By | December 21, 2008 160 Comments

Life’s Lessons 101: The Knowledge of Good and Evil

Editor’s note: The following article refers to spiritual concepts. Please read Lovefraud’s statement on Spiritual Recovery.

By OxDrover

In the Bible the story of Adam and Eve living in the Garden of Eden, in perfect paradise, is a story familiar to most children who have gone to Bible school at one point or another in their lives. If you take that same story, though, and look at it through adult eyes, you can see that there is a great moral to this tale, whether you believe it as a “creation” story or not.

Before the “fall,” Adam and Eve had only dealt with a loving God/Creator who had given them a wonderful place to live in peace and plenty. They were naked and innocent in this paradise on earth. They were given an occupation of “dressing the garden” and only given one warning that they must not disobey, and that was to not eat from the tree of the “Knowledge of Good and Evil,” for if they did not heed this warning, they would die.

The original psychopath, Satan, in the disguise of a serpent, like all villains shows up on the scene. We know about psychopaths and we know that Satan personified this personality disorder, because he saw someone who was happy and prosperous, but naïve, and he wanted to bring about their downfall. Not for any gain or motive we can perceive on his own part, but simply to have someone else believe his lies and suffer for that belief. He wanted to enjoy the downfall of someone else. That was his “reward” for telling the lies to Eve, to get Eve to disregard the warning she had received from God ”¦ just as our psychopaths lie to us to get us to not heed the instinctive intuitive warnings we get when we catch them in a lie, or something doesn’t feel right.

How did Satan accomplish his task? The story tells us that Satan was “more subtle than any beast of the field.” ”¦ ”and he said unto the woman, ‘Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?'” Satan knew this was not true, but he was setting her up with a conversation starter he knew she would respond to.

The woman said, “We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden, but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said ”˜Ye shall not eat of it’”¦or ye shall surely die.”

The serpent said unto the woman, “Ye shall not surely die, for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and she shall be as gods, knowing Good and Evil.” Here the psychopath, as they all do, tells Eve that the warning from God is for God’s benefit, because God wants to “keep the best stuff” for himself and that if she will just not heed the warning not to eat of the forbidden fruit, she will be equal with God.

Here Satan is creating a need in this woman, and holding the hope of accomplishing that need in Eve. Before Satan’s lie to her, Eve wasn’t unhappy, and she had no desires that weren’t met. She didn’t even desire to be “as gods,” but now she has started to desire something that Satan appears to be offering her.

How many times have our psychopaths held out to us a “prize” that we start to desire? A desire that they have created a fantasy of, and lied to us that they know the way for us to achieve this desire, our heart’s desire. Is it a perfect soul mate? A perfect love? A perfect marriage? A perfect business arrangement? A perfect child? The perfect restoration of something we have lost? What was the desire in you that the psychopath created with their lies?

“And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her and he did eat.”

“And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked.”

Adam and Eve immediately knew that they had been had. They knew they were naked, and they did now know the difference between Good and Evil. They knew that they had been tricked, that Satan had done them in completely, and that there was no going back to naiveté. You can’t UN-ring a bell.

While Adam and Eve tried to find a way to hide themselves from God and the consequences of their disobedience and naiveté, Satan skipped off on his merry way, having accomplished what he desired, the destruction of human kind. The taking away of the innocence of humanity. The bringing of death to the world.

However, though Satan brought evil into the world of man, humanity also received the knowledge that will protect us in that fall from grace. We have the knowledge of Good and Evil. We can choose our path.

The psychopaths in our lives who have attacked us because we didn’t have a proper knowledge of their evil intentions when they started to destroy us for their own purposes, their own selfish games, have given us the same “fruit” that Eve in her naiveté ate, the wisdom of the knowledge of Good and Evil.

While Eve in the Bible story paid a stiff price for her knowledge by being cast from paradise into the world, we also have paid a stiff price for this knowledge, some of us in terms of money and property, all of us in terms of pain and emotional devastation. Just as Eve must have berated herself for being so naïve and stupid for doing something she had been told not to, we berate ourselves for being so naïve and stupid in ignoring the warnings we also generally had all along. Why did we not heed the warnings, just as Eve did not heed God’s warning not to eat the fruit?

Just as Eve, after the fall, had to learn to live in the real world, the world that is not paradise, that contains evil people, selfish people, even her own son, Cain, who killed her other son, Abel, we as former victims of the psychopath have to learn to live in the real world and to distinguish what is good from what is evil. We have to learn from our experience with our own personal version of Satan, and our own version of our fall from grace, to know what is truly important in life. To use this hard-won knowledge of Good and Evil to make us stronger and better people.

We are no longer naïve people who don’t know about red flags of warnings of psychopaths. We are no longer willing to trust others indiscriminately or lightly as Eve trusted the lying words of her own Satan. We are no longer willing to fail to listen to the instinctive cries of our own intuition about danger.

