UPDATED FOR 2024. Editor’s note: Lovefraud received the following email from a reader whom we’ll call “Gloria.”
I have been divorced from my abusive husband (mental, physical, sexual against me but he NEVER LEFT A MARK ON ME) for 11 years and we have 3 teenagers together. I have known him 20 years. For most of this time, I have been puzzled about why I could not “move on” after the divorce.
Yes, I left him. During the marriage I did not know the name “abusive,” so I just kept trying to be a good wife and mother, fulfill my marriage commitment, etc., but then I woke up just enough to know that it was “abusive” and I left. We had gone to about 8 couples counselors during the marriage, and I always ended up feeling much worse, and he never took any of the responsibility, just smirked and was derisively contemptuous.
I kept trying to get along with him following the divorce, to “co-parent” (we have joint custody) as the courts seem to require. I have a lot of good will and keep forgiving and trying, but I’m not a pushover! I’m an assertive person and I do assert myself with him constantly, respectfully. Though he is not respectful in return. I tried for all these years to say to the kids, as I was advised by mental health professionals, “your dad is a good man. I’m sure he doesn’t mean it. We just don’t love each other anymore, the way married people should… but I loved him when I married him, and he is your father, and I will always support and respect him.” I am so angry at the mental health professionals for steering me wrong! Seriously, I did all of this in such GOOD WILL, but ignorance. I only, always, wanted what was going to help my children.
After everything I tried, nothing seems to work and now we are barely speaking. I mean he has been trying to control and shape how I am “allowed” to communicate with him. Basically, instructing me, I could email him, but only once a week, only one topic per email — and so I would, and then it would be something else. I mean, just impossible demands and hoops to jump through. I finally realized, there is no compromise with this man, unless I do all of it. He does none of it.
Scares the children
There are some interesting, colorful problems that go along with my story. One daughter cut her wrists a couple years ago (one time), she was frightened of her dad and refused to see him, and he blamed me (instead of coming together with me to help our daughter in crisis) for her refusal to see him, and threatened me with legal action (he threatens repeatedly).
He attacked her physically in her room, locking the door, menacingly advancing, pushing her to the floor, yelling at her. He has rage attacks frequently. He scares the children.
I should mention that he is very wealthy, a lawyer. Not a con-artist profile! He never bilked me of any money — but I am struggling financially due to having been focused on raising the kids all these years, and the kids have difficult personalities. He could, for example, take me repeatedly to court, just for the pleasure of impoverishing me further. He did this during the divorce — his family has a lot of money. He is an upstanding citizen, good employee, no criminal record except that one time I called 911 and he was arrested and charged with DV
Prized possessions
I have tried to lay low with him. I have tried to “appease” him just to get off his radar. We have joint custody and the kids go back and forth. We have tried a few times to go to counselors to help with “parent coordination,” but the counselors always fall for his lies OR they look at both of us puzzled and say stuff like, “with the two of you, it is hard to know where the credibility lies.
He is more interested in them as prized possessions than in them personally. This follows the pattern of how he treated me (as an object) during our marriage. It is a very cold thing.
Now not only do we have the one daughter refusing to see her dad, our son is also refusing to see him. He will not say why, “I just don’t feel like it.” This, I should say, is an adamant refusal — there is nothing I can do to force it. My ex-husband blames me and has accused me of “parental alienation.” He does his own alienating — he needs no help from me!
I have been advised by these counselors, “The conflict between you and your ex-husband is very bad for the children. You need to stop.” And I am so hopeless, hearing things like that. I am not the one doing it. I am not the one attacking, or ignoring, or being rude and disrespectful. Though I do sometimes assert myself to him (not defend, not counterattack, not withdraw). I say, “You are lying.” He smiles and says, “No I’m not, you do it too.” There is just no getting to integrity with this man. It is maddening.
My own parents have admonished me to try to give him the benefit of the doubt and get along with him for the sake of the children. 🙁
College money
My ex-husband is assigning “roles” to the daughters: the daughter who still sees him is the “good” child and the one who refuses is the “bad” child (they are twins). He has offered $100,000 in college tuition to the “good” daughter, and he has told the other daughter that his $$ help for college is conditional upon her return to a “full relationship” with him. I assume he means that he comes back to live with her — not that they have a real relationship based on love.
I should mention — he lies, lies, lies. He smiles like there is no problem, making me out to be the crazy one. He has been remarried for the past 5 years, and I think she is possibly more sociopathic/evil than he is. For a long time, I thought maybe he has BPD. Then I thought no, he lacks empathy, must be a narcissist. Then, now, I see the sociopathic connection. I see the fake display of emotions. I see the lack of remorse. Well — both he and his wife have the fakey-nice sing-songy way of talking to the kids, it sickens all of us, and I worry about my one daughter who still goes over there. I worry about my son who sometimes exhibits thoughtless behaviors.
