A Lovefraud reader using the name Dawn H posted the following comment quite awhile ago. At the end of her story, she brings up important questions.
My ex and I grew up in the same small town. We were like Barbie and Ken”¦expected to marry and live happily ever after. I watched him grow from a very nice guy into a predator and a very evil person in just a few years. After our child was born he started a new wonderful job in a bank and quickly climbed the ladder to success. I put him through law school as he became distant and harsh and wouldn’t touch me. I found out he was bragging at work about secretaries’ children being his. One of his secretaries divorced her husband to sneak around with mine in sleazy motels and the whole time he was telling her that I carried a gun in my diaper bag, etc. I met and befriended her, she started fainting at work, they both got fired, and she moved away. He begged and cried and we did major counseling for a year and I dropped the divorce proceedings thinking he was well.
Over the next two or three years he was nice and took my calls at work, came home for supper, etc, but gradually grew distant and harsh again. I found out in ’04 that he had a 10-12 yr affair with another secretary from his new position as COO of a publicly traded banking company AND a woman in every port city from here to Beijing. He had been hiding his money all this time, so that when he was caught he would not have to share. He bought all his mistresses suits, jewelry, even paid for one’s house, while I had to pay utilities, my own food, my own insurance, car payment”¦everything from my teacher salary. He kept me literally broke while he was making almost half a million per yr and telling me we had no money because he was reinvesting it all in the company. If I wanted 200 for Christmas presents, he made me postdate a check for January, and he wouldn’t let go of his check until I let go of mine.
There was no intimacy for more than 15 yrs. He lied all day every day, but the strange thing was that he turned very dark. He would leave butcher knives out on the counter facing the stairs where I came down in the morning. I found out his mistress was the one who had been phone stalking me for 7 or 8 yrs, and their phone records were like 25 or 30 calls to each other every day, even though they worked side by side. At the same time he had many other young mistresses and kept them all ignorant of each other. After he was caught and we separated, he cried and became perfect all over again for a year counseling, then got caught at a sleazy motel with someone again.
I could tell that someone was breaking into my house while I was at the gym. He brought me Ultimate Woman vitamin pills with the seal broken and some missing! I found an empty Viagra box in his vanity drawer. This guy has 150 IQ. Someone was hacking into my bank records online, and I left tape recorders at the house to see what was going on there while I was out. On the phone from the house to women, he sounded like a dirty old man, talking naughty and naked and nasty. I wouldn’t have believed it was him. One day he would cry and hug the stuffing out of me apologizing, and the next day he was rude and hateful and couldn’t remember he had apologized. I knew my life was in danger and I had to change the locks etc. I had to tape record every conversation during separation and divorce proceedings, because he lied so much to attorneys, etc, that you couldn’t prove anything without recordings.
He had NO concern for our son’s feelings in any of this. The mistresses’ children grew up with him sneaking in through the fence to sleep with mommy, and the first one’s kids were calling him Daddy too. He found out this mistress aborted his child, and he doesn’t care. He told me one time during the proceedings “the girlfriend knows I do what I want and I get what I want, and she’s fine with that.” Children’s feelings are unimportant, but he is wining and dining our son now, like we’re in a contest ”¦ climbing the pyramids in Egypt ”¦ took him to the Great Wall of China ”¦ fly fishing in the Grand Canyon, etc. Bought a barge and stocks it with bongs and booze for my son’s friends, etc. No regard for the kids ”¦ it’s all about him and winning.
My interest in cases like this is, where do you draw the line? When do you bring in the attorneys and police and IRS? What about the children? If he’s been hiding money for years in other countries, are you just supposed to forget and forgive and move on? I’ve had the hardest time with that. God is so good to me, but when I start to recall all the craziness, I get shaky and lose sleep and I just can’t really go there anymore. I want to protect others from this victimization and I don’t want to be vindictive, but then again, I don’t want him hurting other young women. I would not doubt that he might be one of these trafficking guys. Did you know most of the WORLD’S trafficking is financed by middle-aged American businessmen? We need to wake up and do something quickly. This American businessman/ sociopath/ narcissist/ predator thing is getting out of hand.
