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By | March 9, 2011 45 Comments

LETTERS TO LOVEFRAUD: I do not know my stepdaughter anymore

Editor’s note: Lovefraud received the following e-mail from a reader in Australia who we’ll call “Lana.” All of the names below are pseudonyms.

Everything had been quite on the Spath front for a while. But I have worked out over the past 3 years there is always something lurking, ready to rear its ugly head especially when there are children involved.

Two weeks ago I received a call from Gary, a man that my ex-husband (Steve, the spath) worked for a year ago and ripped off. Gary knew where I was working, and being in the same industry, knew my boss. He asked my boss if I could call him a few months ago and we have been in touch since.  Gary told me Steve had constantly made threats on my life etc, and he would be prepared to make a statement if I were to ever require a AVO which he advised, as he was very unnerved by Steve’s constant rants. Greg phoned me again two weeks ago he told me an acquaintance went to work for Steve and he had to leave because of the abuse the staff had to witness between Steve and the current girlfriend Nicole.

We have recently moved house and Jasmine, Steve’s eldest daughter, was going to come over and visit her half-sister Emme, now 3 1/2. Emme was not well and something in my gut kept stopping me from having Jasmine visit and giving her my address, which she asked for 3 times that morning. Being now 18 and with a car, Jasmine was looking forward to developing a relationship with Emme and I thought that it would be a wonderful idea as Emme is very close to Steve’s other daughter Ally.

Steve has had no contact with any of his three daughters for over 2 years.

Concern about Jasmine

A few days ago I received a message from Jasmine’s Aunty Lisa. She was really concerned as Jasmine has been in contact with her father, and her own mother was not even aware of this. Jasmine had not seen Steve for 2 years, the last time being when they were at the holiday cabin. He threw her against a wall and his then girlfriend stopped him from punching her in the face. He then locked her in the cabin for 2 days and the then girlfriend bought her in food and water before she was taken home for being disobedient. That was the last time she had spoken to him until recently.

Aunty Lisa is a acquaintance of mine but her sister Di, Jasmine’s Mother, is not, as she sided with Steve when we separated (Di has never been with another man for 18 years after Steve left her and has always been under his spell) until recently, I hear.

Lisa is very worried about Jasmine, as I am. When Lisa told me they were in contact, instantly all those old emotions of fear and anxiety came flooding back. I am fearful of Steve and have gone to every length to protect Emme from him. I have a close relationship with Ally and her mother, Jane, and both of us have gone to court to get full custody and to have the girls surnames changed. We have both moved and  changed our numbers, all to protect the safety of our girls, and their safety is paramount. With Jasmine now seeing her father, sadly, we see as a direct threat. Jane deleted her off Facebook so Steve can’t see into her world through Jasmine, and I have also now done the same.

I wrote a message to Jasmine, which is below. The messages are hers and my responses. Although we were very close, I have not been particularly close to her since I left Steve; although we have been in constant contact, we have only physically seen her twice in 3 years. What surprised me most are her responses. It appeared like it is a game. I texted her Aunty Lisa and said I am concerned about her motives, and think she may have a bit of her father in her. Lisa’s response was:

Um hello Lana! She has been on Facebook for 3 years and Di still swears black and blue she isn’t. I luv Jasmine 2 pieces but she is a convincing liar and there is a lot of mischief she gets up too.

Jasmine and Lisa are very close and she is more honest with her than her own mother.

Email exchange

I have changed the names on the messages below but not the text. I wanted to highlight when there are children involved from a spath, you never feel free from them. My letters are in italics and Jasmine’s responses are in regular type.

Do I trust the eldest daughter???

Is she genetically disordered?????

Or am I being over the top because of my own fears??

My gut says, never give him the benefit of the doubt.

But is this about Jasmine or Steve or now both????

Hey J!

Dont be angry at Lisa but she had thought I knew you had seen your dad the way I made mention on the topic. Jaz I want you to know I dont know your reasons for this but understand your Dad is manipulative and could have ulterior motives for seeing you. He is not capable of love, as hard as it is to understand, it is all acting to get what he wants from people. Your Pa has desperately been trying to get Matt (Steve’s brother) to talk to him and I am sure he may have done the same to you. But your dad has lost everyone because he is evil and abusive and his sad stories are all lies to con people. Hunny he is dangerous and he will hurt you again. I worry about you so much. Your Dads mental condition cannot be fixed and I beg you to research what a Sociopath is so you can understand your father and your relationship with him better. I love you and I write this because I care about you. I also write it because I care about myself,  Emme, Jane and Ally as well, and he could be getting close to you to find out where we are. Your Dad still makes threats on my life through people, and I cannot afford for you to know where I live, as he could manipulate this information from you. I am happy to catch up with you but maybe we can meet at a Park or somewhere else, I am not sure but I know knowing you are seeing him I don’t feel safe and I don’t think you are safe either. Your father has been screaming at Nicole and she is abused by your father, say co workers, his patterns will never change and I feel for her and for anyone that meets him. I beg you to not tell him anything about us, he has started paying maintenance for Emme & Ally and I don’t trust his motives, but one thing I know he will never see Emme because he is the sort of person that would kill her to get back at me for leaving him. I believe he is getting worse with age and I absolutely believe he is dangerous. Stay safe. Love Lana xxxx

well i saw him once”¦ At xmas eve and nothing comes up about you”¦ I dont mention anything and neither does he”¦ I keep it separate because i want to be in my sisters life”¦ And aunty Lisa has no right to talk about that and Im very angry”¦ Because she has just ruined my relationship that I may have with my little sister!! Never u mind”¦ I no my father and I no he doesnt love and i no i still dont tell him anything and i dont fall for what he says so im playing on that”¦”¦ And to b honest i dont believe anything in what goes on in anyones life”¦ I dont trust easy again soo im safe and i dont ever plan and spilling anything to him on u so”¦ Yeah ”¦ Yeah u to

jaz xo

Dear Jaz,

Thanks for getting back to me. You will always be part of Emme’s life if you choose too, she is your sister and she loves you even tho you have not played a large part in her life she knows exactly who you are and loves you as I do too. Lisa is really worried she didn’t mean to say anything! Steve hurts everyone that comes into his life and will continue to hurt the ones that keep giving him another chance. He will con you, promise you things and then let you down again and again. I am sorry if above read like I didn’t want you in our lives that is not what I meant. I trust that you wouldn’t say anything knowingly but I dont trust him at all. Myself and Jane included never want him to know where the girls are, were they will be going to school, anything… That cruel heartless bastard can rot in hell for all I care and he will never meet the daughter he so happily told everyone she wasn’t his so people would feel sorry for him the sick fark. I hate him for all the horrible things he has done to us all and I will never give him a chance to be in Emme’s life to con her or hurt her!

