Editor’s note: A Lovefraud reader, we’ll call him Allen, tells his story of being the child of an undiagnosed sociopath.
I know the story starts way before my time with my dad, so I can only tell you what I saw growing up and what I now see in hindsight.
I think the biggest thing that I see in him is that he takes no personal responsibility for anything. Somewhere in his late 20’s he “found God” — whatever that really means to him — and it was right around the time that my mom finally left him because of physical abuse that he denies to this day. He says that he never laid a hand on her and then when I remind him that I was there that day and saw everything he still denies it. He claims that pushing her over a couch and through a screen door isn’t laying a hand on her.
That day, the day they split up, I spent the rest of the weekend with my dad, where he kept saying how little my mom must have loved me, since she left you with “such a monster.” At nine, I believed him and spent the next year of my life making my mom’s life a living hell. I would torment her, asking her why she was leaving dad and how she must be evil to not love him. A thin mixture of religion over a solid base of fear led me to believe that my dad was the only one I could trust.
My mom was a teacher at the Christian school that I attended and my mom was condemned for leaving my dad by the church, mostly because my dad was playing the victim and smearing my mom as unforgiving and bitter. He claimed she just left him for no reason. Especially when he was friends with most of the pastors at the church. He would go for “counseling” with them. He would read every religious book he could find. He even ended up in the psych ward over Christmas that year. He really made my mom look evil. I was 30 when I finally saw what he did to her. And I and everyone else bought it up to that point. I eye-witnessed it and I still bought it.
In an effort to “re-unite” our family, my mom was told by the church to either reunite with my dad or find a new job. She found a new job. Ironically, her good friend from her childhood taught with her at that same school. Her husband beat the crap out of her the next year, and she had him arrested and he wasn’t as manipulative as my dad. She still works at that same school. It protected her.
Living with dad
This all happened my third grade year. The following year I continued to live with my mom meanwhile going to my father’s every single weekend, and getting my head filled with everything bad my mom had ever done. Every skeleton. I “tormented” her regularly, but I thought I was doing what God wanted me to do, which was remind my mom what God says she should do — at least according to what my dad told me. I knew that God hated sin, and divorce was a sin, and my mom was divorcing my dad on purpose, therefore I thought I was doing what was right. Finally my mom had enough and she let me go live with my dad my fifth grade year. The divorce was done somewhere between June to August, and by September I was his best man in his next marriage.
I moved in with him in July, and that’s when he started beating the crap out of me when I would do stuff he didn’t like and that continues to this very day. I had to call the police on him this past weekend because he spit on me as I walked to my car, ran up and threw me up against the wall and cocked his fist to punch me when I told him he never took responsibility for anything, especially getting real help for his abuse, which he denied when the police arrived and said I came over to pick a fight with him. My brother even told me I should expect to mauled when I throw stones at a bear.
The marriage with his second wife was a disaster of biblical proportions. I had a stepsister my age and a stepbrother my brother’s age — five years younger than me. I was the only one that kept saying they shouldn’t be married and that he was being a bad father, which brought me more and more abuse. I even protested at his wedding, so he told everyone that I had psychological problems. Turns out I was just exhausted trying to have a conscience for two.
He was a doctor. He would buy cars, tv’s, all kinds of stuff and then lie to his wife about it and make me promise not to tell her about it either. When I would say it was a bad idea, I would be told either I was too young to understand or beat up, so I played along. They split up, of course because of us kids not getting along. He forgets that I spent two years locked in my room avoiding everyone that I could from our family. Not sure the fights I started, but I believed him. We, my stepsiblings and I, had to lie about how my stepmom got a black eye one time. A family football injury. Unbelieveable.
Difficult to love
My dad and I moved into a cottage at a Christian community that was a few miles outside of town. We lived there until I graduated from high school. At the time I really defended my dad, believing that he WAS the victim in all this and that if my mom hadn’t left him, none of this would have happened. This made me hate her more. And he kept beating me up too. Said I was “difficult to love”. Same thing he said this weekend — funny. I would go to school with bruises and a swollen nose, fat lips all the time. That’s when I had to lie to the police and tell them nothing was wrong. My mom even got emergency custody of me and tried to have me put in a school for troubled kids. I saw it as evil since I saw her as evil and not able to be trusted. I lied my way out of that school interview. I made it look like she was crazy and that she just had a problem with my dad and was trying to get back at him. She gave me a choice: the Detention Home or a Runaway Shelter.
