By | June 24, 2010 72 Comments

Murderous partners

I’m going to address a disturbing subject: the motives, the thinking, of men who eliminate—yes, who murder—their partners.

But first a caveat: Females also sometimes eliminate their partners and share, I suspect, similar mindsets and motives with male murderous eliminators. 

And so what I write, here, applies, I suspect, across gender lines.

One other caveat—when I use the term “eliminate,” as you might suspect, I’m excluding killings in self-defense, of passion, and as responses to insufferable abuse.  This will be apparent as the discussion unfolds.

Last, by “eliminate,” I refer to two possible means of disposing of a partner—by one’s own hands, or by outsourcing the job.

So let’s hit the ground running: Why would a man murderously eliminate his partner?  Here’s the short, but surprisingly complete, answer: He’d eliminate her because he perceives that she’s in his way.

That is, he experiences her as an unacceptable obstruction; and he concludes, eventually, that the only solution is to remove, to eliminate, the obstruction (her).

In the mind of the murderous eliminator, the partner to be eliminated is impeding something very important to him; something that feels vital to his selfish interests; something that promises him gratification that he must have; and something to which he feels strongly, compellingly entitled.

These factors of his thinking, in combination, support and groom his eliminationist mindset.

The idea that he should be denied access to what he wants feels wrong, intolerable. Worse, it feels like an injustice. And so he grows to resent, increasingly, the obstructive entity (his partner); and increasingly, he rationalizes the validity of his growing resentment.

The murderous partner believes, in his entitlement, that he is meant to have this “something,” this “experience” that he covets, as if destiny has promised it.

Consequently, whatever or whoever stands in his way assumes antagonistic, hostile properties, further supporting his rationalization that the obstruction (or obstructor!) isn’t just an inconvenient nuisance, but worse, malignantly undermining.

And so he develops a warped, almost paranoid view that the thwarting factor is inimical to the fulfillment of his agenda. This is a view that supports his inwardly germinating position that he is justified, if necessary, to remove the source of the interference.

It follows, then, that for the murderous eliminator, his partner isn’t just an object to him, which, of course, she entirely is; more than that, she is an object that is in the way of his getting something he’s determined to have, and to which, by now, as I’ve suggested, he feels completely, even desperately, entitled.

I repeat: the combination of these attitudes conspires to ripen his receptivity to the budding idea, to the cold-logic necessity, of eliminating his partner, if this is what’s necessary to ensure his access to what he covets and believes deeply is his right to possess.

Consider the archetypal case of the man who eliminates his spouse to end up with his mistress. In this scenario, from the murderous eliminator’s perspective, the spouse impedes, obstructs his access to his mistress.

Because he is desperate to have his mistress, and because his desperation is inextricable from his sense of entitlement, he experiences his spouse’s existence as less than merely a frustrating inconvenience than as a threat to his determination, capacity and right to possess what he feels he must, and deserves to, have (his mistress). 

I’ve used the word threat carefully. Remember, threats must be trouble-shot. Whenever anything, in our minds, reaches a level of threat, we feel justified to act to remove it. This is a normal, and not necessarily sociopathic, reaction.

However the sociopath, in his abject narcissism, will experience limits to, constraints on, the gratification he is pursuing as threats! He will feel outraged, if not enraged, at circumstances that interfere with his pursuit of intensely coveted gratifications.

In his mind, these obstructions are perceived as threatening.

I stress: he will perceive these obstructions not just as the unwelcome, inconvenient life interferences with which most of us, grudgingly, come to terms; rather, from his more paranoid, grandiose perspective, he’ll perceive them as personal threats to his right to feel gratified in the way that he wants to feel gratified.

For the murderous eliminator, nothing must interfere with his plan—in this case, to clear a path to his mistress!

There may be children involved. He may spare the children if he thinks they won’t obstruct his plans. If this is the case, it may be enough to eliminate only their mother, who is in the way, while sparing the youngsters, who may not be.

To be clear, his decision to spare the children is made easier if he perceives that, in so doing, he isn’t jeopardizing his access to his mistress, the paramount consideration.

Conversely, it’s possible that he may deem the children, too, and not just their mother, as irremediable obstacles, in which case they, too, will be perceived as threats.

In this case he may feel the need and, on a twisted level, the right, to eliminate them as well.

This is all morbid stuff, of course, but we know that it happens. But who thinks like this? What kind of individual thinks like this? Most sociopaths don’t murder their spouses, or eliminate their families, to be with a mistress.

At the same time, only a sociopath is capable of conceiving, and executing, such a calculated, callous, coldblooded, selfish, murderous plan.

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Ox Drover

Dear Steve,

Though my psychopathic son is not my “partner” he surely perceived that I am a THREAT to him getting what he is ENTITLED TO and the best way is to ELIMINATE me. Since he is in prison, he chose a “friend” to do the deed, I am sure, promising this guy a share of the proceeds.

