By | September 27, 2010 174 Comments

LETTERS TO LOVEFRAUD: Should I warn the next victim?

Lovefraud recently received the following e-mail from a reader who posts as “forever_me:”

Hello. I am looking for some guidance. I was in a romantic relationship with a P for over 2 years, but just broke it off earlier this week. I discovered that he was using an online dating site and was able to access it because I knew the patterns of his passwords. I created a bogus profile on the same website and contacted one of the women he was messaging. She was shocked to hear from me because my P told her he was single and not dating anyone. What was worse was that they had engaged in unprotected sex a few days before my P and I had unprotected sex. We agreed to meet each other to discuss the details of our relationships with this man. She had been dating him for just over a month.

After my conversation with this woman, I wanted answers from my P, although at this time I didn’t realize that was what he was. I was persistent in my confrontation with him, which took 3 hours of dealing with blatant lie after lie. He initially denied dating anyone else or knowing about the dating site, then claimed he was letting a friend use his identity to cheat on a fiance, then finally admitted he did go on a few dates with the woman I had contacted through the site. However, he swore that he’d never had sex with her or anyone else since we’d been together. In fact, the woman I met was actually stalking him and trying to turn me against him since he rejected her. I eventually walked out the door when he told me he was sorry, not for his actions, but because I was under the misunderstanding we were a couple instead of just friends with benefits. lt is worth noting that during the course of our dialogue, he casually picked up the newspaper to read it and briefly watched the local news as if we were just having a typical evening together.

I was so bewildered by his lies and behavior after I left that I began searching the internet and stumbled upon this blog. Reading the many entries made me realize that I had been involved with a P. All the little red flags added up and I’m coming to terms with the truth. This site has expedited my healing and I thank everyone involved for that!

Now my conscience is wondering if I should continue to warn other women about him? He changed his password but I have once again figured it out. The woman I contacted before was glad I did. I don’t plan to meet any of these women going forward, but just send them a note of concern under cover to let them know what to watch for if they decide to date him. I know I can’t do this forever since he could change his password again or switch dating sites, and I need to move on with my life as well. The advice I’ve read here says I should just walk away since I have no financial, legal, or career ties to him. Several women are currently corresponding with him. Since he’s independently wealthy, handsome, and charming, they’ll be hooked soon enough. Should I just let it go or contact these women knowing I’ll save a few of them from the pain he’ll surely inflict?

Should she try to warn the next victim, or shouldn’t she? This has been the topic of much debate here on Lovefraud. I last wrote about this topic in a blog post back in 2007. But it’s an important issue, so let’s discuss it again.

Factors to consider

If you’re considering warning others about the sociopath, here are factors to consider:

1. Can you warn someone safely?

The first thing to consider, of course, is your physical safety. If the sociopath you were involved with has a history of violence, even if the violence was never directed towards you, I would urge caution.

But safety involves more than worries about violence. Consider also your legal and financial status. If you are in the midst of a divorce or custody battle with your ex, you do not want to do anything that will jeopardize your case, your job, or anything else that he may be able to damage through accusations.

No matter how badly you may feel for the next target, you must put yourself first.

2. What is your emotional state?

Relationships with sociopaths inflict emotional and psychological damage on us. The best way to recover from the damage is to have no contact with the sociopath.

Tracking a sociopath’s actions is sometimes gratifying, however, because we feel like we’re no longer being conned. We see through the mask. We know what he or she is up to. In a way, it’s a boost to our trampled self-esteem to be on to the con. And yes, we probably have to admit to wanting a taste of revenge by ruining the sociopath’s game.

But even if we’re not talking to the sociopath, or sending e-mail, we have to remember that keeping tabs, and warning others, is a form of contact. As we say here on Lovefraud, the predator is still renting space in our brains.

So, before you do it, think about where you are in your recovery. Can you do this and continue to heal?

3. Will the victim’s reaction affect you?

We know how good the sociopaths are, because we were hooked. Think of how the sociopath described his or her prior involvements to you. Did he say his ex-wives were mentally disturbed? Did she say her ex-husband was a stalker? Well, that’s what is now being said about you.

The sociopath is already running a smear campaign to discredit anything that you may say. At the same time, the sociopath is love bombing the new victim. He or she is primed to disbelieve you.

If the new victim blows you off, can you just walk away?

My view

In my personal opinion, if you can warn the next victim without jeopardizing your own safety and recovery, I think you should at least try.

I’ve heard of cases where the victim was grateful for the warning and got out. I’ve heard of cases where the next victim has refused to listen and stayed with the sociopath. And I’ve heard of cases where the victim stayed for awhile, then started to see the bad behavior, remembered the warning, and got out.

I know that since I’ve posted the information about my ex-husband, James Montgomery, online, at least seven women have contacted me to thank me for the warning. They Googled his name, found Lovefraud, and dumped him. I don’t know how many may have dumped him without telling me. This makes me feel good.

However, James Montgomery is on the other side of the world. I’ve had a chance to recover and move on. He can’t damage me.

So if you feel like you need to warn others, remember this: Your first obligation is to yourself. Do what you must do for your own recovery. If you can assist others without hurting yourself, that is icing on the cake.