I chose the runaway shelter. But when they notified the custodial parent, as my mom only had temporary emergency custody, he came and picked me up at 5 a.m. This really made her look evil and him like the rescuer! “Look! Your mom dumped you off again!” I went into school the next day and had a total and complete breakdown. I told them what happened the night before and coupled with what they knew was going on at home, they excused me from school for the last two weeks. They knew I would never turn on my dad because my only other option was the DH and everyone knew that wasn’t going to help. I even spent a couple of weeks in the psych ward as I was suicidal a few months previous. They even passed me as I was failing about everything in class. It was all because I wasn’t adjusting well to my dad’s new marriage. That may be, but I think that I never should have been there. I should have been protected by my parent, not stepped on to get what he wanted. But maybe that’s just me.
High school
High school went by because I found really good friends. My dad was trying to get back with my stepmom from eighth grade to twelfth grade so I was home a lot on the weekends by myself. Yeah. We partied. They still talk about how many parties I threw in high school. I would make remarks about my dad’s choices and how little I thought of him and his marriage, his wife, whatever. They were “disrespectful” and were always met with a fist fight. I got in a couple of good licks and they got further apart.
After every single fight, he would tell me that God still loved him and that I should forgive him. Truth is, I didn’t have any other place to live, so I tolerated him and his abuse. And sometimes his irresponsibility made him really fun. New cars and things like that made my place fun to live at. He even bough me a car at 15 and let me drive it around without a license just so he didn’t have to be bothered with having to take me places. That made me about the coolest person there was to my friends! I was pretty responsible and didn’t get into any trouble worth mentioning. I was actually one of only two people in my “circle of friends” to make it through school without any police incursions.
I went into the Navy when I graduated as I had a less than 2.0 GPA. It was very good for me. I was in two years and hurt my leg and was discharged. I got married to a woman EXACTLY like my dad. More on that in a bit. During that time my dad and his second wife got back together for about a year. And I was split up with my wife and moved back in for a short time with them. I got back with my wife and they split up a year later because my dad was cheating on her with someone that was going to become his next wife. But don’t say goodbye to wife #2 quite yet. She makes an encore later. I blamed my stepmom for taking all my dad’s stuff because she was “just a gold-digger!” I completely missed the point that he was getting this as consequences to his actions! But hearing him, it was all her fault again. She drove him to cheat. At this point I’m 23 or 24.
My wife was the same
My eyes were finally opened with my wife. Nothing was ever her fault. Perpetual victim. That’s when I discovered patterns! I started seeing things she did to my daughter that my dad did to me. Manipulation of the truth, telling parts of the story, lying, cheating and stealing. But it was never her fault either. She and I would get into a fight and she would wake up our daughter in the middle of the night and take her to her mom’s and say things like “Your dad is throwing us out.” Little stuff like that, when nothing was further from the truth. And her mom hated me! Rightfully so: throwing her and her grand daughter out like that. The only problem is, she never even asked my side. That’s when it hit me that I was her mom when it came to my dad.
Read more: For children of sociopaths
She was always defending her daughter, like I did to my dad. She was always the victim, just like my dad. It was never her fault I was mad (even though she was charging $10k on credit cards in three months). I was the one that was being unreasonable! It finally hit me after 12 years of marriage and a tumor that these two people were identical: Sociopaths!
Beat us with the Bible
At 27 or 28 I finally saw what was going on. My dad was on wife #3, a total and complete psycho. And he was making it worse because he intimidated her too. And bought $120k RV’s, $5k banjos — you name it. Never EVER telling her first. “Screw her, it’s my money!” I wish I had a dollar for every time I heard that saying. My mom, my step-mom(s), even me when I confronted him. He would snap and start attacking us as though we had the problem. First he would puff up and yell. If that didn’t scare us away, he would beat us with the Bible: saying that we shouldn’t judge and how we just didn’t understand “Grace” the way he did and that if God forgives him so should we. If we still didn’t run away he would start dismantling our character with every kind of attack known to man: our character, our lives, my kids, my wife, my relationships, my religion, my work, my work ethic, my friends, my salvation — everything. All peppered with vulgarities and personal attacks. I always blew it off because some of what he said WAS true and I bought into the speck in his eye and the plank in mine, like he was always reminding us of.
