By | April 15, 2011 137 Comments

Might does not make right

By Ox Drover

Sometimes former victims of psychopaths have voiced to me that they just want others to know that the psychopath was not the victim, but the abuser. Former victims are frustrated that others don’t recognize someone is an abuser. Many times the actual victim has instead been painted by the real abuser as the “bad guy.”

I remember reading a letter from my psychopathic son from his prison cell who told me in the letter he knew that I had to be the one who was “wrong” because he got along with everyone in the family circle and I got along with no one, so therefore I had to be the one “in the wrong.”

Well, democratically voting on something does not make something “right,” it only means that something is “popular—”but not necessarily right. Back in the days when everyone thought the world was flat, and Columbus was about the only one that thought it was “round,” popular opinion did not change the shape of the earth! While in this country we are proud of our democratic system of government, voting on something is not always the most “fair” way to pick a choice. Sometimes “democracy” is like two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner tonight! The bad guys gang up on the weaker ones and take advantage, but that doesn’t make it “fair” or right.

One of the most frequent ploys of the psychopathic abuser is to initiate what is frequently referred to as “the smear campaign.” This may actually start behind the victim’s back while there is active victimization going on between the abuser and the victim, or it may start after the victim has either escaped or been discarded by the psychopath. The psychopath starts to talk badly about the victim to others in their circle, to destroy the credibility of the victim so that if and when the victim starts to talk about him/her to others, they are viewed as the scorned lover or business partner spreading hateful rumors, when in fact, just the opposite is true.

Unfortunately, many times by the time the actual victim realizes that the lies have been spread about them, the damage is done and there is no effective way to counter the damage done by the abuser and their duped accomplices. Many times these accomplices of the abuser are actually unaware that they are accomplices, and are acting in good faith to “protect” what they perceive as a “victim” from the person they now consider an abuser.

The abuser/psychopath recruits as many of these unsuspecting accomplices as possible so that the “consensus” of opinion is that “all these people can’t be wrong.” The sheer numbers of supporters that a psychopath can sometimes recruit is unbelievable. The “gang mentality” takes over sometimes, and the poor legitimate victim is victimized again by having their reputation besmirched. Sometimes they lose their livelihoods, as well as their self-esteem and self-confidence.

Our reputation is important to most of us, and our self-confidence is also important to us, and the strength of an attack from not only the psychopathic adversary, but their dupes and accomplices as well, can destroy that reputation and self-confidence. Sometimes it destroys lives.

In order to survive this attack, we must first understand that “might (and numbers) does not make right.” We must also understand that we can validate the truth, and that our own validation of that truth may be the only validation that we can obtain. We may not be able to convince “others” that we were not the abuser; we may not be able to publicly verify that we were the one who suffered unjustly. We may not be able to prove in a court of law that we were the victims of a psychopath. We may have to raise our heads and to walk away from the situation, emotionally wounded and bleeding, while we see our abuser “skip off merrily into the sunset,” apparently none the worse for wear.

Life isn’t always “fair” and many times those who most deserve justice seem to get the least of it, but we can achieve closure within ourselves. We can find validation of our own personal truths, and no matter what the “vote” is, it doesn’t change that truth. It can be enough to sustain us.



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Sage advice, once again Oxy. Very good food for thought and thank you.

Brings to mind, as you refer to the damage done to our “reputation” etc. is also the damage done to our “ego”. The image we have constructed of ourselves. The encounter with the P and our response to them, is, I think closely tied to our own image of ourselves.

When we first “fall” for them, we attach part of our own self perception to being tied up with them and who we believe they are. We see our being special to them as something good and a credit to who we are.

When we discover that we have attached to a monster, our own self image is threatened and sometimes almost destroyed.

Learning to detach from thei association of our “self” being wrapped up with their “fake” self is part of the long and complicated journey to healing.

I now think of it as an abberation, a twist in the path, a wrong turn, in my journey, but not in fact a repudiation of “who” or “what” I am.

Not well articulated, but perhaps you get the drift.

My computer is crashing now, so I will do the same. Got infected with a virus- a predatory one! Ha. Will have to purge the system in the morning. Sounds so familar doesn’t it?
Peace and love, A


It’s amazing just how much is damaged by a sociopath. People you thought should know you better, somehow immediately believe the sociopath. Your not believed. You try to explain your situation but no one is really interested. Not interested enough to really listen and try to understand. Unless you have dealt with a sociopath you cannot fathom just how dark and twisted these people are. I have lost many friends and family members due to my sociopath and his lies and venom. I have tried to explain to these people what sociopaths are about and have even asked that they come onto this site and read for themselves. No one actually takes the time to research and the sociopath is believed and I’m now considered the crazy angry one. No one wants to look at the mounds of evidence I have gathered trying to sort the sociopaths messes out. If people close to me actually took the time to consider the type of person that I have been for the last 36 years, to listen to what I am asking and research for themselves about sociopaths and maybe take the time to review the evidence I have collected then they would get a different picture I’m sure. The problem is people are inherantly lazy and are quick to judge. People see situations through their own experiences and if they haven’t experienced a sociopath then they cannot input that data into their equation.
I’ve been feeling really low lately and in need of validation that I’m not crazy. That just because he can turn people against me doesn’t mean that he is right. Thankyou for this post. It was very well timed and it has made a difference in my life. Its really nice to know that other people actually do understand, even if the people closest to me don’t.

Dear Ox Drover,

This has hit the core of some of my deepest grief.

Because of my sister’s magnificent manipulations that have been pervading our family for years, I am considered to be an evil monster, while she is perceived as a perpetually persecuted victim. It escalated to its worst when my mother died a few years ago, and now it feels as though when I lost her, I lost my whole family.

