Control, manipulation, dishonesty and callousness are there on my older half ”“sister personality. She walks over everybody if necessary to achieve her goals. She is very secretive with her life. I know at least two cases where she took over her boss’s positions after she made their lives miserable in the workplace with lies and manipulation and stabbing on their backs. One of her boss’s even had a nervous breakdown because of this. I never read her resume but I think there are a lot of lies on it. My sister doesn’t have a university degree, only took random courses in college, but she got a very high paid job. She is a person with a very good communication skills and I think that’s her weapon. She doesn’t go to church, but sometimes people invite her to go give sermons in churches. She just knows how to charm people so well. She destroyed a marriage to be with my ex brother- in- law, used him in so many ways to get where she is now and after she got what she wanted she damped him. My ex brother-in-law now is like a homeless living on government pensions and friends help, and he is the one with university degree, he has no contact with his kids from his first marriage because of her. Can you believe it? She has no close friends, because she gets friends only to use them, once they don’t have nothing else to offer her, she dumps them and moves on to other “friends”. Her friendship with other people is very temporary. A few years ago she manipulated my mom to sell her house back- home and decided to sponsor my mom to the country where she was living. My mom sold the house and brought the money and put on her account, and my mom never saw the money again up to today. Meanwhile she goes on expensive vacations, buys expensive cloths and so on and my mom leaves in a housing corporation with elderly pension. When she is with my mom she just flatter my mom with kisses and hugs and my mom still think she is the best daughter. I just stopped trying to open my mom’s eyes, because my mom is so blind to my sister’s manipulation, that she sometimes goes against me saying that I only know how to see my sister bad side. I’m having goose bumps while writing. The more I remember things done by her since childhood, the more I think she also is a sociopath.
Matt…right…amazing. But now, I can laugh, not because I’m amused, but because it was ridiculous in retrospect.
Anyway…your “become one to deal with one” idea…currently, I have minimal to no contact, even with having to see my daughter…who at 13 has to be the “go-between” on arrangements (the ex-tox ignores the spirit and letter of the Indiana Parenting Guidelines and final decree…surprised?).
But I know, someday, she’ll be contacting me directly for something she wants. I need to think about that, train myself, for the proper “S” response.
A challenge and an opportunity!
Wow. Bob. Thank you for your story, and kudo’s for taking a stand. It is important, I think to hear from men who are victims, because otherwise, it is tempting for us girls to think this behaivor is a man thing. A hunter gatherer relic gone amok. A fight or flight strategy permantly stuck on fight.
and Matt – so bang on. I have been musing on that a lot lately as I am about to fight back, and there is a bunch of that is abhorrant to me. I still cannot fathom how, after all these years, and two wonderful children, that a cup of coffee wouldn’t do it.
But no.. with these CREATURES the only way is to drain yourself of all feeling and take a stand.
One unbeleivable little quote, just for example, is when, after massive deception, humiliation, manipulation, endangerment, infidelity, etc – you know…, when I finally took my stand and said BASTA – his response, in a tiny little boy voice was -but you said you loved me…!
I was well enough along in my discovery and awakening to realize what a sick joke that was… he literally had no concept of what love is, and assumed it would transcend all affronts and betrayals to my values and sense of self.
They really, really do not get it. They know the words but not the music.
Peace to all, and welcome Bob.
eyeswideshut:
Trust me when I say that having to drain yourself of every emotion which makes you human is necessary, but leaves you feeling, well, inhuman. Not a state you want to dwell in indefinitely, but very necessary.
What was so amazing to me when I fought back was how easy it was to manipulate S in the end. Basically a case of taping a stick to his head and dangling a carrot from it. He walked right over the cliff. They really aren’t all that bright — although they like to think they are.
Amazing how often these creatures trot out the “But you said you loved me” line. I know Kathy Hawke’s trotted out that line as he trotted out the door. Ditto mine. What is so awful is realizing that not only do they have no concept of love, but they took our love and made an absolute mockery of it.
“I stopped into Barnes and Noble and began to read a book about manipulation (Who’s Pulling Your Strings ”“ How to break the cycle of Manipulation and Regain Control of Your Life) ”“ recommended reading for all of you.”
Isn’t this true for so many of us. We read a book visit a web site or trust a dear friend. But for all of us a door open and then we have the courage to walk through it. Our eyes are opens and sometimes for the first time we see with “clarity” and with our hearts and minds we begin our personal long journey to freedom and personal happiness…
Great story!