Dawn H’s story is terrible. Most people would say the story is shocking, but that’s because most people are ignorant about sociopaths. All of us here at Lovefraud know that stories like Dawn’s are much more common than the uninitiated realize.
The man Dawn H described is clearly hurting many people—Dawn, her son, the bevy of mistresses, the mistresses’ kids, even American taxpayers, since the guy is hiding his money. He may even be complicit in the sordid the sex trade.
Whether our stories are as bad as Dawn’s or not, many of us ask ourselves the same questions that she asked at the end of her email: How do we respond?
We all have to find our own answers to the question. Following are the points and issues to consider. For the sake of convenience I am referring to the sociopaths as male, but they could be female as well.
Now vs. later
When we first realize what the sociopath was actually doing, that everything he told us was a lie, that we were exploited, our emotions are at a full boil. We are traumatized, disillusioned, furious, scared. We want to strike back. We want to tell the world that he is a liar. We wonder how we are going to survive. Our emotions rage back and forth between outrage and fear, worry and determination.
At this point, we need to prioritize. We need to figure out what we MUST do now, and what can wait, in fact, what MUST wait, until later.
Survival
The most important variable in deciding how to proceed is the possibility of violence. The best predictor of future violence is past violence. If the sociopath has been violent in the past—even if it wasn’t directed towards you—you must assume that he could be violent in the future, and you may be the target.
If you (and your children) are in physical danger, you need to do whatever will protect your safety. If the sociopath has committed crimes for which he is likely to be arrested and jailed, report them. But if his offenses are such that authorities are likely to regard them as a case of “he said-she said,” or he’s likely to get out on bail and come after you—well, it may be better not to poke the hornet’s nest.
Your first priority is survival. As long as you are alive, everything else can be addressed later.
Stability
Your second priority is stability. Many of us have been financially wiped out by the sociopaths. If you’re in this position, you need to take steps to insure your economic survival. If you’re married to the sociopath, and financially entangled, you need to figure out the best way to disengage that is healthiest for you in the long run.
In considering how far to go after the sociopath legally, here are questions to ask yourself:
- Does he have any assets? Does he have a job? Does he have documented income? If there is no money, there may be nothing to gain.
- Do you have proof of his money? If not, can you get it?
- Can you afford a legal battle? If not, perhaps you should just walk away.
- Can he afford a legal battle? Does he have a history of filing lawsuits? If he does, he’s likely to relish going to court, and will drag out the proceedings, costing you money.
- Do you have children with him? If yes, one of these two scenarios is likely: Either he will abandon his responsibilities and fail to pay child support, or he will maintain contact and use the children as pawns to torment you.
Your ultimate goal should be to get rid of the sociopath and move on with your life. Any financial or legal actions you take against him should support that goal.
Emotional recovery
An experience with a sociopath leaves us feeling like we’ve been through a meat grinder. Anger, disappointment, shame, guilt, fear, outrage, even numbness—we probably cycle through all of them.
It’s exhausting.
We need to find our peace of mind. For some of us, it may be the first time that we consciously pursue peace of mind. Many of us were filled with vulnerability and turmoil, which attracted the sociopaths in the first place.
In deciding how far to go after the sociopath, therefore, we must also consider our emotional recovery. Lovefraud’s standard advice for recovery from the sociopath is No Contact—not having any interaction at all with him. No conversations. No phone calls. No email. No in-person encounters.
Going after the sociopath may entail some kind of contact. If you go to court, you’ll have to deal with him. If you want to expose him on the Internet, you may need to monitor his Facebook page. This means, as we say on Lovefraud, you are “renting him space in your head.” Thinking about the sociopath is a form of contact.
On the other hand, going after him may be important to your emotional recovery. By doing it, you are not allowing him to walk all over you. Standing up to him may benefit your self-esteem, and allow you to recover your identity.
Only you know what you need.
Making the sociopath accountable
Personally, I think it’s important to do what you can to make the sociopath accountable for his destructive actions. BUT you may want to think carefully about WHEN and HOW you take action.