The good news is that she hasn’t reached all of the extended family, so some will still talk with me. The bad news is that she has reached those with whom I was closest growing up, who now shun me.

Thank you for addressing this aspect of the pain of psychopathy, and so spot on.



This raises an excellent point. WE MAY NEVER GET OUTSIDE VALIDATION. Period. That is something we have to accept. People that I lived around throughout the entire nightmare, 22 yrs 8 mos, (more than HALF of my life), People I had no choice but to make part of my life, consider family etc., all are still in the psychopathic grid. The funny thing is, most of them seems to know there is something tragically wrong with this creature but they either jusitfy his antics towards othere people or accept it and say “wish I knew what to say”. My reply to them is nothing. The law of life and thier disloyalty will eventually shed some light on them. The day I left for good with my mind solidly made up to leave it behind, ALL of it, I let all of them go too. Not with hatred, but as part of a past I no longer want to be part of. So, for ourselves, at least for me personally, I can throw a seed of truth out there to someone who may be in danger of him, if they take it fine, if not, well, God help them. And its not my place to keep trying to convince them. As was stated in this well written article, we only need convince ourselves.
It IS a continuing journey.


Hi Oxy,
such a nice article.
we do not need external validation. our gut and our knowledge is our validation.
enough is enough.
we have to make our own closure.
thanks for this timely article.
LL is thinking of a road trip, it will be incomplete without you. Lets see how we can work it out and meet each other.

Ox Drover

Dear guys, glad that you enjoyed the article, and you added so many great points as well.

I can remember how MUCH I wanted that external validation….and How I literally BEGGED for it during the summer of chaos. It was not forth coming.

Looking BAD years from that summer, I see that with other people who were high in P-traits that I worked with, one who actually probably would have “qualified” to be professionally diagnosed, though she held (for a fairly short time) a high level of management in the hospital system I worked in, DESTROYED that hospital system with her smears and her control, until actually every nurse, but one, in the entire hospital left. Eventually, the entire hospital was sold because of this one woman. She played the victim role and recruited her dupes.

Sometimes the dupes end up destroying themselves as well and becoming either collateral damage or actual victims as well, but sometimes they never even comprehend the damage they have done to the lives, reputations and hearts of those that they UNJUSTLY label as “abusers.”

Shakey’s point about people being “lazy” is actually a good one, though I would use a different way of expressing it. They believe the FIRST thing they hear. After that, it is EFFORT to change that opinion, so they do not expend the energy necessary to do so. So, by getting to others with their story FIRST the psychopath gets a decided JUMP on the victim who doesn’t know the smear campaign is going on.

Talking behind the victim’s back, literally “back biting,” or “back stabbing,” is one of the first and quite frankly MOST SUCCESSFUL tactics of the smear campaign.

Being able to emotionally turn loose of this (on our parts) was one of the hardest parts for me….whether it was in the professional setting or the personal setting. It seems like “turning loose” of it—letting it go without trying to mount a defense–seems like we are “giving up” and “letting them win.”

In fact, our urge to fight is in many cases very counter productive. First because it IS DIFFICULT/IMPOSSIBLE to convince others we aren’t guilty as charged,, and secondly, because even if we do fight it, because we Usually “lose” that fight we feel even more abused.

Grasping early on that sometimes there just “ain’t no justice” and that fighting against that is like jousting at windmills, and just holding our heads up high, and going on with our lives in an upright manner is better “proof” than all the documents and arguments we can muster against the smear.


Well, I’m not quite sure about anyone else, but I did two super terribly awful things when the truth about my ex was revealed to me.

Two days after we returned from a beach weekend together to celebrate his birthday was the day I found out he was a stone cold liar. I was in a rage and I went into our house – I was staying with friends – but I still had the key. I still had several high ticket items there (two high def flat screens some chairs – I left the creepy mask from Mexico) and I smashed up my stuff along with some plants in pots we bought together.

It wasn’t pretty and he wasn’t home. Ironically enough he was out on a date with the girl he cheated on me with in Mexico.

I was sick to death after I did it. It was an awful terrible thing to do. But I was in so much shock because I found out he had been lieing to me for seven months about his infidelity. It was in that moment that I realized he lied to me about everything else – his ex wife, his two children’s mother and just about everything else.

I wanted him to know I was angry and hurt.

Several months later in November I found out from one of his work colleagues that he had been shamelessly flirting with his public relations assistant since he started working with her which would have covered the time we were happily together still. I couldn’t believe it. My brain went nutty again. I sent an email to his bosses, his father and stepmother and the girl who he was with in Mexico and dating for months while we were trying to work it out. I told them everything – the lies about him telling me his wife was a lesbian, about some of the lies I participated, about the 24-year-old girlfriend and the countless other women from his circle of colleagues that I suspected he had slept with. And I told them I thought he was using his discetionary funds from his work budget to buy dinners, drinks etc to woo for his own purposes not for the work he does. (It’s a gray area when you take people out for business.) But he had expensed some of our evenings and lunches when we were first together, so I had my reasons for the accusations.

At any rate, I know these things were was a totally insane horrible things to do – in fact he took out a restraining order on me so he would look like the victim – maybe he was in this case – but at the moment I sent the emails, I wanted others to know what a horrible monster he is. And I think in some ways I wanted his family at least to get him some help.

So there it is. Does that make me a spath too? I’ve never done anything even remotely similar in my entire life. Ever.

Ox Drover

Dear Onebeliever,

NO!!!! That does not make you a psychopath! LOL (((hugs))) it makes you an injured party who struck back.

The smear campaign that they do is sneakier usually than that outright attack….it is SLIME usually, showing them to be the victim.

Your behavior played along with his lies about what a crazy biatch you are…but I totally understand your anger—your JUSTIFIABLE ANGER.