Teenagers
Which brings us to today, where the story got very interesting all of a sudden. I recently got a full-time job, which requires my being gone from the house for the usual number of hours (instead of being home as flexibly as possible, which I tried to do all these years, working part-time or flexibly). The kids were having a rough adjustment to it, but I said, be patient, it’s a transition, we will get through it, but yes you have to help out more (teenagers). I have been a good mom. I have been there, I have done stuff with and for them. I am not perfect. I think I have been utterly normal and healthy. Despite the PTSD I’ve had to deal with.
So, the one daughter who refuses to see her dad, she reacted badly one day when I had a “lecture” to all three kids (it was a stern lecture about wanting them to help out more — I have to be very careful and precise and honest in presenting this to you: My kids are not used to me being stern — they are used to me being “nice” — so this was new and different to them, but I assure you nothing abusive or out of the ordinary in what I think is pretty common and normal parenting especially with teenagers. I really am a very even keel person. So this daughter goes to her counselor the next day and rants about me, she is so upset, and the counselor reported me to CPS, which began an investigation, and I will cut to the chase:
Mandated therapy
We now have mandated family therapy: me, the 3 kids, the ex-husband and his wife! This is very interesting since I would really prefer “no contact,” and that would be much healthier and more appropriate for me. It is interesting and maybe useful for the kids now to see the way their dad really is during these sessions, which send chills down my back (especially the new wife and him together). The kids are getting very angry and fed up with him and his lies and his “impression management” at each session.
Read more: Our family wizard can help you co-parent with a sociopath
CPS “found” me “unsubstantiated neglect,” which is such a sad blow to me. Because I know it is unfounded. I know they did not do a fair and thorough investigation. And I know the investigator had her mind made up before she even came to see me. It was a hostile interrogation and she told me the allegation was that I “hate” my daughter and that I am “mentally unstable.” So this will be on my record (searchable database for prospective employers/volunteer agencies) for the next 5 years, until my youngest is 20 years old. I think this is insane. This is what the system is like. I think, why would the state expect a victim of domestic violence to be in weekly mandated counseling with her abuser? It makes no sense to me.
And this is where I am now — some things in the way society views sociopathy, domestic violence, etc. just do not make sense. My friends are even shaking their head and nervous — they say, “Gloria, if this can happen to you (CPS), this could happen to any of us. You are such a good mom!”
Why all the urging to women to leave our abusers, and THEN we are expected to co-parent with them? And the children are supposed to just be okay with all this?
Learn more: Proving parental alienation in court
Lovefraud originally posted this story on Aug. 26, 2011.
Letter to Lovefraud: I’m looking on POF, but I’m scared to move forward
Kathleen,
I really appreciate your very long and thoughtful response to my post. I have found your Healing from the Sociopath articles to be some of the most helpful things I’ve read on this site. So, I understand where you are coming from, even if I am not yet there myself (but on my way). You do such a good job of explaining different stage of healing, and having patience with ourselves and each other, at each stage of our journeys.
To clear up a few things you mention: I have twin girls. One of them keeps up with the visitation schedule and sees her dad every other weekend and one night during the week (we live very close to him; he moved to the neighborhood next to mine!). Up until 2 years ago, all 3 of the kids went back and forth, and I was trying to be a good co-parent and facilitate the kids’ relationship with their dad. Two years ago it all blew apart, when the OTHER daughter cut her wrists (I think it was just that one time, seriously — I know it can happen “underground” but I really think it was a one-time thing) and I was shocked, asked her what was going on, and she got this terrified look in her eyes and said, “Dad…” and mentioned 3 specific incidents which made sense to me (not sexual abuse) — basically, very controlling things, very punitive things, intrusive things (boundary violations), blaming her for being upset when he did these things, basically putting her in a real bind. You know what I’m talking about: he does upsetting things which cause you to be angry or hurt, and so you do the natural thing and tell him that his actions were hurtful, or you display angry or hurt emotions. Instead of his expressing empathy/remorse/listening/understanding, he turns the blame back on her and shames her for her feelings. It puts the victim in a terrible psychological bind.
So, I believe that is what happened. Not sexual abuse, and yes what I describe is bad enough! Emotional abuse.
So this is the daughter who refuses to see him, and she is also the one who got upset with me for being stern with her, and she ranted to her counselor. She didn’t “report” me or make false allegations, but the way she told her story to the counselor, I think the counselor jumped to conclusions. You know, my daughter said, “My mom and I had a terrible fight!” so they assumed child abuse. There were other things going on at the time that are interesting and helpful context, which would fill a book. But my point is that I do not believe my daughter ever intended to cause a CPS investigation or get me in trouble. I am her safe haven, and she simply had no idea how her rant to her counselor would play out. We have since talked about this and if nothing else… the CPS investigation has brought me and the 3 kids even closer, and has helped the two girls get closer, so that their dad cannot pit one against the other.
CPS interviewed my ex and his wife, and they took the opportunity to reinforce the investigator’s bias, and told CPS lies about my mothering. Rather than saying, “oh, you are mistaken about her — despite our differences, she is a great, safe, loving, non-neglectful mother,” they said really damning lies about me. I’m not saying I expected any differently. Just that, you can see how this went. It was a gift to them on a silver platter, for my daughter to go to her counselor and start this drama rolling.