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Dani S

Hi forever_me,
So glad you found this wonderful site… In my own experience I warned my ex husband spath’s girlfriend after me. She didn’t leave him and believed his lies. But what it did was gave her something to think about and over time when he cheated and dump her, stole a lot of money off her, her blinkers came off and she saw him for who he was. She wasted a year with him and in the end contacted me and we remain in contact.
I also warned the next girlfriend that he is currently been with for 12 months. She of course believes him but she will now have another reference for this person when things start to unravel.
Now I have moved on enough not to care anymore who he is with or who I need to save because at the end of the day I only need to save myself from him and warning every women that comes in his life is exhausting re living my life with him.

Your ex’s words, actions and behaviour when you questioned what he was doing is very typical of them.

I must also say, I am now close friends with my ex husband’s ex girlfriend, the mother of one of his children. I said to her when I finally left him ” Why didn’t you tell me”, she responded with ” because you wouldn’t have listened”.

I have mixed feelings about warning everyone because basically there are too many women, they change all the time, I am happy to talk to any that seek me out but I am done with his life interfering in mine….
All the very best wishes and keep looking forward 🙂


I am so sorry this happened to you.

I think Donna just said something very insightful – she said even tracking the “P” or emailing others to warn them is a form of contact, and it should be avoided. I think she’s right. Even lovefraud is a form of contact, isn’t it?

Why is it that relationships like these make normal people – like you, or me – do crazy things like crack passwords and be private investigators? I’d never done that before I met my psychopath. I’ve been in therapy over this, and I’m afraid to tell my therapist about this. She has personally never been involved with a psychopath so I’m sure she can’t understand it. Even I can’t understand it. Why do I care so much?

Also, I will say this, I contacted the ex-wife (and present housemate) of my psychopath. I asked her if she was still sleeping with him. She just sounded meek and said “no”.
She didn’t say anything to me to warn me. I am totally pissed off. I ASKED and she didn’t warn me. So I think there is a fine line here of making yourself available and answering truthfully, and going to search out his potential victims and tell them. The latter requires a lot of energy and is probably over the line.

That’s my opinion.

kim frederick

I, personally would love to talk to Xspath’s victims, both those that came before me and the one who came after…just for validation!

But, I am far enough along this path of recovery that I don’t think it would have much effect on me, either way. As far as warning the one/ones that came after, I would, without any expectation that she would believe me, and I would also be very aware of my true motives…how much of warning her is really just revenge seeking, and a desire to ruin his game?

I can certainly understand that motive, and in being honest with myself, I would have to admit that it is a part of it.

For me it’s more important to heal my wounded spirit, and part of my problem is co-dependancy, so…warning her is not my job. Taking care of me is my job. Being the best person I can be is my job.

If she approached me, however, I would warn her.

kim frederick

Superkid, I don’t think sharing on LF is contact…it’s a healing place where we share our experience, strength and hope.

In the beginning, we may come here through our grief, fear, confusion, and anger. We may need answers, or insight, or validation, or just a kind word.

We work through the various stages and levels, and eventually we see the light at the end of the tunnel. At this point we make a choice…we can stay, and use LF support to help us with our everday challenges, so that we continue to learn and grow, and stay on the healing path, where we can also lend a hand to the new folks, or we move on, happy for what we’ve gleened.

What we don’t want to do is stay stuck. We don’t want to come here, for months maybe years, and do nothing but whine, complain, and point fingers. It’s fine to work through lousy emotions, but at some point we have to let it go, and focus on ourselves.

So, in that respect, if LF is only used to re open athe wound, or to trigger our memorys of abuse, or re-fuel our resentment, then, yes, it is klike having contact with the spath.

Somewhere in the archives is an article entitled, “No Contact begins in your Mind”.

We have to want to heal, and not want to keep tearing off the scab. I hope that makes sense.

People who are recovering from addictions, often remain in 12 step programs for life, because it is a tool they can use to find a sense of purpose, and peace of mind, and it’s healthy for them. So, I think it’s just fine for us to keep coming back to LF, as long as we are moving steadily in the right direction.

Dani S

Beautifully said! 🙂

kim frederick


Ox Drover

I have been both the warn-er and the warn-ee and not had any luck either way. The ones I warned didn’t listen, and in fact infuriated the P and themselves at ME, and the ones who warned me, I Totally blew off.

I think in MANY IF NOT MOST cases it is wasted effort and uses us YOUR emotional energy worrying about something you can do nothing about.


A*N*Y*O*N*E– unless you have known this person for a long time are in a committed relationship with them (more than just living together or dating) and 100% trust this person.

This is just my medical background talking I guess but I feel it is my duty to “warn” you because I know it is a dangerous behavior—are you going to listen or blow my advice off? See the point?


Kim, well said.

Regarding sending out a “warning”: Forget about HIM, or HER. Think about YOU. Is this the best thing for YOU to do at THIS time? Will this ASSIST your recovery, or jeopardize it?


Sage advise.
I am pondering this topic.

Who’s knows……..

Ox Drover

Dear EB,

You asked—here it is. GIVE HER HARD DOCUMENTARY EVIDENCE, no opinion, just EVIDENCE—copy of the complaints, news articles about his arrest or anything that is hard evidence.

And then just say something like “Susie, I thought you need to know what you are getting into with John. I couldn’t in good conscience allow you to take up with a drug dealing criminal without at least warning you.”

Then SHUT UP. She can either take it and run with it or she can keep on the road she is going. That is what I did with Grandpa.

I think I could not have slept at night if that crank-ho had killed him and I had done nothing. As it is. I called the law and she was arrested for her crimes. If he manages to get her out and goes and gets her, not my problem, even if she knocks him in the head and kills him now, I did the best I could. He is NOT out of his head or senile enough that he can legally be restrained from associating with her. I called his daughter and gave her my opinion about his mental status and what was going on and she and I agree that there is nothing we can do to protect him, or get him to listen to reason.