Many of us have “struck back” IN ONE WAY OR ANOTHER when we were injured because that is the NATURAL HUMAN REACTION to being injured. There is even research that shows that the human brain pleasure center “lights up” when we even contemplate much less DO vengeful things. So welcome to reality.

Now forgive yourself, understand why you did it. It wasn’t a good thing to do, but it is definitely UNDERSTANDABLE….so “get over it” and don’t beat yourself up over what you did in a justifiable rage. (((hugs))))


Thank you, Ox Drover.

You have no idea how much better I feel right now. Obviously not a lot of people in my life know about those horrible things I did, so your words here have an amazing healing power for me.

I feel like crying with happiness right now.

I am not a vengeful person. But I really felt like he stole everything from me including my good standing (everyone thought I broke up his marriage – happy homewrecker) along with a lot of my pride and dignity and a good portion of my life. (I’ll be 41 in May.)

I’m working hard to earn everything back.

Thank you again.


Ox Drover

Dear Onebeliever,

Your anger or shall we say even rage was a natural and normal and justifiable feeling…acting on it may not have been so wise, but believe me if I had to take off a piece of clothing and pull out a hair off my head for everything I have done in my life that was UNWISE, I’d be standing here naked and BALD!!! LOL

Believe me there are worse things you could have done….and I’ve thought about a whole lot worse than what you did…but the thing is that we must realize that just because “more people” believe something doesn’t make it any more right or true.

They smear us—without or without us doing something like you did—they slime us as Skylar says and many times there is not a darned thing in the world we can do to UN-do the damage that they do to us and what people think about us.

Many people will “believe” these things about us, even people that we THOUGHT knew and cared about us….unfortunately, gossip is “juicy” and “fun” and “drama” and WHY DO YOU THINK “SOAP OPERAS” which are nothing but stories about psychopaths wrecking other’s lives have been SO POPULAR since the time of the Greek Tragedies?

So get over your guilt about what you did…it is past. You acknowledge that it wasn’t a wise thing to do, or a good thing to do, but hey, you did it…you recognize what it was and why, so let it go. Don’t spend the rest of your life or even one more day feeling guilty about it. You destroyed stuff that belonged to you, you told people the truth…you didn’t hurt anyone so quit sweating it! (((hugs))) and God bless you!

lesson learned


This is a very timely article for so many here enduring the smear campaigns by their P’s. I learned after my marriage with exP was over, that it was better to just walk away. Eventually, his outrageous behavior isolated him from his own family. ONce they saw his behavior, particularly towards the kids and that it didn’t line up with his words, they believed me. But by then, it was too late for me.

Thanks for posting this article Ox.


Ox Drover

Dear LL,

From what you said about your family, and their controlling ways, though, I think all his smear campaign did was to bring out the MALICE that was already there with them, so in the end, you didn’t lose any thing I don’t think.

The smear campaign also alienated me from my “family” (my egg donor and my son C) but you know what, I didn’t lose anything either….there had been malice there before the smear campaign and all the campaign did was to bring it to a BIG HEAD.

That is also the case with many of these smear campaigns…people who don’t really care about you but are “polite to your face” become rude or hateful, but they didn’t give a big rat’s behind about you anyway.

I ran into a woman at the auction one night…her daughter-in-law was my egg donor’s maid 2-3 times a week, and she was a raving BIATCH, she went around smearing me to everyone who would listen and her MIL actually verbally attacked me at the auction as I was talking to HER SISTER who is my neighbor and has known me well all my life….anyway, thishnateful woman came up and said in a HATEFUL TONE OF VOICE loud enough for bystanders to hear “WELL, that’s NOT the way I heard it!”

Well, since I did not know this woman and her oNLY CONNECTION to me or my story was her biatchy toxic daughter who was hearing and spreading rumors from my egg donor—even after my DIL and the TH-P were arrested for trying to kill son C and stealing money from egg donor—but you know, it upset me at the time, but now I realize that THIS WOMAN IS NOTIHNG ***NOTHING*** TO ME. Her daughter in law got killed a car wreck a few months later and I sent a sympathy card to the family (the mother of the maid) and they cashed my check for $100 but didn’t even acknowledge getting it with a thank you card. How’s that! I actually sent it just to see if they would acknowledge it. LOL I am such a witch! But actually I KNOW that these people spread gossip and hate about me, but I have realized that they are NOT IMPORTANT in my life. They don’t control my job, income or anything else. If they are talking about me, they are leaving others alone.

At the time though, I was SO RAW that it hurt, but now I have a completely different take on it all.

So, I KNOW THE TRUTH….my egg donor knows the truth, even though she is a liar…THE HATEFUL SISTER OF MY NEIGHBOR IS NO ONE TO ME—and my neighbor..well, I’m not sure what she believes, she’s nice to my face but in the end, NONE OF WHAT THEY BELIEVE CHANGES THE TRUTH.

Everyone in the community that even slightly knows me, knows I took care of my step dad 24/7 and my egg donor for 18 months, so they can think what they want to. I am okay with that.

In the end, LL, if we can count our REAL friends (not just acquaintences) on the fingers of both hands we are WEALTHY IN FRIENDS. People who think they have LOTS **DOZENS OR HUNDREDS** of “friends” are fooling themselves, because I can guarantee that when the chips are down, only a few–will really come through for you. Call up someone at 2 a.m. and tell them you are stranded on the freeway 100 miles from home and will they come get you? and SEE how many come! LOL Call up some of your “friends” and tell them you just lost your house and see how many will give you a place to stay for even a week.

I’ve BEEN the kind of friend that dropped everything and went to help my friends….sometimes I got shafted, sometimes they returned the favors….but you know either way, I am not going to “enable” people who don’t do as much as they can for themselves and let them “mooch” off me, but I am going to be supportive of my REAL Friends. Those others don’t matter. LLL.