The amount of narcissistic thinking, to me, and maybe I am wrong in this assessment, in a particular psychopath makes them more or less lethal. My son I think is particularly narcissistic (at least it is very visible any way) and other psychopaths I have known seem to be able to hide their narcissistic impulses if they are, indeed, as Narcistically HIGH as my son’s.

I’ve known psychopaths who definitely FIT the criteria but I would never think they would be the kind that would murder. Financially plunder, etc. but not murder….but once a psychopath has crossed that boundary between “regular abuse” and “lethal abuse” it seems that they will keep on with using violence and/or murder as a “problem solving mechaninsm.” (whether or not it worked the first time or not)

Entitlement to all the family assets, yep, my son sure has that feeling! CONTROL of everyone and every thing. I am the ONE thing that stood between him and absolute control (if he got out or succeeded in having me murdered) My living one minute longer than my egg donor also keeps him from having any control over family assets, but it would not keep him from wanting to kill me for revenge if nothing else.

Revenge for N-injury is, I think, as much a motive with many Ps who kill, as is removing the victim from between the P and the Ps desire. (like in this case, the mistress).

Ox Drover

EriB & Wini, this is the only thread I can get on now, weird internet connection (or lack of connection) ErinB, Saw where he was served, GREAT!!!! Towanda!!!

Wini, I’ve had several dogs that could “P-detect” and they were always right. I don’t doubt that there is some smell that people give off, the same way any dog can know when a person is afraid of them, because our sweat changes smell, so there may be some detectable smell change in a P similar to that that a dog can pick up but we can’t. Their noses are over a milliion times better than ours. Some breeds more than that.

Funny thing though, my parrot,, which generally doesn’t care for men because he was hand fed as a baby by a woman, just LOVED the TH-P from the first moment! Of course I think at times the bird is a P—arrot! LOL

The dogs I have now love everyone, but the P-uddy cat only likes MEN! She’s really ticked that son D is gone and she doesn’t know where!!!! Yowls all the time wanting into his room! I keep the door shut just to SPITE HER!!!! hee hee hee


Oxy, I know my Neuphy (God bless his soul) was the most mellow dog in the world, but, when it came to the fraidy cat mail man that used to deliver to my home, he used to bark like crazy. Just because he could smell this guy’s fear two blocks away. No matter how many times I introduced him to my dog, allowed him to pet him and show him how friendly Neuphy was … the guy was afraid of his own shadow. I guess Neuphy loved to goof on him.

On the other hand … I think with the Spaths, their brain is working over time … acting calm, cool and collected as an outward appearance, yet, at the same time they are sizing things up … who they can con, what they can steal etc. Maybe it’s the duality of their presence (spirit not being calm) that the animals are picking up.

Ox Drover

Very well may be, Wini, I know that dogs are very sensitive to smells, and I also know that we humans have two different types of sweat glands. One set gives off signals for sex, fear, excitement, etc. and the other just gives off water and salt to cool our bodies when it is hot. The one smells loudly and the other doesn’t smell much at all. So it is possible that the excitement the Psychopaths feel is coming out in their sweat glands and the dogs can smell this and show aggression toward it (or some dogs at least).

I know that if I am very afraid or stressed I can “Smell” myself as the musky odor is quite apparent even to myself. Some people are more prone to the musky smell than others, but everyone has some of both types of sweat glands.

I’ve talked with people who train rescue and cadaver dogs and there are some interesting things about the dogs and how they seek and find. Differences between dogs who sniff the air and search for ANY human in a given area, and dogs who sniff the trail and search for a SPECIFIC human in a sea of humans. The long ears of the blood hound even have a function to stir the air of the scent trail to better enable the dog to find the trail. They are using a lot of border collies now for search and rescue (they are air sniffers) and cadaver dogs. I met a lady whose collie found a man drown in Ark river under 15 ft. of water. I’d say that’s pretty good sniffing.


Excellent post. As usual you exactly pinpoint the thought process of these guys. That same thought process applies to things other than murder, of course. Always the entitlement.

I don’t know if this is a topic you are interested in or someone else might be willing to write about it….but what is “intensity” in a relationship and how does it hook us?



I enjoy your articles, explaining to the reader how a spath thinks, operates in the world. Being married to a spath (we’re separated) has given me a crash course into what this disorder is all about, having experienced enough disturbing behaviors to drive me nuts. Since my h-spath gets sick at the sight of blood, throw-up, etc. (bodily fluids), I think I’ll be okay – he wouldn’t want to eliminate me, preferring not to see any of that nasty stuff. What a relief for me.

Ox Drover

Dear Bluejay,

Don’t forget about other methods of elimination—hiring someone else to do it or poison (no messy blood spatter!)