He is so lonely since his wife died, he is not about to stay down in that holler alone if he can help it, and if the only woman he can get is a crach-ho, then that is what he will go for. For him, it beats nothing.


I understand the debate. I’ve had it MANY times. I think it just depends where you are in your recovery and what your TRUE motivations are for doing it. If you TRULY have NOTHING to lose, INCLUDING relapsing in your recovery, then I SAY, give it a shot.

Just be damn sure you know why you are doing what you are doing and you don’t pay the price for it.

I still think that no matter what mental gymnastics you play with yourself, you are STILL IN IT, when you are focused on ANYTHING to do with the EX. I can understand that we can tell ourselves that it’s a “noble gesture” to warn someone else and how WE wished someone had warned us too. But really it keeps you in it. Recovery is about moving out of it.

The last “justification” is to say, “I’ll do this and then I’ll never return to any dramas with the EX again”. A last Hurrah, if there is such a thing in this case. And there is some sense of power in it. Like “I’ll get the last laugh”. But I think it’s a false sense for many reasons.

I know the feeling of thinking that someone else might be wasting their life AND a CHILD might even be brought into the disaster. I also know the feeling of being SO ANGRY that they just waltz into yet another woman’s life, who love and adores them and off they go. Tra-la-fucking-la.

And as much as I get ENRAGED at the thought of how damn easy it is for him to walk away and how I am all but immobilized by the final end of our relationship, FOR ME, at the stage that I AM, to venture out into that drama is not something I care to put myself through. Not right now, anyway.

kim frederick

What the heck, EB, you said you have nothing to lose, and it would’t require much effort…Just don’t have any expectations, let the out-come of your actions go.


Currently i’m sitting waiting for my gut to unconstipate.


The other thing I want to mention is that I think the “warning of the new victim” is a way to “get around” the No Contact Rule.

Regarding the No Contact Rule…..Wow, only ONE FRICKIN’ rule, but WHAT a DOOZY! Here’s a trick I use, that others may find helpful.

When I feel I just can’t stand it anymore, I write what I would say if I were to contact my ex again. THEN, I wait…..Could be 5 minutes, could be 10 minutes, could be an hour. Then I RETURN to what I wrote and I say, “What have I said to him here that I have not said to him before?” I’m AMAZED at how the answer is always “NOTHING”.

Not ONLY have I said it all before, I’ve said it all about 1000 times before. So I let it go. Each day I let go a bit more. But BOY the urge to hang on is mighty powerful.

Ox Drover

RIGHT ON, KIM! “let the outcome of your expectations go.”

EB if you knew there was a snake in the grass on the path someone was walking you would WARN them. Same thing here. You KNOW this woman is about to step on a snake. You warn her and then it is TOTALLY her responsibility if she does or not.

Mail her the documents and don’t sign it. Or if you know her or someone else knows her, hand them to her and then drop the subject. It is up to her. Shes over 21 and has I assume SOME sense so she is responsible for what she does with the information, but I think in this case, I would at least feel responsible for making the information AVAILABLE.

Just like I did with grandpa. I made information avaialbe to him and he KNOWS this woman is a druggie/drunk/criminal and continues to drink, and he still wants to associate with her. It is on HIS head now, not mine. I will still feel bad if she hurts him, but I will NOT FEEL RESPONSIBLE…or guilty.

He is alone with her because like my egg donor he is determined to save her and she gives him what he wants—attention—and he allows her to isolate him from anyone who did/does care about him. Cost me about $100 bucks and a few hours of my time, but he’ll get no more money (I will give him food, even if she eats part of it) but I’ve learned another “all purpose life’s lesson” and will file it away for next time I need it. Tuition in the UNIVERSITY OF HARD KNOX” (UHK) for my postdoctoral studies!


Look out!

Ox Drover

EB we posted over each other—I think copies of legal docuemnts or news articles LIKE THE “Local coach charged in Felony drug bust” and so on, along with anything that is public record that would show up his wolf’s skin under the sheep skin. Maybe mail a copy to the friend AND to the victim. That way if the friend doesn’t “share” the victim still gets it. Also if her friend has a copy too and does share the vic knows that OTHERS KNOW so it might prompt her to take action more than if she was the only one in on the SECRET knowledge.

At least it would clear your conscience and if she stays with him, it is 100% on her head, no “she didn’t know” excuse, because she DID know. Just like I feel better now that I know GRANDPA KNOWS!

kim frederick

I love your advise, Callista. What does this letter say, that has never been said, before. Zip, zilch, nada, nothing….but we sure hold on to the fantasy that one day we’ll find the magic trick that suddenly turns on the light switch and lo and behold, they have empathy and remorse and see the error of their ways…don’t we? All the time we’re in turmoil trying to figure out how to fix it, them or us, so we can continue to hold on to something we just cannot be honest with ourselves about. Sheeeeesh.


I too am a decent and kind human being……and no one deserves this highway to hell.

kim frederick

Well, I just took the high road, and invited my SOL and step GD to my GD’s B-day party, (dinner and cake and Ice-cream).

We are currently embroiled in a huge power-struggle, and I have been trying very hard not to react as he continues to escalate the conflict…using guilt and character assination techniques to get at me. Texting my daughter how much he loves her, and then me how I’m ruining her life…how I choose drugs and alcohol over her in the past, and I am trying to ruin their family. I don’t respond. But I have maintained a position of withdrawl from him, and would like to bury the hatchet.