Guys, the funny thing (odd funny, not ha ha funny) is that while the psychopaths LIE LIE LIE LIE AND LIE SOME MORE, they DEMAND TOTAL HONESTY OF OTHERS.
Not only that, but they DEMAND that you HONESTLY BELIEVE THEIR LIES, and if you don’t then you are a BAD PERSON and you have INJURED THEM!!!!! ROTFLMAO!!!!
While my P son lies through his teeth, if he even THINKS that you don’t believe him, he is enraged at YOU.
I’m at a point now that I do think it is “funny” (ha ha funny) that while being the ULTIMATE LIAR,, he demands ABSOLUTE TRUTH from you! After my while family went NC with him for a while after the attempt on son C’s life by P’s dupe, he wrote and wrote letters to my egg donor (I was speaking to her at the time and could read them) filled with lies, with the attempt to have us contact him so he could “straighten the situation out” and fix everything and the “family could be one big happy faimly” again. LOL Of course noone of the problem was his fault, and he had only been trying to “help” the Trojan Horse Psychopath by sending him to rent a house from me, and he didn’t tell us about the guy being a friend of his because he didn’t want to “prejudice” us against an ex-convict, and he trusted the guy and the guy let him down, ya da ya da. Then the letters became angry and then pityful, then angry again, and so on, flip flopping fromone to the other. If one didn’t get a response he tried another angle. Of course, though none of us have responded, except for my egg donor, he used every avenue available to keep on trying until she finally did respond so now it is my egg donor and him, pitted against the rest of the UN-caring mean, nasty family who are persecuting him and ignoring her, poor babies. They are all each other have and have to “stick together” like glue.
The old saying of “divide and conqueor” is their STOCK IN TRADE. After my other son C married the P woman, she immediately started her divide and conqueor tactics, to separate him from his family and any advice we might give him. Even though I had always had a close relationship with my son, she managed to succeed in making him withdraw from the family.
While I totally agree that a “man should leave his father and mother and cleve to his wife” as the Bible points out, even this can be carried to extremes which the psychopaths count on. In an ideal partnership a man and wife make a nuclear family that should be INDEPENDENT from parental dictations, but at the same time, the psychopaths TWIST this “independence” from family to the point that they alienate and isolate the spouse from the care and concern of the extended family, so that they can work in SECRET and DARKNESS rather than have the light of reality shined on their deeds.
I’ve never been a proponent of the gossiping about my husband’s and my disagreements or minor tiffs, but if my husband had started to engage in SERIOUS problematic behavior, like theft, physical abuse, emotional abuse, drug addiction, alcoholism, etc. I would have gone to my closest friends and talked about it. I would have even (at that point in time) talked about it with my egg donor and asked for advice.
The psychopaths want to prevent you having ANY avenue of “advice” and want the inner workings of your relationship kept quiet so that they can maintain total control over it and you. I actually worked along with my X-DIL because I had taught my son that what goes on between a man and a woman who are married should not be “aired abroad” with every passing wind….and even when their situation became critical mass, he kept QUIET. He did not come to family or friends for any advice even when the situation was exploding! Even when he caught her having the affair, he kept his mouth SHUT and did not share it at all. He was trying to “fix” it by going to a counselor and protecting her “reputation” in the family and community. I realize now, that part of the “way I raised him” was partly responsible for that behavior on his part, and he was doing what he “thought was right, for the best, and to preserve the marriage.” It never dawned on him that after he caught her, she would accelerate the program and go directly to “fixing” it by killing him if she could.
While I don’t think I will ever try to dictate how my sons run their lives, or that they will dictate to me as long as I have sanity left and am not demented by old age, I think there will never be a time, or a person, who will ever come between us again as a family unit. I think we have all learned the differences between “telling” and “tattling”—-which was a concept I had tried to teach them as children that when “Johnny called me a doo doo” was TATLING, but that if “Johnny is playing with matches” is TELLING and that while tattling is NOT a good thing, TELLING about serious problems IS A GOOD THING. As children they got the differences, but apparently it was one of those things that didn’t work well in adult life while it did as a child.
Oxy…spot on. They’re the masters of “rationalization”…and of course, it’s not their fault. It’s yours. ROTFLAO…now…looking back.
Ditto on all that Oxy. Makes me think of Sam Viakim’s point (although I take him with a heaping of salt) that malignant N’s MUST hang on to their carefully constructed false persona-or collapse because “there is nobody home” there is no “person” in there. (very much paraphrased).