We have knowledge that we have gotten the hard way, and hard-won knowledge is a lesson that will stick to us forever. It is up to us to use this life’s lesson in Psychopath 101 for our own and others’ benefits.

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#1 I do Not Cry!:)~
Thanks !That was very well done! Now someone needs to get me some Beer and smokes! :)~ LOVE JJ


Dear Oxy,
Once again you have illuminated the subject beautifully. We all are aware of generic, societal evil, but are stunned when actually confronted with it personally in the naked light of day.

There is such a profound loss of innocence that takes place in this mental shift, at least from my experience, and with that the WHY. The why did I not listen to the inner voice.

Very good food for much more thought. Thanks & Hugs to Oxy


It’s Animal Magnetism!:)~


Very well written Oxy….

One of the things I would mutter to myself and share with others was exactly those words…”I will never love in such a innocent way ever again”… in some ways, that saddens me, but also with the rapeing of my ability to love in that innocent way again, I gained wisdom… I know that wisdom is good.. it keeps me safe, it protects… but ….I will always long to have back what was taken from me…. a heart that loved with the innocence of a child.

Ox Drover

Dear Southernman, and others, thanks for the kudos. The Bible tells us to be “as innocent as doves, and as cunning as serpents.” That’s a big order, but I think it is the right way if we can achieve it.

A small child does love so innocently because they do NOT have wisdom, and as they get their little hearts broken from time to time by being betrayed to some extent, they learn caution and wisdom (we hope) but hopefully, not bitterness.

I’ve wondered many times the WHY of it all. WHY did they do it, what did they “get out of it?” Of course with Madloff we can see he got money, power, status, etc. but so many times, they get nothing that we can even conceive of as “gain.”

I read the story of the Garden of Eden over and over and over and I never saw a thing in the world that Satan could gain except for the downfall of another. But, apparently, for some of the sociopaths, that is enough.

Just as Eve gained the knowledge of good and evil by her experience with the sociopath, I think that we too must gain that knowledge without loosing our innocence totally.

That’s why I think the psychopathic experience we have all been through is so much a SPIRITUAL thing as much as a trauma, and an abuse thing. Our spirits are wounded, our innocence is wounded, our hearts are wounded, and our lives and our reality disrupted and put into question.


That is beautiful Oxy… and with all that has been written here over the years.. so much knowledge, wisdom, and truth… what you just wrote in your last paragraph in response to my post, has got to be one of the biggest truths of all… I became a child of God because of it all… I paid a heavy price, but never as much as the one who wore a crown of thorns for you and for me.



I’d like to add…..

It has taken me three years to heal… I let the field lay fallow.. no searching, no dating…. just took the time to rediscover who I am…hard work that healing is….

…three days…the seed lay in the ground… three days our Savior was in the tomb… I think three years is very symbolic for the time of the “resurection” of my heart…..smiles…

I am ready to emerge from the tomb.


You Are Awsome!


I never CRY!


Could it be most men are in fact sociopathic to a degree? Just some got more traits?

Ox Drover


No, my dear, it isn’t that MEN are sociopathic to a degree it is that HUMANS are socipathic, selfish, egocentric, self centered and so on to a degree, ALL of us.

But some of the human race develops empathy, the ability to see another person’s point of view, to FEEL for them when they are happy or sad, to put ourselves in their shoes to a degree. BEcause of the empathy some of the human race develops we are able to restrain our selfish, selfcentered, egotistic desires for the good of others.

Some humans develop the ability to delay gratification. Some people are willing to do things for the good of others, not just themselves.

Maybe WE (those of us with empathy) are the “mutants,” I’m not sure.

Look at all the stories in history, religion, myth, Shakespeare, any drama—you see the “good, the bad and the ugly” the selfish and the givers. The Mother Theresas and the Hitlers. In humanity in general, there are the “saints and the sinners and the people in between.”

I remember a bit of poetry I memorized when I was a kid, I have no idea where it came from.

A mother, starved for her brood,
Socrates drinking the hemlock,
Jesus upon the rod,
And the millions,
Who, humble and nameless,
The stoney hard pathway trod,
Some call it concecration,
Others call it God.

I don’t believe that everyone allows themselves to express our utmost EVIL, most people, many people at least, give more than they get, care more than they are cared for.

I just know that whatever money or fame the psychopathic people like Madloff get in this world with their EVIL, and I do believe they choose to be EVIL, I do believe they know right from wrong, but just don’t care what damage they do, or even enjoy the damage they do, like Satan apparently did, I know and believe that none of the gain they get gives them happiness, not true happiness. I think it is only what good we have done, what love we have shown to our fellows that in the end when we face the great leveler of all men, death, that makes a bit of difference in us.