He has commented that her entire teen-age years were contaminated by my alcoholism. Here’s the truth: I started trying to get sober when she was 10. Would stay sober 3 months, relapse for a couple of days, and start over, get sober for 6 mos. relapse for a week and start over. That went on till she was 12, when I was finally successful. I stayed in my marriage for 6 more years, sober and clean and working a program, left the marriage when she was 18. Got a BA in Literature, and got through 3/4 of an MA program.

I continue to work the 12 steps to this day, for both co-dependancy issues and addictions. I have been devouring all I could on detachment, building boundrys, and avoiding manipulation.

I realize that my daughter, (now 32), my SIL, and myself are in an unhealthy relationship. We are all Co D’s, and he is an addict trying to kick his addiction without a program. She usually defends me and is up to here with him, his domineering attitude and control issues. I DON’T WANT TO BE RESPONSIBLE FOR THM BREAKING UP.

The text to SIL is the first contact I’ve had with him in a week, and I am trying to take the high road. Have not recieved any response.

I live with them, and understand they aren’t responsible for me, but I have no option at this point.

I have not been able to find a job, so am providing day-care full time for my other daughter. I get paid about half as much as she would pay day-care and it seems to be a good option for all concerned, except it isn’t enough to live on…but I’m trying, and I don’t think SIL abuse is warrented or healthy. I wish he’d work a program. His own addiction is probably the main problem my daughter has with him. Comments?



I detect a small scale of anxiety in knowing that your X-Spath is with a seemingly “perfect woman” and she’s living his illusion! …… BUHUMBUG!!!!! ……..To break it to her or not? NO,NO,NO

I was told that the X-S in my life, is now dating a woman who is everything he’s been looking for….nice, smart, has money, loves to travel and loves to dance. I know her. He started corting her while still spewing his viral lies to me of “love you”…yada, yada, yada. He even took the woman to a “honeymoon” trip to Niagra Falls this last weekend (I was told)! I have known this woman through the ballroom dance community we all belong to and warned her about him 2 years ago during one of those break ups when he cheated on me! did that keep her from falling into his trap? NO!!!!!! Did my warning her and her seing me go through all the on and off crap with him keep her away? NO! SHE HAS TO FIND OUT FOR HERSELF ON HER OWN TIME WITH HER OWN EXPERIENCE.

Am I hurt and feel some jelousy that he’s now “in love” and doing all the things he did with me when he was “good” with her? yes…but I know he’s only an illusion…a con artist who will manipulate to get his needs met and then spew her out….. she will soon find out on her own. In the mean time, I wont say a word….and when I do see them together as I know I will because we all travel in the same circle, I will just feel sorry for her.

I have nothing to gain….because I will only be viewed as the “scorned ex-lover”.


Ox Drover

Dear Kim

Knowing what the problem is, and who is responsible for what, is 98% of the solution to the problem in my opinion.

I’m a little hazy on which SIL is in the power struggle with you, the one you live with or the one you don’t live with. Do you keep kids for both daughters or just one? (couldn’t figure out why the SIL that you lived with would e mail or text you)

1) your LONG PAST relationship and behavior with drugs/alcohol, or whatever I don’t think should be a subect of conversation with anyone. If it was “past” like YESTERDAY that would be a horse of a different color. He is obviously trying to drive a wedge between you and her.

2) I think your tactic of NOT responding to him (can you block him?) is the best way, it is a “potted plant” routine and in person you just SAY NOTHING AND WALK AWAY—leave him screaming behind you if necessary but don’t react OR respond.

3)If she starts to buy into this because of his “triangling” of trying to show himself as the RESCUER and you as the ABUSER and her as the VICTIM, his “proof” is PRETTY WELL SHOP WORN…which means it shouldn’t have much validity to someone who is not also looking for ANYTHING to slap you with.

What’s the power struggle over? Is this the SIL you live with
and he wants you to leave? What does your daughter want?

I would do my “dealing” with HER ONLY and not with him at all. She is making a choice to STAY with him even though he is behavior this way, but neither you nor her HAVE TO PLAY this “Game” of musical chairs of VICTIM, RESCUER, PERSECUTOR….it is all just a part of HIS PROBLEM and HIS FAILURE TO REALLY GET A PROGRAM GOING. If she wants to stay with someone like that, that is HER PROBLEM, not yours so I would be careful and not let yourself try to RESCUE HER because then you are still in the “game” just a different chair!

Maybe you could get a job at a day care that would be enough to support you, and you could stay with a friend until you could get a more stable place to stay. I know jobs are hard to find right now, but sometimes we have to take what we can get in order to get out of some unhealthy situations. Keep your chin up, Kimmie, you’ve already come a LONG way since you first came to LF! I will vouch for that! (((Hugs)))


I became friends with my one time “arch enemy”…his X GF! She tried to warn me about him at one of the points in the past when we were broken up….and I didn’t listen, couldn’t believe her, nor did I want to hear it! I thought her to be a jelous ex GF who just wanted him back.

We are now friends and allthough she gotten over the emotional relationship with him, she still keeps contact with him occasionally as a platonic friend. She reminds me, that he will come after me again….as he did with her, even while still in a relationship with me. They don’t stop, they don’t go away and they still maintain an emotional bondage on all of us exes….even after all the dust is settled…..and we go NC!