Dear Neveragain, when you say “intensity” are you meaning how quickly the relationship becomes INTENSE? It seems to me that the “love bomb” which is the QUICK route to hooking us where they tell us how wonderful we are, how perfect, ya da, ya da, which is a manipulation done by many cults and pseudo-religious groups. AT FIRST everything is all your dreams come true—until you are hooked, then things start to be different. There are several threads and articles here on Love Bombing that might interest you.



Oh yeh, I didn’t think about those options, a hitman and/or eliminating me through poisoning. In all seriousness, I have thought about this topic (having read another article where a writer posted that she thought that all spaths were capable of murder), so that post set me thinking. I personally don’t think that it will happen. Knowledge about this disorder is power! The information that I have gathered from this web site has been helpful in knowing how to deal with the h-spath (for which I am greatful). I don’t go out of my way to “push his buttons”, being aware that anything could happen (you really can’t fully predict their actions). I would rather be safe then sorry, trying to remain alert to anything that could be “off” in our world. When you are able to “figure out” (to the best of your ability) your particular spath, then you have a better idea of how to maneuver in life.

Always so succinct insights and analysis, Dr. Steve. Thank you.

Ox Drover

I can’t remember the name of the article (CRS!) but there is a thread on here somewhere about the psychopath actually being SIMPLE rather than complex. I think this article goes along with that train of thought. It really IS pretty simple when you think about the REASONS they would consider killing someone, and along with the ARROGANCE of thinking they have the PERFECT PLAN and no one can catch them, it makes it fairly simple for them to decide to off someone who is in their way in one way or another. Whether it is to gain “freedom” from a marriage they want out of without having to split the property or for purposes of revenge or monetary gain. The psychopath’s feelings of ENTITLEMENT make it all the easier to consider murder I think. But I also think that in many cases they view it as JUSTIFIABLE HOMICIDE rather than “murder.” (as we might see it)


What you wrote Steve, gave me chills…..this has been on my mind the past few months.

From his latest actions (and suspected actions) attacking my support/friends via annonymous reports to various Federal agencies and having us stalked…..and my actions of reporting EACH AND EVERY odd/threatening or illegal behavior towards me or kids and friends reporting and investigations going on…..he knows i’ll follow through.

My kids want nothing to do with him and he feels this is my ‘fault’ or doing….. he is entitled to respect from them as he is the ‘father’….he has made this clear to everyone.
Kids don’t call police on their own father…..but he forgets healthy fathers don’t physically abuse thier kids either…..or kids mother.
(My kids are NOT young…..mid teens) So they can certainly decide for themselves. they lived the abuse and were exposed, first hand to his many secrets, of which they were expected to hold for him……they didn’t!

I have made my concerns known to my friends and support that he could do something to one or all of my kids to ‘get back at me’……
Or eliminate me thinking he would have free reign with kids.
I don’t think he’d kill us all…..but who really knows until the deed is done and others are sitting back scratching their heads…..

I’ve made it clear to police that I wish to avoid this type of ending and I think he’s quite capable of snapping……and I’m not sure ‘how’ he will snap.

I guess there is nothing I can do other than remain vigilant, keep my cameras recording and be aware of his arrival in my town……and know he is capable of ANYTHING.

AND hope that Holly can be as mean as can be and is a spath eating dog!!!

If I ever disappear from LF……without notice….someone call the cops!


jayzus EB – what YOU wrote gave me chills. be careful.



Do you have any weapons (eg. a gun) on hand in case you need to defend yourself? I know that there are several posters who are “armed-and-dangerous,” ready to use their weapons when the time is right. I personally don’t have any weapons (except maybe some household items that could become weapons), having a home security system for now. Boy, with these creatures, people do need to be on high alert at all times, not letting your guard down. Now, I am thinking about the possibility of getting some type of weapon, trying to figure out if it would be necessary in my situation. I’ll sit on the thought for a while and then the answer will come, I expect. Take care, I have to get ready for work.


I do not have a gun. I’ve wavered over the gun thing and i’ve come to the conclusion that it’s probably best I don’t own one.
He also would think it would be great to do suicide by EB.

Remain the ‘victim’ through death.

He, also was never a gun person……but who knows what he’s done in the past few years.
I think if he had a gun, he would have been traveling with it when he was busted…..and i’m damn sure it wouldn’t be registered, because this would require dealing with ‘authorities’.
Since he moves abour every three months……and is on airplanes etc…again….don’t think he’d travel with a gun….and go through the ‘procedures’.

He did have a ‘friend’ stalking us in May… that ‘upped’ the ante on ‘what he’d do’…..that was a new one.