I think that we are spiritual beings on a human journey, rather than humans on a spiritual journey. I would much rather be the victim of one of them than be one of them.


A picket frozen on duty–
A mother starved for her brood–
Socrates drinking the hemlock,
And Jesus on the rood.
And millions who, humble and nameless,
The straight hard pathway trod–
Some call it Consecration,
And others call it God.


In it’s entirety

Each In His Own Tongue

A fire-mist and a planet,
A crystal and a cell,
A jelly-fish and a saurian,
And caves where the cave-men dwell;
Then a sense of law and beauty
And a face turned from the clod, —
Some call it Evolution,
And others call it God.

A haze on the far horizon,
The infinite, tender sky,
The ripe, rich tint of the cornfields,
And the wild geese sailing high;
And all over upland and lowland
The charm of the golden-rod, —
Some of us call it Autumn,
And others call it God.

Like tides on a crescent sea-beach,
When the moon is new and thin,
Into our hearts high yearnings
Come welling and surging in:
Come from the mystic ocean,
Whose rim no foot has trod, —
Some of us call it Longing,
And others call it God.

A picket frozen on duty,
A mother starved for her brood,
Socrates drinking the hemlock,
And Jesus on the rood;
And millions who, humble and nameless,
The straight, hard pathway plod, —
Some call it Consecration,
And others call it God.

William Herbert Carruth (1859 ”“ 1924)


That would be a no Muldoon, not even close for most men or women. Most people do not even come close.

Estimates of psychopaths are roughly the same as for schizophrenia in the general population and roughly 15-25% (according to Hare 1996) of the prison population meet the criteria for being a psychopath. So even the majority of people in prison do not meet the criteria yet often in internet land I see people labeling someone a psychopath because he/she cheated on them or because the stole from them or because they were committed various crimes.

Now I disagree with Ox that all humans are sociopathic to a degree. I do agree that all humans can choose to act that way and have the ability to become sociopathic (not psychopathic) and that all humans can be selfish, self-centered and egotistical.

I also very much agree with Ox’s statement I would much rather be the victim of one of them than be one of them.


Thank you for such a great post. You seem to have such a wonderful way to put things into a perspective that makes us all feel better. You are indeed a wise & caring person.
I’ll go for the beer & cigarettes, & we can all go live on Oxie’s ranch, & look out for each other, & farm for a livin’. -& Henry-we can set an acre aside to run a home for all the stray animals.
…I know, it sounds like an…”and they all lived happily ever after story.” Just wishful thinkin’ on my part. Have a good night, all. I gotta get up earlier than normal tomorrow, I better turn in.

Ox Drover

[email protected]! Southern man!!! Thank you!!!! I never could remember where I read or memorized that verse, and sometimes I forget a word or two here or there, but I am so appreciative of you telling me the whole poem and the author! THANK YOU!!! HUGS!!

BloggerT, I guess I phrased that wrong, what I meant is that we can all have some of the socipath’s traits of selfishness, and failure of empathy, but because we “over all” do have empathy, we tend to override the selfish instincts within is and act better than a sociopath would.

Just as a small child who has not yet developed empathy might hit another child or take a toy away (like 2 year olds play) but as they grow, are guided and develop a connection with others and empathy, their behavior improves.

Now that I’m 7 mos post-S, I’m starting not to take anything that the S did to me personally. I wasn’t the first and won’t be the last. He is just a woman hater. He said sin began in the Garden of Eden when Eve gave the fruit to Adam. Woman caused sin. He also believes that he is entitled to dominate women and they should submit because that is in the Bible too. He’s just sick. Mentally ill.



Loved the poem. I visited your myspace recently when I followed a link from an old thread… Your page was awesome and your pictures… well, I was shocked to know that Southernman was so CUTE! Did anyone else know that?! It was great to put a face to all the good wisdom and thoughts.

It has been three and a half years for me and I am feeling better and wiser… I took a lot of time off from dating. That is for sure! And I just wanted to share that I have been “found” by Bad Man’s ex-wife and oldest daughter through LoveFraud. They recognized details in the story and realized it was him. And so, they found me. It has been a gift to email with Bad Man’s ex-wife. She is a very kind lady. Of course, knowing what I know now, I didn’t expect anything different.

That’s it for now…. Aloha (I am still lerking in the shadows but I have three jobs right now and I can’t read all of this stuff anymore.. not enough time in the day.


Ox Drover

Dear Aloha,

Merry Christmas and Happy New year my friend! We have missed you, but glad you are lurking out there. Don’t work too hard, I’ve made that mistake all my life! I’ve bee reading the Betrayl Bond and realize a lot of things, one thing is depriving ourselves of care by caring for others, and not caring for ourselves. So please take care of YOU, Aloha! Happy holidays ((((hugs)))))

Ox Drover

Dear Stiles,

That would be a lovely fantasy wouldn’t it be! We could be one great big “hippie” commune and all “love children”—-right now we would have to all snuggle up though, it will be 12 degrees out tonight—a three dog night for sure!