Sexual harassment
He really talked the talk, but never walked the walk. And that is what ALWAYS, ALWAYS bothered me. Even in childhood. Always do what the Bible says, unless you are me. It wasn’t until he was sued for sexual harassment that I knew he had a real problem. Having been in the Navy, I was trained almost monthly on sexual harassment. You say “Red Light” to anyone that was in the service in my time and they will laugh. They know exactly what that means. So I told my dad that what he was doing with one of the girls in his staff was beyond a shadow of a doubt sexual harassment. Five times I warned him and said, “Look! You have got to stop! You are going to get sued!” To which he replied “Mind your own business. I’m 58 years old and I’m not going to let you know-it-all tell me how to run my life. Beside, what the hell do you know? I’m a doctor! What the hell are you?”
Let’s just say I didn’t know everything else he was doing to her until the lawsuit was filed. I was shocked this married “Christian” man was telling me he was doing nothing wrong and yet he was still getting sued, even after I warned him about it! He told me “I wasn’t going to tell you but ____ is suing me. That bitch! What the heck is and everyone else gonna think? Their gonna think I did it!” I said, “You did!” He told me not to come around him anymore if I was going to be talking like that. So I shut up for a while.
Wife #3 went crazier. Now I realize that being with a person that thinks and acts like he does will drive a normal person crazy! I thought it was her until a I saw what living with my ex-wife did to me! Months of cover-ups and bashing the character of the sue-er, he narrowly convinced her not to divorce him then, claiming he, again, was the victim
Anger management
Then he punched wife #3 about a year ago and she had his butt arrested. He pleaded “no contest” and had to go to anger management counseling. The next week, after he had to move out, he bought a BMW 740IL and told me, “Now everyone is going to know that no lying b*tch is going to keep me down. I’m still on top.” He swears to this day “he never laid a hand on her.” I asked him if it was the same hand he didn’t lay on mom to which he points out how bitter and unforgiving I am and that he is praying for me to “get better.” She filed for divorce a few weeks later but he didn’t care. Wife #2, who is inarguably more attractive than wife #3, wanted him back. She couldn’t believe all that he had endured and come through. Truth is she just wants security and to not be alone I think.
When I tried to have him arrested this weekend it was me that had the problem again. He lied to police and said he didn’t lay a hand on me and that I, in fact was the one that picked a fight with him. He lied to family, the few that believe him, that I did come over “looking for trouble.” I have for the last year tried to stay away from him but keep getting my conscience turned against me by him because a child should forgive his parent. I shouldn’t be bitter. But he lures you in with a believable “I really am sorry” and a plausible story that it really IS your problem. And he is quick to point that out to everyone I or any of his victims know that he runs into.
And trying to get him help is impossible: He would argue theology with Jesus, and could intimidate Ah-nold. He has walked out of more counselors because they were trying put him “under the law.” Religion is a wall he uses to trap his victims within reach. Anytime they start to get away he reminds them of their obligation to forgive and they come back. It’s like a religious tether. It’s the same tactic my ex-wife (also claimed to be “Christian/religious”) used: bragging she knew she could do anything she wanted because she knew that I would never divorce her because my religious beliefs were too strong. I’m pretty sure that’s not what God teachs.
How should I deal?
There is my story — I’m the child of an undiagnosed sociopath. Use it for whatever you want. Even to convict me if I really do have a problem like he and my ex says. They say I make everyone miserable. My girlfriend tells me it’s them (but she’s a LITTLE partial!) and that if they walked what they talked, it would not be an issue. I just make them feel accountable because I question their actions to their faces, while everyone else talks behind their back. This is uncomfortable for them, thus bringing on their own misery because someone see through their facade, so their slander and character assassination starts on me and their true colors come out.
I would love to know, however, how I should deal with him? Should I stay away? Or should I forgive and always keep him at arms length? What about my daughter and him? He tells her all kinds of things too about me that aren’t anywhere near true. And she is starting to behave just like her mom and grandpa.
Learn more: How abusive parents affect you and how you can recover
Lovefraud originally posted this article on February 6, 2009.
Muldoon: Take heart. Teenage girls, especially at 12, 13, 14, can be really, really awful. And they take it out on their mothers. This may pass.