This stalker threw some of his belongings out the car at the kids…….one bag containing baseball bats. My firsst instinct was to dispose of them……instead…..I placed them at all entrances of my home and in my bedroom. (I got a bit batty!) 🙂
I’ve got the bear spray everywhere, the ovencleaner and wasp spray.
I’ve got a locking gas cap, I always check my tires when I’m out parking in ‘public’ places and I keep abreast of his ‘location’.
He always hung out with stupid people like himself……and I’m sure they all discount me….(because remember, I’m mentally ill!) He discounts all women…..which is just fine with me……

If he comes after us…..he better be prepared for a fight from hell…..I think my adrenalin would be superhuman.

I remember one time, years ago…..we had to move a hideabed out of my rental unit……he dropped it on me as he hung it over the balcony rail from 2nd story.
He had me go below…..(WHAT was I thinking?)… soon as I was trying to get positioned, under it…..He drops it……
I was able to ‘throw’ it uphill rather than be accordianized by it. When I fell backwards, and I gathered myself back up…..I looked at where the couch landed and was shocked at my own strength…..
It was the fight or flight and my power that came from that….. WHEW!

Anyways…..It in the back of my mind….elimination is entirely possible…..BUT……I will not let this paralyze me with fear…..just means I must keep my ‘legal’ presence present and remain aware!!!!

One: I haven’t made it out this far by laying down for him… you KNOW….i’d put up a doozy of a fight.


EB – i know you would girl, i know you would.


Check out this sociopaths picture….
He’s a lwop convicted murderer…..who was just denied his appeal.

He is Darrin Mack….dude stabbed his STB ex wife and snipered the family court Judge. (judge survived).
It’s always someone elses fault. ALWAYS!!!
It was his ex’s fault he stabbed and murdered her (with their chhild inside the home)… was the judges fault he sat in waiting after killing ex wife in the parking garage of the courthouse with a sniper rifle aiming into judges chambers…..
NOW it’s his attorneeys fault he plead guilty….he didn’t quite undertand his rights……
Uh….yeah…..dude ROT!!!

Check out this photo……shows 100% of his remorse!


Erin, Darrin Mack has a friend who came to his defense. Saying Darrin was forced to act out due to all the stress he endured because of the financial arrangement agreed upon during their divorce. The friend stated he could understand how the man snapped. The interviewer said, what do you mean you can understand how he could snap? His wife is dead? Do you mean he had the right to kill his wife? At this point the friend choked up while backing the deadly deeds of his buddy.

It takes all kinds. Now the buddy’s of deadbeats are agreeing they should all be allowed to be deadbeats. Good grief, do any of them GROW UP and take responsibility in life.

Forget this question. I’m asking too much for the tin cans sucking up oxygen in our world.


Yes….this ‘friend’ also spent time in Jail on DV ‘issues’…..

He’s the only person who’s outwardly supported Mack….


A mind-numbimg article , Steve. To even think how one of our spouses, partners etc could have such thoughts in their heads.

I do remember my N would talk about how he would get rid of his first wife’s new husband if he ever got out of line. I tossed it up to him being on edge because there was a new man around his son and young daughter. He knew he would bide his time – many years later – so he would never be suspected.

I don’t think he would physically eliminate me – but he has certainly done so emotionally , psychologically tries to break me and of course financially – devastation may be the correct word.

So yes- somehow they feel the need to destroy.

I can tell you his accountant is up on murder for hire charges – he was unhappy with his parenting arrangement so he hired a couple street guys to run his own lawyer over !!!!!!


Hi Newlife:
Yes, birds of a feather………..

Keep your head up girl…..

Ox Drover

The thing is also that if we express any CONCEPT that the psychopaths MIGHT KILL US, or even that they HAVE TRIED AND FAILED, so many people will TRIVALIZE OUR FEARS or Outright call us “nut cases.” I think that was what put me over the Edge the day I ran into the egg donor in Wally World because she TRIVALIZED what had happened “I don’t believe any of that” UGH!!!! The “minister of the Gospel” who I thought might talk to my egg donor, same thing “I don’t see any threat to your life”—UGH!!!!! But I should’a known with him, the guy is a self-righteout narcissist to start with, so BOINK ME for getting any hope up on his part! I’m suprised that the guy isn’t passing out Kool-Aid for communion at his church! (Oh, Oxy, that was a TACKY thing to say! hee hee)

But yes, it is frustrating to me that people can’t see that “just cause you are paranoid doesn’t mean someone isn’t out to get you.”

Yes, I am armed, but I CAUTION others who have not got a history with gun use and safety to think THREE TIMES before you get one. You can’t be looking down the sights of one at your would be killer and AT THAT TIME try to make up your mind whether or not you can pull the trigger. You have got to KNOW IN ADVANCE before you get the gun what you will do if you are ever in that situation. YOU CANNOT HESITATE ONE SECOND.

I know it is difficult to believe that YOUR psychopath, husband, x husband, wife, sibling, child, etc. is CAPABLE of murder. I know when I found out that P-son had actually killed that girl in cold blood, I was shocked. I think in a way I am really just now coming to grips totally with the AWFULNESS of what he did.