Jaz I have had someone from Werribee get in contact saying that I should put an AVO out on him as he wants to kill me because someone needs to bring up Emme, like he would do a much better job than me. Anyway I hope you understand why I need to be so protective of my privacy. The guy is a dead set loser and will only be in touch with you because he wants something. No normal man has nothing to do with his children and it is important that from the outside that he appears normal to con people less they will think he is not right in the head, that is why he could be trying to see you, so it makes him look better not because he loves you, misses you and cares for your well being. If you still want to catch up maybe next weekend that is fine! but you not knowing where we are is also to protect you too as if anything happened I would hate to know he found out through you. Just dont even leave your phone alone for 2 seconds near him or change my name in your phone just in case. Trust me he has ulterior motives to wanting to see you, like he did to Matt a couple of years ago because he wanted Pa and Gran to believe that he was normal to get more money off them and look how that turned out. I was there when he had a massive fight with Matt and it was sickening, it was also the same day he bashed me whilst holding Emme and was also the day I knew he was capable of anything and I had to run”¦ Dont be angry at Lisa because she hasnt ruined your relationship with your sister, she is just worried sick about you and for very good reason;

Love Lanaxxx

fair call”¦”¦ Well i wont trust him ever”¦”¦ And im playing the same game he is but on the other side putting it right back at him if u no what i mean lol!! Ahh yeah sure next weekend should be ok is it ok if Aiden my new boyfriend comes still?? Anyway i dont tell him anything about my life!!

Miss you xxxx

Would love to meet Aiden that would be great! I am sorry but the whole thing makes me want to vomit….

Miss you too xxxx

Oh BTW your dad wont ask anything yet as he needs to build his trust with you, that is always the game plan and you cant play the same game with him as he has 20 + years more of deception and he will already be 10 steps ahead of you. His number one priority in his normal game plan as to let you trust him and as soon as your guard is down that is when he starts to manipulate. Take care he is not after your best interests he is after something else! xxxxxxxxxx

i know….. Ppl say im playing with fire but im gonna play his own game and make sure i win”¦ Im always thinking ahead”¦ 🙂 im only looking out for myself 🙂 well shall we next week”¦”¦ At lilydale lake? If its fine? Xxxxx]

Hunny you cant play his game because he is mentally ill, you are not. He dosent have a conscience, you do. He does not love or have real feelings, you do. He uses everyone even family and does not care who he hurts, you do! You cant play games with him he is the master game player. He already has a miserable relationship with Nicole; she is financially and emotionally abused and trapped because he is winning the game with her. Steve will only have something to do with people that he can control. If he feels he has not got control or is losing the control the person is wiped it is as straight forward as that with him. You ‘are’ playing with fire and you will ‘never’ win.

He never bonded with you as a child when you needed him and loved him most and that is because he does not love, it is all acting to get what he wants. The only way you can win is by walking away as he does to everyone, that is the only thing that affects him because in his universe he thinks he is king and everyone is his servant and when he does not get his own way he walks.

Lilydale lake sounds great but I cant do Sunday now as I have a friends birthday xxx

End of messages!

I am starting to think that I do not know my stepdaughter anymore. There was no emotion in her responses to a father that continually abused her, other than being angry at her aunty for calling her out! Would appreciate some thoughts on my relationship with my 18-year-old stepdaughter. To cut a long story short, Steve is violent and I need to do everything to protect the younger children to him and the mothers, and feel although Jasmine swore she would never see her father again, I feel she will compromise our safety. I am now very confused about my relationship with her.


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Ox Drover

Dear Lana,

Welcome to LoveFraud, and your article is very interesting and shows that even after years and years, some psychopaths will NOT give up, the rage against victims that “get away” (the P sees it as the victim “winning” I think) just keeps getting hotter.

I think your stepdaughter either has no concept of what she is getting into —and “Playing his game back at him” if she is trying to get revenge on him for what he did to her is a VERY foolish thing on her adolescent part; or she has “reconciled” with him, is falling for his attempts to use her to find you and is either like him, or is duped by him, that you have abused him and is helping him.

In either case, the girl is in a precarious position. She is making herself a perfect target to a man who TARGETS EVERYONE close to him.

With Steve still making verbal threats toward you, to kill you even, I suggest that you BELIEVE THEM.

I also suggest that you do not trust your step daughter at all. I would (having been stalked and my P son sending someone to kill me) not take a chance to even let the younger daughter see her at all,, even in a park. It is possible Steve could have you followed from the park to your home, or attack you in the park.

While your younger daughter may “love her sister” and you want her to have contact with her siblings, frankly, I would not even take a chance at this point you just have too much risk involved with a man like this.

I suggest you read Gavin DeBecker’s books, “The Gift of Fear” and I think the other one is “the Gift of Betrayal”–DeBecker is himself a victim of a severely abusive parent, in his case, his mother, and is an internationally respected expert on security against stalking. He is a good read. His book, “the Gift of Fear” is one that helped me in my own task of keeping myself safe. I literally had to leave my house secretly hide out for nearly a year. I am still VERY CAUTIOUS because my P son is in prison, but he was in prison at the time he sent the “Trojan Horse Psychopath” into our family to try to kill me and make it look like suicide. I take threats like this from violent psychopaths VERY SERIOUSLY—so if I were you, I would do everything I could to protect my location and my daughter’s location from this man.

It really doesn’t matter if your step daughter is a participant or a dupe in his schemes. My maternal DNA donor is my P son’s dupe and participates with him in “saving him” from me. He is in prison for murder already, and totally unrepentant, but she protects him none-the-less from me wanting him to STAY in prison for the “life” sentence and not ever be released on parole. It is 3 years until his next parole hearing, but if he gets out then or ever, I will have to leave my home and go into hiding, as will his brothers.

I am NO contact with my egg donor, though I am her only child, but it is to protect myself from my P son. No contact means that though I live next to her and occasionally have to have business contact with her, I do that by e mail, and try to keep all information about myself from getting to her via friends, relatives or neighbors. I realize that while she may not be a psychopath, she is a “dupe” and believes my P-son is being “persecuted” by his brothers and I so she is trying to “help” him and “support” him by sending him money in prison, and leaving him money when she dies….which will give him the better resources to hunt me and hurt me.