I love your wait 5 min/10 min etc….I still want to make him get it at times. When I go back and read the emails I sent in the heat of it…you’re right its all the same. I rarely said anything “different” I may have called him out on something new that I discovered…pointed out a new lie…but basically the same. But is it wrong for me to want him to know EVERYTHING I discovered. I know he hates being called out so I think I felt like that was the only “power” I had then. If me pointing out all his lies, deception, and manipulation didn’t make him feel remorse at least it made him feel anger…it made him feel something!!!! I think I’m moving past that now…

Forever – As for the warning the new girl. I did. I actually emailed her to confront her about her role in the betrayal (she pursued him knowing he was in a relationship) She actually asked to talk to me…so I did. When she told me that he was already borrowing from her, some of the lines he told her were the same as what he told me…etc I felt like I should fill her in more. I did…for hours….she sat there seemingly shocked. Her response….”I can’t just walk away…he told my kids he loved them…I need an exit strategy.” She even told me that he was angry with her for even talking to me. (of course it was HER fault!!!!) Her exit strategy….a month later they move in together!!!!! Guess that strategy didn’t work.

I thought when I talked to her that I really wanted to help her…I now see that her response mattered more to me than I thought. I just never thought she would move forward so fast after our conversations.

I actually feel somewhat sorry for her….she was/is married to another man who might be a spath too. He might just be a mooch…not sure. But the way she described her relationship with her husband reminded me of my relationship with D. So she thinks she got something better!!! Then again I’m sure it feels like heaven…it always did for me!!!

So…I don’t know if I’d warn anyone again. If I knew they would listen…I’d spill my guts in a heartbeat. But I know that even with the proof I have he is a master manipulator and spinner…I am not!!
And…it just makes the mixer of emotions start turning. So as much as I hate to think of just me….when it comes to ANYTHING concerning him…I get to think of JUST ME!!!

Aeyla and EB- your descriptions of “her” sound exactly like my ex’s her. All the same patterns. That is often the part that hurts the most. Thinkin that she is perfect…and I wasn’t. Thanks for reminding me that she is perfect…the perfect target. I don’t want her to feel what I have but it helps to read reminders of the truth that HE hasn’t changed…she didn’t bring out a different him…it may look perfect but it’s not!!!

kim frederick

Oxy, he is the SIL I live with. I go out of the house 5 days a week to baby-sit my other daughter’s two youngest kids. He texts me there, or if I am at home and he is out.

Yeah, I just read a couple of articles on triangulation.

Yes, he wants me to move, and he wants her to support him in that.
however, she just caught him using again, after claiming he had been clean for a few months…They both sell real estate, are partners, and he hasn’t been pulling his weight…she’s paid the bills for the last couple of months…not really a problem, as he has potentiall, and she’s seen him be very successfull and productive for long periods in the past, but thelieing, and using is not negotiable to her. It was about a week after she caught him, he started on me. I must threaten his relationship with her…either that or I am being scape=goated for their problems…I understand that I am probably being used as a pawn by her, as well. She gets to be the go- between and maintain her upper-hand…I guess.

I do imbibe a little, in the privacy of my own room, before I sleep at night, and this is his pet peeve…he has to quit using, so I should not drink my glass of wine. Thus, all the attacks no my character.



They use the same lines on all the new targets!

The ex-GF I’m friends with now and I compared notes. The same pattern of behaviour and the same empty promises. These creatures are such good charmers and stealthy manipulators that we don’t realize it’s all a game until it’s too late.

The lines mine uses:
“have I told you lately that I love you”
“thank you for being my woman”
“I want to go into our sunset years with you”
….my all time favorite….”you are the only one!”


I think the warning can only function before they have sex. We all know how additive sex with the sociopath can be at beginning of the relationship; you want more and more of him even though you already know that he is a bad guy. It’s like a drug you’re on denial until you hit the bottom. But I also believe that warning a potential victim will plant the seed on the back of her mind and she can free herself from the relationship earlier than we did, perhaps with less “wounds—. who knows?

Ox Drover


So quit the glass of wine!~ If it is causing problems in your life it is too much, even if it is only one drop…isn’t that part of the assessment of the 12 step program is that booze has caused a problem in your life? It may not be that you are missing work or anything else, but if it is giving HIM AN EXCUSE to attack you (and we know he will dig up every one he can) then stop it. If you have trouble stopping it, then there IS A BIGGER PROBLEM.

The triangle is a real problem with game playing. I may have told you before about getting a copy of “Games People Play” by DR. Eric Berne—it really is a helpful book in allowing you to see the GAMES that people do play and to have a reasonable way to DISENGAGE in those games. Especially in addictive and enabling games…

His problem seems to be he doesn’t want to “work a program” he jjust wants to lie, and she is apparently playing too—either rescuing him or persecuting him—I still think, like I said months ago, if there is ANY way for you to get out of that house and find ANYwhere else to sleep and live, you will be better off in the long run. What happens to them and their games is not something you can be involved in and stay healthy yourself! I know you love your D and GK but we all need to love NUMBER ONE MOST! and take care of HER! (((Hugs))))



You’re my FAVORITE!!! (for some reason that one hurts the most!!)
I’d give up everything for you
Nothing in my life has ever compared to what we have
I don’t pick out the onions….I love you onions and all!!

He told me he never really loved the girl before me….they were just convenient and made each other feel good. (I thought it was a mutual thing…it wasn’t…total red flag at the time but I thought I was special….DUH!!!) He told her (the perfect new girl)he never loved me the way he had loved her (ten years ago). So I guess I moved up on the ladder…at least he loved me on some level…he “cared for me deeply!!!”

