UPDATED FOR 2024. Editor’s note: Lovefraud received the following email from a reader whom we’ll call “Gloria.”
I have been divorced from my abusive husband (mental, physical, sexual against me but he NEVER LEFT A MARK ON ME) for 11 years and we have 3 teenagers together. I have known him 20 years. For most of this time, I have been puzzled about why I could not “move on” after the divorce.
Yes, I left him. During the marriage I did not know the name “abusive,” so I just kept trying to be a good wife and mother, fulfill my marriage commitment, etc., but then I woke up just enough to know that it was “abusive” and I left. We had gone to about 8 couples counselors during the marriage, and I always ended up feeling much worse, and he never took any of the responsibility, just smirked and was derisively contemptuous.
I kept trying to get along with him following the divorce, to “co-parent” (we have joint custody) as the courts seem to require. I have a lot of good will and keep forgiving and trying, but I’m not a pushover! I’m an assertive person and I do assert myself with him constantly, respectfully. Though he is not respectful in return. I tried for all these years to say to the kids, as I was advised by mental health professionals, “your dad is a good man. I’m sure he doesn’t mean it. We just don’t love each other anymore, the way married people should… but I loved him when I married him, and he is your father, and I will always support and respect him.” I am so angry at the mental health professionals for steering me wrong! Seriously, I did all of this in such GOOD WILL, but ignorance. I only, always, wanted what was going to help my children.
After everything I tried, nothing seems to work and now we are barely speaking. I mean he has been trying to control and shape how I am “allowed” to communicate with him. Basically, instructing me, I could email him, but only once a week, only one topic per email — and so I would, and then it would be something else. I mean, just impossible demands and hoops to jump through. I finally realized, there is no compromise with this man, unless I do all of it. He does none of it.
Scares the children
There are some interesting, colorful problems that go along with my story. One daughter cut her wrists a couple years ago (one time), she was frightened of her dad and refused to see him, and he blamed me (instead of coming together with me to help our daughter in crisis) for her refusal to see him, and threatened me with legal action (he threatens repeatedly).
He attacked her physically in her room, locking the door, menacingly advancing, pushing her to the floor, yelling at her. He has rage attacks frequently. He scares the children.
I should mention that he is very wealthy, a lawyer. Not a con-artist profile! He never bilked me of any money — but I am struggling financially due to having been focused on raising the kids all these years, and the kids have difficult personalities. He could, for example, take me repeatedly to court, just for the pleasure of impoverishing me further. He did this during the divorce — his family has a lot of money. He is an upstanding citizen, good employee, no criminal record except that one time I called 911 and he was arrested and charged with DV
Prized possessions
I have tried to lay low with him. I have tried to “appease” him just to get off his radar. We have joint custody and the kids go back and forth. We have tried a few times to go to counselors to help with “parent coordination,” but the counselors always fall for his lies OR they look at both of us puzzled and say stuff like, “with the two of you, it is hard to know where the credibility lies.
He is more interested in them as prized possessions than in them personally. This follows the pattern of how he treated me (as an object) during our marriage. It is a very cold thing.
Now not only do we have the one daughter refusing to see her dad, our son is also refusing to see him. He will not say why, “I just don’t feel like it.” This, I should say, is an adamant refusal — there is nothing I can do to force it. My ex-husband blames me and has accused me of “parental alienation.” He does his own alienating — he needs no help from me!
I have been advised by these counselors, “The conflict between you and your ex-husband is very bad for the children. You need to stop.” And I am so hopeless, hearing things like that. I am not the one doing it. I am not the one attacking, or ignoring, or being rude and disrespectful. Though I do sometimes assert myself to him (not defend, not counterattack, not withdraw). I say, “You are lying.” He smiles and says, “No I’m not, you do it too.” There is just no getting to integrity with this man. It is maddening.
My own parents have admonished me to try to give him the benefit of the doubt and get along with him for the sake of the children. 🙁
College money
My ex-husband is assigning “roles” to the daughters: the daughter who still sees him is the “good” child and the one who refuses is the “bad” child (they are twins). He has offered $100,000 in college tuition to the “good” daughter, and he has told the other daughter that his $$ help for college is conditional upon her return to a “full relationship” with him. I assume he means that he comes back to live with her — not that they have a real relationship based on love.
I should mention — he lies, lies, lies. He smiles like there is no problem, making me out to be the crazy one. He has been remarried for the past 5 years, and I think she is possibly more sociopathic/evil than he is. For a long time, I thought maybe he has BPD. Then I thought no, he lacks empathy, must be a narcissist. Then, now, I see the sociopathic connection. I see the fake display of emotions. I see the lack of remorse. Well — both he and his wife have the fakey-nice sing-songy way of talking to the kids, it sickens all of us, and I worry about my one daughter who still goes over there. I worry about my son who sometimes exhibits thoughtless behaviors.