I know several girls who were absolute hellions who have settled into being much more reasonable, responsible, and even kind. Don’t give up.
Muldoon:
YOu mention your daughter was a happy child. Based on what S told me, he was deliberately cruel, even as a 6 year old to his siblings.
Your kid is 13. Throw in the crazy situation between you and your S, it could be she’s acting out. I remember much earlier how you said your daughter realizes what a crock of shit your S was feeding her and wants nothing to do with him.
Are you right to be concerned? Yes. That said, I think you have an awful lot of evidence that points in the opposite direction to what you’ve got — a snot-nosed teenager.
Dear Muldoon,
I raised a psychopath, a killer one, literally and h e didn’t start REALLY acting out until puberty.
BUT…the thing is that a great many kids ACT out at puberty who are NOT psychopaths. Keep in mind she has been living in a household that was INSANE with your X there, so she could not help but have some “issues”—even a kid from a “nice” home with two parents who love her and set proper boundaries and so on has “hormonal” problems at that age, so don’t “label” her yet.
I strongly suggest however that you get her some PROFESSIONAL COUNSELING. She needs that to assess her situation. If she were “completely normal” in this situation something would be wrong! If you think YOUR life with this monster has been HELL, can you even imagine what HER life must have been seeing and hearing all this abuse going on.
TAKE HEART, she probably indeed does have some “problems” but it could be ones that having him out of the house and some counseling might take care of.
That’s the thing with these monsters, not only does he hurt YOU, but he hurts his kids too. Try as hard as you can not to get cross ways with her, and assure her that you love her and know she has been hurting through all this mess too, and that you are going to get her and you and your other children some counseling so you can live a better and more sane life without him there to hurt you all any more. Hang in there, Muldoon, you are doing a great job!!!! ((((hugs)))))
Muldoon, Glad you are keeping in touch. About the teenage daughter, boy can I relate. I have finally reconcilled with my daughter after almost 15 years of gingerly barely there relationship, and we find ourselves both struggling to survive and heal from a P. It took me until now to realize that her dad was a P.
Think about it. Your daughter is struggling with the relationship with her parents, and the animosity they have for each other. Whatever she does not like about either one, is being reflected back to her. It is an impossible situation, especially at that age.
i put my duahgter through a “merged” family at 13, thinking I was giving her the earth. I subjected her to a teenaged hell, despite the nice shiny package. Have patience, and see your self in her. I know that in my relationship with my duaghter it was the “mirroring” of each parent into the fabric of her life that was an unfair burden to her.
All she tried to do was love us both and get by. I ended up stepping back and giving her dad lots of leeway, which he abused in many ways. I fugured eventually she would see which one of us was real.
It took 17 years and two children on her part, a broken marriage and trying to survive, to see that I was an okay mom.
Oxy has the best advice on this very fine line. Of when being supoortive and fair, becomes being enabling, when we are being our lovingand open selves, and when we risk losing our boundaries, and being doormats.
Just remember, right now you are the only rational parent she has.
Peace and love,
Elizabeth Conley: My daughter is 13 and my wife has exclusive custody of her. She moved her 100 miles away to live with a man she met on the Internet and dated only 6 weeks. Now she has no intention of getting back with me, my visitation went from everyday after school (when she wanted to keep using me as a place to live in my new house) to I should be avoided at all costs (now she has someone easier to use.) My daughters relationship with me was shaky to begin with (my wife told her I was throwing her out as I said before, pulled her into fights more times than I could count…literally, and told her I loved our foster child at the time more than loved her) so I have not pressed visitation. Like my mom, I think not squeezing my daughter between her mom and I is the best solution. I would rather just back away. I havent had one-on-one visitation in 6 months.
Kathleen Hawk: I have been dad-free for about 3 months and my perspective is changing every day.
He and my ex have joined forces to smear me now that I no longer accept either one of their behaviours. I asked my ex to keep my daughter away from him, which is what she wanted during the marriage. I also asked him to buy her a Christmas present that has value long term, and not a bunch of junk, like a savings bond for college as my daughter has discovered that using people (especially grandparents) is easy and that it gets her what she wants. She also realized that I am the only one that has a problem with it and that instead of looking at the bad behaviour and changing it, it’s easier to avoid me and find people that accept the behaviour.