Nasty weather on the way too, so I’m staying inside in my wooly sockies! Think I will make me a cup of peppermint tea!



LOL… why so “Shocked”?…..and thank you for the compliment…I’m waiting to see a picture of you..smiles…Actually, you should have seen me before the sociopath…I’m afraid she took some years off of my life…

I had always been a rather deep person, but the sociopathic thing took me into the depths of myself….. As Oxy pointed out, the trauma turned into a spiritual journey, I think that with me, all the ropes that had been keeping me up all my life, were cut when my wife died…. I was able to get out of that fetal position, start to thrive, only to meet a sociopath and once again, the ropes that I had re-attached myself to, were totally severed.. and I didn’t get up for a long time…

I had a lot of dissillusionment about life and God, but I did choose to go to God because the pain was so unbearable…. I needed healing of my soul.. and I needed something true to hold onto, after the total lie of the sociopath… As Donna and ML, has described here in the past, the road to healing isn’t a pretty one……but one has to go through it. these are some quotes that I have kept and would go to in those darker times.

“In the depth of winter, I finally learned that there was within me an invincible summer.” ~ Albert Camus

“The world is full of suffering, it is also full of overcoming it. ~ Helen Keller

“Character cannot be developed in ease and quiet. Only through experience of trial and suffering can the soul be strengthened, vision cleared, ambition inspired, and success achieved.” ~ Helen Keller

“”Make it a rule of life never to regret and never to look back. Regret is an appalling waste of energy; you can’t build on it; it’s only for wallowing in.” ~ Kathrine Mansfield

“What lies behind us, and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.”
~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

“The best way out is always through.”
~ Robert Frost


Happyness is a choice , Not money , not things , and most importantly not a person! You Choose to be happy regardless of situations , events , and issues! LOVE JJ


Beautiful Ox, I loved it :O)


you WILL love again with the innocence of a child. You will always be that child, no matter how many days have passed. You just haven’t found the right person, or perhaps the timing is not right for you at the moment, but I believe in my heart that you WILL love again, as you did, but in time, to someone who will reciprocate and is deserving of your love :O)


Oxy Another great article! And thank you southernman for your favorite quotes I really like the one about regret. And the comment about never loving in such an innocent way again. I feel that way – sometime’s I feel cheated – maybe my ideal of love was ignorance and not innocence. But all the same I feel like I will never experience love the way I thought it would be. Did my experience with a sociopath rob me of my innocense or cure me of my ignorance? I remember Big Dude saying ‘this was his last chance at love’ why do we want that connection so bad? Is my ideal of love all wrong. I remember telling my x when I would leave for work that I would like to put him in my pocket and take him with me. Maybe this is part of the struggle, my ideal of love has always been wrong from the beginning, maybe I loved him too much, maybe I was too much for him. After I discovered his lie’s and cheating I turned into a lunatic trying to catch him at it – I should of stopped at the first lie but I put up with them for 3 years, he said he loved me and I was trying to prove to myself he didnt or couldnt or he wouldnt do what he was doing.



Wow. I can relate to your story. I don’t remember hearing about it before. I was with a man that I totally loved for 5 years but he decided I wasn’t the one. I fell on my face and didn’t get up for three years… then, I moved to Hawaii and almost instantly fell in love… with the Bad Man… and I didn’t get up for about three years… but I am BACK! I am totally back… almost.

It is true though, that love will be different now. Remember when you were a teenager and you just didn’t know about the world like you do now and so you felt invinceable? That’s how it is with these kind of experiences… we never imagined that someone could be so aweful and then they were and now we know.

Anyway, I loved your garden of Eden. I can’t believe something so beautiful exists. WOW! I imagine you can do lots of healing there… and it looks so southern… at least how I imagine it… since I haven’t been to the south. You have created a healing sanctuary.

I am moved by your myspace page and that you have dedicated it to the Father. It really is beautiful. I plan to spend more time there. I was having trouble with my computer the last time I visited and I don’t quite have the hang of the MySpace thing.. my “space” is a mere shell. I put it up so I could communicate with my sister who is younger and more hip the the whole social networking thing.

Have to run for now… anyway, it was great to put a face to your contributions. Now I will be able to imagine who I am reading. I have made up pictures of Oxy’s farm house n my head… I always imagine a swinging screen door like my Grandma used to have.

Me… Aloha


Thank you Aloha…you should have left your myspace url here , so I could find you and add you….you should also read my blogs.. they are very popular… I have come to learn that so many christians have come to faith as a result of trial or tribulation… and through their faith, the leaning into him, they are healed.. again, a slow process, that requires obedience, hard work and the constant renewing of one’s mind.

“Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is–his good, pleasing and perfect will.”
Romans 12:2 NIV

Letgoletgod, thank you for your kind words and thoughts, but the total innocence is gone forever.. but.. it’s ok… the way I see it, the next time, for every once of innocence I place into love, there will be pound of discernment…. Actually, that is the smart way to love.

“Above all else, guard your heart, for it is the wellspring of life.”
Proverbs 4:23 NIV

Ox Drover

Dear Iwonder,

The Bible also says that a man SHOULD LOVE HIS WIFE AS HIMSELF….and obviously men who quote the “submissive” verses didn’t read the other one! LOL

That is the thing about people who twist scripture or any writing to justify their own ideas of how things should be.

The FBI just arrested a man named Tony Alamo who was a “minister” that developed a cult here in Arkansas 20+ years ago. His then wife, Susan, and he were partners in this “church” and she died and he claimed that he was going to raise her from the dead! Yea, right! As I remember it, they kept her in a glass coffin for years at the “church” but somehow Tony never managed to raise her from the dead. Now he is arrested for sexual misconduct with children in his cult—I think he said he had a vision from God that all these young girls at puberty should be “married” to old men in plural marriages. That and beatings administered to those in the cult who didn’t do as he said.

It still amazes me how many people fall for this kind of cult situation, and how twisted these psychopaths and child molesters can be in convincing their victims. How any religion can be twisted to promote mayhem and malice, hate and revenge is something I have a hard time getting my head around, yet my own mother twisted my view of God and Christianity to make it something ugly and hateful. If nothing else good came out of all this chaos, it was that my eyes were opened to a loving spirituality that I didn’t have before.

Throughout my life I have studied most of the great religions of the world and have taken good from all the writings. Yet, how many people have been killed, burned at the stake, etc. for their beliefs. In our world today we see the same thing, people dying for a twisted religion. Putting bombs on their bodies and blowing themselves and others up for “God?”

Yet, these misguided souls really believe that they are doing “God’s will” by killing themselves and others….egged on by twisted psychopaths who are out for power and control at any price—and someone else always pays the price. You notice that Osama bin Laden doesn’t strap a bomb on HIMSELF and throw his OWN life away in the “cause” but he gets others to do it for him.

Elizabeth Conley

Dear Ox Drover,

“You notice that Osama bin Laden doesn’t strap a bomb on HIMSELF and throw his OWN life away in the “cause” but he gets others to do it for him.”

That’s the most amazing thing about Ps, Ss, & Ns. They can get people to do just about anything. Droves of people can be bent to their will. Their social standing can be very high.

We should all be thankful that we have been made aware of the pitfalls the S, P & N represent.

The Bible does teach about Ss, Ns and Ps, and tells us how to cope. Unfortunately, most of us dealing with an S/P/N cannot gain the support of the church, or even “one or two others”, because S/P/Ns are so good at spin. That’s fine, ’cause if s/he is sexually immoral, greedy, an idolater, slanderer, drunkard or swindler, you must not associate with him/her. MUST NOT. I don’t think it gets clearer than that. Note by the way that we are talking about “anyone who calls himself a brother BUT…” If such a person isn’t an S/P/N, I don’t know who is. So NC isn’t something new, edgy or morally questionable that we should feel guilty and/or anxious about. We aren’t simply compensating for our own weakness when we practice NC. Paul invented it to deal with the age old problems S/P/Ns present.

1 Corinthians 5:11
But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.

Matthew 18:15-17
“If your brother sins against you,[a] go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

S/P/Ns seem to think of church as their playground, and Christians as their natural prey. We don’t have to be. We can do just fine if we study the Word and apply it to our lives.

Elizabeth Conley

Matthew 10:16
Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

A favorite of mine ;^)

Ox Drover

Dear Elizabeth,

You are so right, and that is the thing, those VERY VERSES that I saw not only ALLOWED but demanded that I go NC with my mother. I TRIED to go to the Church, but her “mask of piety” is so well glued on in PUBLIC that I could not get anyone to listen to me. She had smeared me to the church soo completely in favor of the DIL and the Trojan HOrse P that even after the arrest of those two “brothers” my name was STILL mud. Now I am receiving cards from the members of the church wanting me to come back and telling me how much they love me, and so is my son C now that he is home from out of state.

The thing is, THEY WOULD STILL NOT LISTEN TO ME, and still accept her word that I am some sort of greedy, abusive daughter to this “saint” of a woman. I am sure this recent rash of cards from the church (signed by all the members present that day, including her) were sent at her request. Since my eldest son went NC totally with her after his last visit with her and a confrontation about her sending money to my P-son (which is just as good as loading bullets into a gun to blow our brains out) my son left her house and “slammed the door.” Which is what he had told her a year ago he would do if she continued to send money (“bullets”) to my P-son.