Errrr…now I’m just getting pissy….time to move on to better thoughts!!!

Thanks Aeylah!!!

kim frederick

Yes, Oxy, I know you’re right. I just don’t wanna. Damn it.



They do have some good ones….and ones they know work on us all.
I feel pissy too…but with a need to vent….
another line:
“all those other women were just a cheep interpretation of you”

okay….onward to more pleasent thoughts. How’s the weather in your part of the world?



I agree….sex is so intoxicating, I never realized that even with his half cocked-flacid pudenda…. (result from prostate surgery) it could be good (occasionally). I thought that would keep him from chasing other women, since I tollerated pathalogical sex……and thought if other women were warned of his condition it would keep them away…..dosent work!


I love my glass of wine at night too!, I would be hard pressed to give it up complete.

kim frederick

Wow. I just read some more on triangulation, and we are (all three of us) doing that dance. I really didn’t realize I was being so unhealthy. He gets to play the role of perpertrator, she’s rescuer, and I’m victim. sigh. Rinse and repeat.

The first thing I need to do is deal with the conflict and not drag my daughter in to fix it. Of course, everyone of us is contributing to the problem. I won’t allow him to abuse me, so he has to want to be part of the solution, too.

kim frederick

Or am I once again trying to fix it? Sheeeesh. Does it ever end?

Ox Drover

Dear Kim,

YOU ARE TRYING TO FIX IT—just like you said.

The ONLY way to “fix” the “games” with the TRIANGLE is to QUIT PLAYING ANY ROLE at all.

That is what NC is is “I WILL NO LONGER PLAY ANY ROLE IN YOUR GAMES.” That is why it is sooooo successful, is because to NOT PLAY is the ONLY WAY WE WIN!

No matter which of the roles you play (and manyy of us have “favorite” roles, but in the end ALL OF US PLAY EACH ROLE…depending on the day. (or hour)

Get the book “Games People Play” it is an old one, but simple and straight forward and gets the BULL CARP out of our excuses and we have to own up to what we are doing.

You’re on a 12 step program but you drink a glass of wine every night, which IS BEING USED AS AN EXCUSE BY YOUR SIL to keep the game going, but you don’t WANT TO GIVE IT UP! You expect HIM to give up his drugs, but you don’t want to give up your booze, because even though it is causing problems in relationships (even if it IS ONLY with him) you aren’t willing to quit the wine—but you can do it anytime you want to, right?

Kim, darling, you know I love you, but as LONG AS YOU LIVE UNDER THAT ROOF YOU ARE PLAYING THE GAME. There is nothing healthy going on with the relationships.

Your SIL isn’t healthy. Your D isn’t healthy or she wouldn’t put up with his lying, and you are RIGHT IN THE BIG MIDDLE OF TWO UNHEALTHY PEOPLE AND THEIR RELATIONSHIP.

You keep up with the excuses of “no job” and can’t support myself, but My take on that, bluntly, is YOU COULD IF YOU REALLY NEEDED TO OR REALLY WANTED TO, but that you actually don’t want to move away from there—oir you would.

He SAYS he wants to quit drugs or whatever he does, but his ACTIONS show otherwise. You say it is unhealthy and you want out but your ACTIONS say other wise.

Kimmie, you know I love ya, sista! But you also know I am gonna slam you with the BS skillet when there is BS flying! And there is a lot about this story that smells of bull carp!

Kim it is just like my EXCUSES for not losing the weight and for allowing it to CREEP up “oh, it’s just a couple of pounds” to the point there are no pairs of pants in my closet that I can get my fat stomach into….ONE POUND AT A TIME. Now I am having to OWN UP TO THE FACT THAT THIS WEIGHT, MY EATING, IS CAUSING PROBLEMS WITH MY HEALTH. Not only physical but emotional and mental as well.

The reality Kim is that we are BOTH you and I “violating the ELEVENTH COMMANDMENT” (you know the 10 in the Bible, they are nothing compared to this 11th one I made up) it is


It isn’t a healthy situation for you to be living with your SIL and D, and it isn’t healthy for me to EAT LIKE a truck driver because now I have tipped my body over into TYPE II DIABETES. And I knew I would if I didn’t stop gaining weight! I KNEW IT AND I STILL DIDN’T DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT.

YOU KNOW THAT SITUATION WITH SIL is sooner or later going to BLOW SKY HIGH….and you still haven’t done anything to get out of the BLAST ZONE! Then when it DOES Blow up, you will be blasted off your feet!

It’s like driving on a bald tire, you know sooner or later it is going to blow out, and if you don’t get another tire or park the car, it may do it when you are doing 70 on the freeway at rush hour and all hell break loose.

PREVENTIVE ACTION IS GOOD SENSE—FOR ME AND YOU BOTH! I’m having to do AFTER-BLAST CLEAN UP now, before something worse happens…like a heart attack or stroke!.

Kimmie, we are both survivors and both strong women, it is just time for us BOTH to pony up and man up and do what we KNOW WE MUST DO TO TAKE CARE OF OURSELVES! No one can do it for us! But You and I together, we can do anything!!!! We’ve been on this road for quite sometime now, Kim, and we’ve encouraged each other and we’re going to keep on doing thing. I will NOT give up on you, and I hope you will not give up on me!!! ((((Hugs))) and my prayers!