If you have evidence that the sociopath committed a crime, report him to the authorities. Maybe the crime you report isn’t prosecuted, but it could help establish his pattern of behavior if another person reports a crime.
If, like many Lovefraud readers, you don’t want the sociopath to do to someone else what he did to you, you may want to warn the next victim, or expose the sociopath. I’ve written previously on both of these topics:
Letters to Lovefraud: Should I warn the next victim?
Perhaps you can’t take action against the sociopath right away because you need to attend to your own safety, stability and recovery. But maybe, when you are stronger, you can do something to stop the exploitative behavior.
Sociopaths get away with their immoral, unethical and sometimes criminal behavior because people do not stand up to them. So I think that when we can do so safely, we should speak up and take action. Sociopaths will continue their destructive behavior until they are stopped.
I keep reading the title to this post- “Making the sociopath accountable: How far do you go?” and thinking about it.
How far DO you go? As far as you are comfortable with and can tolerate putting up with your own personal spath. That’s how far you go.
As far as making them accountable? Yeah, good luck with that. They have no feelings, no remorse, nothing. So why would making them accountable really accomplish anything? It wouldn’t because they simply don’t care. Push the envelope if you must, but they will find a way out. They always do, no matter what the costs or who it hurts.
Mine lies so much he doesn’t remember who he has lied to, what he has told them or even when to STOP! Hell he lies to his own family. Why would I or strangers be any different? He can’t lie to his friends because he has none. Any ideas why that might be?
His parents are his enablers so what good would it do to make him Man Up and admit to them or anyone else he has yet to grow up, act like an adult and assume any responsibility for his actions thus far.
The tiger doesn’t change his stripes and the spath doesn’t change their ways. So how far do you go to hold them accountable? How many times are you going to beat your own head against the wall, before you start beating theirs against it instead?
Hosanna- “I actually told my ex spath (the topic was sex) about reciprocal aspect of sex and the difference between “having sex” and “making love” and he said “I don’t know what you are talking about”, and he got very very angry with me.”
Mine actually hates, despises, loathes and in general cannot stand the term “Making love” Why? Because he doesn’t know how.
The act of having sex is one thing, the feeling involved in making love? Totally different and something he cannot grasp. For anyone out there reading this who knows someone like this- HUGE RED FLAG! Run like Hell while you have he chance.
@the phoenix
It never ceases to amaze me how similar these spaths are!! Yes when it comes to sex the words mutual and reciprocal need to be relevant or you may as well be a plastic doll, you are an object!! LOL! Loved your warning!! Yes, HUGE RED FLAG!! RUN!, RUN!, RUN!!
THis subject is one I have wrestled with a LOT b/c my husband commits covert fraud. Like Bernie Madoff, Lots of people won’t discover his fraud for years. His business LOOKS successful but it’s a house of cards. He has enormous high debt to equity ratio. He doesn’t pay down debt, he spends when he gets income.
MY problem in my divorce was how far do I want to take it, b/c whatever I expose, LEGALLY those people can come after the wife. Even though I had NO decision making authority, don’t know what was done, when, how much, or to whom. NOR have I received any monies or benefit. BUT when the cards fall, they LOOK at everyone. The financial/legal fallout will be hanging over my head the rest of my life b/c what I DO know is that my husband has certain business practices and I DID NOT expose him. In my defense, every time I’ve tried to expose him, people shut me down. NO ONE listens. And it only harms ME. It won’t be until multiples of others are harmed that the others will listen, and that won’t happen until it’s too late.
To The Phoenix,
No – a sociopath will never feel remorse for the wreckage they cause. But I do think, when possible, they should feel consequences.
Hosanna
Everything you said is exactly true. I was talking to another LF member about the linkage between Autism, Aspergers, and Psychopathy recently, and found this link.
I’m going to post the entire thing here, which was originally from Kathleen Hawk. You and she are saying exactly the same thing.
So, BINGO.