I’m not sure if she thought that she could get away with it, and us not know, or if she didn’t think he meant what he said when he told her that if she did, it was the last she would see of him. Not that he trusted her or wanted much contact with her, but he was having some little bit of contact with her in an effort to KEEP HER FROM SENDING MONEY TO THE P-son.

He said that as he walked out she was calling behind him “Please don’t go.” I think she is so trauma bonded to my P-son as a substitute for her deceased abusive brother that it is an ADDICTION that will not be easily (at all?) ever broken. She is deep in denial about my son’s involvement with the plot to kill me (and probably her as well) even though she READ THE LETTERS MY P-SON WROTE TO THE TROJAN HORSE PSYCHOPATH. And, there is NO doubt about his involvement. She has “conveniently” forgotten all this. I am actually not sure how much is denial and how much is organic brain syndrome of her age. I know she has some pretty significant short term memory problems, but not enough to qualify her as “senile” or “demented” by legal standards, she still at this point could pass a mental status exam. While the Trojan Horse was there though,, she was so drugged out on medications the TH-P was giving her that she couldn’t have passed even a basic quick mental status exam. Her mind cleared up within 24 hours of him being put out of her house by the judge, and as soon as he came back she became “senile” again until he was arrested.

I think more churches should practice “shunning” of members who behave in illegal and immoral ways, preying on others, however, I don’t know many that do practice this, as unless someone goes to jail for robbery, they are seldom sanctioned by the church, and in the case of my lying X-DIL, after she wrote her letter of “apology” to the church, “all was forgiven” immediately….even without any CHANGE IN BEHAVIOR on her part. I firmly believe that her “religion” was based entirely on trying to put up a front and con my mother into believing that my mother had “saved her soul” (now pass the money, please—and boy O boy, did mom do that!) New Car, $10,000 worth of dental work, and so on….to say nothing of the $24,000 that she STOLE from my mother! LOL

So now, my son C is paying off my mother for the money she lost because of my DIL. For him it is a debt of “honor”—personally, I think he should tell my mother to stick it, as she is the one who gave the DIL the opportunity to steal from her, and the car she “loaned” the money to the DIL to buy, which sold for only about half what DIL paid for it, and my son is paying off the rest of that debt as well.

I am proud that my son is such an honorable man, but frankly I think my mother should bear the loss of her money for making such bad judgment “loans” to the two psychopaths rather than my son bearing the loss entirely.


Now Serpents are Revealed to be Wise??
Satan took the form of the Serpent in Paradise !
A snake is 100 percent Instinc. Doves are Food= bottom of food chain.
Snakes actively hunt , passively lye in ambush , Mimic color and patern , display false color paterns of venimus snakes ! Wise is not a snake ! Good at what It does inorder to Survive , that is it! Love JJ

Elizabeth Conley

Dear Ox Drover,

I don’t believe in church orchestrated shunnings, because those are often used against targets of S/P/Ns in leadership. Further, they’re rarely done in the way Paul intended.

I do believe that individuals have a responsibility to go discretely NC when they know they’re dealing with a S/P/N.

I think you’re smart to stay away from Mom’s church. They need to state that they understand that they were mistaken in their beliefs assumptions and need to treat you differently in the future. Even then, it would be better if you were cordial but different. Another church could serve you and your son Charlie better.


Oh My Gosh!

Nothing is Worse than P with a Bible! :)~ Love JJ

Hi Southerman:
I remember seeing the video you made and being so moved. Can you send me the site address again?


Go to

My blog links are on the upper right of my page. The video you are looking for is part of the blog called “Be Here Now”

You might also enjoy the newest one “The Greatest Gift Of Love”

You may also see them at Youtube

Be Here Now

The Greatest Gift Of Love

I am currently creating a video blog based on the song “Broken Arrow” From Robbie Robertson’s 1987 debut album of the same name.

When an agreement was reached between two Native American groups that were in conflict with one another and since the Native Americans didn’t use writing, they would break a single arrow in half to represent that peace had been agreed upon between the two parties. This would bring an end to the conflict between them.

I see God’s salvation through Christ as that broken arrow on our behalf and that is the concept behind my video/blog.

the lyrics are as follows

Who else is gonna bring you a broken arrow
Who else is gonna bring you a bottle of rain
There he goes moving across the water
There he goes turning my whole world around

Do you feel what I feel
Can we make it so that’s part of the deal
I gotta hold you in these arms of steel
Lay your heart on the line this time

I wanna breathe when you breathe
When you whisper like that hot summer breeze
Count the beads of sweat that cover me
Didn’t you show me a sign this time


Can you see what I see
Can you cut behind the mystery
I will meet you by the witness tree
Leave the whole world behind

I want to come when you call
I’ll get to you if I have to crawl
They can’t hold me with these iron walls
We got mountains to climb, to climb


Turning my whole world around
Turning my whole world around
Turning my whole world around

Elizabeth Conley

“Now Serpents are Revealed to be Wise??”

