Jackson Katz is author of The Macho Paradox—why some men hurt women and how all men can help. Last year he spoke at a TED conference. His basic message is that violence against women is not just a women’s issue—it is a men’s issue. After all, men are committing most of the violence.
I am glad to see a man speaking out on this issue towards men. Most of his presentation was terrific. However, about three-quarters of the way through, Katz makes the statement, “The typical perpetrator is not sick and twisted, he’s a normal guy in every other way.”
Is this true?
Abraham Maslow once said, “If you only have a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.” So I wonder if, to paraphrase Maslow, “When you’ve experienced sociopaths, you tend to see all bad behavior as a personality disorder.”
Here are my questions to Lovefraud readers: Is there such thing as a man who is normal in every way, except he is violent towards women? Do you know of anyone who engages in violence against women who is not sociopathic, or does not have sociopathic traits?
Please express your views.
Donna, I consider the person whose violence I experienced quite disordered, but not actually a sociopath. He may have been enabled by a father who was sociopathic. Actually the most sociopathic person I got mixed up with was absolutely not violent with me — might have had a single incident with his former wife (which I learned of from her).
I think this author is trying to get people to think of this issue as connected to *them*. He also no doubt believes that perpetrators are not the cookie-cutter cut-outs that other people would sometimes make them out to be. (Honestly, I get upset at the generalizations I sometimes read here in the comments sections myself.) I think he may be thinking sloppily. And he may himself be able to relate to an occasional violent mindset (don’t know if he confesses violence in his book), so naturally he thinks it happens to “normal” guys…
I also think the brand of sociopath may be different with a chronically violent person than a non-violent parasite or discarder. I associate some things with excessive attachment and other things with deficient attachment. I may have been mistaken, but I have associated emotional violence with hands, like stalking, with excessive attachment as opposed to deficient.
Premeditated killing is obviously another matter altogether.
So I think this author’s statement goes too far but at present I don’t think he is completely off.
Raggedy Ann: Thank you for sharing your insight. I think it can be tough to know for sure that an abusive person is truly a sociopath or not. I absolutely agree with you that verbal and emotional abuse is just as devastating (worse for some victims) and I think we should picture it as their hands at work even if they aren’t bruising someone. Restraining a victim is another way to be physically abusive without leaving marks and it is terrifying.
tria
you are very correct domestic violence is not specific to a gender in fact 40% of all domestic violence victims are men,and in European countries as high as 60%, the reason its higher there is men are more willing to confront or involve law enforcement in the acts! in the us men in the last 5 years are more and more realizing its okay to admit the abuse and seek help, in our shelter the mens groups have exploded and we have even started to combine the groups, abuser male or female all have the same traits just as spaths do and its also a proven fact female spaths are more on the violent side of the spectrum, a sociopath is a sociopath some have different traits but the core exists, Donna was talking about spaths and custody battles the other day they dont change or transform the reason they change is they have to fight harder to maintain the power and control, and in those situations the truth comes out, and everyone knows nothing irritates a spath more than losing power or the truth coming out about them, thats why i beleive they fight harder a spath or a abuser never wants the truth to come out if it does there victim base is narrowed down, its easier for people to see through the curtains covering there secrets,
Katz seems to be trying to raise awareness through emphasising that the average perpetrator of violence against women is ” normal” by which I assume he means they go undetected, do not act out violently in public, and do not have horns. This is an important point to emphasis.
Violence is not defined – I assume Katz was talking in specific terms about acts of physical violence and by extention sexual violence. These are criminal acts in all civilised societies. Ergo the men that commit these acts are not “normal” by any reasonable person’s standards. They are engaging in behaviours society deems a violation of another’s rights, offenses which are punishable – in theory more than in practice, for complex reasons we are all aware of.
Does commiting violence against a woman indicate a personality disorder? Well, if these acts may in some cases be commited by alcoholics when drunk, who when sober are capable of empathy. My father was in this category. A mess, dangerous when drunk, a terrible parent, but not a sociopath. Men however who act out sober, well they are clearly lacking empathy and clearly exhibiting sociopathic traits.
Donna,
What I got from listening to the video was that Katz was saying that not only are women often battered by men;but their sons also suffer.Thus it is just as much a men’s issue as a woman’s issue.And it is traumatic for a son to watch the father who he worships beat up on the mother he loves.Either the son will be determined to be different than the father,or no matter how hard he tries….he may mirror his father,to his great sorrow.So,I wouldn’t say that every man who hits his wife is a sociopath&vice versa.Sometimes environmental stressors do have alot to do with it.
