Editor’s note: Lovefraud received the following e-mail from a reader in Australia who we’ll call “Lana.” All of the names below are pseudonyms.
Everything had been quite on the Spath front for a while. But I have worked out over the past 3 years there is always something lurking, ready to rear its ugly head especially when there are children involved.
Two weeks ago I received a call from Gary, a man that my ex-husband (Steve, the spath) worked for a year ago and ripped off. Gary knew where I was working, and being in the same industry, knew my boss. He asked my boss if I could call him a few months ago and we have been in touch since. Gary told me Steve had constantly made threats on my life etc, and he would be prepared to make a statement if I were to ever require a AVO which he advised, as he was very unnerved by Steve’s constant rants. Greg phoned me again two weeks ago he told me an acquaintance went to work for Steve and he had to leave because of the abuse the staff had to witness between Steve and the current girlfriend Nicole.
We have recently moved house and Jasmine, Steve’s eldest daughter, was going to come over and visit her half-sister Emme, now 3 1/2. Emme was not well and something in my gut kept stopping me from having Jasmine visit and giving her my address, which she asked for 3 times that morning. Being now 18 and with a car, Jasmine was looking forward to developing a relationship with Emme and I thought that it would be a wonderful idea as Emme is very close to Steve’s other daughter Ally.
Steve has had no contact with any of his three daughters for over 2 years.
Concern about Jasmine
A few days ago I received a message from Jasmine’s Aunty Lisa. She was really concerned as Jasmine has been in contact with her father, and her own mother was not even aware of this. Jasmine had not seen Steve for 2 years, the last time being when they were at the holiday cabin. He threw her against a wall and his then girlfriend stopped him from punching her in the face. He then locked her in the cabin for 2 days and the then girlfriend bought her in food and water before she was taken home for being disobedient. That was the last time she had spoken to him until recently.
Aunty Lisa is a acquaintance of mine but her sister Di, Jasmine’s Mother, is not, as she sided with Steve when we separated (Di has never been with another man for 18 years after Steve left her and has always been under his spell) until recently, I hear.
Lisa is very worried about Jasmine, as I am. When Lisa told me they were in contact, instantly all those old emotions of fear and anxiety came flooding back. I am fearful of Steve and have gone to every length to protect Emme from him. I have a close relationship with Ally and her mother, Jane, and both of us have gone to court to get full custody and to have the girls surnames changed. We have both moved and changed our numbers, all to protect the safety of our girls, and their safety is paramount. With Jasmine now seeing her father, sadly, we see as a direct threat. Jane deleted her off Facebook so Steve can’t see into her world through Jasmine, and I have also now done the same.
I wrote a message to Jasmine, which is below. The messages are hers and my responses. Although we were very close, I have not been particularly close to her since I left Steve; although we have been in constant contact, we have only physically seen her twice in 3 years. What surprised me most are her responses. It appeared like it is a game. I texted her Aunty Lisa and said I am concerned about her motives, and think she may have a bit of her father in her. Lisa’s response was:
Um hello Lana! She has been on Facebook for 3 years and Di still swears black and blue she isn’t. I luv Jasmine 2 pieces but she is a convincing liar and there is a lot of mischief she gets up too.
Jasmine and Lisa are very close and she is more honest with her than her own mother.
Email exchange
I have changed the names on the messages below but not the text. I wanted to highlight when there are children involved from a spath, you never feel free from them. My letters are in italics and Jasmine’s responses are in regular type.
Do I trust the eldest daughter???
Is she genetically disordered?????
Or am I being over the top because of my own fears??
My gut says, never give him the benefit of the doubt.
But is this about Jasmine or Steve or now both????
Hey J!