My ex and my dad then told my daughter I was just trying to ruin her Christmas (she told my daughter this with me on speakerphone) that my daughter was also an abuse victim because I confront bad behaviour when it happens and that I refuse to spank her (like they do) and instead have her do pushups or jumping jacks.
My dad then spent a ton of money on me for Christmas, despite my request and my mothers compaince with the same request where he gave me a “heart-felt appology” in a card and said he was sorry for the misunderstanding (me calling the police on him a few weeks previous)…knowing that if I said anything at the Christmas Dinner I would appear, as he said, unforgiving and bitter. On his way out the door (to go behind my back and give my daughter all the gifts I asked him not to) he gave me a hug and said he was really sorry and how much he loves and respects me. I really felt guilty…but jsut a few minutes later the truth came out.
He also gave my girlfriend and her kids a ton of gifts too. My g/f said, “Wow! Was your dad trying to buy us off or what? And what was up with that fake Hallmark Moment at the door? And why is your daughter going to YOUR dads right after this? Take mine and the kids stuff back to him. I dont feel right taking it.”
I had my confirmation it was all just for show! I went downstairs and told all the remaining family (his brothers) what just transpired and they were not surprised. They thanked me for not making a scene and confirmed I should take the stuff back. So I did. On my way over to his house I saw my ex leaving his driveway. I asked her what she was doing there when I specificly asked her not to. She said “you didnt tell me not to go to your dads, you told me I shouldnt. And why? Just so you can ruin your daughters Christmas?” to which I heard “Yeah Dad! Don’t you want me to be happy? Don’t you love me?” Dont you want me to have nice stuff?”
I shook my head and drove up to his house. He was in his garage and told him “I’m not for sale. You can keep your bribes and your fake appologies. I wont accept your behaviour and you just proved to me just how much of a lying manipulator you really are. And stay the hell away from my daughter.” I haven’t spoken with him since.
On the bright side, it has made other people in my family come forward and say I always thought there was something wrong with your dad and seeing how he is behaving towards you has proven it. I have gotten immense support from them as I am telling them that in my unqualified opinion he has no conscience. They agree.
OxDrover: Reading every article on this website is what helped me figure out what they were: without conscience!
I also did get counseling and after about 10 conventional sessions my counselor (who is also my dads counselor) suggested I do some sessions of EMDR, which I feel helped me put a lot of this together. I did it about 5 times and every single time, within 3 days, I had huge and monumental changes in perspective. Things that never made sense all of the sudden came to stunning clarity.
My mom and I have never been closer. She is so glad to know I finally see things for what they were. My dad says we’re ganging up on him and that she is liar and she is brain washing me. Unreal huh? She said all she did was pray…every day for 25 years. She knew it would happen someday. She’s just glad she is still alive to see it. It’s what I am doing and hoping for with my daughter.
JaneSmith: Thanks. I now know that it isnt my fault. He/she is just so good at convincing that people they are the true victims and NEVER take responsibility for everything. They usually tell me Im the one with the problem. THen they tell everyone I know. Everything you say is so true and so very apparent now. Everything.
Puzzle: I really feel nothing but sympathy now for him. I realized everything…even his religion is fake. It was jsut another weapon to manipulate. Christians are asy targets: they have to forgive otherwise you can convince them they arent Christians at all. I always felt so guilty for wanting to stay away because I didnt want to be bitter and unforgiving. It is what the Bible says after all! But there is no repentance with them…no remorse or desire to change. They only know how guilt should change your actions not how it should change theirs.
He joked that he should marry her to get all of his money back. Yeah. He makes $200k+ a year so he does very well.
Yeah. And everyone I went to talk to (counselors growing up) were told by him before talking to me that I was a difficult child, wouldnt listen, showed no respect and just was causing trouble. What counselor would doubt him? He looked so good on the surface. And when I told them how he beat me, it was because “I would attack him” and “he was defending himself.” It wasnt until my friends witnessed it that that flew out the window but that wasnt until 8th grade. 3 years of hell till that point.
And all that just to marry another one and watch my daughter become one too. It just makes me sick. But I wouldnt be here if I hadnt gone through it. Thank God. It sucked, but here I am, better for having gone through it. It’s feels & reminds me a lot like bootcamp.
Sorry to post this all at once. I was out of town this weekend and didnt find out this was posted until 10 mintues before I left town Friday.