That’s the King James Translation. Sometimes it is helpful to understand that when we read the Bible in English, we’re reading a translation.

The NIV reads

Matthew 10:16 I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves.

Perhaps shrewd is a description of snakes you can be comfortable with.

The point to the verse is not to lionize snakes or doves. The point to the verse is to understand that it is God’s intention for His people that we be both good and sensible. I’ve got doves who nest in our yard each spring. Boy, they are awful parents. Their offspring rarely survive. I’m betting Jesus knew them to be the same way. Doves are sweet, but dumb. Therefore he instructed his disciples to use their brains as well as their hearts.

The P/S/Ns of the world would vastly prefer that you simply use your heart and ignore your brains. There are a lot of church “leaders” who will urge you to do exactly that. The P/S/Ns of the world hope you’ll never read your Bible, and if you do, you’ll let them “interpret” it for you. In that way they can use you to do their will, and ignore God’s.

The Bible is not trying to make snakes out to be evil or good. They’re merely symbols. Note that modern medicine’s caduceus is derived from both Biblical and Pagan references to snakes being a medium for healing. (Moses had to make a copper serpent for the Israelites to look at when bitten by poisonous snakes, during a plague that God had sent, in order to be cured.)

Ancient people tended to think of snakes as having the power to heal themselves of leprosy, because of the ability to shed their old, shabby looking skin for a new one… do I digress, regress or merely ramble on?

Any how, the point isn’t the snakes. The point of Jesus’ remark was be good AND be sensible.


Southernman429: Thanks for sharing your site. You’ve added more than the last time I viewed it.

Beautiful, absolutely beautiful.

For Christmas, I thought you would enjoy the following?

From 1558 until 1829, Roman Catholics in England were not permitted to practice their faith openly.

Someone during that era wrote this carol as a catechism song for young Catholics.

It has two levels of meaning: the surface meaning plus a hidden meaning known only to members of their church.

Each element in the carol has a code word for a religious reality so the children could remember.

-The partridge in a pear tree was Jesus Christ.

-Two turtle doves were the Old and New Testaments.

-Three French hens stood for faith, hope and love.

-The four calling birds were the four gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke & John.

-The five golden rings recalled the Torah or Law, the first five books of the Old Testament.

-The six geese a-laying stood for the six days of creation.

-Seven swans a-swimming represented the sevenfold gifts of the Holy Spirit–Prophesy, Serving, Teaching, Exhortation, Contribution, Leadership, and Mercy.

-The eight maids a-milking were the eight beatitudes.

-Nine ladies dancing were the nine fruits of the Holy Spirit–Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Faithfulness, Gentleness, and Self Control.

-The ten lords a-leaping were the ten commandments.

-The eleven pipers piping stood for the eleven faithful disciples.

-The twelve drummers drumming symbolized the twelve points of belief in the Apostles’ Creed.

From one Pisces to another!



OMG….situation changed here, 7.30 phone rang, recognised the voice but didnt twig, voice says” am I having the rest of my stuff” I say “what stuff there nothinghere now f off”
Am I seeing my daughter over Chrsitmas he says, fuck off and see a solicitor I say and hang up….on 1471 I find its the pay ophone from around the corner from my house, I know this because my daughter often calls from it….Half hour later my daughter says she has just seen him walk slowly past and look throught the window, spotted her and hurried off.
I immediately went in to fight or flight mode, shaking, heart hammering, dry mouth and now I am on edge.
I dont usually rebuff him after so long apart…been just under a week, I dont know how it willplay out because it doesbnt usually go like this..
Determined if a little anxious, sleep will probably not come easy tonight.
Add to that the baby for the first time sence he went said i miss dad and i want him to come home, her lip gibbed and I felt wretched knowing i could easily mend her broken heart…abeit temporarily.

Ox Drover

Dear Muldoon,

I understand your fear and your anxiety, for sure. I hid out for quite some time in fear of my life, but keep calm if you can at all. Fear makes us not think as straight as we otherwise would. A little fear is a good thing, a lot is counterproductive.

Take some deep breaths and get “centered.” I’m not sure if you have a cell phone, but if you do, make sure the emergency number isprogrammed into it so that it is a one button push. Keep it with you.

If you have a land line, stay close to it. Bar the doors and windows as best you can. Turn on all outside lights and leave the inside lights off. As bestyou can make sure he cannot see into the house. Hang blankets over the windows if youo have to to block his view.

If you have multiple doors or windows he might jimmy open, do what you can to block them so if he does get in it will make noise. With the house dark you can scatter chairs or pots and pans for him to trip over, or clothes line rope, anything to trip him up.

Make sure if he gets into the house that you and the children have an exit that you can get to so that you are not trapped in a place you cant get out of.