I can identify with my perception of what Joran’s mother might be going through with her son. I also can identify withh the frustration of Natalie’s mother and the parents of the girl from Peru. HOW MANY LIVES WASTED because of a stone cold killer? How many lives did my son destroy or alter forever?

Though sometimes I may sound like the little boy crying WOLF!!! I KNOW FOR A FACT there IS a wolf out there! He is not going to go away. He is not going to quit hunting and lie by the fire licking his grandmother’s hand, and he is RABID! It is frustrating!


Hey EB :

Yes – birds of a feather certainly comes to mind . His business books are as fake as can be as pointed out somewhat by forensics and he doesn’t even flinch at the mention of it.

Me – I still don’t need to bury him financially just to get back at him – just want what’s fair.

N on the other hand – greedy , liar, selfish bastard.

Anything he takes from me he takes from his kids too.



Insightful and STONE COLD sobering.
Thanks once more.


The thing is……
Death doesn’t happen to people over and over and over ….like abuse. It’s a one time deal…..and only THEN does it wake people up.

Society turns a blind eye to abuse…..and even the word abuse.
So to say to someone….I think he will kill…..until they do…’s ‘invalid’ to them.

Death is final! Period!

Most people don’t associate with murderers (willingly) and murder is something so ‘out there’ that it’s just too hard to wrap our head around.
I think the ‘cry’s are always heard through filters…..paranoia.

When your the target… does us no good to ‘wait around’ to ‘see’ what comes of this fear.



You and Oxy both have my sympathy, being aware of your experiences via LF. Never would I trivialize anyone’s fears, knowing what I know now. You two have been to hell and back. See ya, I’m going to go turn the sprinkler on for the kids.


What infuriates me is that socios are so skillful at posing as the VICTIM, that it makes it even more difficult for the REAL VICTIMS to come forward, and for their accounts to be believed.

I think that’s why people don’t take other people’s legitimate fears seriously.
Sociopaths are pathological liars, so it’s very difficult for an outside observer to differentiate fact from fiction.
Close friends and family are even bamboozled sometimes.

And, like Erin Brock says, “Death is final!”
So, if you are waiting to see some actual evidence that someone might be a murderer, it’s probably going to be too late.

If your GUT is telling you that someone is capable of killing (or having thoughts of killing), they probably are.
So, take the necessary precautions for yourself.


Girl….we’ve ALL been to hell and back!!!!

And you know what……we WILL survive!!!!

Ox Drover

Yes, that is the thing DEATH IS SO FINAL! And if I am wrong and he doesn’t try to kill me, I have just taken precautions, but IF I AM RIGHT and he DOES KILL ME, there is a BIG penalty for you being wrong that “he’s not reallyy gonna kill you”—BUT I AM THE ONE WHO PAYS THE PENALTY.

BlueJay, ErinB and I are not “more victimized” than anyone else on here, just maybe a BIT DIFFERENT but believe me TOTAL PAIN is TOTAL….and everyone who is a victim of a psychopath has known TOTAL PAIN!

Yes, the DISORDERED PERSON POSING AS A VICTIM gives REAL victims a “bad name” sort of like “99% of lawyers give the other 1% a bad name.” (Sorry Matt, I couldn’t help it!) LOL

Last year I took in a “homeless” woman who was posing as a victim. She was living in a tiny motor home. She was bright, articulate and well educated and she was a PSYCHOPATH POSING AS A VICITIM. I gave her a place to park her tiny motor home safely. I didn’t take her to “raise” and I wasn’t responsible for feeding her or paying her expenses. Didn’t cost me anything to let her park here.

But it wasn’t long before she was THE most pitiful person in the entire universe and she needed my “help” for this or that and she would cry and wail because she ahd stuff in storage that she couldn’t pay the storage rent on. Never directly asked me for the money to pay for it, but STRONGLY hinting about it. And on and on and on and on.

Finally I realized that this woman was a USER and that her tales of abuse from multiple psychopaths in the past didn’t add up, and they KEPT CHANGING, and NOTHING WAS EVER HER FAULT, she COULD NOT HAVE SEEN ANY RED FLAGS because though she would describe how he/she/they abused her over and over somehow she never saw that as a red flag, so HOW COULD SHE, SUCH AN INNOCENT VICTIM, HAVE PROTECTED HERSELF?

This went on until I finally said to myself “WAKE UP OXY!” and I told her as kindly as I could that she had NOT utilized the respite I had given her and the safety I had given her to find a job, or to benefit herself in any way or to approach self determination by providing for herself.