Teenagers
Which brings us to today, where the story got very interesting all of a sudden. I recently got a full-time job, which requires my being gone from the house for the usual number of hours (instead of being home as flexibly as possible, which I tried to do all these years, working part-time or flexibly). The kids were having a rough adjustment to it, but I said, be patient, it’s a transition, we will get through it, but yes you have to help out more (teenagers). I have been a good mom. I have been there, I have done stuff with and for them. I am not perfect. I think I have been utterly normal and healthy. Despite the PTSD I’ve had to deal with.
So, the one daughter who refuses to see her dad, she reacted badly one day when I had a “lecture” to all three kids (it was a stern lecture about wanting them to help out more — I have to be very careful and precise and honest in presenting this to you: My kids are not used to me being stern — they are used to me being “nice” — so this was new and different to them, but I assure you nothing abusive or out of the ordinary in what I think is pretty common and normal parenting especially with teenagers. I really am a very even keel person. So this daughter goes to her counselor the next day and rants about me, she is so upset, and the counselor reported me to CPS, which began an investigation, and I will cut to the chase:
Mandated therapy
We now have mandated family therapy: me, the 3 kids, the ex-husband and his wife! This is very interesting since I would really prefer “no contact,” and that would be much healthier and more appropriate for me. It is interesting and maybe useful for the kids now to see the way their dad really is during these sessions, which send chills down my back (especially the new wife and him together). The kids are getting very angry and fed up with him and his lies and his “impression management” at each session.
Read more: Our family wizard can help you co-parent with a sociopath
CPS “found” me “unsubstantiated neglect,” which is such a sad blow to me. Because I know it is unfounded. I know they did not do a fair and thorough investigation. And I know the investigator had her mind made up before she even came to see me. It was a hostile interrogation and she told me the allegation was that I “hate” my daughter and that I am “mentally unstable.” So this will be on my record (searchable database for prospective employers/volunteer agencies) for the next 5 years, until my youngest is 20 years old. I think this is insane. This is what the system is like. I think, why would the state expect a victim of domestic violence to be in weekly mandated counseling with her abuser? It makes no sense to me.
And this is where I am now — some things in the way society views sociopathy, domestic violence, etc. just do not make sense. My friends are even shaking their head and nervous — they say, “Gloria, if this can happen to you (CPS), this could happen to any of us. You are such a good mom!”
Why all the urging to women to leave our abusers, and THEN we are expected to co-parent with them? And the children are supposed to just be okay with all this?
Learn more: Proving parental alienation in court
Lovefraud originally posted this story on Aug. 26, 2011.
Letter to Lovefraud: I’m looking on POF, but I’m scared to move forward
Folks – anderson cooper has a show (today) that should be online tomorrow, called ‘Custody Nightmares’. Suspect it will be good for practicing our spath spotting.
Back when Donna first published the story of Dr. Amy Castillo whose X killed her kids after the judge refused to listen to her tell about him threatening to kill them to get back at her, and when he got a visit….he did just that. I thought at the time that this was an ISOLATED INCIDENT, but I have found since then it is NOT AN ISOLATED INCIDENT and there are news stories EVERY DAY about someone who has killed their kids to get back at the X or to keep the x from getting them. .No one but someone who was SERIOUSLY mentally ill would do such a thing, except a psychopath—in either case, serious mental illness or psychopathy, the kids are still just as DEAD.
The deaths are only the TIP of the iceberg I suspect in the custody nightmares…the ones where the kids are ONLY emotionally and mentally and spiritually abused I suspect are far more common than anyone could suspect, or prove for sure.
It breaks my heart every time I read about one of those cases.
I hope Cooper does a good show, I wish I could see it but won’t be able to. Let me know what it says!
trivia – Anderson Coopers mother is Gloria Vanderbilt. Onestep, I think Anderson is a friend of Dorothy’s ~!
i just watched the show he did as a tribute to his mom. didn’t know that until tonight.
friend? me thinks the ruby slippers are under his bed. 😉 he is a strangely rigid creature.
Hi Everyone — “Gloria” is me, 20years. I must have completely missed this post/letter, LOL! I guess I was so busy reading all around the site, didn’t even notice.
Thank you so much for your comments and advice and support. I know I’m just right in the thick of it, right now, even though it has been 20 years of knowing this man… I still have a few years left with kids at home.