Glad you enjoyed the article.



Once again you hit the nail on the head. Oh boy. The smear campaign is going strong. I realized that he had started this years ago, probably around 7 years ago.

I was depressed, my thyroid had stopped working and I didn’t know it. I felt like I was in a fog and was drinking one night and threated suicide. I’m embarassed that I got to that point, it seemed that everything was my fault and I didn’t understand why I couldn’t be happy (spath kept telling me that as well). The next day spath wanted to put me in the lock down in the mental ward.

I never hurt myself, I threatened to hurt myself. Is that enough to put someone in the mental ward? I don’t think so. I begged for him to not send me away and I would get help. He was looking for a way to make me the scapegoat and him the victim. His friends always looked at me like they felt sorry for me and it took my awhile to realize that he was smearing me big time.

He was telling me how much he loved me while smearing me. “I was just worried about you”, “When I called you crazy, I didn’t literally mean crazy”. B.S.

Oxy-The validation thing was the hardest for me and I was so grateful for lovefraud and all of you here. He even pulled the wool over the eyes of a phd.

So as he continues to gather his dupes in believing that I’m loony I have to firmly believe that one day he will get his. I would like to back spath but I think it will somehow be turned against me. All the proof in the world won’t change someones mind who is under his spell. They just would not believe me.

I do admit, when the mediator asked what was wrong with him I did feel validated. I may never get that with mutual friends and not from his family but I don’t need it. As other people here have had to deal with this issue I know that you understand.

It’s really astounding how convincing they are. It’s like dark magic.

Every time I speak with spath he gives me the crapola about how he misses me and wants to get back together and loves me still. Right. I don’t know what he has to gain from convincing me to get back together but who really wants to know what goes through their heads?

lesson learned


I learned a long time ago that I’m better off without the fam. I don’t have contact with ex’s fam and I don’t have contact with mine. There is no “loss” to me anymore, as far as I’m concerned, because there was nothing there to begin with. It was a painful process to let go of my bio fam. Holidays, birthdays are still very hard, but I know I’m better off. My circle that use to be, are becoming just that. USE to be. Instead, I’m meeting new people now, off this blog too and I am blessed. Going to DV group, now finally found a therapist….things feel markedly different than they did four months ago.

I was a people pleaser and a giver and I too, would do anything for anyone that needed it, shafted or not. I’ve put a lid on that for awhile so I can do some self care. I spent so much time looking after others, including my ex, that I’m pretty well exhausted. I can’t take care of others adequately unless I take care of me first. That’s HARD to do. But I can tell you that if someone REALLY needed my help, I would gladly give it, but not at the expense of myself again.

Right now, my children matter to me and those that are close to me. Very few mind you. But I’m learning to be okay with that too and count my blessings. Sometimes, it’s lonely, but I’d rather be lonely and feel a little bored at times (drama is down) than be stuck in what I was.

I think it takes guts to see deeply into yourself, cut off what isn’t good for you, and create another, healthier life. I think all of us here are doing that.

I’m really lucky, in some small way, that i was the OW with my last spath. He doesn’t want me known lol! Would be a huge red flag for new gf and you can bet she knows nothing of me. She may never find out, but it spares me the smear campaign, so in that light, I’m better off.



Ox Drover,

This is another good article. The only solution is to walk away, making an effort to put the bad memories out of your mind. I have come across as an emotional wreck, probably looking like a nut at times due to how I’ve reacted. You can bet that I’ve had plenty of unpleasant things to say about the spath, not always being proud of myself. When you are forced to experience constant craziness, it’s hard not to react in a crazy manner – you’re totally off kilter, so it can be expected that you might come across as irrational, emotional, charged up.

lesson learned


Spaths do things on purpose to provoke their targets. Then they stand their calmly and act as if you’re the crazy one. It’s the most insane behavior I’ve ever seen in my life.


Ox Drover

Yep, Blue and they USE THAT AGAINST US….they gaslight until we appear crazy then label us crazy—-WTF? Yep, but once we see what is going on, then we can realize that if WE DO NOT ALLOW THEM TO, THEY CAN’T MAKE US CRAZY—or appear crazy!

The best defense is to hold our heads up high and LIVE A GOOD LIFE. It is also the best revenge. They will always have a black hole for a life, even if from the outside it looks “pretty” WE KNOW it is not.


lesson learned and Ox Drover,

The spath has told me “it’s you, it’s you,” trying to get me to think that I am the one with the problem, having made this statement (to me) after confronting him about some of his misdeeds. You realize that you’re dealing with an abnormal human being – he doesn’t think straight, but CROOKED. We have all dealt with insane situations due to spaths, no doubt about it. It’s hard not to think that these folks aren’t wacko, out of touch with reality (even though they seemingly function okay). There’s just too much weirdness that goes on.


Thanks for writing this Oxy,
It’s something that also bothers me, that I was slandered and continue to be slandered, especially to the cops, so that they would attack me on command.

I need to let it go, write it down and move on.


experts in psychopathy everywhere point out they’re not insane but perverted. They lack moral restrains, which makes them dangerous, not crazy. They’re people who live without deep feelings, but this doesn’t make anybody insane but disgusting and dangerous in the case of psychopaths because of their extreme cold mind and their ability to distort reality and pervert others.
They’re a variety of human being, one who manages without feelings. They’re an extreme of nature, prone since the beginning. But being realistic they’re very obvious after some months while other not psychopathic people can share their most wicked traits without having properly the disorder, and those are dangerous too.

Psychopaths provoke a great shock because they’re obviously (when looked closely and without lying to onself) faulty. But they are regretably not the only inmoral predators that exist.