I think that is the situation with your step daughter at this point in time and that he is grooming her for information and she is hungry for a father’s “love”—-but either way, KEEP SAFE, and I would change my phone number and get off face book completely. Take down any photographs you have up there of either yourself or your daughter.

super chic

Hi Lana,
I agree with Oxy that your step daughter just does not “get it”,
she is so young, and who knows what he is saying to her.
Really excellent advice above.
I have not had this type of experience but I wanted to
thank you for sharing your story so we can all learn. xoxo

Redwald

Are you over the top because of your own fears, Lana? I’d say most likely you are. These facts are very thin evidence on which to base a theory that an 18-year-old girl might be a psychopath.

What have we got? First, that Jasmine’s Aunty Lisa claims “she is a convincing liar and there is a lot of mischief she gets up to.” To start with, Jasmine is still a TEENAGER (even though she is a legal adult) and we have to expect a certain amount of “mischief” out of teenagers. I have no idea what this alleged “mischief” is supposed to have been, or what “lies” Jasmine is alleged to have been telling, and for what reason. Being on Facebook is not exactly a mortal sin. I’d have to hear about worse behavior than that before I labeled a teenager a psychopath.

I’m bearng in mind that Jasmine must have had a difficult life, not just with her parents splitting and her father being what he is, but with all the fallout that must have resulted from that. I gather the man has had three daughters by three different women, plus various girlfriends (of whom Nicole is only one). I dare say all these people, including Jasmine’s mother Di who seems to have problems of her own, must have been at loggerheads with one another at various times, and Jasmine may have had a hard time juggling all these relationships. If she has learned to be a bit devious at times, and somewhat economical with the truth, that wouldn’t surprise me. Especially if she’s been forced to HIDE her relationship with one person in order to maintain a relationship with another person. That may be unfortunate, but it’s hardly proof that she’s suffering from a genetic disorder.

Second, you seem concerned because you saw Jasmine displaying “no emotion” toward “a father that continually abused her.” I’m not quite sure what emotion you expected her to display, but I’m guessing from the context that you thought she’d be nursing anger toward her father. I on the other hand would not necessarily expect that. We have to remember first and foremost that no matter who this man is or what he is, HE IS STILL HER FATHER. If he’s abused her in some way in the past, it’s very likely her feelings toward him would simply be AMBIVALENT.

Since he is her father, it’s not surprising if she still wishes for a relationship of some kind with him, even if their past relationship has been bad. Perhaps that wish is unrealistic. Possibly, as you said, it may even be dangerous for her. But the WISH itself is perfectly natural. Just because at one time she “swore she would never see her father again,” I would not necessarily expect a vow of that kind to be kept forever. As older events receded into the past, she could quite easily rekindle the hope that some kind of relationship could be built with her father, perhaps based on a new and more adult understanding of what the man is really like.

Naturally she’d have mixed feelings about all this in view of past history. She obviously realizes she can’t have the kind of close or trusting relationship anyone would want with a parent. She’s only seen the guy ONCE, after all! But in her mind she may feel right now that some kind of contact with her father is better than none, even if it has to be an “arm’s length” relationship where she needs to stay aware of the games he plays in order to avoid being manipulated by him.

I am not saying this is wise. I’m not saying it’s necessarily going to work. I am saying that her DESIRE to have some kind of contact with her father is understandable in itself. If she wants to try, that is her right, even if the experiment only brings her frustration or grief. That’s the only way some people learn.

It was also natural enough for her to be annoyed if she believed her aunt had said something that might rob her of a relationship with her little sister. Jasmine may have seen a lot of stuff in her life along the lines of “if you’re friends with so-and-so then you can’t be friends with me.”

Of course it’s not beyond the bounds of possibility that Jasmine has inherited psychopathic traits from her father, but I’ve seen precious little evidence so far to support that idea. Nor did I see any hint of hostility toward you in Jasmine’s messages, despite some of the things you said about her father. It was all very well to warn her against the things Steve does, but I don’t think it was a good idea to go trashing him to his own daughter with namecalling and remarks about “rotting in hell” and the like. You could risk putting her back up if you do that. I can’t expect HER to feel the same way toward her own father that you do. As it was, she took your remarks well enough.

I’m not sure what you mean when you express suspicion of Jasmine’s motives. What do you think her motives are? Are you suggesting she’s acting as a spy for her father to find out where you live? That sounds a bit paranoid to me. What would she gain out of doing that? She already said, more than once, that she “doesn’t trust her father” and “doesn’t tell him anything.”

In the end you’ll have to make up your own mind whether to let Jasmine know where you live, if you’re worried about the slight chance that her father might get it out of her somehow—for instance by managing to sneak a look at her cellphone (as you suggested) on one of the rare visits she may make to him. But these days there are other ways Steve could find out where you live—IF he were serious about those threats, that is. He doesn’t need Jasmine to spy for him.

Whatever happens, I do hope the girl makes a good life for herself after the rocky start she must have had. And you too, of course.

MiLo

Redwald ~ well thought out and expressed post and I could not agree more. I will go one step further –

Lana ~ I am an adoptive mother and former foster mother. I have conducted seminars on adoption and trained adoptive parents. It is NEVER acceptable to make such disparaging and hurtful remarks about the biological parent of a child. It can actually change “who they are”, they internalize these hurtful things and may end up believing it of themselves. I know 18 is considered an adult, but this poor CHILD has been through enough.

As if calling him a “cruel and heartless bastard” “dead set looser” wasn’t uncalled for enough, you went on to inform her that he was “only in touch with you because he wants something”, “he is trying to see you not because he loves you, misses you and cares about you” and he never bonded with you – etc.

All of the above may very well be true, but NO CHILD should have to hear that about their parent.

I sincerely hope that you can get some guidance before you start saying things like this to your own daughter.

Ox Drover

Lana,

As the adult child of a psychopath, who didn’t get to know the man until I was an older teenager and I was curious and wanted to meet him…I think I can speak from the stand point of the girl as well as a person having been stalked by a psychopath. (still am for that matter)

1) her feeling for wanting to know about her father is normal, natural in my opinion.
2) to say no child deserves to hear the TRUTH about their biological parent I think is off base too. NO ONE told me anything really negative about my P sperm donor before I went to go live with him…I WAS TOTALLY UNPREPARED FOR WHAT HE WAS—A FULL FLEDGED, CARD CARRYING, WIFE BEATING, MURDERING, CROOKED PSYCHOPATH.
3) I got raped and beaten and I don’t know what would have happened to me if I hadn’t had friends that were willing to help me get out of his clutches.
4) Sure, the girl is probably ticked off that her aunt notified you.
5) there’s a lot of drama going on here
6) Nope, you can’t “diagnose the girl” as a psychopath with the information you have
7) YOUR PRIMARY RESPONSIBILITY TO MY WAY OF THINKING IS TO A) YOUR DAUGHTER AND B) YOURSELF AND KEEPING YOU BOTH SAFE.
8) I think this girl is a danger to that safety on the down side, and on the UP side is any possible benefit to your daughter that being in contact with this young woman (half sister) is going to be.