Thanks again for all the suggestions. I feel so much better knowing Im not crazy or being bitter. It’s a real recharge for my soul.
Allen: Work on getting yourself strong, and nurture your heart. If this is making sense to your head, that really helps, but I find that the heart and the body (gut feel) also have to come to terms with the truth.
You may have to wait on the sidelines for a bit. It sounds like your daughter is being trained to use people, but she isn’t old enough yet that this has to be a permanent life pattern.
If you are healed and healthy in your heart and soul, you can be there for your daughter. And she may come to you. We never know what the next turn in the road may reveal. Your ex-wife may self-destruct in ways you don’t know and can’t engineer. So work on yourself so you can then be strong to handle whatever else comes along.
Glad to have you here as another person who has come to see the truth. Sorry it took you such pain to find your way hear, but you know you’re among friends.
Dear Allen,
Thank you for that reply to all our questions and comments. I also have a psychopathic father, and an enabling toxic mother, as wel as I have a psychopathic son who is in prison for murder—I am so glad you and your mother have reconciled.
My mother twisted “forgiveness” to mean “let’s pretend it didn’t happen” to forget reality. I finally realized that “forgiveness” is NOT about pretense, but about getting the bitterness for what they have done out of your own heart, but it doesn’t mean to pretend it didn’t happen, or to LET THEM HAVE ANOTHER CHANCE.
She also tried to convince me that “respect/honor your father and mother” meant that you had to never defy them in any way. However, I have come to see that by becoming the TYPE OF PERSON who would bring honor onto a parent I am “honoring” her, whether she deserves it or not. And, frankly, she does NOT deserve it any more than your father does.
My mother also tried to BUY me and when that didn’t work, she bought my X-DIL and another Psychopath, who betrayed her and stole from her.
I realize it must be frustrating to have your daughter use the same manipulative techniques that your x and your father use, and I hope and pray that is just teenaged dysfunction and that she will “grow out of it” but your take on how to handle it is, I think, as good a choice as you have in the matter.
When I “gave up” and went NC and “they” no longer had a common enemy to fight (me) they self destructed and fought among themselves, so hopefully when your X doesn’t get a rise out of you and your father doesn’t get a rise out of you they will all self destruct.
It took me a long time to realize that NC was even a choice with “family” but it is the ONLY choice with ANYONE who is toxic in my opinion. I am NC with my mom and my P son and it is the ONLY way I can keep from getting new and fresh injuries and have peace and calm. Just turn it over to God and let Him deal with them. Tell your mother I said she is a wise woman, and I am thankful too that she lived long enoughto reconcile with you! I DO know how wonderful that is after nearly a decade at a distance from my son C.
Allen, I learned this truth about “them”.
Tis better not to tell an a$$h@le they are an a$$h@le. Why? Cause they are an a$$h@le.
That’s my truth and I’m sticking with it.
Peace and smile, it’s contagious.
That’s funny Wini!
Dear Allen,
My heart goes out to you. Your situation with your child has to be heartbreaking. Still, I think you have the answer in your mother’s love.
“My mom and I have never been closer. She is so glad to know I finally see things for what they were. My dad says we’re ganging up on him and that she is liar and she is brain washing me. Unreal huh? She said all she did was pray”every day for 25 years. She knew it would happen someday. She’s just glad she is still alive to see it. It’s what I am doing and hoping for with my daughter.”
You and your mother are on the right track. Your situation may resolve sooner than you think. It isn’t unusual for kids to bounce back and forth between parents in their teens. Things will get rough with her mother, and she’ll run to you. Then she’ll realize you’re not a doormat, so she’ll run back to her mother. The silver lining is, your ex wife probably doesn’t have what it takes to consistently offer a stable home. Your daughter may end up “stuck” with you, which would be hard going for you both, but potentially productive. This scenario plays out a lot.
See if you can get a relatively long visit with your daughter. Say, two months out of the summer. I’ve seen cluster B parents eventually choose to farm out their children to the hated ex spouse, only to have the kids refuse to return. You don’t have to spoil your daughter to achieve this. Quite the opposite. I’ve got a nephew who prefers his firm father to his cluster B mother, even though Dad makes him work very hard in school. The kid is smart enough to know Dad’s way will net him a better life.
I know your daughter seems like a brat now, but she could very well turn out to be a sensible young lady. You turned out pretty well!