Athena
****POST FROM 2009****
Kathleen Hawk says:
Liane,
I want to get in early on this thread, because I have a number of problems with this article. As well as with the research behind it. As usual in a lot of this research, the conclusions reflect the questions asked, but there is little effort to understand the internal reality of either autistics or sociopaths. The question of “why are they like this?” ends at a fairly superficial level. There is little interest in the possibility that the symptoms of both conditions are actually responses to circumstances.
And your own bias in the analysis comes out with statements like “The psychopath rarely uses the thinking brain he has- to do anything other than get into trouble and hurt other people.” Which may reflect your feelings about your own experience, but is a broad generalization that is not consistent with the facts that sociopaths, especially intelligent ones, are high-functioning in many ways and have to be to mask their internal life in order to be accepted among feeling people.
I have a son who has been diagnosed with Aspergers and it has caused me to do a great deal of research on the experiences of parents of autistic children, as well as the writings of people with Aspergers and autism. This research looks into symptoms, but not causes of social alienation. And it doesn’t even begin to try.
Likewise most research on sociopaths examines their behaviors and thinking, but does not even start to examine their inner life. What is going on with them, and why are they like that? Not in terms of their current operating strategies, but what would cause those operating strategies.
I realize that I’m in the minority here, but I believe that their fundamental underlying problem is a failure of trust. I believe it is the underlying problem in RAD and other bonding disorders. And I believe that every symptom that we see with them can ultimately be explained by that. Beyond that, the failure of trust and the resulting bonding disorders orients them in a chaotic universe with nothing to depend on, including no ability to lean on and learn the security benefits of social structure whether those structures are communities, one-on-one bonding, belief in God or even respect for their own need for personal integrity. They live in a survival-level reality without rules except to survive, and they live in a pain-based reality that keeps them reeling toward addictive fixes.
The social problem involved with these people beyond the obvious damage they create in their no-holds-barred tactics for survival and pursuing addictive fixes is that they cannot learn past this failure of trust. The failure of trust closes the door to the acceptance of risk associated with social learning. In particular, they reject any strategy that involves learning to trust.
While this plays out in the symptoms, creation of social damage, and unfixability of these people, the implications from my perspective are someone different than yours. It think it’s pointless to demonize them, except as a temporary state in our own healing and getting real about what’s going on, and more important to consider prevention both of social damage and the causes of this failure of trust.
I understand that there are genetic considerations. And there may be genetic circumstances that just stack the deck too high for some individuals to avoided being triggered into permanent failure of trust. But I don’t think that is the situation with most of the garden-variety sociopaths who are creating havoc in the lives of feeling people. I think their capacity to be sociopaths was triggered by circumstance.
I think that study of these circumstances, the sensitivity of proto-sociopathic types, and the possible family and social strategies for addressing the growing problem of this type of damage and response is ultimately the the most useful area of research and action. It would also be nice if we could find a therapeutic approach to reconnect them with their social capacity, but if that is ever going to be likely (and it is not now), the answers are more likely to come from these paths of study than finding a dozen more reasons to confirm what we already know about their symptomology and its social effects.
You asked about the meaning of moral agency. Agency is power or capacity or ability to act. Moral agency is the power to link action with internal moral structure. Everyone has moral agency. The question is: what is the nature of their moral structure?
For all of us, our moral structure is a balance between what we would like to be possible and what our experience tells us is likely to present obstacles. That is we would like to be in a world that reflects our original state of total support in the womb. Where everything is there for us, and we can depend on that, and our relationship to what is around us is mutually benevolent and loving. The separation or interruption of that “Garden of Eden” ideal is based on what we have learned about what keeps us from it.
So depending on our level of trust in the ultimate benevolence of the outside world, we are open to shared consciousness, common standards and rules, life navigation based on good expectations, and feelings that we are okay as we are. If we are very damaged, or have a lot of unresolved trauma, our moral structure includes that information. And what is “right” becoming increasing based on what is necessary to survive in a dangerous and nonsupportive world.
In other words, the sociopath has morals. They are just not the morals of some one who is more socially integrated. They are the morals of the person who has learned that the structures of community were not designed for him.