Any time we have to make a choice yes or no, we have to weigh the possible benefits versus the possible costs….the possible benefits are the girl has a relationship with your dfaughter and it is good for both of them. COSTS? The possible cost is that she betrays you to your X husband and he hurts you or your daughter.

Is the possible benefit of communicating with this girl and allowing her to see your daughter and know where you live worth the possible cost? That’s for YOU to decide.

Would I let anyone near MY daughter who was seeing a father that violent who had made threats like that against anyone, much less against me? NOT AS LONG AS I AM BREATHING.

The decision is yours. What’s the benefit versus the possible cost or consequences?

Ox Drover

Milo, you and I agree on most things, but an ADULT child HAS EVERY RIGHT IN MY OPINION TO KNOW WHAT THEIR BIOLOGICAL PARENT IS CAPABLE OF or has DEMONSTRATED in behavior.

I realize that there are therapists who will say “don’t talk bad about the other parent no matter what” and you know, I went along with that school of thought myself when my husband deserted my sons and me…leaving us (with his P-father’s help) literally HOMELESS. He never again saw or spoke to my sons. He did pay child support but it was mailed through the courts and they were young and devastated. I told them he was “sick in his mind” and that it wasn’t his fault he couldn’t see them…that was sort of true, he did have some serious mental health issues, but when they were OLDER I told them the ENTIRE STORY. I think they deserved that when they hit late teenage years.

He never tried to contact them, neither did their grandparents, and I heard recently that he died a couple of years ago. Even his obit did not mention his kids by me or his previous marriage. It was like they didn’t exist. I guess to him they didn’t.

I wish to hell someone had told me when I got old enough to understand just what a piece of carp my P sperm donor was and that he was DANGEROUS–no one did.

So I’m going to have to disagree with you on this one Milo—but yes, little kids, yes, they don’t need to hear a ration of stuff, even if it is true they can’t process that at an early age, but as young adults, I think they NEED TO KNOW THE TRUTH, not just the P-parent’s side of it. I wish I had known, it might not have sunk in at first but maybe I would have gotten out before he raped me.

skylar

Oxy,
that is horrible what he did to you. I’m so sorry that you experienced that.

I completely agree with you. THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE. and a LIE is a LIE.

I think that to try to protect a child by hiding the truth is akin to a LIE which does a disservice to the child. The only thing I disagree on you with is the age of the child. The truth doesn’t harm EVER. no matter what age. The younger the child learns to navigate the world the better. The truth, of course, must be told in a loving and matter of fact way. You don’t explain it with venom in your voice or fear either. You don’t make them afraid, you teach them the same way you warn them about crossing the street or being wary of pedophiles. No therapist would warn against hurting their psyches with these warnings, but somehow think that the truth should be selective.

Another reason for not being selective on the truth is that the child actually KNOWS things intuitively. When mommy says things that go against what the child KNOWS intuitively, then the child experiences a WTF? moment. It begins that cycle of self-doubt that we are all running around trying to fix as adults. When Jesus said, “do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” He didn’t say, “except kids, you can hide things from them.”

I think the therapists who want to protect children with lies, are probably well meaning but they don’t know about sociopaths – that’s the wrong tactic.

My exP’s mom never told her boys that she divorced their dad because he was a serial cheater. She wanted them to love him. Unfortunately, it led exP to HATE her, for breaking up the family. He was probably already well into becoming an N, but he left home at age 12 and went to live with a prostitute, which traumatized him into a heinous P. Long story short, that first lie, ruined MY life, because I ran into him. A lie is never the answer.

Ox Drover

Sky, I agree that lying isn’t the answer, but it depends again on the age of the child HOW MUCH you tell them and when…and what the “problem” is.

You can be truthful and not disclose everything, things that a small child won’t get get. Kids have developmental stages where there are things that they cannot get because literally their brain isn’t developed enough to “get it.” Just like a 2 year old isn’t going to “Get” the concept of zero, or “big numbers” either or even all their ABCs. That’s what I mean.

Or to tell a 18 month or 2 year old that they are going to die if they are diagnosed with cancer. They don’t know what “die” is, but what to tell a child 5 or 10 or 15 is differnet. I know a cancer doctor today who doesn’t tell her patients that they are terminal even if they are….she’s a great doc and saved the life of a friend of mine who was pretty close to death when diagnosed with leukemia.

I remember a cute story about a little girl 5-6 years old and her dog died…the girl asked her mom, “Mom,, do dogs have souls and will Fluffy be in heaven?” The mother said “Darling if it will make you happy for Fluffy to be in heaven then he will be there.” So the mother didn’t try to explain to the child if Fluffy had a soul or not, or if there was a dog heaven or not, but told the child a truthful answer that suited her level of development and calmed her grief as well.

Nurses are taught to “orient” a patient to person, place and time, and once in a nursing home I had a little demented patient who came out every day to the nurse’s station in her wheel chair. She asked what time the bus would come. The sweet little young nurse, would always say “Honey, this isn’t the bus station, you are at Old folk’s Manor and your husband is dead, he isn’t coming in today.” The lady would cry and cry. I finally (I was the director of nurses) told the little nurse if she EVER told that woman she was in a nursing home again I would fire her ass. I told her to tell the lady that “the bus is late, just wait right there, it will be here” then when lunch time came to tell her, “well the bus is still late, let’s take you to get you something to eat before it gets here.” Then at night to put her to bed and tell her it’s still late. That sweet little lady waited patiently every day, happy as a clam, waiting on her dead husband to come to the bus station. Telling her the bus was late was NOT a lie in my opinion, because she had so much dementia she couldn’t have remembered where she was but when she was reminded, she experienced the grief AGAIN FRESH AND NEW…and there was no need to make her sad with the “truth”—just my opinion.

skylar

But Oxy,
God doesn’t protect us from the truth, why do we do it to children. Some children are born deformed and no one can hide that from them. They must learn other strengths.

I was reading about a little girl who had a terminal disease, I think she was around age 6 and she knew she would die. She accepted it. I think it’s how the story is told that makes the difference.

The old lady, is like Job, who knows why God wants her to experience that confusion, but maybe it was time for her to experience grief and she was in denial so far that it came out as a form of dementia.

Pain sucks but the truth still sets us free.

