In February 1999, my sociopathic ex-husband, James Montgomery, was finished with me. I had no more money, no more credit and no more earning capacity, because my business was ruined. So Montgomery arranged for me to find out that he’d had a child with another woman during our marriage. With this, I left, as I’m sure he expected.
Oh, he made a few attempts to reel me back in. “It’s not what you think,” he said. “Let me explain.” I didn’t. I kept driving.
I never saw him again. And now, after hearing so many of your stories about the sociopaths who won’t go away, I realize how lucky I was. I didn’t have a child with him. I didn’t have to attempt to co-parent with a sociopath, while the sociopath tried to turn the children against me.
My heart breaks for all of you in this unwinnable situation, stuck between a rock and a hard place.
Not long ago, I heard from a woman who is in this position. We’ll call her “Marsha.” Marsha was married for 16 years to a guy who she now knows is a sociopath. They’ve been divorced for two years. They have five kids—two teenagers, three younger. Her ex has regular visitation times when he’s supposed to pick up the kids, although he hasn’t shown up for his Saturday afternoon time in months.
Marsha sometimes sees her ex at events for the kids, which is uncomfortable for her. She writes:
The last one was particularly upsetting for me, as he came over to my mom and gave her a hug, asked her how she was, and appeared to be very moved to see her. I know it is all bs, but the cognitive dissonance it creates…
How should I “be” around my ex? Do I speak in a friendly tone, similar to the way he is speaking to me, do I keep everything monotone, do I try to avoid speaking to him altogether, or is there some other option?
I don’t know how to advise Marsha. So, Lovefraud readers, especially those of you who are coping with similar situations, what do you suggest?
How do I cope? I’m not around the psycho. Ever! Period.
In the particular case of the monster in my life, he uses every opportunity to benefit from it, to create drama and to manipulate the situation into something it is not. I have moved 1,000 miles away but recently found out that even that and 11 years after the divorce isn’t enough for this bastard.
It is very difficult to manage when there are kids involved, but I think she should say only “Hi” and “By” when around him and not try to play his hypocrite games. In my case I just stop the talking all together not even “hi” or “by”, but we have no kids and nothing to connect us anymore. They’re “chameleons” they work hard to hide their true persona, and look good. She just needs to be herself.
I would recommend putting on a “mask” around your ex at all times in front of the kids–be courteous but slightly distant; do not discuss the children at all; limit conversation to a minimum. Do not frown or make a face; just have a neutral expression of slight smile if possible, for your kid’s sake.
As for how to act when your ex does a show of B.S. in front of your mom, children and/or friends? Well, in front of the children, follow the advice above. They will know the truth in their own way. But for now courtesy and distance is most prudent IMHO.
As for your mother, does your mother not know the history? Is she not your ally? If not, then she needs to be judiciously educated in what happened and why your ex is not to be trusted, hugged, or engaged with. Work on your mom, and once she has become more ally, ask her to treat your ex the same way you treat your ex. She should not allow him to kiss and/or hug her in any way. If he tries to coerce her or you into hugging….well, you both need to be prepared in a neutral way and make that impossible.
As for your close friends, follow the same advice as for your mom. They need to know enough about the situation to be your allies.
As for friends of friends and the wider community, it’s best to be distant and polite in front of this group. It is unrealistic for them to be your close allies, and best just to be a neutral as possible in a social setting. Good luck.
These principles have worked for me for 8 years. Even if I am angry I do not show it in public and I do not show it to my ex as it “feeds the beast.” I handle my anger with my ex by talking it out with my allies or with myself.
My child knows that her father is “not quite right” in some ways, but she is able to have a relationship with him that is at least superficially rewarding for her. When he tries to put her in the middle of a fight by canceling appointments, threatening to move, I shift into neutral and tell him to go ahead and cancel, or go ahead and move, it’s fine. It never outwardly bothers me when he cancels. Sometimes I’m steamed, but I blow off the steam on my own.
Over time I feel my time with my child has become mroe and more precious and I truly don’t care any more whether my ex cancels as he often does. It is a small price to pay for more time with my child
Maybe I’ve been fortunate, but I also know that by avoiding any verbal fights with my ex in recent years it has helped me to move on emotionally and has forced him to look for others to tangle with. Anyway, I hope this is helpful.
I think this is an extremely important question, because it could mean the difference between REALLY being able to let go and being manipulated for the rest of your life!
I was fortunate. MUCH TO HIS DISPAIR, I couldn’t have any more kids when he met, and even though we lived together we never got married. So when I threw him out there were no significant ties left to bind us together.