Ox, thanks for this article that reminds again that point i find so important: that, whether with or without psychopath involved, all of us should learn to validate ourselves because our validation is the main validation we need, the most important because it’s the validation that really makes us stronger againt psychopaths and by-products.

lesson learned

My third:
“I don’t think this post was particularly helpful and I’m actually finding it difficult to relate to people who find something beautiful and peaceful in reconciling themselves to the fact that they’ve been screwed their life has been ruined, and it will probably never get better.”

That’s an interesting observation but if you will, an inaccurate one from my perspective. I think the essence here is on a level of sharing in how to find peace when one’s life has been dismantled, to make meaning of complete destruction. that is not a new level of victimization, but a level of new found freedoms and acceptance of what was a very traumatic experience for everyone here and the reality of the world around us.

Thanks for your post.



Very true LL,
Also, this specific post refers to the slandering aspect of spath assaults. So I agree that it is important to share the information with people who will listen, such as Donna has done on this site and how others have written books. But it is also important that we do not WALLOW in the injury. That is what the spath does.

I always used to tell my spath, “you know for as bad as things get, you sure know how to make it worse. Why do you insist on WALLOWING in your misery? You make it worse.”

But that is exactly what he did and expected me to wallow with him. No go, I refused.

So third, what is beautiful is that life does get better – but not in the way we had expected. When we let go of the lies, it gets better.

lesson learned


Beautiful post.

And a very good point. Spaths do wallow in it. They want us to wallow too and when we don’t play anymore, believing lies and the facade, they merely find someone else to wallow with them.

It does take time to get over such lethality. I think some longer than others, but eventually I believe we all do and see life in a much more profound and deep way.




Who knows what’s the best way of overcoming an emotional trauma. Because hiding the trauma, not listening to it, is it going to dessapear? I don’t think so because it is still going to be there but just censured, repressed and later appearing as attacks of pain, fobias, anxiety. No, i don’t think to ignore our feelings is healthy.

And really i don’t see what lie or strange thing has Ox said. Isn’t true we can’t force people to believe what they don’t see or don’t want to see? Isn’t it true that for us it should be more important our own opinion of ourselves than the opinion of those who find the psychopath is a very nice, harmless creature that has done nothing bad to us? Isn’t true that life is what it is, unfair sometimes, and not what it should be?

raggedy ann

I think there are situations in which encouragement to take steps to defend your good name is the most appropriate.

But I think Ox Drover is addressing the situations in which people discover that their efforts have failed. It is a real situation people have sometimes found themselves in, and the only thing one can really do, is hang on to one’s self. And stop setting one’s self up for wounds and disappointment repeatedly.

I am interested in this question because my mother spent years mentally ill with, among other problems, a serious paranoid disorder (and concrete delusions). This, and a sister’s years, long past, as an anorexic, created in me a very strong instinct to take seriously other people’s feedback and perspective or even criticisms. I am not so great at listening to those, but I know not to venture too far that I might be straying into the area of real delusions of persecution or “martyrdom”. The problem is that I have also had experiences (in my case not the campaign of a spath, but still some awful experiences) in which I eventually learned that sometimes people will listen not to reason but to a mob, or their own emotional investment, or the cliches of their own brainwashing, or some person of status or “authority” greater than yours — and you SHOULD speak to defend yourself, but if it doesn’t work after a certain amount of effort, you have no choice but to let go, or back off, or put a bit of distance between yourself and the people in question, or at least between your sense of self and your sense that these haters’ notions of you matter. You still have your knowledge of yourself.

And those things CAN matter, when it’s related to your employment or your family or there are specific things at stake. But in the situations in which the problem is too far gone to be fixed except for by some happy accident some day in the future, it can be helpful for someone to make a decision to live with these things as they are, but try to keep them far from you physicaly or emotionally or in some other abstract way.

I hope i have not repeated myself too much here.

btw, to the person who wrecked the TVs. I AM a vengeful person. It is part of many if not most people’s human nature. It’s OK to have those sorts of feelings, but it is best for anyone having them to manage them. As you know, acting on such feelings had repercussions for you. It was somewhat appropriate for that guy to get himself a restraining order, because he might have been worried about further activity on your end. It doesn’t mean that he did not deserve some karma of some kind, since he was a dihonest reptile to you — and what you did does not mean you are a P as far as I know. And Oxy addressed it anyway. I am glad you feel better anyway.

raggedy ann

I just read this:

“That you in your infinite wisdom should decide when someone has hurt enough and has begun to wallow, is outrageous.”

This is very important: Everyone has the right to decide for themselves when they have hurt enough or when a situation is hopeless. There is really not a set point that is a universal benchmark. With enough experience, a person can look on another person’s efforts or activities and see that they are focused on things that are a waste of time, won’t yield fruit, or may even casue new problems for them. There IS such a thing as wallowing or being caught up in vengeance, but yes, one should be careful to not blithely apply that language to some other individual, or all cases.

I’m not sure anyone in this thread actually did that. I hope that’s a helpful clarification or distinction.

raggedy ann

One more thing!

The concept of NO CONTACT stems partly from a recognition that there are situations in which no amount of invested energy or patience or explaining or logic will “fix” how they are toward you — and in some cases you cannot even believe their own repeated claims that they have been fixed. I think there is some connection there to Oxy’s post.

Vigilance or effort at adhering to NC are themselves a form of letting go, acceptance, moving on.

raggedy ann

Your reaction to Oxy’s blog was a little strong, and that started you off on the wrong foot with one or two people, who posted things they maybe should not have (?). You may end up helpful to each other in some later thread…

I hope staying on LF will be of some benefit to you in what you are going through, and that it helps you work things out. If this thread has not resonated with you, probably many other articles still will, and will be more applicable to what you are experiencing at this time. I occasionally disagree with something Oxy says, but I have gleaned much wisdom and insight from her at other times.

lesson learned


Interesting observation. I’ve been trying to figure out who it is as well, but apparently you already are aware….