Ox Drover

Skylar,

I’m going to have to let this subject drop…I am in 180 degree disagreement with you about making this demented little old lady cry because she was wrong that she wasn’t in a bus station waiting for her husband. Peace. fini

skylar

Oxy, I never thought I would convince you otherwise. LOL.
I’m just ruminating on the subject, as I tend to do when I’m making sense of the world. Peace.
🙂

Ox Drover

Believe it or not, Sky, BloggerT has turned me around 180 degrees on some things, but he uses science-based evidence to do so, on opinions I’m pretty hard and fast on some of them…BEING KIND is one of those, especially with children and with demented and elderly or brain injured, retarded, or otherwise disabled people. Peace.

MiLo

Hi Oxy & Sky ~

I read your responses carefully and reread mine and even Lana’s emails again. I totally understand what you are saying and I do agree with a lot of what you are saying. I am not trying to say lying to a child is ever the right thing to do. I think it is kind of like telling them about sex ~ tell them age appropriate information when you feel they can intellectually and emotionally handle it. Let them ask the questions. Don’t volunteer information that they haven’t asked for.

Lana submitted emails she sent to her step daughter. She called him a cruel, heartless bastard, a dead set looser. I stand by my statement that no child should have to hear things like that about a parent. She also told her that her father never loved her. Again, something along the lines of Dad is not capable of showing love in an appropriate way. I think she could have been truthful, without being cruel. I do think that many kids turn these type of statements inward and feel that they are no good also or that they aren’t worthy of love.

Oxy, you are right adults do have every right to know about what their biological parents are capable of. In your case, someone OWED it to you to tell you about your father. This girl however, does know her father and what he is capable of. How many mature people on this site know the truth about the S/P’s in their life and what they are capable of, but still have a hard time accepting it. Looking at it in that way, the truth doesn’t always set us free.

I should also say, I think some of what Lana told her step daughter showed love and care. I absolutely agree that she should not let her know anything personal. I commend her for wanting her to be part of her sister’s life.

I think that the most important thing is to teach these kids how to accept and handle their own personal situations and above all let them know it is not their fault that their parents are like this.

Hope this makes sense, I’m having a hard time putting two words together.

Oxy – just read your above post PLEASE be kind to me I am elderly (and brain impaired)

skylar

Makes perfect sense MiLo,
you are obviously not brain impaired.

Ox Drover

Dear Milo, ROTFLMAO, of course I will be kind ot you dear, just sit right there, your husband’s bus is late, but I’ll get you a snack while you wait! LOL

Actually, working with the demented and brain injured gave me a whole different way of looking at people so afflicted. Just like my MIL that was one of my closest friends. She had some little strokes and began to be paranoid and become truly UNREASONABLE and frustrating, but it wasn’t “Her” that was that way, it was her injured brain! I couldn’t let her do a lot of the things she wanted to, but you know, at the same time….I didn’t hold “her” responsible for the things she did. Same with some of these brain injured patients that are combative, you can’t let them hurt you, you have to prevent that, but you can’t hold it against them either.

I know what you mean and I agree with you, “age appropriate” information….but this daughter (the older one) is an adult, not a child. While I agree that Lana’s terms are pretty “tough” in speaking to the adult daughter about her father, none-the-less, the girl is an adult.

Whether the girl is high in psychopathic traits or not (per the aunt’s information to Lana) I wouldn’t want her around my YOUNG daughter since she is associating with her father that has threatened to hurt me….I wouldn’t want my kids around anyone who is or might be a dupe of a psychopathic or violent person.

Part of this whole thing is that “taking sides” with or against a Psychopath….and people do get duped and even STAY duped for years, decades, a life time….been there myself, actually! LOL

But, now that I am a bit wiser (and a lot older) any “friend” of the Ps ain’t no friend of mine!

lesson learned

OX,

OMG!! I TOTALLY get your story about the little ole lady with dementia and it was RIGHT ON!!!!

I worked in a Skilled Nursing Facility for FIVE YEARS. We had a patient named Neal who had dementia in the most SEVERE form lol! I mean the dementia wasn’t funny but HE was….

He was FOREVER ruminating to his army buddies (who were long since dead from the war or beyond), about getting a pack o’beer out from under “There”….so anytime any of us would come into the room, he’d say “Hey Bob (Al, George-you name it) there’s some beer under there, think I’d like a cold one, won’t ya have one with me?>” LOL!!!

So LITERALLY, All of us just knew to pretend to get that beer out from under the bed and pop open the bottle of OJ next to his bed and hand it to him lol! Then grab a a chair and let him BS away. That’s wasn’t a LIE, that was a GIFT to a patient who was VERY ill. There is a fine line in when to tell the truth and when not too, but this is a gray area and there are many of those too.

I loved a lot of those old folks. And I never ONCE (unless they were remotely capable of it) told them the truth when they did something just like your little ole lady did. LOL< GOOD ON YOU For threatening to fire that Nurses ASS.

LL

aussiegirl

I see merit in some of what MiLo said. I agree totally with Oxy’s form of “kindness” to those who will never know any differently and for whom those “kindnesses” will make or break their day….or their hearts. I agree with LL and with most of what Sky says.

Now I’m going to throw my hat into the ring and give my opinion.

I have worked for the past 18 years with kids (mostly 3 – 12 year-olds), many of whom come from severely dysfunctional, even abusive and neglectful, family situations.

Age appropriate information? A valid point (as is the use of age appropriate terminology) when dealing with normal kids in run of the mill circumstances. For example, when you 3 year old asks you how the baby gets into the mummy from the daddy, something along the lines of “the daddy and mummy love one another and each of their bodies make the ingredients for the baby; the mummy has the egg and the daddy has the seed which will make the baby grow inside the mummy until it is ready to be born”. This will hardly satisfy your average 10 year old! Individual kids mature at different rates too. I watched in astonishment a few years back when a friend’s very advanced 10 year old boy wanted to know about puberty. She explained the mechanics of boys and girls; he was not at all squeamish but kept coming back out of his room with the illustrated book she gave him and asking more questions about each diagram. He was totally nonplussed and took it all in his stride.

Where parents have parted company and child custody, property division and other related issues flare up, there is often an unfortunate tendency by usually otherwise well-mannered adults, to place their kids as the meat in the sandwich and use them as pawns in a bitter power struggle. These parents typically will denigrate the opposing parent to their kids – now THAT is definitely harmful and is emotionally and psychologically abusive. HOWEVER – what if there are real dangers present to the kids whilst in the opposing parent’s care (where they have joint custody or unsupervised visitation rights)? Surely then it is necessary to teach our kids how to self-protect?