Immediately she morphed into a person who accused me of abusing her trust and misusing her and not helping her. I was just another of the horrible abusers who had used her like a diaper, OH WOE IS HER! Besides, she probably had cancer and I wouldn’t take her to a doctor and she had a tooth ache and I woujldn’t help her get to a dentist. (I had offered to get her into both a free clinic and a free dental clinic as soon as she had arrived which she had decllined.)

I was fortunate with this woman, she didn’t take me for anything and I kept my CLINICAL DISTANCE from her emotionally, and it was a good thing. I didn’t try to FIX this woman, I gave her some opportunities, which she chose to NOT TAKE ADVANTAGE of. When I saw she was NOT going to take advantage of these opportunities I suggested she move on down the road. I did NOT get emotionally involved with her, and I did not let her projections about me abusing her sink in at all. I actually stood there while she was flinging these accusations at me, probably feeling like some psychopaths do, it was NOT REACHING MY HEART. I KNEW BETTER. I did not start to SELF DOUBT or give creedence to the lies she was telling. I am QUITE PROUD of myself on this score. I am able to validate my own judgments of others by how they behave without getting emotionally attached to every one of them.

I LEARNED A GREAT DEAL about setting boundaries both physical, financial and emotional with people AND THAT IS A GREAT LEARNING EXPERIENCE for me.

I no longer need EXTERNAL validation of my feelings, my thinking or my actions that are involved with SELF PRESERVATION. Since it is MY life on the line, I take responsibility for protecting it and I don’t feel foolish in doing so. I won’t let anyone else’s opinions trivalize my decisions.

We all laughed at ErinB and teased her about digging in her yard to find out what her x buried there, but she KNEW we were teasing her, and they tease me about being a pistol packing old biddy but I know that it is teasing and I am perfectly content to let them carry on and have a good laugh. That’s what FRIENDS DO, but I also know that when the rubber meets the road, they know we all have to do what we have to do to protect ourselves and (if applicable) our kids. Those are the things WE are responsible for. That is all we are responsible for. So if my son manages to get me killed, it won’t be because I didn’t try to protect myself because someone else told me I was “crazy” for thinking my darling son was gonna try to kill me! LOL


Oxy: A email/phone therapist I had, who is no longer in practice it seems, sent me an email a long time ago, that said what attracted me was the “intensity” of the relationship. I think she meant the strong feelings, the ups and downs. It is a word that Sandra Brown uses a lot and I was asking because I’m not sure what therapists mean. I’m just guessing it is the drama. And I’m guessing that it hooks us more easily if we are sort of bored…

Ox Drover

Dear Never,

I think you are right, the INTENSENESS of the encounter is EXCITING for us. When they are doing the LOVE BOMBING of us it is very exciting, we feel so special, so wonderful, so sexy, and they are mirroring back to us the very things we would like to think about ourselves—it is like winning the Miss America contest and the LOTTO all at once! It is everything we could dream up, we are CINDERELLA!

Problem is, the same thing happens to us that happened to her, at midnight, just when we are hooked, our coach turns in to a pumpkin, but ALSO our prince turns into a PSYCHOPATH! LOL He sure “ain’t no knight on a while horse!”

Used Brauer

What is the difference in the mindset of a sociopath who actually murders and one who pushes a wife over the edge to suicide?

My ex’s first wife committed suicide. On that day, he went to her job and said terrible things to her, humiliated her. She left at lunch and never returned. He did the exact same thing to me except he phoned me at work to humiliate me. He was careful to remove himself from the home the day before. It was almost like he thought things through the second time while hoping for the same result.

Since the life of a SP is basically a script that they keep repeating, I know what #1 wife (and now #3) experienced with him. We were just place cards in his life.

I really feel that I was very close to dying when I rewind my time with him. Now that I know what a SP is, I keep wondering, what stopped him from actually commiting murder?


My ex was hoping for murder by suicide. He is clever enough to maintain the veneer of social respectability. That is part of his game. So it would have been highly unlikely for him to commit murder and risk all that goes with it. But to be able to say that his wife committed suicide…What a bonanza for him! He could be the poor, suffering widower. I’m not sure which he likes better – tormenting others or playing the victim card and getting sympathy for himself. This would have been a double win for him.

At the end of our marriage, he was constantly telling me that I was depressed, that I needed therapy, and that I was on the verge of killing myself. I certainly was in emotional distress. Any normal person would have been if they were living with his emotional abuse. Only another sociopath who was missing normal human emotions could have been unaffected by him. But I was NOT depressed in the sense of clinical depression. I was distressed in the sense of someone who was grieving a serious loss, like a death. My ex was hoping that by constantly telling me I was suicidal, that the suggestion might push me over the edge.

Now that time has passed and I have some perspective on it, I realize that I was grieving the death of my marriage, the death of the family life that I though I had. The man that I thought I was married to did not exist. I realized that he had never loved me, that he was, in fact, sadistic and manipulative, that he got his pleasure out of hurting other people and that I was his prime target.