This happened six months ago. The mandated therapy began 3 months ago. I found the Lovefraud site about 2 months ago. This whole experience is unfolding, very quickly. I’m learning a lot, very quickly. I only just started thinking of my ex as a sociopath about 2 months ago. Before that… I was thinking BPD or NPD but still it hadn’t really sunk in, and more importantly — I had no idea what to do about it! How I should “be,” and how I could help my children. Now, it has sunk in that this is who he is — a sociopath. But it is a shock, and I’m still reeling from it.
If I had known this stuff 6 months ago… I would have handled the entire CPS thing waaaaay differently from the get-go. But it took me completely by surprise. I was also trusting in the system, that OBVIOUSLY they were mistaken about me, and it would sort itself out quickly. Instead, it has been a severe emotional blow, and my trust and faith in the system has been shattered. I will recover from that, and I believe my trust NEEDED to be shattered. But it is still a painful shock.
It may be that I appear centered and together because I am a very tough cookie. I have been through a lot and I’m still standing. I love my kids fiercely and have always wanted them to grow up healthy and strong, so they could be independent adults who have healthy relationships. I’m determined to learn as much as I can in this lifetime, and get through each challenge wiser, stronger — and not maimed. But it IS very hard, and it really, really hurts sometimes. So yeah, sometimes I am sort of centered, and sometimes I struggle with my coping.
Back to the sexual abuse bit, because I don’t want to skip past that without this careful mention: about 2 months after my daughter cut her wrists, both girls came to me independently and told me that they felt “creeped out” by their dad’s behavior towards them. I listened carefully to them. 1) He came into their room at night, wearing only tight white briefs, to hug them goodnight, and they didn’t want him to be so unclothed around them (when they were 13). And they noticed he wore a robe into their brother’s room, but only his underwear in their room. 2) sometimes they would be standing at the kitchen counter, and he would come up “too” close behind them and his crotch would press against their butt. And they felt creeped out about it, but were afraid to say anything to him about it. 3) because they are twins, they were able to witness that their dad would admiringly ogle the other twin “from behind” as she would walk away (you know, look at their butts).
So, this concerned me and I took it seriously, and I told the girls they needed to address it with him if he ever does stuff that makes them uncomfortable, they need to demand that he stop. I also addressed it with him (you can imagine how he used this against me! How dare I criticize him in this way…), and I mentioned it to our son’s therapist asking for advice (the only therapist working with the family at the time), who reported it to CPS. My gut feeling at the time was that X had indeed crossed a line, but that he was not intending to take it further, that he was just oblivious and uncaring about how the girls felt and how he came across (remember, I didn’t identify him as a sociopath at the time), and that the girls were correct in feeling that their boundaries had been invaded. That doesn’t mean I felt they were safe! But since they go over there, without me there to intervene, since they have been 3 years old, I have taken the approach of trying to empower them to protect themselves, as much as possible. Now, unfortunately, the one girl is going over there all by herself!
I had to take the girls for a forensic interview (but I didn’t allow them to be examined physically because I felt that was unnecessary given the info I had, my gut feeling, and also that they were 13 and a physical exam would traumatize them), and based on the interview, the investigator came to the same conclusion I had — that no sexual abuse had occurred, and that he was probably just clueless about boundaries with girls entering puberty. The only difference is that they assumed he would stop, when they pointed out to him how the girls were perceiving him (they assumed he had the capacity to see another’s perspective). They didn’t realize that he doesn’t CARE about his daughters’ perspectives. They did nothing further, other than to admonish me, “this conflict between you and your ex-husband is bad for the children!”
My daughter who still goes over there is now 15, and she is getting very good at standing up to her dad. That does not mean I am not worried about her, though. But she and I have very good communication, and I am keeping fingers crossed and trusting that she will speak up if anything further like this should occur.
And… have I mentioned that CPS now views me as a neglectful mother, and possibly crazy and vindictive ex-wife? It’s not like I have any credibility with this agency. 🙁
Dear 20 years/Gloria,
BPD (in reference to your daughter who cut herself) is like most of the personality disorders, there are DEGREES of it, and even if your daughter has some of the tendencies, she may be on the low end of that spectrum.
I wish I could give you some “killer advice” on how to behave in the therapy sessions…I am afraid if you are too “bland” and emotionless, you will be branded “uncooperative” with therapy which could be a “death sentence” for your custody.
I agree, the therapists don’t seem to get NC, but seem to have this mandate that EVERYONE should/must have a relationship with their DNA donors no matter what! It is like the PARENT has a right to this until a kid turns 18 no matter how they have treated the kid (short of homicide).The kids have NO rights to stay away from people they don’t like.