Needless to say, he tried to find every reason to keep us connected. We were working on a project together for my job, so I couldn’t get out of that, but what I did IMMEDIATELY was speak with my boss and our partners, warn them about the type of person he was, and insisted that they would have to be his contacts until the project was over. I also fixed it so that he could no longer contact me. He was livid, but since he wanted to finish the project and get paid, he had no chocie.
I was tempted on a few occassions to respond to a few attempts by him to connect, (after he read my book at http://www.liarcheater.com but I was able to resist without slipping up, not even once, and that pretty much forced him to go away completely.
Because these monsters are so manipulative, I would suggest that you be as neutral as you can with them. Keep in mind that EVERYTHING about him/her is a lie. Be suspicious of EVERYTHING they say. Don’ fall for ANY of it! If you have kids together, you would have to communicate at some point, but do not engage in any long conversations. Be direct and to the point, and do not let on that you are moved by anything he tells you.
For those of you who believe in the power of prayer, I’d also suggest that you ask God to help you discern the difference between a lie and the truth, not just with your ex but with people you come in contact every day. Trust me, it works!! After I started to pray, every lie he ever told me was revealed!
I have two sons, the youngest (4) with my ex sociopath. For most of the past three years, I tried to be myself…kind, pleasant, friendly. And, for most of the past three years, I’ve had trouble letting go of the PTSD and frequently found myself angry with myself as I felt I kept setting myself up for more manipulation. Or, even worse, that he was using my good character to allow him to manipulate our son’s perceptions of him and our relationship.
For the past three months, I have not spoke with him directly. My very large (6′, 230lb) 16 year old son answers the door to receive his brother and doesn’t allow the S into our home. He believes the S uses his little brother to gain access to me, so it was his idea for him to field the exchanges. He’s grown quite protective and has a knack for seeing his ex-step-father for what he is.
Since I have stopped speaking with the S directly, all necessary correspondence takes place via email or text, I have felt much more calm and safe. However, my S hasn’t appreciated the change and has managed to create a scenario in which not speaking to him is not an option. He has put our son in physical danger by leaving him in the car unattended, attempted to manipulate me by sending me falsified drug tests (he’s been ordered to monthly, random, tests but the court doesn’t follow up) and showing our son violent PG-13 movies, the most recent of which the move 9; hich I discovered when my recently turned 4 son had some interesting perceptions and questions to share about death.
Since none of the above is acceptable but engaging him directly would only reinforce his control of the situation and desired outcome, I opted to get my attorney involved. So, off we go to court, again! I’ll keep you posted.
All this being said, with a Sociopath, always expect to give up something to gain something. It’s up to you, and certainly what you think will have the best outcome for your kids, that determines the optimal approach to take when dealing with the S. There is no ideal way to deal with Sociopaths as it pertains to kids. Just be sure to do as little as possible in their favor, while still maintaining what you need to for yourself and your kids.
Good luck! It’s a hard balance to find and maintain.
Namaste,
Duped
I have three children with my ex-P. She was fully aware of my love for and dedication to my children and that I would do anything to keep them out of our differences. I even took a licking financially in our divorce to avoid a hearing and keep the kids out of it.
During our separation and for a short while post-divorce she’d convince me to do things I didn’t wish to do, “for the sake of the children”, such has hugging her goodbye when we said goodbye in front of the children. The manipulation technique of “for the sake of the children” was always used to keep me hooked in, and she still attempts this. When I broke free it entailed strongly establishing and enforcing personal boundaries. These people do not recognize nor respect any types of boundaries. She didn’t like this, and to this day still doesn’t.
She moved far away for a man, sought custody and lost to the extent that my children live primarily with me (still joint custody) and she has very liberal visitation, flying in to see the children or them flying to see her almost twice monthly on average, and they spend summers with her. So, she continues to be very much involved, but not so much with regards to doing the daily grind of homework, shuttling to sports and activities, disciplining, etc. My wife and I do all the real work. She is truly the Disneyland Mom, extremely overindulgent and not enforcing rules or discipline. They lay around all summer at her home with custom pool, playhouse and sport court, playing videogames and eating anything they wish from the kitchen all day long. No rules, little supervision. This creates huge issues and conflict when the children are returned to me and my wife.
She has convinced everyone, except those who know better, that I am angry and hostile and didn’t agree to move with her because I don’t wish to be controlled by her. Duh!!! Maybe I was just tired of moving for her career, we are now divorced so why would I move again? Why is that so bad when dealing with a manipulative, sociopathic ex? Those of us involved with P’s need a clean break and have the right to demand it.