He inadvertently admitted exactly what he was thinking in legal documents during the divorce proceedings. In trying to portray himself as the long-suffering, caring husband of a crazy wife, he claimed that he was concerned for my mental health and so he removed all the razor blades from the house! When I read that, I almost laughed out loud! If I *were* contemplating suicide, razor blades would not even have made it onto the list of options! And did he really think that I was so stupid that if I wanted to kill myself that removing razor blades from the house would stop me??? The other reason it made me laugh was that he was mildly obsessed with razor blades. So I think the whole thing was his fantasy and/or projection of his mental state.


Used Brauer, your Ex doesn’t sound like a sociopath, he sounds like a full fledge psychopath. Stay away from him. Absolutely, positively NO CONTACT with that guy for the rest of your life.

You are the lucky one if you don’t realize this fact. You survived with your life. How do you know she committed suicide? She’s not alive to tell anyone her side of the story. The only side heard is his.

I suspect a childhood neighbor killed his wife in the bathtub … aka called it a drowning. I seriously doubt that woman drowned by accident because this guy could feel a breeze blowing past his face. I sat on a board with a good friend of hers. She is no longer with us either.


Ox Drover

“death by suicide” can also be “murder made to look like suicide” My P son and the Trojan Horse P had determined to off me and make it me committing suicide by blowing my brains out with a gun in all my dispair. The trojan horse and my other son’s wife inte4nded to off my son and make it lookk like “self defense” so yes, Ps come up with these plans and even execute them rather than just blaze away in murder. Some how they seem to think they can LIE THEIR WAY OUT OF ANY SITUATION. NO MATTER WHAT THE EVIDENCE says.

Typical Ps, but I think the majority are capable of killing if the situation is right.


Used Brauer says:
What is the difference in the mindset of a sociopath who actually murders and one who pushes a wife over the edge to suicide?

I’m thinking its how much effort they choose to put into the death and their ‘innocence’. I also think self restraint may have something to do with it…. they plot and wait….and erode the partner to the point of taking their ‘own’ lives.
The ones who murder….tend to ‘snap’….the buildup of anger and loss of control…..
The spaths who set up a murder by suicide situation….can gleem the sorrow from those around them….Oh, i’m so sorry susy commited Suicide….can I fix you a meal…do you need to talk, I wish I would have known ….. People are caught up in the shock of the suicide, they don’t look any deeper…..the spath gets….attention, attention, attention….meanwhile…any/all negativity or thoughts about them being bad are washed away with the partners suicide….and they can continue to portray the dead person as the ‘crazy one’…..but in a nice/caring way……again….attention, attention, attention….
Others thoughts are confrimed…..the partner commited suicide….they must have been anguished and mentally ill. NOT TORTURED AND DRIVEN TO THIS as there was no way out.
It’s the attention they get from it….so maybe they have more self ‘control’ to not snap and draw negative attention from authorities….and set up the ploy of harrasing the partner so much that death is the end result.
One way takes time… way doesn’t.

For the victim….the end result is the same….FINAL!


nottakingitanymore, we have almost identical stories. So sad to know it’s happened to others. It’s incredibly traumatizing and very hard for people “outside” to understand.

Does anyone have experience with the justice system in regards to an attempt to push a wife to suicide? If a sociopath acts upon a premeditated plan to erode their partner to the point of taking their own lives and then intentionally creates increasing levels of stress to push her over the edge, could this be tried as “attempted murder”? And if so, what documentation would be required?


I think this would be a VERY HARD thing to prove….
Anytime you deal with court appointed mental health experts….it clouds issues left and right….
If ‘she’ had ANY prior issues ….drugs/depression/PTSD/alcohol issues….whatever…..OR anything that could be perceived as an ‘issue’ ANYTIME in her lifetime, it’d be thrown right up in her face. It would be used by defense to the HILT!
I would think, to prove this sort of thing, it woud be easier if the victim actually died. (UGH!) And there was documented abuse or letters written by the deceased herself and police reports and professional mental health notes as documentation.
The definition of the ‘act’ itself defines culpability.

If someone takes her own life….(unfortuntately….SHE chooses the end result).
Even if she was driven…..SHE Committed the act.

That’s my non legal take.

Great question……..



I agree with Ms Brock — great question.

Here’s my take on it, as someone who used to be a criminal defense attorney — I think it would be an almost impossible case to make. The legal standard for conviction is “beyond a reasonable doubt.” You have a suicide which is diagnosed as a suicide by the coroner, then how do you prove it? A US Supreme Court case in 2008 basically said that the prosecutor cannot use a letter by the deceased saying she/he thinks the spouse is trying to kill them and make it look like suicide. The reason? Because the defendant can’t cross-examine the witness.

At least that’s my take.