For instance, I have a friend whose ex-husband (an alcoholic who drunk-drives with the kids in the car) has unsupervised access to their kids. All she can do is to teach them that they can call her anytime of day or night if they ever feel unsafe and she will come and get them. She has taught them to call the emergency police number and provided them with a cell phone. They have learned to refuse to get into a car with their father after he has been drinking. She never denigrates the father to the kids – but she does tell them in clinical terms that he has a disease called alcoholism and that it is not safe for them to be around him if he is drunk.

With kids who are facing potentially dangerous and even life-threatening situations, I believe explicit knowledge is critical. I have told children I have worked with that certain behaviours are not normal or acceptable from anyone in their lives and they do not have to be treated that way – that there are always people who can help them if they are frightened or in danger. One such discussion about what is normal in a family and what is dangerous and against the law (without specifying his mother and step-father or running them down to the child), with a 7 year old boy, resulted in his coming to school one day and asking for help for himself and his 2 younger siblings. Those 3 kids went into foster care (with good, kind people) and were spared further abuse, torture and neglect.

So – my point? There are many variables to take into account. While I might not have put things exactly the same way as Lana did to the 18 year old, I agree in principle with her reasons for doing so.

My advice Lana? I strongly feel that in your case, there is more to lose than could be gained by risking contact with this young woman. It may not be her fault, but if alarm bells are ringing (however softly) then they are ringing for a reason.

One idea for keeping in touch until the situation is less dangerous, could be to email one another and to have the emails relayed through a third party who is miles away and unconnected to any of it; I am also in Australia and would be happy to do this for you. That way, you could stay in touch safely, yet protect your privacy.

Listen to your gut over your heart – hearts can be talked around, guts cannot. I wish you peace and resolution.

kim frederick

Sky and Oxy, this discussion you two are having about the truth reminds me of Dostoyevski’s (sp?) “The Grand Inquesitor”.
I read it years ago, and just recently re-read it and got something completely different out of it.
Sky, it can be found on line, and in light of our mutual interest in God and Girard you might find it interesting and food for thought.

skylar

Kim,
I googled it, I only have time for the synopsis.

It seems to apply to our conversation, Thanks, Kim.

I’m sure I’m only getting the surface of it. I’ll have to do some searching and see what Girard thinks of that story.
🙂

skylar

Kim,
I found a link with Girard’s notes on it. I’m not done reading it yet. looks really good.

http://payingattentiontothesky.com/2010/04/07/rene-girard-on-dostoevsky%E2%80%99s-legend-of-the-grand-inquisitor/

take notes, there will be a quiz afterwards!
🙂

Ox Drover

Aussie girl,

Well written post and good advice to Lana, and I entirely agree with you.

Recently in the news was a 9 year old girl who went to a bank teller and told her that her mom was drunk and asked for help because she didn’t want to ride with her. That was a SHARP kid and the mom or someone had taught her well. That I think was a perfect example of what you are talking about. It takes GUTS for a kid to NOT obey a parent, and usually parents who are doing wrong things are pretty abusive to the kids as well so the kids have a double dose of problems.

There was another case recently of an 11 year old girl who was in the car with her drunk mom and called our emergency number of 911 and the cops came and stopped her mom. I also recall one where a kid in the back seat called and reported a parent or step parent who was reaching around and smacking her sib pretty badly, called emergency number and the non-custodial parent was arrested…since the actually hitting took place in another state from where the arrest took place the local child protective services would DO NOTHING until the custodial mom could drive there from another state and the cop actually took this child home until her mom could get there.

So a few cases of this DO make the news, but unfortunately, most abused kids don’t report it, just endure it.

kim frederick

Skylar, Thanks for the link. It’s kind of hard to figure out what Girard is getting at in spots, I think because it’s written as a series of notes and not completely sussed out.
I had to take a break, but will go back and finish it soon.

When I first read, “The Grand Inqusitor” I kind of identified with Ivan, and saw him as a human being who loved humanity. He loved humanity so much that he lied to them to keep them happy.

Now I see him as sinister. I see him as planting seeds of doubt. Like the father of lies.

skylar

Kim,
yes when I was younger I saw things more black and white too.
everything was good or bad. No need for deeper contemplation and I would have agreed with you and the inquisitor that man shouldn’t have to suffer needlessly (especially me). But as I’m growing through suffering, I am beginning to see the benefits and I’m surprised by it. Killing with kindness takes on a whole new meaning.

skylar

Kim,
from the link in Girard’s words:

What is the traditional conception of the devil? This character is the father of lies; he is thus simultaneously true and false, illusory and real, fantastic and everyday. Outside of us when we believe him to be in us, he is in us when we believe him outside of us. Although he leads an existence useless and parasitic, he is morally and resolutely “Manichean.” He offers us a grimacing caricature of what is worst in us. He is at once both seducer and adversary. He does not cease to thwart the desires that he suggests and if, by chance, he satisfies them it is in order to deceive us.

sounds like a sociopath doesn’t it?

neveragain

Lana,

Some of us experienced a parent who never told the truth to us about the abusing parent. Let me tell you, I knew the truth. To have my father not acknowledge it made me feel doubly betrayed. This was when I was a teen too.

I would however be careful about putting anything more in writing. And if your gut is telling you not to meet, then don’t. Your first responsibility is to the children who are not adults and to your own life.

Ox Drover

Neveragain, the lack of validation about what my P sperm donor did to me, from my egg donor did hurt—though she admits now he never told the truth about anything…except that he did not rape me of course, that was his one exercise in truth-telling. LOL But you know, I no longer NEED HER VALIDATION I have my own. There was so long when I wanted her validation, begged for it, never got it…but I have come to see that we must validate ourselves.

I often say that back when Columbus thought the world was round and everyone else thought he was WRONG and laughed at him, it DID NOT CHANGE THE SHAPE OF THE WORLD. Truth is truth, right is right and up is still UP! Even if you are the ONLY ONE in the whole world who knows it.

democracy (voting on what is true or what is right to do) doesn’t work in many situations…it is like two wolves and a sheep voting about what to have for dinner. I remember my P-son writing to me and telling me that everyone in the family got along with HIM and NO ONE got along with me (that was when they were all conspiring to take egg donor’s money) so the problem was ME not him or them! LOL ROTFLMAO

jofary

This forum has been very thought-provoking. I’m a lurker, mostly (I tend to be a wallflower at parties, too, lol!) but I want to add my two cents worth.