It depends alot upon the history of the person;if there are red flags.
Another point I got from Katz’s video was that we should never be silent bystanders.He used the term “leadership” rather than “sensitivity training” to describe doing the right thing.I wish more men would see this video!
i like his three points right off the bat that associate a spath with a abuser
challenging power
a spath/abuser will do everything to keep control power
victim blaming
its never the spath/abuser fault always the victims actions caused the rage anger abuse control
kill the messenger
a spath/abuser will do whatever it takes to kill the messenger, they must hide there horns keep looking good in public and privates eyes, no one can ever see or hear what they do
so those are three very distinct pieces that fit both the abuser and spath, where do we start defining a fine line between spath abusers and non spath abuser its more than just empathy, at domestic violence.org they state there is no typical abuser but the key factor is they only abuse behind closed doors,
here is there quote
Abuse is not an accident. It does not happen because someone was stressed-out, drinking, or using drugs. Abuse is an intentional act that one person uses in a relationship to control the other. Abusers have learned to abuse so that they can get what they want. The abuse may be physical, sexual, emotional, and psychological.
Abusers often have low self-esteem. They do not take responsibility for their actions. They may even blame the victim for causing the violence. In most cases, men abuse female victims. It is important to remember that women can also be abusers and men can be victims.
so by this domestic violence abusers and sociopaths are one in the same, and its real hard to argue that point in both male and female cases
TI: Did you watch the video? I would also like to see the statistical research citing such high numbers of women beating up men in Europe.
TI, where do the stats which indicate 60% of domestic violence in Europe is female on male violence?
TI, where do the stats which indicate 60% of domestic violence in Europe is female on male violence? Here are the figures from Walby and Allen’s 2004 report into UK inter-personal violence; 45% of women and 25% of men report one incident of inter- personal violence. However where 4 or more incidents have been experienced, 89% of victims are women.
So ongoing domestic and sexual violence is, in the UK, overwhelmingly a problem of male violence against their female partners.
Domestic violence is not a crime in Russia, by the way. Please support attempts to change this all.
Thank you, Tea Light. Education and research are the most powerful tools in the world. Thank you for giving us the correct statistics.
Tria: So sorry to hear that your daughter is a sociopath. People here have much empathy for family members of sociopaths. Hopefully, her boyfriend will be able to get away from the situation when he is able to make that decision. Unfortunately, he may end up getting somewhat brainwashed and stay which happens to so many victims of abusers and/or sociopaths. It certainly has happened to me. That love/hate spell is hard to break away from because sociopaths study their targets to know what to do and how to control. He is lucky he has your support against your daughter’s violence.
At the top of this page, Donna Anderson has a link specifically about female sociopaths. You might be able to get this information to your daughter’s boyfriend. Once he begins to educate himself, he will be able to make decisions based on education about a female sociopath who is attacking him.
As far as your statement about who would be sitting in jail. I will share a short story with you. My niece was repeatedly verbally, emotionally, and physically attacked in front of her little girls by their father/her husband. To protect herself and her children, she would jump in front of him, he would knock her down, and she would scratch him or hit him to escape and tell her girls to run. Any time the police were called, she was told that because her violent, drug addicted husband had gotten “scratched or bruised” while knocking her around or once hitting her with his fist in the face, that SHE would also be arrested. She was told her children would be taken into protective services and she would be arrested because her violent husband got a scratch while threatening to kill her and trying to do it.
Now, that just may be in my hillbilly state. But, I have an idea a lot of police do this to avoid having to do their jobs. When this now ex-husband of hers finally was recorded threatening to kill her and the girls and knocked her onto a brick fireplace where she hit her head, and his brave 9 year old daughter was willing to sign a report about what he had done, he was charged. He never spent a day in jail and my niece divorced him after a few months of counseling. Perpetrators of either gender are rarely taken to jail because police officers are lazy.
Other than that, statistics are statistics. Men are bigger. Men are more privileged around the world. However, there is education for men being victimized by female sociopaths here. There is also a book called The Manipulative Woman which could be of much help to the boyfriend.
My understanding of the context of this video is that it is targeted towards men who are not violent so they will get involved in any family, neighbor, friend situations if they see men they know behaving violently. Many men bully everyone….not just women and children at home. Since statistics show that an overwhelming majority of violence is by men against females they claim to love, you will see more articles that coincide with those statistics.