“As long as he is still using peeps to harass and threaten us”’s backatcha babe~!
Hit fast and hard—”

Eb, what you are saying here reminds me of what my clients in Northern Ireland, (yes you read it right) used to say. They were political prisoners-ex combatants from the Maze prison. These guys did time for stuff like blowing up Harrod’s of London in the 80’s and the Europa Hotel. I won’t say more but this is what they swore by:

“NEVER let your enemy know what you are going to do.”

Sometimes they would call in a “you have ten minutes to clear the place” but often that was a bluff. I am a pacifist so I could never accept the violence mentality I was exposed to as part of the job. They were clients of the agency where we re-integrated them back into the real world (I know, who knew eh?).

That “advice” stayed with me and I used it very effectively with my ex during our court days. It has it’s place if re-framed.

I swear by that nugget of wisdom (albeit it comes from hard core Northern Ireland freedom fighters) YIKES!

Ox Drover

Dear Adamsrib,

Believe me “never let your enemy know what you are going to do” THAT IS THE ABSOLUTE TRUTH! And one thing I VIOLATED too many times. I warned my Ps…and that is not good sense even!~ GIVES THEM the UPPER hand.



“NEVER let your enemy know what you are going to do.” I like this advice…I have not fully employed it, I have been planting seeds of anxiety, but I think it’s time to change up the strategy, especially as we will be headed into court soon…let’s keep em guessin’!


Hi all
It’s been a long time since I wrote on this site. This blog appealed to me because it’s the first time I have read a story about someone who appears to have gone through what I did. Creepily similar.

I was two years into the relationship before I found out the full extent of his activities on the internet, including other more dubious activities as well as online dating where he paraded himself as a single man looking for women. I won’t go into on here what he was doing on other sites.

Suffice to say, what struck a chord here was the casual ease of “the lie”. If one lie doesn’t appear to work, so smoothly does the next one roll off the tongue, complete with forthright stare, no obvious signs of a lie you would normally expect. Plausible. Always room for a little niggle of doubt in your own belief system.

Anyway, my five pennyworth. No – don’t involve yourself with any of his future victims or try to warn any of them. I did. She didn’t believe me. I discovered he was working us both at the same time, and I appeared to have been selected more favourably than she at that time. (I describe it this dispassionately because that’s what they do. They select you. There is no love here. Only you love, they don’t). She was, at the time I contacted her, desperate to know why he had suddenly dropped out of contact (online dating – so easy), why she never heard from her “love” any more, what had she done, she couldn’t eat, sleep, nearly losing her mind.

I felt sick and horrible and contacted her to put her out of her misery. Told her it appeared that whilst he was telling her he loved her and wanted her to be with him, he was also telling me the same, and possibly more. Her reaction “Oh well, he chose you, lucky old you!” – Lucky??? She thought I was Lucky??? I tried then to explain the full depth of his lies, and she could see them, she couldn’t not see them, but she was so besotted she didn’t care.

When I confronted him, she was a stalker, a demented woman, a lunatic who had made his life a living hell. He cried. But at the same time, he put me down and made me feel a heel for doubting his integrity. I, too, did not know what I was dealing with at the time. It was quite a long time after I was left in tatters thinking I had lost my mind that I began to find sites like this that helped me to understand what happened to me.

In the interim, I tracked him, I kept tabs on what he was doing. I had his passwords to some of his lesser desirable adult sites and what happened? I became addicted to going on there to see what he was doing, and whilst it was slightly reassuring to see he was just as bad as I thought he was, it was also kind of like banging my head against a brick wall already covered with my own blood. How many times did I want to beat myself with this and come away feeling miserable.

I agree, it’s just another form of contact, another way you can get dangerously enmeshed in his/her life. Another way you don’t even realise they are still exerting power over you. It took me over a year to stop going on to these sites and then shaking like a leaf because he really was as bad as I thought he was. Some small part of me just wouldn’t seem to accept it no matter what the evidence.

This is what they seem to be able to do. They muddy the waters, create smoke and mirrors to such an amazing affect you never really feels sure what you know and what you don’t. I found some of the women he was contacting were just as bad as he was. I tried to warn a couple, they weren’t interested and just thought it was sour grapes on my part.

Walk on and don’t look back – that’s my best offer. Don’t do what I did and get hooked back into any aspect of it, even if you think you are helping other women. Most of them are too far in it to see the wood for the trees and won’t believe you anyway, which is just as upsetting.

Good for you for seeing it, dealing with it, and walking away from it. I took a long time to see it, even longer dealing with it, and the only way I could get away from it was to run. He wasn’t violent, but mentally he was a master game player and you will never be in their league.

Who wan’ts to be anyway?

Love n light



Okay….quandry solved!
This is the whole reason we need to ‘sit on it’……because somethng ‘new’ comes right around the corner!

BAIL REVOKED! Hearing is in the process of being set.
I realized today his route…..he goes from A state to B state, c and d……once he leaves D state he alwyas ends up in MY town! And the trouble rears it’s head.
SO……I counter controlled that…..contacted the courts and the DA’s office and had my local sherrifs office provide the documentation they needed to go for bail revokation.
So….he will have to fly directly ON DEMAND back to hillbilly state nowhere from his current paradise to face the judge….which will include a DRUG TEST….he no doubt will fail!
Then….sit in jail until his trial…..of which HE waived his right to a speedy trial……..Enjoy it homeboy!
Shoulda paid me the child support, shoulda signed the deed, shoulda not messed with the WRONG CHICK!

So…..princess lei will be wondering where her skywalker has disappeared to……what’s that story gonna be….a client summoned me to work on the fly in hickville for the next few months/years?