There is a very, very thin line between being truthful about an abusive ex and bad-mouthing. I have three children between two ex-P’s and for the most part, I’ve been very diplomatic, age-appropriate and non-judgmental. At least to them. It has been very difficult, though. My oldest is almost thirteen and capable of understanding a heck of a lot more than my middle child, seven. I have to balance what I tell him and what I know he’s going to share with the younger two.

That said, my BIGGEST problem with the whole “telling the truth” thing is the very strong possibility that when (not if) my children need counselling to deal with the ongoing abuse they suffer at the hands of their fathers then I can pretty much guarantee that I’m the one who’s going to look like the bad guy.

Most counsellors, like most judges and police, etc, just don’t understand what a sociopath is. They just tell themselves that the “truth is somewhere in the middle,” so when I claim my ex hit me (true), and he claims I hit him (not true), then everyone who has legal powers just assumes each of us was equally to blame.

So when my oldest child, who is right now in emotional crisis because of a decade’s worth of severe abuse that no court, judge, social worker or police officer has ever taken seriously meets with his counsellor, the fact that I’ve EDUCATED him on sociopathic behaviour will mean to the counsellor that I’ve bad-mouthed the dad.

And that sets me up for some serious legal ramifications. Like losing custody of all my children. Because I’m a single mother so I MUST be a loser, lazy and, of course, a liar.

Just my perspective. Educate these kids, yes, but be very, very, VERY careful how you do it.

Ox Drover

Dear Jofray,

Good point! Thanks for adding this in. That’s why I think the schools should be part of this educational program so that it is not coming just from the custodial parent.

MiLo

Dear Jofray,

You are absolutely correct here. As a matter of fact, we have just been dealing with the exact situation you describe. Ours was a Guardian Ad Litem who NEVER did get it. She even went so far as to ASSUME any negative feeling my custodial grandson had about his mom came directly from us . She refused to even consider that it came from the neglect, abuse and emotional trauma he had suffered at the hands of his mom.

Yes, carefully walk that fine line.

jofary

MiLo,

I’m sorry to hear of your struggles. Is it still ongoing? Does her opinion count for much in the grand scheme of things?

Personally, I find it alarming how so many professionals who matter in child custody cases, including even counsellors, just swallow the whole “Parental Alienation Syndrome” garbage hook, line and sinker. Not only has this “syndrome” been completely snubbed by the scientific community, but ridiculed by it as well (especially taking into context the misogynistic and even pedophilic source that invented it, Richard Gardner).

Using this so-called syndrome is basically the lazy worker’s way to explain away things. So-called professionals should know better than to take the easy way out.

And even though this discredited “syndrome” has been literally kicked to the curb by the medical community, just the opposite is happening in our courtrooms. Judges are accepting it as valid, especially when it’s the mother that’s being accused (this syndrome was originally called “Malicious Mother Syndrome,” if you can believe that). It’s like you have a shot against you without even having gotten in the game yet.

This is NOT a good thing when you’re fighting for your kid’s well-being with a sociopath!

Education of the public is definitely a must. Education of our vulnerable kids is critical but I sure look forward to the day when protecting them becomes PROACTIVE rather than cleaning up the damage left behind by these creeps.

MiLo

Jofary ~ thanks for your care and concern. Our latest court battle ended two weeks ago, with us reaching an agreement. We do have legal custody, but she has unsupervised visitation. We were able to have a provision put in that allows my grandson the option of rejecting any and all visits. The GAL objected to this provision, but we were able to keep it in.

To answer your question, in this juvenile court the GAL’s opinion counts for EVERYTHING. She entered the case with her mind already made up and when the facts did not support her theory, she changed the facts. We were fighting not only our S/P daughter and her attorney, but also the person who was suppose to protect our grandson’s best interests.

Our grandson is 10 and we have had legal custody of him for the past 6 years and guardianship of him prior to that. During those 6 years, his mom’s visitation was all of 36 HOURS, her choice. Almost 2 years of absolutely no contact, her choice. She took us back to court to state we would not allow visitation. What amounted to a clerical error was discovered in our 6 year custody order and our custody was vacated. We had to start all over again. Thank God we had a previous emergency custody order which we were able fall back on and he stayed with us during the year long battle.

So, even though we had done NOTHING wrong this GAL from Hell decided this 10 year old child that had not seen his mother in over 5 years and had not lived with her since the day he turned 3 would be better off with mommy dearest. She believed that we were poster children for “parental alienation” and NOTHING could change her mind. Even after my daughter admitted in court that she didn’t really want custody, the GAL still tried convincing the Judge that she should have him.

My grandson has been diagnosed RAD, high functioning Autism, ADHD, OCD and ofcourse emotional problems galore. We have had him in therapy since age 3, he has received Occupational Therapy for almost 2 years and is in Special Ed. classes at school for behavioral problems. Now, let’s just yank the security right out from under him, put him back into an abusive home and call it BEST INTEREST OF THE CHILD.

Sorry, guess I’m still a little “raw” on this one. Just heard today that the GAL is asking the court to order us to pay 100% of her $8,000 fee. This is customarily split 50/50. We now have to pay our attorney to argue this. Our legal bills have now reached six figures. UNREAL

Ox Drover

Dear Milo,

FOLLOW THE MONEY! This GAL’s $8,000 feel is about as bad as that guy(?) the other day I was reading about –CRS–that wanted the $20,000 right now and would send over a runner to pick up the check—

Milo, I too am so sorry that you have had to go through all of this misery and still are perched on the cliff of having it all yanked out from under you…wonder why this (the GAL) hates you so bad, it is obvious by what you’ve said and her wanting you to pay ALL of her fee…BTW where is the P-DTR coming up with attorneys fees and so on to take you back to court? Kind of sounds like the GAL is an N or a P herself. (((hugs))))

MiLo

Oxy ~

Very good question (why GAL hates us) – no one can figure this one out, other than she did interview daughter dearest FIRST and fell for her verbal vomit hook, line and sinker. But, she seems to hate us way more than that because she has literally had all the VERIFIED information given to her on many occasions. I don’t want to become one of those people that run around seeing P’s everywhere, but this seems to be the only feasible explanation. She certainly can and has lied about many, many things.

Daughter has had the same attorney since Grand was a year old and Children Services took her to court to remove custody. He was her public defender then, all cases since then have been ones that do not qualify her to use a public defender. He has NEVER charged her a dime (cash). Daughter and boyfriend deal drugs (boyfriend did 2 years for it) – wonder why this man keeps defending her ??? hmmmmm

Oh, the $8,000 isn’t necessarily the end of it. She is playing “Let’s Make A Deal” – if we don’t come up with the $8,000 there is a “mystery” amount behind door number 2 for the last several months in fees that she plans on charging IF she has to go to court to collect. Here is an example of her charges – $162.50 for an ATTEMPTED phone call to me – I was not home and my answering machine malfunctioned because of a power outage x 2 = $325. and on and on and on.