Mythird, I think a verbal (typed) disagreement is bound to happen here from time to time. Skylar states you have attacked Oxy in the past. Well, I’ve not agreed with her on every level either, but I’m still here. She isn’t the only one on this site that I have found the comfort of friendship and validation. Warming up to her is slower than it has been with others, but even in cyberspace, we aren’t always going to “like” nor “agree” with others. The attacks must have been profound enough that required deletion? But I digress. I’m simply assuming at this point.

If you are hurt, perhaps the best approach is not to attack the site itself, but to share your story so that others can comfort you and perhaps guide you into a more positive approach or outlook.

Or, maybe this site isn’t right for you at all. That could also be an issue. There are many out there that I’m sure you could feel some sort of connection too.

Either way, either we will see you here again or we will not.




Hi everyone:

I am writing tonight because, well, I feel seriously depressed. Ive gone through the emotions in the past two months of NC (due to me not responding to his attempts) and at different times really do feel strong. Tonight is not the night…

A piece of me wants to scream and jump up and down in a tantrum yelling “you’re MEAN” and “dont ‘like’ him…he’s been really mean to me!” That, of course, is MY innerchild tantruming because I believed someone, again, who turned out being “mean” to me.

Im sad. There’s nothing more to it. His sons 12th birthday was Wednesday and I made it through that day very well. I figured my ex would be celebrating his birthday this weekend as thats how birthdays go. They are celebrating his sons birthday…in the city, with his biological mother, that I found for HIM 11 months ago. The biological mother who I contacted for the first time, who I spoke to for the first time on his behalf, the biological mother who deleted ME from her facebook and email after HE left because she ‘thought it would be too hard for us to see each others posts” and who hasn’t tried checking in on ME since then.

I feel SO unbelievably used, useless, dumb, forgotten, unimportant, sick to my stomache, insignificant and mostly sad. I am thinking of them WITHOUT ME, the person who united them, after 36 years of not knowing each other. I am thinking of THEM having a great time with his son, the child IVE known and had in my home for the past 5 birthdays. I am thinking of how I was there almost ONE YEAR ago to the day when he and his biological mother met for the first time…and Im thinking of how IM not even a thought in THEIR minds.

And tonight I am so, so, sad as I am at MY moms house, picking up MY dog he gave to me as a ‘commitment’, because I have to put her in daycare because I was given a ‘gift’ that HE was going to help me with. Im thinking of the money I have to spend on her and how he ‘couldnt’ pay the bills when he lived with me but he’s got money to take a person hes known for one year and seen 5 times to the city, spending the money he didnt have…all this, without me.

I am insignificant…although I have responsibilities I never asked for. Mostly, though, I have a broken heart I never asked for either…and he’s not even concerned.


I was used. I was used by him, again, to help find his mother because I am safe. He contacted me after 5 months of NC for this reason, and this reason alone. HE had determined he was ready to find her…and who better to ‘help’ with that than the one whose been trustworthy, dependable, safe, and a good person. He needed me then…

She used me too though. I feel like I was another ‘tool’ used for HER benefit as well. I was able to bring HER her son she gave up…I mean nothing to her. She’s said how grateful she is for me…she’s not grateful for me. She’s grateful for the purpose that I served her…

And I wonder if I ever cross their minds other than as the fool I was that helped THEM find each other. How did I end up odd man out…again?

lesson learned

(((((((((((((((((((( Babe )))))))))))))))))))))))))))

Good to see you, sweetheart…..

Let me pick some things out of your post that I think are positives that say you are worth more than any spath that’s an asshole that used you the way he did.

1. You’re loving. And you loved his child too. That takes guts. His loss, but his child’s too.
2. You’re loyal
3. You’re compassionate and kind
4. You’re strong
5. You’re a very resourceful and responsible woman. this also goes to how loving you truly are. You still have the dog, even if the dog isn’t representing something that is positive. You’re still taking great care of it. Can you turn this around? It’s YOUR dog…can you make room in your heart in that it’s not symbolic of his manipulations but a wonderful, loving creature that provides you comfort while you grieve?
6. You are hysterical. Your humor is amazing.
7. You’re so hip, if I hung out with you, I’d probably want to climb a mountain or at least get motivated to get my nails and hair done
8. You’re worth more than how he treated you. You know this or you’d still be with him. You were strong enough to see and get out. Take this experience and learn from it, about yourself, then you’ll be primed for a GOOD man!

You couldn’t fix him babe. There was nothing you could have done that would have made that happen. He will be as nasty, horrible and awful to whomever gets caught in his web.

The beautiful blessing here, for you, is that while you were caught in his web, you were able to get out. He never will be able to do that for himself. He is forever trapped in a web of deceit denial and a thirst that will never be quenched in his life…and all of those who are caught will be the walking wounded too…

Now, pull up your big girl panties and know you are awesome!

And that someday, some man is gonna feel like he won the lottery when he finds a new and improved babe after this experience!


Ox Drover

Dear R-Babe,

YOu know, the apple doesn’t always fall very far from the tree…she may be just like him….or he like her…which ever way you want to look at it. In either case, she is going to be another victim for him one way or another. If she is a nice person, he will victimize her if she is a P he will victimize her as well. They will use each other.

What they are is NOT NORMAL, they are not “happy” they are not living the “good life”—-you know what he is, so why are you trying to make it that he is living a good life and you missed out on being with him? BOINK!!!!! STOP IT!!!! “Missing out” on him is the MOST FORTUNATE THING THAT HAS HAPPENED TO YOU…

If the dog is such a trigger or a responsibility that you can’t handle or can’t afford…put an ad in the paper and re-home it. It should be easily enough to do with a pedigreed dog and shouldn’t be so traumatic for a young dog.