You might think about some set “emotion” and “phrase” to parrot during the therapy sessions, like maybe tearfully saying “Oh, I just want my kids to be happy” or some other stock phrase or two that you can EMOTE to (LOL) to appear to be “cooperating” with therapy. I think you will in the end have to play it by ear each session with the therapist. Get the kids to talk as much as possible or as little as possible depending on how the X is acting. It will be a BALANCING act on your part because of the kids. You don’t want to traumatize them or get the therapist thinking you are not cooperating so you have to walk this KNIFE EDGE barefooted.
Do YOU have a separate therapist? I suggest that you get some therapy separate and apart from this “group torture” and maybe your therapist can suggest some techniques for you to use. It might be worth the cost even for short term therapy if you can find the right therapist or psychiatrist.
Interestingly enough an idea just occured to me….how about if you go to a psychiatrist (MD) and tell the MD what you are going through and what you’ve been through and maybe get her to suggest that there be a “vacation” from this very stressful therapy for YOUR HEALTH NEEDS….Maybe if you could get a break in this torture for a while it would give you some time to recover. Tell the MD what is going on and ask him/her to interveen, be honest with them about why you want to get out of these sessions at least for a while. If your doctor doesn’t agree, you don’t have to tell the therapist anything about you even having gone to see the doctor.
EB would call this “backspathing them” using some of the spath techniques to fight back…I know this carp must be making your life a living hell which is the purpose I am sure. (((hugs))) and God bless.
Thanks, Ox, yes I have my own wonderful therapist! Couldn’t do this without her…
Gloria/20years,
I had not read your 8:55 p;ost when Ii wrote my post. Glad you explained some things…makes more sense to me now. Yea, Ii agree with you that he was pushing the line “looking” at your girls and STRUTTING around them inn his underware…knowing what he was doing was pushing the line, and enjoying every moment of making them uncomfortable. Makes ME want to punch him! LOL (I can’t even imagine how you feel!)
Actually sounds like you have made a lot of progress in a few months and have some 20/20 hindsight, but KNOWLEDGE IS POWER, SO HANG IN THERE! Keep on reading and learning.
I am so glad you have your own therapist to help you through this night mare! God bless.
Hi Gloria/20years,
I can definitely relate to what your daughters are going through, having been through group therapy with my dad, his new wife, my real mom, her new husband, and two step-sisters! It was a mess.
The part I really want to speak up about is your daughter who cut her wrists. I know you might be thinking she has a disorder, but I know first hand how TORTUROUS having a P or spath father can be. Emotional abuse is WORSE in some ways, because my sisters and I felt we couldn’t turn to anyone–no one would understand. We WISHED he would just hit us so that we could report him to social services with bruises as evidence! The reason I say maybe consider that your daughter is in fact perfectly healthy is because of what my therapist said to me when I was going through this as a teenager (ages 13-15). After my therapist first considered every disorder in the book for me, she finally said, “There is nothing wrong with you. Any healthy individual would respond to your father the way you have. HE has a problem and you are responding.” This very well could be the case. Think of all the “crazy” things you did while in a relationship with him (Hmmm, or am I the only one who looked like a nutjob while dealing with an spath at home?). As soon as he was out of my life, problem solved. I am back to normal (a crying and recovering version of normal) and the problem is resolved: him. I think sociopaths cause a temporary insanity in their victims, and your daughters are victims of him! You were able to divorce him at least. They are just STUCK with the crazy man until they are 18 and even then, it will probably be awhile before they realize they can just ignore his phone calls. Then again, there could be more to her situation, but I think any child who is suffering from a sociopath or psychopath parent will act out as a result. She’s a victim of torture, and she’s just a little girl who is still learning her way life.
By the way, that sexual stuff he did is disgusting! I cannot believe that a therapist would promote children being forced to stand in the same room as someone who has “sexual predator” vibes oozing out of him towards the girls. Can you enroll them in a martial arts class? That way, if it ever goes further, they can knock him out. I knew a girl who was in group therapy with her mom and dad, and her dad had actually molested her extensively as a child. In my book, that’s a deal breaker for parental rights! What the heck are they in THERAPY for? He should have been in JAIL!
Best of luck! I know what you are going through is so hard! My heart goes out to your daughters for what they’re dealing with at such a young age.
Thank you, Panther. I cannot tell you how much it helps me to be able to hear from someone like you, who went through something so similar to what I think my children must be enduring. I have searched, and searched for information/books on the problem of… “children (who are not yet “adult children”) of (sociopaths).”
There is so little info out there! Maybe even none, except from people like you on websites like this.
I have read about the “enabling mother” who did not protect her children from abuse! I have never been that mother — I have always done my BEST to protect my children, but the bind I have been in is so unacknowledged by the experts (darned ivory tower experts). See… I LEFT my abuser. And I could not/did not get full custody of my children. I have shared custody. So he sees them regularly. But I did everything I could when my kids were little to NOT get a fulltime job, so I worked and earned in other ways, to be with them as much as possible, a a counterinfluence. I found strong, healthy male “father figure” mentors for them. I requested male teachers in my son’s elementary school classrooms. I was very present for my kids for so many years, until I finally ran out of money recently and had to go back to work full time. But I did it until my son was 17 and my daughters 15! I stayed home as long as I could.