Oh Well, this too shall pass and maybe my dear husband can start yet a third career to pay for all of this. He retired from his first career the day Grand was born. How funny is that?

Ox Drover

These people who are appointed by the court to work for the court with the litigants to pay some UNSPECIFIED amount….which several times have been shown that the judges appoint their “friends” or even people who give them KICK BACKS….and the “let’s make a deal” thing sounds sort of like someone who is dishonexst….she is trying to get you to pay because she KNOWS that DTR ain’t gonna never pay NONE, NADA, ZIP, ZERO…so she is going for the “deep pockets” she thinks….and her threat of “door number two” is to try to get you to give in, buckle under. I actually think I’d rather pay the lawyer than her.

And as awful as it sounds, maybe next time the daughter goes to court, if the boy is old enough that you can explain to him, just tell her, OK, you can have him….and she won’t keep him long. NONE of this as you know is about HIM, it is all about her PUNISHING YOU which of course she is accomplishing royally.

Your story makes me SO ANGRY!!!!

As for the GAL I think she sounds very N-ish or P-ish and somehow you gave her N-injury or she could be playing some other dysfunctional game or just plain greedy. But as long as she stirs the sheet, it is going to fly everywhere. Good luck and my prayers for you! ((((hugs))) You know I’m in your corner 110% for what that’s worth!

aussiegirl

Oh MiLo –

You poor things! How awful for you and how dreadful for the little one…. : (

I saw the same thing/opposite thing happen with my brother. When he and his exwife split, they each had half of shared custody of their children. Both parents lived nearby, so schooling and changeovers were not issues. The exwife falsely accused my brother of abuse, so a Children’s Representative lawyer (the equivalent of your GAL) was appointed to oversee the “children’s interests”.

The mother started to pour poison into the oldest child’s ears and after 3 years of fighting to maintain contact with his kids, my brother gave up, By then, the false accusations had been long since withdrawn, but they had already worked their un-magic.

That was in 2001 and here we are, 11 years later, with my brother struggling to have any sort of relationship at all with his daughter, who is as bitter and twisted (and WRONG) as her mother. This kid is 18 now and spits venom at him if he tries to say hello – it’s just awful.

You can take your GALs and your CPLs and float them up the muddy river in a barbed-wire canoe for all the good they do for families….

My sympathies to you and your husband. x

(On a brighter note, most of a child’s bonding and brain-networking for emotions is set up before they turn 5, so if you guys have given him a good start, he may well do okay, despite the less than perfect circumstances he finds himself in)

Ox Drover

Dear Aussie,

It is difficult when you get a situation like your brother’s is, but he also needs to keep in mind that there is some genetic stuff going on that helps make her like her mother—so there really isn’t anything he should be guilty about not doing more….it is a disappointment when our kids aren’t the adults we wanted them to be, but we just have to realize that we did the best we could and that is all you can expect out of a jack ass so why do we expect perfection out of OURSELVES?

I hope you can help your brother to see that he is not “responsible” or “to blame” for his daughter’s attitude or behavior, though she of course and her mother will try to convince him he is the evil one. Give him a hug from me!!!

hushabybabydoll

Milo,

I am commenting on this way too late– but if you get this message, have you ever heard of Rainbows? It’s an afterschool program for kids who have had such terrible trauma. I went to it as a child and attribute much of my current sanity to the fact that I had a safe place to talk about my feelings. I have become a volunteer for the program for a couple years, but since moving to new place and having tiny children, won’t be able to be in it for awhile again. It’s a safe and confidential group where kids can freely talk about their emotions and experiences with other kids who are going through similar things. The kids really minister to each other too- it was very touching to see them cry with each other and validate eachother, I saw a marked change in one girl during the two years I was there. . . it gave me a lot of hope. Maybe you could volunteer to be a facilitator for a different age group than your grandson, so you can learn more about the program etc.

Hope this helps anybody with traumatized children! There are people who understand the complications of divorce, death, abuse, neglect etc on children, and this program is a fruit of a mother’s love for her children who were not recovering well from their parents divorce.

MiLo

Hi Hushabybaby

Thanks so much. I have never heard of Rainbows, sounds like a fabulous program. I will check into it and see if we have anything like that out in the sticks. I think the kids ministering to each other’s needs could be key. Right now my Grandson is flatly refusing to discuss his feelings with ANYONE. He is in a group for social skills at school and whenever they talk about feelings, he says something like he is a closed book. His therapist is not having much luck either.

Thanks for the post and I will look into it. We can always use all the help we could get.

Ox Drover

Hey MiLo,

Sorry to hear that junior is sort of pulling a “turtle” act, but what can you expect when his egg donor is who she is? DUH?

I thought that was a cool group too….

What is going on with the GAL and her demand that you pay the entire bill? I have thought about you and prayed for you, and I hope that you can keep that witch out of your hair.

I am stillllllll mad about that woman trying to shaft you! UGH!!! LOL

hushabybabydoll

Milo–

yes we lived in the sticks too. . it just depends on what kind of people you have in your little village. :0)

http://www.rainbows.org/

is the website for the program. I’m the reason that my hometown started it up again because I shared with an old facilitator how much it meant to me back then. It was a small start, but every year about 10 kids in that community hear the message, “It’s ok to feel whatever you feel” . . . and that message is so imperative for the child to know. . . I also learned at that group that IT WASN’T MY FAULT. That was extremely important, and because of those facilitators stating that so clearly, I never struggled with my BM’s issues and flair ups as being contingent on who I was. Those messages were imperative for me.

Pita

Hi All,
I know this post probably won’t be read, but after reading many posts here, the thought occured to me that perhaps there are a few psychopaths posting on this board. Have any of you ever thought of that? They are here to mess with more people? I have learned the hard way about online “personalites”, they are as menacing as the sociopath next door. Buyer beware!

Louise

Pita:

Oh, yes, we know! We are well aware. It’s pretty easy to pick them out of the crowd.

ErinBrock

Pita…..yep….they are everywhere….LF is NOT immune!

one/joy_step_at_a_time

Pita, and why do you ask?

Pita, this is a forum full of people with highly effective “Sociopath Early Warning Systems.” If/When a sociopath/psychopath wanders in here, they are about as inconspicuous to this group of people as a fox with feathers glued to his back tip-toeing into in a hen house.

We can usually “tell” pretty quickly….

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