Men and women often don’t report violence, so all of the statistics may not be perfect. But, the number of women compared to men who need shelter and help with child care to escape is much higher than men. Those are the facts. The statistics don’t diminish the fact that there are female perpetrators.
The british crimes survey released january
2013 states that the rate of domestic
Violence victims jumped from 45.5 % in 2008 to 59.3 % in 2012 and of severe crimes
Against victims 48.6 % where against men, also you can look up current stats from mankind
Initiative largest domestic violence group in the uk, something easily forgoten is there are
A lot of same sex victims from the glbt community, we can argue about stats all day long but like
It or not women are abusers and more now than in 2004 because its more accepted for men to come forward, I am the lead counselor in a shelter that services over 1000 victims and we are at a steady 40 percent male victims, its happening everyday and just like above instead of discussing traits and similarities and trying to find solutions there is argument for who gets hurt more, this is exactly why laws don’t get passed and progress is hindered in our system don’t bash the man don’t bash the women bash the abuser whatever gender they are they are the party thats wrong
TI with respect the Mankind Initiative are not the largest domestic violence organisation in the UK. They are the most prominent organisation lobbying for awareness of domestic violence against men. Yes, men are victims. Yes, lesbian women abuse their partners. Yes, gay men abuse their partners. But all the evidence indicates that ongoing abuse in interpersonal relations is conducted by men against women. Does this fact negate the trauma male victims experience? No. Does it mean female perpetrators should not be prosecuted? No. But a fact it remains.
One of the hallmarks of psychopathy is blaming the victim and presenting as a victim. Male psychopaths are more than capable of reporting falsely that they are the ‘ victims’ of violence at the hands of women they in fact have abused. This may be an area in need of research.
The edit function isn’t working on my phone. ” the great majority of ongoing abuse” is how it should read.
Thanks, Tea Light: I wondered about that. If I see a Personkind or even a Humankind Initiative, I might find that more reputable. We might need to stay where the rocks are gray…in a place called Equality for all Humans Initiative Land.
TI: Did you watch the video?
He discusses that statistically males are the perpetrators most of the time. He does discuss that there is a lot of male on male violence and men against male and female children including violent sexual assaults.
This is a discussion about male perpetrators if you watch the video. This is because the majority of violence is perpetrated by men. This can be fist fights between men. It can be men murdering other men. It can be domestic violence against men, women, and children. I prefer to call it “household terrorism.” I think the reason “domestic violence” doesn’t get addressed appropriately is because the word “domestic” sounds so nice.
He does discuss that women and children are often discounted which is true. He also states that the reason good, non-violent men need to think of violence as a men’s issue because, statistically, violent men are the major perpetrators of a large majority of violence. He does not say that women are never violent. The statistics you are sharing discuss violence against men going up since the last report. However, is that violence perpetrated BY men? Yes, as has been cited here, a large majority of all violence against men, women, and children is violence by men. Therefore, it is a men’s issue (men who have issues with civilized, appropriate behavior) and the men who create the issue need to be accountable for it. I hope you will watch the video. A non-violent, good man should have no problem with what Katz is saying at all.
TI-9136 – thank you for your perspective. Many Domestic violence organizations say that abusers have low self-esteem. Some experts say the same about sociopaths. However, Dr. Leedom argues that this isn’t true. Sociopaths, and abusers, have high self-esteem, even when they don’t deserve it. This is what feeds their sense of entitlement, and the sense that they have the right to exert power and control over others.
Thank you, Donna, for more of your treasure trove of educational and statistical information.
I have experienced the inordinate sense of privilege and high self esteem in most of the sociopaths I have experienced. All were abusive in some way…especially emotionally. I find that the first “stories” they tell involve what you have called the “pity play” where they say they were abused in some way as children. Then, when I investigate further, I find that they just had the same amount of dysfunction the average person has and they pick out a few examples of bad parenting looking for pity and acting as if their whole childhood was a nightmare. It wasn’t true. I do find that in some cases, their identities were denied them in different ways. However, they had very high self esteem and had developed personas that could charm whatever they wanted out of whomever they wanted…and they laugh while they’re doing it.
Well, there’s one “angle” from which I agree with Dr. Katz’s statement– while I personally would not consider such individuals or their behavior as ‘normal,’ people who were brought up in certain kinds of environments BELIEVE that abuse toward women IS normal.