Dont be angry at Lisa but she had thought I knew you had seen your dad the way I made mention on the topic. Jaz I want you to know I dont know your reasons for this but understand your Dad is manipulative and could have ulterior motives for seeing you. He is not capable of love, as hard as it is to understand, it is all acting to get what he wants from people. Your Pa has desperately been trying to get Matt (Steve’s brother) to talk to him and I am sure he may have done the same to you. But your dad has lost everyone because he is evil and abusive and his sad stories are all lies to con people. Hunny he is dangerous and he will hurt you again. I worry about you so much. Your Dads mental condition cannot be fixed and I beg you to research what a Sociopath is so you can understand your father and your relationship with him better. I love you and I write this because I care about you. I also write it because I care about myself, Emme, Jane and Ally as well, and he could be getting close to you to find out where we are. Your Dad still makes threats on my life through people, and I cannot afford for you to know where I live, as he could manipulate this information from you. I am happy to catch up with you but maybe we can meet at a Park or somewhere else, I am not sure but I know knowing you are seeing him I don’t feel safe and I don’t think you are safe either. Your father has been screaming at Nicole and she is abused by your father, say co workers, his patterns will never change and I feel for her and for anyone that meets him. I beg you to not tell him anything about us, he has started paying maintenance for Emme & Ally and I don’t trust his motives, but one thing I know he will never see Emme because he is the sort of person that would kill her to get back at me for leaving him. I believe he is getting worse with age and I absolutely believe he is dangerous. Stay safe. Love Lana xxxx
well i saw him once”¦ At xmas eve and nothing comes up about you”¦ I dont mention anything and neither does he”¦ I keep it separate because i want to be in my sisters life”¦ And aunty Lisa has no right to talk about that and Im very angry”¦ Because she has just ruined my relationship that I may have with my little sister!! Never u mind”¦ I no my father and I no he doesnt love and i no i still dont tell him anything and i dont fall for what he says so im playing on that”¦”¦ And to b honest i dont believe anything in what goes on in anyones life”¦ I dont trust easy again soo im safe and i dont ever plan and spilling anything to him on u so”¦ Yeah ”¦ Yeah u to
jaz xo
Dear Jaz,
Thanks for getting back to me. You will always be part of Emme’s life if you choose too, she is your sister and she loves you even tho you have not played a large part in her life she knows exactly who you are and loves you as I do too. Lisa is really worried she didn’t mean to say anything! Steve hurts everyone that comes into his life and will continue to hurt the ones that keep giving him another chance. He will con you, promise you things and then let you down again and again. I am sorry if above read like I didn’t want you in our lives that is not what I meant. I trust that you wouldn’t say anything knowingly but I dont trust him at all. Myself and Jane included never want him to know where the girls are, were they will be going to school, anything… That cruel heartless bastard can rot in hell for all I care and he will never meet the daughter he so happily told everyone she wasn’t his so people would feel sorry for him the sick fark. I hate him for all the horrible things he has done to us all and I will never give him a chance to be in Emme’s life to con her or hurt her!
Jaz I have had someone from Werribee get in contact saying that I should put an AVO out on him as he wants to kill me because someone needs to bring up Emme, like he would do a much better job than me. Anyway I hope you understand why I need to be so protective of my privacy. The guy is a dead set loser and will only be in touch with you because he wants something. No normal man has nothing to do with his children and it is important that from the outside that he appears normal to con people less they will think he is not right in the head, that is why he could be trying to see you, so it makes him look better not because he loves you, misses you and cares for your well being. If you still want to catch up maybe next weekend that is fine! but you not knowing where we are is also to protect you too as if anything happened I would hate to know he found out through you. Just dont even leave your phone alone for 2 seconds near him or change my name in your phone just in case. Trust me he has ulterior motives to wanting to see you, like he did to Matt a couple of years ago because he wanted Pa and Gran to believe that he was normal to get more money off them and look how that turned out. I was there when he had a massive fight with Matt and it was sickening, it was also the same day he bashed me whilst holding Emme and was also the day I knew he was capable of anything and I had to run”¦ Dont be angry at Lisa because she hasnt ruined your relationship with your sister, she is just worried sick about you and for very good reason;
Love Lanaxxx
fair call”¦”¦ Well i wont trust him ever”¦”¦ And im playing the same game he is but on the other side putting it right back at him if u no what i mean lol!! Ahh yeah sure next weekend should be ok is it ok if Aiden my new boyfriend comes still?? Anyway i dont tell him anything about my life!!
Miss you xxxx
Would love to meet Aiden that would be great! I am sorry but the whole thing makes me want to vomit….