So, the lies they cook up, ongoing, cannot be mirrored back to them.
I know when confronted with blatant evidence of his double life my P insisted, very very chillingly that I “don’t go there”.
That was it. Shut the whole thing down like it didn’t exsist. And then expected me to continue to live the lie with him.
What I wonder is, does all this come with deep thinking and planning, or is projecting the false reality such a habit that it is like putting on your “other hat”? Maybe that is why they have the audacity to feel superior. They are more than us. They are many fake people all rolled up into one. (ha….ha…)
Dear Eyes,
My P-sperm donor I think “told the same lies over and over” that he “almost believed them”—he was frequently interviewed in the newspapers an dfor magazines, and since his lies were a) proveable as lies and b) VERY inconsistent over the years, when he got to the point he wanted to appear “respectable but eccentric” he had some real problems with the past interviews etc. Which I think were very embarassing to him because he did not want to be exposed for a liar. Soometimes if he were “caught” or confronted about one, he would, like your x just “don’t go there” with the implied “threat” along with it.
I don’t think there is any “deep thinking or planning” I think they do it “on the fly” more or less. Some of it I honestly think is a kind of confabulation….like a 5 year old may tell you a story as “truth” about how he went to the moon in a rocket ship and all the things he did while he was there. It is just making interesting conversation to get your attention and maybe make you think they are an “important” person (or whatever thing they are trying to promote in your esteem) It is quite normal for a five year old to do this on the fly, but for an “adult” to do it is pathological. Even the five year old doesn’t believe it himself, but still gets some enjoyment out of telling it, imagining it, I imagine the psychopaths get some enjoyment out of making you think they are so “wonderful” and sort of believe it about themselves.
I also think that the need to feel superior is OK with them as long as it is “believed” even if it is not “technically true”—the fake “navy seals” are examples of this to me. As long as YOU believe they were “navy seals” they tell themselves they could have been navy seals if they had the opportunity….of course because they (they tell themselves) didn’t have the opportunity, it isn’t their fault. LOL
I may be wrong, and it may only be some of them, but it seems to me that many of them while feeling “low self esteem” build this personna, and yet, at the same time, they feel special and entitled at the SAME TIME…sort of conflicting emotions about what they are. Kind of a “catch 22.”
Ox Drover…..When I read your post about the lies I just become heart sick….Because that is exactly how my son lies. And it is as if he has mastered this in a VERY short period of time.
It was in fact the very first troubling thing I noticed when I saw these troubling personality traits when my son was about 15 years old. He would lie and it could be an “over the top”
kind of lie. It would be the kind of lie that is an insult to your intelligence, and he not only EXPECTED me to believe him but became very angry when I didn’t. And I would SWEAR up and down that he believed his own lies. As absurd as they might be.
These lies were actually the begining of many more troubling traits that my son displayed when I first became aware that he wasn’t just going through normal puberty.
Because these lies were so constant/consistent I was usually tried to pick my battles as you do with any teenager and yet the DEGREE of the lying was very troubling to me. More troubling was the way he delivered them. As if they were the truth ABSOLUTELY and how dare you not believe HIM.
If he lied and there was a consequence extended the punishment would not only make him angry but he actually would appear to be almost blind sided by it. As if the punishment was REALITY but the lie never happened. So no “lesson learned” was ever accomplished in a punishment. Just anger.
Another troubling thing I have seen if my son is caught red handed in a lie is just NO RESPONSE at all. As if it NEVER HAPPENED….The false reality….
There is no way to confront him about a lie or troubling behaviour as he doesn’t own it…..And I’m not talking about admittance here….Lots of teenagers won’t admit they did something wrong……
This is where words don’t do justice on trying to describe…..
It is hard to confront because in HIS reality it never happened….So I am confronting him on something that NEVER happened.
I know that manipulation is also involved in here. Often it is hard to tell where the lies ends and the manipulation begins.
These things are just some of the things that don’t just “fit” right with what else I see…..
I don’t have to be a doctor to know that my son is depressed. That is pretty obvious.
The lies and manipulation and lack of reality and all of the rest, I’m not sure what all that means.
And how a parent sets boundaries when every confrontation of boundaries crossed/house rules broken turns into a nightmare and goes nowhere? Its kind of an impossible situation…..
Still waiting for the call…..