And in this I agree with your viewpoint on positive and negative reinforcement. But what we are dealing with here is the result of negative reinforcement at a very deep level. A creation of a belief system based on a social dissonance that is so damaging and so profound that it has transformed despair into rigid distrust of anything but itself, and even that is warped, because its definition of self has blocked the normal human need for bonding and social dependency.
So the sociopath’s moral structure is that s/he has the right to survive and to care for himself or herself in this vaccuum. This is part of a normal human moral structure, but it is made pathological by the lack of the balancing piece of the normal human moral structure that virtually every “great good” of life derives from connection.
The difference between autistic people and sociopaths (or people with that spectrum of emotional disorder) is that the autistic drama is fundamentally a need to adjust to internal conditions, not external. What I’ve gathered from reading and from my experience with my son is that autistic people have intense sensory sensitivities and related anxiety issues that require them to invest a lot of attention in managing their internal “weather.” A need for order, high-focus and various types of disassociation are typical responses.
The causes of this are neuro-electrical and brain chemical issues, not trauma-related personality disorder. My personal belief is that a lot of it is a complex issue related bacterial and fungal overgrowth related to diet and use of antibiotics. It doesn’t mean that there aren’t issues of established neural pathways for coping, as there are with other types of trauma response, but a great deal of progress has been made with diet-related strategies as well as direct work on the neural pathways through neuro-feedback.
To get back to moral agency in terms of autistics, their moral structure or belief system about what is good reflects what they have learned about what is good for them. Their battle is not with an uncaring world, but with an overactive sensory response and their need to manage their persistent and well-established reactive anxiety. They have no need to be predatory in the sense that sociopaths are. But they do have a deep need to create order that relieves their symptoms.
I hope this makes sense. I do appreciate your work in attempting to make sense of all of this. But I deeply wish there was less effort placed on demonizing sociopaths and more at understanding the temperamental types that are at risk and developing programs to support their maintenance of some level of trust before they are triggered to give it up permanently. I am not suggesting enabling, but providing loving supportive mechanisms to integrate them successfully into communal social structures.
I believe this is possible, especially if the formative years can be navigated successfully, and I believe their temperament is also the temperament of great people, of heroes and leaders and high achievers. That one issue the belief in the reality of trust makes the difference between preserved and lost potential, both personally and in the context of society as a whole.
Respectfully,
Kathy
FreetoBeME
Yes, wording is there but wording won’t protect when/if a lawsuit happens. Wives divorcing from an spath really have no legal protection when it comes to fraud b/c a married couple are seen as ONE, and both are financially responsible for the other’s debts that occurred during the marriage. No matter what. Innocent spouse is near impossible to prove, can’t be just my word. And when an spath husband has done a right smart job of smearing the gold digging B* wife, I am at the mercy of what is unpredictable. Best to deal with it by not worrying what MIGHT be.
@callmeathena
Wow, again I am amazed how similar they are!! Thank you for sharing this! Kathy does a much better job explaining what I was trying to share! Fantastic post! Very validating and affirming information! Interesting…You know he was always accusing me of not being able to trust (projecting)!! He was correct, I did not trust him at all, I learned no to trust him, but I am blessed with many friends and family that I strongly trust!
Yes, it is true. For me, what is helping is the non-demonizing part. I think about spathiness as being a two year old child. A two year old child (setting aside the cute factor) is mostly is just thinking about a two year old baby’s own needs (to suck, to have the diaper changed, to take a nap, to be seen) and they run around and damage stuff. If I think about my spath being a undeveloped child, he seems a lot less sinister and scary.
@callmeathena
I agree, I am also seeking better understanding in all of this. But I also have to keep reminding myself that my ex spath stabbed a man in the chest 5 times in a bar fight, molested an 8 year old girl, took several pornographic photos of her, committed bigamy, adultery and fraud, punched his daughter’s mother in the eye, abused me and physically restrained me from leaving my house, and he stole my property twice, and is currently slandering me online soooo…he actually is pretty sinister and scary even if there is something broken in his ability to function!