R-babe that creep being gone is the best GIFT he ever gave you! That– and the cable he didn’t pay for! LOL (((hugs)))


As I sit here with tears rolling down my face, trying to hold myself together for fear my mom will choke me out if she knew I was crying…again…over HIM (and Im 35 years old and STILL have the fear of god in me of my mother 🙂 ). I just wonder…
WHY dont I mean anything to any of them? WHY does HE get all the attention and it feels like Im ignored?
I feel like I want someone from his family…anyone from his family to hold me, comfort me, sooth me, tell me ‘YES”! I know it wont happen though…
And Im sad…

lesson learned


Think about your Mom choking you lol! I know it’s frustrating. They see what we can’t when we’re grieving….

Babe, I’m dealing with something similiar right now, so the advice that I give you is not something I’m able to take.

Why does justice not happen? I’m not sure on that one. Why do spaths get away with it? Cuz they can. Think about it, when you have no conscience and you feel nothing for others, it would be hard to have guilt/remorse for anything…there is no insight to their behaviors, so what we’re left with is a whole lotta lies about the memories that were in what we thought they felt and the reality that they didn’t and that they can take what they want and move on as if we never existed. This is a hard one for me.

Enough to increase my anxiety and remove hope for recovery.

It is just that painful.

Have you read “The Sociopath Next Door”? I think you should, Babe, if you’ve not read it already….it gives you an idea of what happen, eventually, to those without conscience….would you rather have one or not?

With all the pain that it sometimes is, I’d rather have a conscience.

I loved my spath very much. I’m grieving deeply over his ability to move on, questioning still, everything that happened…I barely function….trying to make sense of nonsense….

But I can FEEL these things while he cannot. The next victim will suffer the same. What hurts so deeply is that he acts and walks forward as if I never existed. We are left to deal with our pain and hug ourselves because they won’t do it.

Hang in there sweetheart. I feel your pain. I wish I could give you a big hug and dry your tears.

This too shall pass, Chica 🙂



I just sorta realized something. This makes sense…
His son had struggled with maintaining good grades and as a ‘reinforcer’, I suggested we tell him ‘should you get your grades up to A’s and B’s again, we are planning a trip to the city and you’re invited too!” Well, his son got his grades up!
In February, his biological mother was planning coming down to stay with us. We were planning our trip to the city too. I asked him if he had money to go to the city with because he had just told me he had no money to pay the bills. He responded with “take him to the city? Wasn’t that YOUR idea? Aren’t YOU gonna pay for it?”
I said “MY idea? Nooooo…that was something WE decided on to help your son get motivated. I didnt say I would take him to the city. That doesnt even sound like something I would do.”
Him…”that’s fine. I already told him YOU were taking him to the city as a reward. Now, you’re backing out. Well, Ill just tell him you arent doing it now.”

One more slap in the face to me…he has money to spend NOW, as Im SURE he isnt letting his mom pay for the room. Sure, if I was willing to pay for US to go, he’d have done it in a heartbeat…

He didnt NEED me to pay for the trip…he WANTED me to. And he used his son as the pawn…a guilt trip.

Now, HE looks like super guy…its like living at home and having the lifestyle he’s USED TO is more important than being an adult…

Ox Drover

Dear R-babe,

YOu are trying to make a psychopath “think” normally—-but they don’t, they can’t…they can’t care about how they disappoint a child, the child is simply a possession…just like the “gift” dog he bought you for YOU to take care of…

YOU CANNOT MAKE WHAT THEY SAY/THINK/DO make “sense” in terms of a normal person.

BREATHE!!!! Take a long deep breath and let the stress flow out with the breath as you breathe it out. ((((hugs)))) It doesn’t make sense….you are right about that! God bless.

lesson learned


This takes time.

This takes TIME, Babe. Let yourself feel sad, grieve….

Ox is right, but I also find myself doing the same which is my undoing…

Until we “Get” that they’re pathological and quit attributing and projecting normal behavior unto a PROFOUNDLY abnormal person (see Sandra Brown), this is where we will stay stuck

I’m stuck too.

But I’m thinking it’s more for me than just applying normal to abnormal.

It’s a way of life and has been for a long time. To think differently is like reprogramming your brain.

It is intensely difficult, but I believe can be done.


lesson learned

Hey everyone.

I just want to apologize if I offended anyone here. I have an opinion and sometimes, I stick with it and don’t consider the thoughts of others, sometimes, I do and get stuck anyway 🙂

I think all of you are special, wonderful people who have contributed so much to my healing. I think I just need more now.

I’m stuck. And I need to get unstuck.

I love you all, very much.



Thank you, Ox Drover, for sharing your considerable wisdom. What you have written about is something which I relate to 100% and, five years on in my “liberation” from the ex-S (as if, when children are involved), I am still struggling to recover from the smear compaign and utter financial devastation.

It’s been a difficult battle to maintain my self-worth and value in the face of utter and absolute hatred (which has naturally caused me to wonder to myself it wasn’t ME who was the problem all along), so from the bottom of my heart, thank you, thank you, thank you. Sometimes I wonder why I fight so hard and just don’t give up altogether. Your words give me just that extra boost to KNOW what I do and who I am is okay and what happened to me and my children is NOT.

You’re an angel, truly!!


are YOU calling me callous?
or are you calling me special?
either one is okay.



Ok, I am a bit callous, but only when a spath is wallowing!!!!!!!!!!
they ALL wallow in DRAMA!!
sorry, I should be more compassionate to the poor spaths.
Really, I am. I feel soo sorry for them, but they are funny too. God laughs at all of us. I thing God laughs at me all the time. He has quite the sense of humor and when we finally see that we aren’t the center of the universe, it gets easier. when I finally saw that God was not going to stop laughing at me, I saw that if I couldn’t beat Him I had to join Him.