But can’t be there to protect them or be a buffer, during the times they go to his house.
And I’m “not allowed to diagnose” him (you all know what I mean) so while he is conning everyone else and smearing me, folks (CPS, school) don’t know which of us to believe. Yes, he does all of this abuse behind closed doors. Sneaky guy.
In therapy, he smiles like the cat who ate the cream. He is not being real. He and his wife are smiling, sanctimonious snakes. It is so obvious to us, maybe the therapist is catching on but I am not sure.
Sorry for the long lead-up: I don’t think there is anything wrong with my daughter, either, other than she is more emotionally reactive and anxious than the other two children. She attracts more of her dad’s behavior (especially now that she is doing her normal individuation, pushing back — spaths hate that). She feels her feelings more intensely. But I do not think she is abnormal or diagnosable with ANYTHING like BPD.
I definitely was pretty normal myself for the first 30 years of my life before I met and married him. And I remember one “crazy” thing I’ll share with you that I did while married to him. I never wanted to lose it in front of the kids because I didn’t want to scare them by displaying weeping in front of them, even as he threw bowls of oatmeal at me which crashed into the window behind me. “I wasn’t aiming for you (derisively), I was aiming for the window!” I can still see the curious looks on my kids’ faces, to try to figure out my reaction. I still don’t know if my reaction was the right one or not, but I definitely didn’t want to scare my kids, so I just said, “wow!” and tried to look sort of calm and started wiping up the mess and broken dish (and closed the blinds so the neighbors wouldn’t see). You see, this was a long time ago — before I knew that this was “abuse.”
I just thought it was some tough work of marriage, a problem we had to work out.
Anyhow, not losing it in front of the kids. After about 30 minutes, I made my way up to my bedroom to the back of the walk-in closet and got way behind the clothes and covered myself up with blankets and hid, in the dark, and hugged myself and wept and silently as I could, for as long as I thought I could get away with it, then said, “you know, the kids are out there with HIM, and you need to get back before they notice you are missing.” And I splashed water on my face and pasted a smile there and went back and played with the kids. My husband/spath also pretended nothing was wrong.
I guess that was crazy of me. I just didn’t know what else to do at the time. But within 6 months of that, I woke up and left him.
But you can’t totally leave, you see, when you have kids together and he wants contact with them.
Hi 20years,
I understand what you’re describing so well. My mother tried to protect me as too, but my father threatened to take me away from her too! In fact…it was for a similar accusation. He told her that she was a bad and neglectful mother because she “let me do whatever I wanted” which was not true at all. My mom had many rules, including bedtime and no rated R movies etc. I saw him scare my mom so much that she’d be shaking as he screamed at her on the phone, calling her a bad mother and telling her that she was being selfish. I was very young at this time. None of this made sense. For the kids in this scenario, I can only speak for myself, but it’s confusing. Children usually think, at first, that their parents can do no wrong. The danger, then, is that I didn’t understand HOW WRONG my father was until I was a teenager, and not even fully until very recently, now that I am in my late 20s. By my teenage years, I’d become used to a lot of his abuse. Later in life, I went through 4 relationships with sociopath men and many other useless chaps before I realized that he’d worn down my sense of how a man had the right to treat me. Since my father had been the first man to abuse me the way a sociopath/psychopath does, that kind of behavior flew mostly under my dating radar. Luckily, I am still young-ish and can still find a healthy relationship. (I only managed to identify the real problem about 1 month ago).
Don’t be too hard on yourself. I know it’s tougher when you have kids. I watched my mom go through it. Would you believe that after he divorced his crazy wife (he is now on wife #6), long after I’d grown up and moved out of the house, he called my mom drunk and tried to convince her to run away to Mexico with him!!!! They really DO NOT GET IT when it comes to the damage they do. After all the crap he’d pulled, he thought she’d actually leave her current husband of 20 years and my little brother to go with him to Mexico!
The only thing I wish my mother would have done differently is maybe stand up to him better (which you are doing) and I REALLY wish she had told me that I didn’t deserve the crap he was putting me through. He broke her into pieces. Just his voice made her shaky, which is something I now recognize as a response to an abuser, as I’ve been there too. He just had to throw threats, and she’d cave in. I didn’t have a good example of a strong woman showing me how to deal with an abusive man. Also, I mentioned she didn’t tell me until much later that I didn’t deserve what he had done when I was young. For years, even after I was 18, she told me that I should have a relationship with my father. One day, I told her that I would be very happy in life if he died. She was appalled and scolded me for having such “dark” thoughts about my “own father!” A few months later, she came to me after hearing a radio program in which a speaker had explained that she was teaching her daughter that she should just “take it” when a man abuses her. She had wanted to raise a daughter with a motto similar to “treat others how you want to be treated” and “always try to be the bigger person.” I know she had the best of intentions, but she was dealing with a psychopath and needed a bit stronger advice for her impressionable daughter, I think. After being through this myself, I really do not blame her. This is HARD.