Ox, yes, the daughter who cut her wrists two years ago is the same one who ranted to the counselor. And interestingly, that wrist cutting incident is what led me to re-open some of my thinking about my ex-husband… I had pretty much given up on EVER understanding him, and I was just trying to lay low until the kids grew up. So, I learned about BPD (I see some tendencies in my daughter but nothing definitive; she has a lot of emotional reactivity but is much better since 2 years ago) and immediately my thoughts went to HIM. That was the first moment of revelation — that something might actually be off in him — that maybe it wasn’t just two people who couldn’t get along (you know, “it takes two to tango.”) I know a lot of us have been through this — all of the soul searching, trying to “change ourselves because we can’t change the other person,” trying to see what our “part in it” might be, and take responsibility for that. I am getting that there is truth to that, but it is not what I had mistakenly thought, all this time. It is a spiritual truth. But I’m just partway through the journey.
I’ve read so many books in the past two years — maybe 100 books. Some are psychology books, some are spiritual books, some are books on logic (because he is so slippery and I thought I was going nuts — I wanted to understand the logical reasoning and fallacies, to be able to figure out why I felt so stupid with him!)
I haven’t yet gotten to Legal Abuse Syndrome or Just Like His Father, but those are on my list to get. My understanding has grown greatly during this time, and I still have a lot to learn. I’m learning that he will just keep doing what he does, so I’m working on detaching. Which is hard to do, while CPS is mandating this therapy.
Just last week, it became apparent to me that it is NOT safe for any of us to express any emotion (desire, fear, worry, sadness) in the “therapy” sessions because he uses this knowledge against us. I’m hoping that if we can just stop expressing emotions and keep a placid mask on (like my ex-husband does) that the therapist will give up and release us, and tell CPS that we are “done.”
I am not against therapy. I would welcome, for example, good family therapy for me and the 3 children (except for the cost). But many therapists do not understand our situation, and I can see why. Many therapists are against “no contact.” They want to reunite estranged family members. And I think they may just see me as a bitter, stubborn ex wife. I am anything but that, or see it through a different lens.
Skylar, you have very insightful comments. But I keep hearing “grey rock” and I don’t know what that means! 🙂 Please explain. Thanks.
I am reading everyone’s comments here, and I really appreciate them! I am sorry I didn’t see my post sooner.
20years, “grey rock” is what you just described doing: Show no emotions, no matter what you really feel. Be totally boring. Sociopaths like drama, so we say “go grey rock” when we mean it’s time to be really, really boring.
g’morning 20years,
it’s 4AM here, my insomnia is back.
grey rock is a label I use for what a total stranger in a sushi bar explained to me.
After I puked my story on this stranger, he said, “oh, that’s a malignant narcissist.” Then he told me that when you try to leave them, they stalk you and try to destroy you.
He is a lawyer and he told me about a relationshit he had with a high powered attorney, who was very well respected in her field. She would come home, drink and be abusive.
He knew that if he tried to break up with her, she would stalk him, slander him and compromise his ability to make a living. So he decided to bore her. He would be unresponsive, show no emotion either good or bad. When she wanted to go out, he would say, “I don’t know” or “I don’t care.” She slithered away. spaths can’t stand to be bored. They need constant stimulation. Often times, you can make them leave you by not participating in their drama.
I named it gray rock because people who are so average that they don’t attract attention, seem to blend into the landscape like a gray rock. Gray rocks are everywhere, but we never notice them. In order to avoid spaths, we must wear a cloak of gray rock. They won’t even see you. If they have already noticed you, they will go elsewhere when they realize you don’t provide any drama or excitement.
Gosh….golly…I’m SLOW today. I just figured out that 20years is the writer of the article. Duh.
Good Morning panther!! Haha.
20years, I read this post a little while back actually. Maybe that’s why it took me a moment to realize who is who.
Thanks for the explanation of grey rock! That is exactly what I tried to do at yesterday’s session. It makes me feel good that this is something other people have done, too, which has worked for them.
I think I really *was* very boring. 😉
When the therapist asked me questions, I said stuff like, “I really don’t have thoughts about that.” or “I don’t have much to say on that… but I would be interested to hear what X and his wife are thinking…” and I was extremely unemotional — but relaxed and just a bit monotone but not depressed. I kept my hands in my lap and slouched a little. I wore khaki. Kind of neutral energy. May need to fine tune a bit, but I think I did it!
The kids also did their parts. No one got angry or upset. None of them want to be there, and they all spoke up and said so. They are busy teenagers and would rather be doing their homework.
The one daughter who has gone “no contact” with her dad for the past two years calmly told him the “reasons why” she is choosing not seeing him (she was factual and not emotional). His response? “It sounds like you are blaming me.” At least the therapist did his part and said, “no, she is just expressing herself, which is a good thing.”
Excellent work 20years!!
((hugs))
I can only imagine how dreadful it is. It’s easy for me to talk but you are the one having to walk the walk.
If you can, try to find a false target for them. Express a value that you don’t really care about. It will make them focus on that. Keep the spaths busy with their machinations. They’ll never stop, so direct their energy away from you.