Miss you too xxxx
Oh BTW your dad wont ask anything yet as he needs to build his trust with you, that is always the game plan and you cant play the same game with him as he has 20 + years more of deception and he will already be 10 steps ahead of you. His number one priority in his normal game plan as to let you trust him and as soon as your guard is down that is when he starts to manipulate. Take care he is not after your best interests he is after something else! xxxxxxxxxx
i know….. Ppl say im playing with fire but im gonna play his own game and make sure i win”¦ Im always thinking ahead”¦ 🙂 im only looking out for myself 🙂 well shall we next week”¦”¦ At lilydale lake? If its fine? Xxxxx]
Hunny you cant play his game because he is mentally ill, you are not. He dosent have a conscience, you do. He does not love or have real feelings, you do. He uses everyone even family and does not care who he hurts, you do! You cant play games with him he is the master game player. He already has a miserable relationship with Nicole; she is financially and emotionally abused and trapped because he is winning the game with her. Steve will only have something to do with people that he can control. If he feels he has not got control or is losing the control the person is wiped it is as straight forward as that with him. You ‘are’ playing with fire and you will ‘never’ win.
He never bonded with you as a child when you needed him and loved him most and that is because he does not love, it is all acting to get what he wants. The only way you can win is by walking away as he does to everyone, that is the only thing that affects him because in his universe he thinks he is king and everyone is his servant and when he does not get his own way he walks.
Lilydale lake sounds great but I cant do Sunday now as I have a friends birthday xxx
End of messages!
I am starting to think that I do not know my stepdaughter anymore. There was no emotion in her responses to a father that continually abused her, other than being angry at her aunty for calling her out! Would appreciate some thoughts on my relationship with my 18-year-old stepdaughter. To cut a long story short, Steve is violent and I need to do everything to protect the younger children to him and the mothers, and feel although Jasmine swore she would never see her father again, I feel she will compromise our safety. I am now very confused about my relationship with her.
Aussie girl,
Well written post and good advice to Lana, and I entirely agree with you.
Recently in the news was a 9 year old girl who went to a bank teller and told her that her mom was drunk and asked for help because she didn’t want to ride with her. That was a SHARP kid and the mom or someone had taught her well. That I think was a perfect example of what you are talking about. It takes GUTS for a kid to NOT obey a parent, and usually parents who are doing wrong things are pretty abusive to the kids as well so the kids have a double dose of problems.
There was another case recently of an 11 year old girl who was in the car with her drunk mom and called our emergency number of 911 and the cops came and stopped her mom. I also recall one where a kid in the back seat called and reported a parent or step parent who was reaching around and smacking her sib pretty badly, called emergency number and the non-custodial parent was arrested…since the actually hitting took place in another state from where the arrest took place the local child protective services would DO NOTHING until the custodial mom could drive there from another state and the cop actually took this child home until her mom could get there.
So a few cases of this DO make the news, but unfortunately, most abused kids don’t report it, just endure it.
Skylar, Thanks for the link. It’s kind of hard to figure out what Girard is getting at in spots, I think because it’s written as a series of notes and not completely sussed out.
I had to take a break, but will go back and finish it soon.
When I first read, “The Grand Inqusitor” I kind of identified with Ivan, and saw him as a human being who loved humanity. He loved humanity so much that he lied to them to keep them happy.
Now I see him as sinister. I see him as planting seeds of doubt. Like the father of lies.
Kim,
yes when I was younger I saw things more black and white too.
everything was good or bad. No need for deeper contemplation and I would have agreed with you and the inquisitor that man shouldn’t have to suffer needlessly (especially me). But as I’m growing through suffering, I am beginning to see the benefits and I’m surprised by it. Killing with kindness takes on a whole new meaning.
Kim,
from the link in Girard’s words:
What is the traditional conception of the devil? This character is the father of lies; he is thus simultaneously true and false, illusory and real, fantastic and everyday. Outside of us when we believe him to be in us, he is in us when we believe him outside of us. Although he leads an existence useless and parasitic, he is morally and resolutely “Manichean.” He offers us a grimacing caricature of what is worst in us. He is at once both seducer and adversary. He does not cease to thwart the desires that he suggests and if, by chance, he satisfies them it is in order to deceive us.
sounds like a sociopath doesn’t it?
Lana,
Some of us experienced a parent who never told the truth to us about the abusing parent. Let me tell you, I knew the truth. To have my father not acknowledge it made me feel doubly betrayed. This was when I was a teen too.
I would however be careful about putting anything more in writing. And if your gut is telling you not to meet, then don’t. Your first responsibility is to the children who are not adults and to your own life.