I know it is tough when your children cry for the psychopath, but if they had a pet snake and you found it was poison, you would get rid of it before it bit them, even if they cried and cried for that pet reptile wouldn’t you? Well in this case, their dad is poison and HE WILL BITE THEM EVENTUALLY. It is better for them to be sad for a while than to live a life with him and see you abused and themselves abused as well.

Do for your children what might be difficult to do for yourself.

I also suggest that in the future you not answer the phone unless it is a number you can identify. No strange number calls. Also I suggest that you do not speak to him if at all possible, and if you do, DO NOT PROVOKE HIM or call him names it will only incite him more and “justify” to him whatever mean thing he does to you.

Is there somewhere else you can go for the night or a few nights? If so I would suggest that you go there. Make sure your car is safe if you have one. Get your handy-dandy oven cleaner or base ball bat or whatever you can muster for self defense ready and handy.

If not, tell a neighbor that you are afraid and why and ask them to keep an eye out. If you need to stay on LF all night and there will probably be someone here to “hold your cyber hand” (hugs)))) and my prayers are with you.



I remember the drive bys. Bad Man used to troll past my house late at night when we were on the outs. He wanted to “catch” me at moving on, basically. I remember one time he drove by during the day light while I was on the phone with a friend on the mainland… (I lived in Hawaii back then) and I started running from window to window and closing the blinds and locking the doors. My friend told me later that that day was the reason she decided not to come visit me… she said, “I have children to think about.” I guess I really scared her with all my drama. The thing is, we never know when it’s just psychological drama or if our Bad Man is one that will not be able to tolerate losing us. You can make a better guess that we can about your Bad Man. Mine never laid a finger on me though I have since spoken to his wife and she has confirmed that he was not against physical abuse as he pretended to be.

Please do listen to Oxy and don’t provoke a Bad Man. And best of all, cut off all contact if you can. It sounds like you have children with this man…. I guess that is territory I don’t know about. Perhaps someone that does will give you better advice.

In the meantime, blessings and happy holidays!



Go to a hotel or motel ! take care that you are not followed!

I once had to leave my house because He was in that dangerous mode! I went to a hotel very nice almost like a mini vacation! He called my cell over and over and thretened Sucied if I did not return. I just shut the phone off and took a nice bath! Don’t chance anything and notify the authorities! LOVE JJ


Aloha said” “I was shocked to know that Southernman was so CUTE! Did anyone else know that?!”

I do now that you pointed it out and I went and checked out his page. Kinda makes me wish I was a few years younger or he was a few years older. lol

Southern Man, How ’bout them DAWG? You are not far from my neck of the woods! 🙂


I know what the symbalizum is ! Jesus taught in simple terms! Why ? Because most in fact almost all people where Illeterate , no School, no read , no spell!

The Serpent was feared by men! because of Venoum/poision !

See if you can explain this? Why after all the Mirecals would the Jews of Moses turn away from God? To read the story it does’nt make sence! I have an answer but I’ll give you first shot! LOVE JJ


LF dateing site
Start your Profile!:)~

Rich , Handsom , Well Swong!:)~ Heavy into Realestate , Time share Hotels , Private Jet. Look like Elvis at 23! :)~



Made you look. HAHA! (But what a surprise… you just never know about people.)



Oh come on with the whole Garden of Eden, Satan as a metaphor thing. The Bible was written eons ago by a bunch of men sitting around drinking deciding which “books” they were going to put in the canon. And not all of them made it.

It is an outdated boring metaphor. And not a very good beginning at all. Women get the raw end of the stick so to speak.

This blog offers alot of research done by Dr. Liane that talks about the brain and how we as humans are wired. Lets move into the year 2008 and read some of the research.

Amazing books that deal with the concept of pathology in challenging relevant story telling and metaphors and up to date science and anthropological patterns of meaning making include the following.

Evil; A Primer. “The history of a bad idea from Beelzebub to Bin Laden. By William Hart.

The Science of Good and Evil. “Why people cheat, gossip, care, share, and follow the golden rule.

Evil Genes. “Why Rome Fell, Hitler Rose, Enron Failed and my Sister Stole my Mother’s Boyfriend.”

Not dealing with Scientific Reality is not helpful to anyone.


Acording to science we do not exist! If there is no God there is no Satan! There is no Good or evil ! Only culture! If you want to believe that this is all there is thats fine! I believe they have a Banter blog and there is also the Psycform they have wonderfull , meningfull , enllightining conversations there HINT HINT! Merry Christmass BSS !

Indi: If we do not exist than neither do the Sociopaths and this is all a bad dream.


blazingsallysaddles: Where do you think the writers of the books you mentioned got the wisdom to put the material together? Daaaaaaaaa, boink, it’s just came into their minds? All roads lead to GOD! If you don’t believe in God … do me a favor please … make me a flower?


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