To Author:

This has been my problem in healing. I lost credibility cause people listened to him and showed me the “hand” when I speak up for myself

It didn’t stop my healing. I am happy to get out the chainsaw and cut wood. I just wish it would stop snowing so I can get back out there before I lose my nerve.

I am still a bit timid about cutting wood cause I am self-taught! Once I get going with it I love it. I look at it as every piece I cut is free heat.


I don’t know why this popped in my head…

I feel this need to tell this story.

Years ago I joined a quit smoking group. We were all chained to our habit.

One woman’s habit was only 4 cigarettes a day.
She got the most attention. She would come to the weekly meeting to complain that she smoked one cigarette that day.

The rest of us were squirming cause we had to shake smoking a few packs a day. And here she gets all the attention and support cause she slipped and smoked ONE cigarette.

The group leaders looked for the easy fix-it. They ignore the stuff that is complicated.

I forgot what my point was. It seemed like a good point but, by the time I struggled through the wording of the story, I forgot what my point was…



Just objectively coming in here and reading your post, what I get out of it is actually quite cool and that is group process is a great way to see group dynamics- and in your case it sounds like you clearly experienced the loudest most demanding voice in the room got the most attention- Your challenge was to expose that in the group and express yourself, even now watch for attention grabbers and stop tolerating your space being hoovered up by them….you are equal to everyone in the group and…

YOU looked for an easy fix-it. YOU ignored the stuff that is complicated!
never wait for the “group leader” they are actually very human like yourself and prone to miss something that can be seen clearly from a different vantage point….Your point of view is valid, never forget it.


Oxy, great article.

My SP did the whole smear campaign/ character assassination thing on me; inclusive of accusations of adultery, child abandonment, violence etc ..truth was he did all those things. I don’t know if those ‘fair weather friends’ believed him or not, probably just gave them some juicy gossip. I was shunned, ignored etc all based on the SPs lies. He reported me to the police for stealing my own car, very plausible and very manipulative, and very, very dangerous. No contact, then they have nothing!

At the time I was really, really angry, especially matters about ‘our’ children. I tried telling people it was all untrue, but they probably thought I was nuts ..and looking back I don’t think they really cared either way. But it really took over my life for a while, and I felt very alone apart from my immediate family who called him Walter Mitty to his face. My mother once told the SP ‘to be a good liar, you have to have a good memory, and you are a bad liar with no memory or conscience’, my mother (god bless her) saw straight through him.

6 years down the line, true to form the SP is still trying to smear me, and recently at our last court hearing when the SP told a whopper about me I just started laughing. Why the SP from nowhere made up the silliest lie ever I cannot understand? He had already lost his case he owes £60k, but he still had to have a pop at my character. The SP out of blue told the judge that I was not allowed to talk to any staff at my children’s school because I had made a complaint about them and the headmasters had told all staff not to correspond with me. (The SP has had no contact with his children in 5 years has never even been to their schools!).

The judge rolled her eyes, and then proceeded to read out 2 letters and 3 emails sent to the SP about his debts from both schools, and then she explained to him they had also been sent to me (BCCd) and the icing, both schools had also wished me luck …the correspondence to SP/me was dated 2 days and 1 day before the hearing!!

Most ‘normal’ people would be embarrassed about telling such a petty, ridiculous lie which served no purpose, the SP did not turn a hair of his blue rinse, not a flicker of embarrassment. The SP then having been caught out, told the judge ‘the letters/emails are fabricated’! Judge rolled her eyes again, and told SP ‘clearly they are not’. The word ‘to**er’ muttered under my breath, but loud enough for him to hear was out of my mouth before I knew it!!

They are not normal, they will never change, everything is someone else’s fault, etc, I just thank my lucky stars I no longer have to listen to this boring, thick, liar any more. Those fair weather so called friends are long gone, and well you can make new friends, real ones.

Now if I hear someone running down an ex partner/work colleague, I just have to walk away, I just don’t want to know. The damage a smear campaign can do, not just to the individual it is aimed at but in my case also my children, can be immense. The SP gave not a thought about how his lies about me would reflect on his children and they suffered at school as the lies were repeated. A very unpleasant time, I have moved on but I have not forgotten.


after reading BP’s post, it occurred to me that this popped in your head because you were experiencing it all over again. Here.

Spaths want attention and their drama always gets it, no matter how puny their needs are, they must always come first. So we get a troll with a need for attention and it reminded you of the person who smoked 4 cigarettes a day but demanded all the attention.

What’s becoming obvious is that spaths come in different shapes and sizes. We can’t recognize them all with red flags.

I get now, that, that’s why stories were written about vampires, witches and other predators: to re-create the general feeling of unease that normal humans feel when we are around these demons.

Your gut told you something was wrong when a 4-cig-a-day smoker got all the attention and then again when the troll got all the attention. That general feeling of unease was there for you. Your spath-dar is working.

lesson learned


Wasn’t too hard to see. Pity Play and bashing the site. **sigh**


Sure enjoyed the smilies though! LOL!


lesson learned

I’m so enjoying having my granddaughter here, but this has got to be one of the STRANGEST days I’ve had in a long long time!

JUST WEIRD! It’s not a good, comfortable feeling either.

I have this feeling that my ex is doing something…I don’t know why, but I have a sick feeling about it….

I”m gonna go have my puter checked.



Lesson Learned

I keep thinking about how long you said you were with your spath and how much trauma you’ve been through. My heart goes out to you. I wonder if you’re with PTSD? How could you not be, after all you’ve been through?

Amazed at your story.

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