Neveragain, the lack of validation about what my P sperm donor did to me, from my egg donor did hurt—though she admits now he never told the truth about anything…except that he did not rape me of course, that was his one exercise in truth-telling. LOL But you know, I no longer NEED HER VALIDATION I have my own. There was so long when I wanted her validation, begged for it, never got it…but I have come to see that we must validate ourselves.
I often say that back when Columbus thought the world was round and everyone else thought he was WRONG and laughed at him, it DID NOT CHANGE THE SHAPE OF THE WORLD. Truth is truth, right is right and up is still UP! Even if you are the ONLY ONE in the whole world who knows it.
democracy (voting on what is true or what is right to do) doesn’t work in many situations…it is like two wolves and a sheep voting about what to have for dinner. I remember my P-son writing to me and telling me that everyone in the family got along with HIM and NO ONE got along with me (that was when they were all conspiring to take egg donor’s money) so the problem was ME not him or them! LOL ROTFLMAO
This forum has been very thought-provoking. I’m a lurker, mostly (I tend to be a wallflower at parties, too, lol!) but I want to add my two cents worth.
There is a very, very thin line between being truthful about an abusive ex and bad-mouthing. I have three children between two ex-P’s and for the most part, I’ve been very diplomatic, age-appropriate and non-judgmental. At least to them. It has been very difficult, though. My oldest is almost thirteen and capable of understanding a heck of a lot more than my middle child, seven. I have to balance what I tell him and what I know he’s going to share with the younger two.
That said, my BIGGEST problem with the whole “telling the truth” thing is the very strong possibility that when (not if) my children need counselling to deal with the ongoing abuse they suffer at the hands of their fathers then I can pretty much guarantee that I’m the one who’s going to look like the bad guy.
Most counsellors, like most judges and police, etc, just don’t understand what a sociopath is. They just tell themselves that the “truth is somewhere in the middle,” so when I claim my ex hit me (true), and he claims I hit him (not true), then everyone who has legal powers just assumes each of us was equally to blame.
So when my oldest child, who is right now in emotional crisis because of a decade’s worth of severe abuse that no court, judge, social worker or police officer has ever taken seriously meets with his counsellor, the fact that I’ve EDUCATED him on sociopathic behaviour will mean to the counsellor that I’ve bad-mouthed the dad.
And that sets me up for some serious legal ramifications. Like losing custody of all my children. Because I’m a single mother so I MUST be a loser, lazy and, of course, a liar.
Just my perspective. Educate these kids, yes, but be very, very, VERY careful how you do it.
Dear Jofray,
Good point! Thanks for adding this in. That’s why I think the schools should be part of this educational program so that it is not coming just from the custodial parent.
Dear Jofray,
You are absolutely correct here. As a matter of fact, we have just been dealing with the exact situation you describe. Ours was a Guardian Ad Litem who NEVER did get it. She even went so far as to ASSUME any negative feeling my custodial grandson had about his mom came directly from us . She refused to even consider that it came from the neglect, abuse and emotional trauma he had suffered at the hands of his mom.
Yes, carefully walk that fine line.
MiLo,
I’m sorry to hear of your struggles. Is it still ongoing? Does her opinion count for much in the grand scheme of things?
Personally, I find it alarming how so many professionals who matter in child custody cases, including even counsellors, just swallow the whole “Parental Alienation Syndrome” garbage hook, line and sinker. Not only has this “syndrome” been completely snubbed by the scientific community, but ridiculed by it as well (especially taking into context the misogynistic and even pedophilic source that invented it, Richard Gardner).
Using this so-called syndrome is basically the lazy worker’s way to explain away things. So-called professionals should know better than to take the easy way out.
And even though this discredited “syndrome” has been literally kicked to the curb by the medical community, just the opposite is happening in our courtrooms. Judges are accepting it as valid, especially when it’s the mother that’s being accused (this syndrome was originally called “Malicious Mother Syndrome,” if you can believe that). It’s like you have a shot against you without even having gotten in the game yet.
This is NOT a good thing when you’re fighting for your kid’s well-being with a sociopath!
Education of the public is definitely a must. Education of our vulnerable kids is critical but I sure look forward to the day when protecting them becomes PROACTIVE rather than cleaning up the damage left behind by these creeps.