I also informed the DA, for confirmation on his current location…..a few peeps would know where he is…….like princess lei and the ‘friend’ who took him to the airport and he stayed at their house……heres their numbers…..check it out.! 🙂

I ordered a copy of the reciept for the new sporting equipment he ordered in D state……with his signiture and the date he picked it up! that should be provided to me later today.
Um…….talk about shaken him up…..
He’s freaked his cell phones tapped, he will be mortified to use a computer…….and he will NEVER know where this info came from….
That’s the best part!

So……how does christmas in the slammer sound…….and he thought he was sitten FAT on his permanent vacation.


This is not in response to what anyone has posted, because I have not read the posts above it. Rather, it seemed to fit with the overall topic of the blog post…who do I tell what to?

This is about you don’t have to share your story:


ellejay says:

I concur. Tracking them can become a titillating addiction that really serves no purpose past a certain point. (once you’ve gathered all your info you need)

It can also be weirdly fascinating. Like watching a documented accident unfold all over the place.


ErinB Oh MY ~!



I really am sorry for all the pain you have suffered. There are so many on this site who have been so very hurt. It defies logic that here are so many of these zombies out there. Scary ‘to the max’ as we used to say in the 70’s.

I had a partner one time whom I met online while doing research on Irish history. We talked on the phone for a year and then we met. He turned out to be a wonderful man. He was very good to me I cannot fault him. It’s a long story but I will say it ended because his ex wife wanted him back plain and simple. Actually she was technically still his wife because in Ireland in those days it was against the law to get a divorce.

Today I do not recommend internet dating but in the early days it was not as bad, in my experience. Anywhoo he was legally separated. My point is: when he went back to her he never could get himself to tell me that they had reconciled. He fibbed but it was the kind of lie that people tell so as not to cause pain. He would do that on rare occasion to spare people’s feelings. I do not believe he was spath. He was a kind soul.

What it did to me though was leave a huge question mark in my psyche. The uncertainty of what happened just about drove me mad. Psychologists call the looking for details “information gathering”. It is done to alleviate the whys of what we experienced. What he does not know to this day is though he spared me the truth that we would never be together because he would stay in his marriage for his children, he caused me utter destruction in my heart by not being square with me. I believe that someday he will know, that I will get a chance to tell him. All is forgiven and we are at peace with one another though not close. He is married after all.

I liken it to someone losing a loved one to murder and just how far they will take their gathering so that they can find closure. They just want answers, facts, detail. They leave no stone unturned. When they get the answers they get the peace and they move on. Since he and I were separated by thousands of miles (I was back here in the US) I could not get the answers I needed. I finally found out that yes he was back with his wife. I was not angry because I saw first hand how his children suffered. I witnessed them crying over it. I felt so bad for those wee ones. He was such a loving daddy-it broke his heart no doubt. It was not common to live in split homes in a close Irish Catholic community in those days. Just not done. So that did not anger me. I was devastated that he could not tell me the truth about the reconciliation.

Uncertainty, I am convinced can cause extreme mental anguish when we DO NOT KNOW WHAT HAPPENED. I cannot help but wonder just how many on this site are suffering from this uncertainty syndrome. If I was a psychologist, I would specialize in that.

What pains me is that so many here find the answers and still keep digging in the ant hole for more and more until they are covered with stinging welts. Is this a form of masochism I wonder? Of course, I have not been so “in love” with a spath that I would find a need to do that. I believe that knowing myself, after the first weird thing I came across I would shut it off and not want to know more but I would RUN LIKE HELL!!. But it is easy for me to talk. Have not ever walked in those shoes, I am not judging just wondering how it is to want to know more and more of the sordid details. That surely would make me crazy as hell.

As an epilogue I can say my biggest lesson was this: a separated man is a married man. Period. I know I have deviated from our subject (Narc/Spaths) I am just so curious why the need for sordid details that are painful beyond belief and yet they are still sought after. Can anyone shed light on this? I am woefully inadequate in this subject.

EB- you ARE amazing. When I was first in my marriage with my spath ex I was afraid of him. When I left him and went to work in Belfast and came home, he was afraid of me . YEAH!!! 🙂

You go girl. Nail the SOB so he won’t be so free to hurt again. I swear punishment is all they listen too.


I am very sorry that you crossed paths with this pathological personality.
Let me ask you this question…..If you had been warned in the beginning would you have listened?
I was warned, even by his own mother. He told me she was crazy and I believed him.
I stayed for 15 years, was emotionally and sexually abused and had all of my money taken from me.
He is now on dating sites and looks VERY good on paper. I pity anyone who falls for him but somehow don’t feel that it would serve me and my recover to intervene.
Best wishes to you.

super chic

ErinB, OMG!!! You rock!
How do you get a copy of the receipt?
Like Donna said… you are amazing!!


You just ask…..and provide a fax number.


super chic

forever_me, at just a week out from breaking up with this guy, I would be more worried about you than these other women. You could drive yourself crazy trying to warn everybody, at what time do these women become responsible for their own actions of having unprotedted sex with someone they just met? I agree with sickofhim, if somebody had warned me about some of the men I have had relationships with I would not have believed them, we just believe what we want to believe, we just see what we want to see. I hope you stay here at LF and read a lot of the articles!!! It has helped me to open my eyes and see myself, and to see that there is evil / liar / cheater / whatever he is… disguised as the nice guy next door. I just pray to God everyday that I don’t trip up and open my heart ever again to a toxic person.

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