I can tell you are doing your best for your kids. It’s important for them to know that they are not crazy, just like you needed that validation. And you sound strong, so you’re setting a great example for them.
When the kids are 18, oh yes, you can “totally leave” if they are on the same page as you. I haven’t spoken to my father in years, neither has my mom. It’s like a mutual agreement that his time has FINALLY run out. This might not happen with your kids, but maybe he’ll fully piss them off in the next few years until they all write him off completely. Wouldn’t it be lovely if you could all just delete the guy?
I’m sending you the best wishes in your struggle.
Hi Panther,
Some of what you describe your mother saying/doing, describes the way I was operating… the being raised to “treat others how you would be treated” and wanting to pass that kind and good way of being on to my children… and encouraging them to work things out with their father (even though I couldn’t! But I kept trying, so I thought they should too). Jeez, it took a long time for me to see how this programming to always have good will and believe that others are similarly motivated by good intentions was harmful to me and the children. But something shifted in me, as it obviously eventually did in your mother.
It is so encouraging to hear that you do not blame your mother, and that you can understand how she was trying her best under very difficult circumstances, but just was not receiving the right advice because she was dealing with a psychopath, didn’t realize it, and no one else did either (or didn’t tell her). This information is not widely available. Getting more so, though. And I know it is the reason for this website, thank you Donna.
Now that things have shifted for me, in some ways it is MORE difficult for me, because I am bucking what the “experts” are telling me to do. I am validating my children, rather than telling them to have a relationship with their father, because he is “their father.” My extended family thinks I am misguided and I’m judging my ex too harshly. They want me to keep trying to be nice, to “make nice,” to keep the peace, “for the sake of the kids.” And that is just so misguided.
And I’m glad you mentioned, do I want to raise any of my children to just “take it” and be abuse victims? (or abuse others?) NO!!!!!
I do hope very much that things can change in the family court/child welfare system, so that more people in positions of power (who are misguided or misuse that power) will stop destroying families.
Honestly, the way it feels to me is that I am a victim of a home invasion by teenage thugs who have no regard for the careful tending, careful building, piece by piece, I have done over the years, my mothering, my nurturing and safe home, my loving, creative joy in providing this safe haven for my children to grow in (my home for the past 12 years, me and the kids) — invaded by this CPS investigator, two police officers and a student “intern” who threatened, intimidated me with a violent tirade of hurtful, false, preposterous allegation against me… yelling at me, berating me for the awful things I allegedly did (all false). it is a though they took a baseball bat and ran around my home, smashing things, and then left me sitting in the heap of detritus that used to be my peaceful, happy home, and did not even acknowledge the trauma they caused me and the children, through the threats of taking them away from me and telling me that with this “on my record” I will “never be allowed — never — to work with children ever again, in any capacity, employed or volunteer.”
At least they didn’t take my children away from me. I should be “happy” and “grateful” that they didn’t. I am. But I am also stunned at how the State can just barge into people’s homes and do this stuff to them.
Yes — I know it was “abuse.” I know not every CPS investigator is a bully. And I know the CPS two-fold mission is to “protect children” and “strengthen families” and they did anything but, in my case. and they get away with it, no acknowledgement, no apology, standing by their “finding.”
You do not have to believe me… but every one of the eight supporting statements they put behind their “finding” was absolutely false. It is such a helpless feeling, to be able to do nothing.
You guys do realize that they make their finding in secret, they collect evidence and do not show it to the accused “neglector” until after the finding is done and the case is closed… so the way it works is that you do not know the evidence against you until after their decision is made. you cannot challenge the record until after the fact. They do not “work with” you at all. And, for the falsely accused, you have no idea whom they’ve talked to and what has been said against you, until it is too late.
I know I’m not alone. Others have had this experience. I’ll get through it and past it.
Gloria,
Thanks for reading and responding to my post. I just wrote you a really long letter about getting clear about who you are — your values and your preferences — and using that to shape the situations in which you find yourself.
But at the end of it, I realized that I’m not talking about what’s urgent and important in your life. And I apologize in advance for being so blunt with you. But I think it’s that important.
You children are being sexually abused. It’s just beginning. This is how it begins. They’ve come to you with information, and within that information is in implicit request. Partially for guidance, which they will gather from the way you react. And partially for support. Not moral support, as much as real and material support.
I’m a child of an incestuous father, and it started pretty much like this for myself and my sister. He was, like your ex husband, a bully and an emotional abuser — both through tearing us down and emotionally blackmailing us to feel sorry for him and to try to protect the other children. He was always triangulating us between him and my mother. It was a complicated situation for a child to handle, because he was our father and we were attached to him and hungry for the normal things that children (even teenaged children) looks to their parents for.
You are fortunate that they bring their concerns to you. This is an opportunity for you to teach them, by modeling the behavior of someone who does not accept victimization or collaborate with it.