Since we have kids, we have to interact. I try to keep communication limited to written emails and text and document everything. She plays games continuously when it comes to the kids’ exchange times, dates and place and kids’ financial issues. I stay in the house when she picks up and drops off the kids, NO CONTACT. However, being that she visits frequently, we cross paths at sporting and other events. I will acknowledge her and allow interaction limited to children’s issues, schedules, etc. that are pertinent while she is in town and with the kids. But, I will not engage in “conversation”. That’s the set up, to manipulate and get you to commit to something you are not comfortable with, because they know they can manipulate us if given the opportunity. My line” “I’ll think about it and get back to you”, then follow up in writing. Still, best bet is not to converse.
She puts on a huge act of charm, affection when anyone sees her with the children. Again, over the top and an act for others to see. It is all about appearances for these P’s, keeping the façade up.
Advice ”“ except when he is present, all communication in writing. When he is present, keep a game face on, don’t look angry or perturbed, they feed on that. Ignore as much as possible, and limit any dialogue. Otherwise, stick to the No Contact rule.
Duped:
I just read your post and your situation sounds just like mine. I’ve had to go a step further and actually stop contact with my own children. I have one with me now but there’s no contact with the other one. Still, he manages to manipulate the situation to death. We’re back in court for the third time. Lawyers and all, it’s not looking any better than the first time. BTW, giving up stuff has got me into more of a mess. Seems like the more I give, the more he wants. In my particular case, I’ve always found it better to corner him, only when his back is against the wall, does he seem amenable to negotiate.
Will the torture ever end?
Duped, I totally agree with the following statement that you made.
“All this being said, with a Sociopath, always expect to give up something to gain something.” They always have to have something. Lately, I’m in a ZERO TOLERANCE zone when it comes to negotiating, though. I like it here; think maybe I’ll stay here for awhile.
The ONLY conversation I have with my ex is, when only absolutely necessary, by text when it concerns our son.
I learned the hard way, after he first left, that if I let my anger, irritation or anything close to those show, he got off on that. NOPE, I said to myself, that’s just more power for him.
I changed that to a complete monotone voice. Now, it’s down to just texts and even those have faded lately because my son is coming out and saying he just doesn’t want to spend time with his dad. This is his safety zone and the more comfortable he is here, the less he wants to be around him. He’s also coming out with some things I never knew before; when he was just 4(can’t believe he remembers this so clearly!), his father took him to a drug house and LEFT HIM ALONE for several minutes while he went in to get his stuff. He also had a habit of watching porno and my son saw this on more than one occasion. He would always flip the channel, but who would have that on with a child in the house in the first place? Idiot.
I am now going to go for supervised visitation because I know him and he will push for visitation. Well, won’t he be surprised!!!
AKABob, Mine pulled the same thing for a long time. Insisting on hugging me in front of our son, trying to get me to do just about anything “for the sake of our son”. It was his favorite game; his way to get what he wanted. You’re right, it’s just a game. As long as WE know that, they can’t play it!
Quantum,
It will end, honey. Promise! I had some bad days and wondered the same thing, but I truly believe what we deal with today will help us heal tomorrow(Thank you, Kathleen!)
Good topic! Hugs to all!
Cat
I try not to “give” at all. I have it in my mind that if I concede on something, I’ll get something in return. Sometimes you just have to to get something you really want or need in return. The reality is nothing changes. Giving in to something just opens the door, you give an inch and they’ll keep taking. Try not to set precedents, they’ll use precedents over and over. My wife reminds me all the time, don’t be nice, don’t give, she’ll just take advantage and you’ll get nothing in return (unless they benefit).
When I stated you must give to get, I’m not suggesting negotiations with a Sociopath. You’ll NEVER win. The thing is, they’ll settle for nothing less then you giving up something, directly or most likely indirectly.
The point being, if you confront, you WILL give up some inner peace…the degree of which depends upon you and the tactic they use to upset you. Unfortunately, when they have contact with the children, they have access to mess with that which you cherish most.
I agree with AKA Bob’s advice ”“ “except when he is present, all communication in writing. When he is present, keep a game face on, don’t look angry or perturbed, they feed on that. Ignore as much as possible, and limit any dialogue. Otherwise, stick to the No Contact rule. ”
If you can get away with THAT much without some form of aggressive or passive aggressive counter from your S, consider yourself fortunate!