In reading your posts, I think your ability to learn and to distance yourself enough from painful and even scary situations so that you can observe rationally and apply what you are learning is admirable. But I am concerned about one thing. I think your pain tolerance is too high. Probably because of that difficult background you mention. Andl because of this high pain tolerance, you are too inclined to cope rather than fight.
And please forgive me if that sounds like a criticism. It’s not meant to be anything but a personal observation, and one that may be entirely wrong. I don’t live in your shoes, and I don’t know all the pressures and complications that you live with.
But I am suggesting to you that there are lines, boundaries of toleration that, once crossed, become a reason to go to war. And that doesn’t mean getting hysterical or acting in any way without thinking and strategizing. Rather, I am suggesting that you recognize that this situation has now gone over the line, and you are at war.
The impact of any sort of parental abuse is significant, because the child is not just being wounded or violated, but also taught the way the world works in ways that cause the child to develop beliefs and rules for living that incorporate these assumptions of how the world works. Emotional abuse is bad because it’s so difficult for a child to defend herself against the parent’s apparent “truth” about her, the child. Physical abuse is terrible, because it communicates the parent’s lack of concern about whether the child lives or dies (and that is exactly how a child interprets this incomprehensible behavior from the person that she turns to for physical shelter and support). But sexual abuse incorporates both of those things and adds a particularly nasty twist, because it teaches the child the necessity to give up the most personal level of integrity and privacy in order to be accepted and survive.
No matter how emotionally healthy your children may be, the challenge presented by this situation is unmanageable. And to the extent that they are left to their own devices to manage it — that is, sent back into that environment and told to try to handle it, or told to manage their feelings because it’s probably not really that bad, or encouraged to rationalize or “understand” the perpetrator’s behavior — they are being abandoned.
Your first challenge in all of this is to be clear that this is not all right. First within yourself, and then to communicate it to your girls. This is what you believe, you tell them. This is not all right. It is unacceptable behavior. Whatever his intentions, whatever is wrong with him, it would not be acceptable from anyone else, and it is not acceptable from him. The fact that he is their father and so has a closer relationship with them and more ability to go get physically close to them makes it worse. He is taking advantage of his position in their lives. And doing things that go beyond making them feel uncomfortable. This is not good for them. This is how you view it. And you hope this how they view it too. Unwanted, uninvited intimacy is always bad. No exceptions.
You don’t have to force them to agree with you. Just tell them how you feel about it. And stay consistent. If they try to waffle about it, to give him the benefit of the doubt. Say you understand, and that you know this is a difficult situation. And you’ve always tried to help them maintain their relationship with their father. And you are sorry you have to be ademate in a way that they may feel puts them on the spot. But it doesn’t change the fact that this is wrong. And if they don’t think so, ask how they would feel if their friends knew about it, or if he behaved that way with their friends. They already know it’s wrong. But you understand that implications of facing it may be hard for them, because they are big implications. It means that they are no longer safe in that house.
And again forgive me if it sounds like I’m lecturing you, or if I’m telling you what you already know. If you do, and this is what you’re already doing, I hope you take it as confirmation that you’re doing the right thing.
The work you do with the girls will underpin everything else that you have to do about this. It is crucial that they understand you are their champion and you intend to keep them safe. And that you know, even if they don’t recognize it yet, that abuse of any kind is progressive. And if this is not stopped now, it’s going to move into areas will make it increasingly more difficult for them to talk about it and to maintain their sense of themselves. This is not to scare them, but to reinforce the importance of taking it seriously.
Then you need to discuss with them the options of what you can do, not just you alone but you and them. Ask them what they feel comfortable doing about it. Tell them that you can take strong measures to protect them, but you don’t want to do anything that they don’t support. So have a discussion, or a few discussions that leave them time to talk together and think about what they want to do.
They may want to try to work things out with him by themselves at first. If so, encourage them to talk with him about how uncomfortable this makes them feel, until they get a response from him that convinces them that he understands and will honor their need for personal boundaries. It’s important they are honest about their feelings and needs with him. Also encourage them to do it together, so they can serve as each other’s witness in what happens. Confirm over and over that your only objective is their safety and their freedom to grow up without having to deal with things that harm them or are beyond their ability to manage. If either of them suggests that you are “against” their father, ask if they think you should just back away and let this happen to them. If they say they can deal with it, just let them know that you’re there for them when they feel like they can’t. But you too have issues with this, and you are very concerned for them.
Eventually, you should be able to get them on board for your next step, which is action to keep them away from him. Getting them on board is obviously essential, because if they don’t support your allegations of abuse, then you’re not going to get anywhere.
You have a number of options in approaching this. One is to simply stop sending them there (with their support). Another is to bring in child services. Another is to use the police. Another is to reopen the custody case. If he fights, it’s probably going to get legal anyway. But the more prepared you are, and the more clear the girls are about not going back and commited to protecting their own safety, the more easily and quickly this is going to go. They are old enough to influence the judicial proceedings about custody arrangements.
I realize that one of the greatest challenges you face right night is taking this seriously. First you, then them, then the system. And it might have to get worse before that happens. But if there’s anything you get from this post, I hope it’s that one person in the world (me) is taking it very seriously right now. And if you want to be another one, you’re not alone. My email address is under the contributors link, and you’re welcome to get in touch.
So that’s it. I hope I haven’t offended or upset you, and that at least some of this makes sense.
Kathy
Hi Kathy,
First, no I am not at all offended, and I appreciate ALL of what you have written. As you have noted, I do have this quality of detaching a bit to hover above and observe the situation. I see it both as a coping mechanism (useful in some ways, counterproductive in other ways) and also as a way of discerning facts from emotionally-laden fiction. Yet, I also use my gut (emotions). None of it is foolproof!
So, I never assume that I have finally figured everything out, and I’m always open to new information that might prove my assumptions wrong. Particularly where the safety and wellbeing of my kids is concerned.
From that place, then, I’d like to ask you what it is about what I’ve written so far, which leads you to be so sure that my girls are being sexually abused. I was NOT (so grateful for this) sexually abused as a child, so I may not have the radar. My ex-husband DID sexually abuse me while we were married (this is still hard for me to think and talk about, but mostly involved his own gratification and humiliation of me and simply not caring that I was distressed that he forced himself on me in that dehumanizing way, repeatedly throughout our marriage).
But back to the kids. I, too, saw what the girls told me (2 years ago they told me) about his behavior, as possible “grooming” behavior. I cannot know for sure if this behavior is continuing, though I am pretty sure it is NOT since I called him out on it when I became aware of it (2 years ago), but I believe my one daughter who goes over there would tell me. I guess there is a chance that she would not. Do you have advice for me on how to talk to her about this? (or are there books with advice?)
I need to be careful. I am NOT afraid to get my mind around this, but it is a tricky problem. Absolutely, I would fight for my kids and get over any guilt I feel that would hamper such a fight. I’m a fiercely protective mother!
But what if I’m wrong… how can I be certain, one way or another? Certain that she is safe (safe enough — because I do not feel it is safe for the kids to be around their sociopathic father even if he is NOT sexually abusing them — but absent any PROOF the courts would not deny him visitation based on my assertions that he is a sociopath — you know this).
How can I be certain, alternatively, that he IS sexually abusing them? I would believe my daughter if she told me specific details (as I believed them, what they told me 2 years ago). But what if she says “no Mom, everything is fine. Dad is a dick, but he is not doing sexual abuse on me.” Should I believe her then, or keep digging and not believing her? (because of the frog boiled in water analogy, where she has been so effectively groomed that she does not recognize the abuse, or does not see the danger).
Then there is the CPS finding on me of “neglect.” This occurred within the last 6 months (investigation began 6 months ago; finding of “neglect” was just this month). My credibility has been so eroded by this. I can see how this would go in court! My ex would be believed, and I would be portrayed as a crazy, vindictive ex-wife making false sexual abuse accusations! (perhaps in revenge for the CPS finding, right?).
When I raised this with social services 2 years ago, they agreed that while he was inappropriate with the boundaries, it had gone no further and hadn’t crossed any lines which required that they investigate further (the irony is not lot on me, how he is clearly unsafe and sociopathic and they declined to investigate, yet I am completely safe and all 3 kids would swear to it, but weren’t asked, and they threw everything they had at me — short of removing my kids from my home).
I was also dumbfounded at the time(2 years ago) to realize that they were investigating ME, as well! To see if I was one of those false sexual abuse accusers. (Jeez… I thought those bad women who falsely accuse their ex-husbands do it DURING THE DIVORCE as part of the custody battle — not wait 10 years of reasonably cooperative-seeming co-parenting and then suddenly let loose with the accusations).
I don’t want to divert from the point of your message. It may sound like I’m making excuses. I’m not intending to. Rather, I’m pointing out my caution in proceeding, and wondering what it was in my postings which alarmed you so much, that you think there is sexual abuse (maybe define it for me) occurring right now. So that I need to take some sort of immediate action, and to what degree, and what am I looking for?
I mean, I also think it is entirely possible that he is “just” sociopathic who is doing awful stuff that is indeed sexually abusive but never puts a toe over the line of anything that can be prosecuted or used as evidence to remove the children. He might sidle up to that line and stay just on that side of it, making the children very uncomfortable, keep my daughter on edge (I’m not saying I have evidence of this — just that this is what he would LIKELY do — he has enough impulse control that he would deliberately “tease” that he is sexually abusing, to use as bait to get me to accuse him, then turn that around on me and blame me and use as evidence of my parental alienation . I am not kidding — THAT is EXACTLY how he operates.). He has effectively conned many therapists into thinking I am the crazy one. Ugh.
I absolutely do not want to miss this, though, if it is going on, and I have been looking the other way. I am open to hearing whatever you have to say. But I will be very discerning and measured in my sorting through all of it. And fight hard if necessary.
I will send you my email address. But I wanted to respond here, in case others have valuable insights to offer me. My kids’ safety and wellbeing come FIRST.
Thanks…