And Ms Brock — I’ve been searching for your posting on how you served you S-ex. Sounds like interesting reading…


I have no idea where I posted it…..
Heres my recon mission summerized.

I cross referenced what he posted on FB with a telephone call he made to my home and didn’t speak last year.
That call gave me the address on where to find him. (Internet search, reverse phone lookup and both occupants names)
I also used his latest recreational activity in FL (water related) and the company he has favorited on FB….they do weekly contests which list his name as a participant. (hmmmm BUMMER).
So…..I gave it two shots….if they couldn’t serve him at the home he resided at…..they could show up at the recreational event on certain day of week and present him his copy in front of all his new friends….. 🙂
They found him at the residence….so no need for major embarrasment.

Just got wind he’s on hte move again…..this weekend… I am expecting him here by Tues.

He was calling the courts last week and they didn’t answer or return his crazy message. He wanted to talk to his ‘children’ and write them a letter.
When the clerk did take his call last week…..she told him they wanted nothing to do with him and he inquired HOW DOES SHE KNOW…..clerk responded…..because kids filed their own stalking and harassment order….that’s a good clue!!! 🙂
He had a headsup another order was issued and he could expect service…..I expected this to pose a problem…..
Apparantly it didn’t.

He said….well, that’s how it goes.

So….Tues am is the hearing….stay tuned darlen……




Did I ever tell you you’re my hero?

Maybe I should say “Be our leader.”

Well done. Have you checked your horoscope lately? The stars certainly seem to be in alignment!


Okay….stop it! You know the gig….live and learn! And the learn part has served me well!!! 🙂

(BTW….that’s me and you dancing….if you don’t remember)


In regards to making a case …

As the last few months of the event described was happening to me, I didn’t understand what was going on but thought that I was either: 1) going crazy or 2) my husband was trying to hurt me. Since I was trapped in the situation, my tactic was to start recording conversations between us so that I could have something that would help me figure out what my ‘problem’ was or gain greater insight into the situation.

Unexpectedly, during the time I was recording things, my husband came to feel that he was nearing ‘success’ (had brought me to the brink of suicide) and felt safe bragging to me about his whole plan/what was going to happen. In fact, he thought that doing so would traumatize me so much that it would likely help things along and/or even speed them up.

As a result, I have a few hours of a detailed audio confession describing his tactics for psychologically torturing me over the previous years (allowing him to abuse me without my knowledge and get others to participate in making me think I was crazy) as well as his plan for holding me in isolation and pushing me into suicide (because this was the best way to cover his tracks while eliciting sympathy from people who would then be glad to see him move forward with a mistress – nobody would judge him since his spouse had been crazy, right?). There is no question left unanswered.

Unfortunately, I live in a two party state for recordings. Even though the recordings prove his attempt to take my life, he feels confident that these recordings will never see the light of day and that it’s *me* that has violated his civil rights. In addition, the recordings are likely inadmissible in court. Without them, however, it’s much more difficult to prove such a very convoluted and unconscionable act, although perhaps his recent formal diagnosis as a psychopath is helpful?

It just doesn’t seem like the justice system can help me or the situation at all and might even make my husband more dangerous, but I figure it’s worth asking for your opinions. I know I’m not the only woman this has happened to, but I may be the only one with the documentation to prove it. If this is simply impossible to prove, however, it just goes to show how clever and patient my ex was and solidifies what he told me (on recording) with glee — That “out of the many ways to inflict death on someone, this is the best.” The perfect crime.

Perhaps the most important point for me is that I did not die. I did not choose to take my life. Even when placed in an entirely hopeless situation and forced to endure increasing levels of trauma, I could not be forced into suicide. My will to live was stronger. This helped me keep my head together and to keep trying to find a way to inform others so they could help me. This is what saved my life. In my case, we do not have to rely on a coroner or even my word to establish an “attempted murder by coerced suicide.” In fact, I wouldn’t have even known or believed it without his articulate explanation and actions taken (although now, of course, he says he was ‘confused’ at the time and was ‘off his rocker’ — too bad on the recording he says this is what he could say to convince everyone it was all a big mistake. whoops.)

For the time being, I’m focusing on myself and my healing. Given that I have to live in hiding, it’s going very slowly and there is almost no help for victims of this kind of experience. Months of therapy have gotten me nowhere. While the recordings were what saved my life previously, they now place me directly in harm’s way as he perceives them to be the only irrefutable evidence of his true nature (he feels confident that he can convince everyone/future psychiatrists out of the diagnosis otherwise). As a result, I know I’ll have to deal with the aforementioned event in some manner to protect myself (somehow?), but do not feel strong or safe enough to do so and have no confidence in the justice system.

All I want to do is forget what’s happened and hide from the world, but also know that I’ll be devastated if my silence enables him to harm others (or more likely, gives him the opportunity to finish what he started and finally kill me). Then again, it certainly seems that my death may be the only thing that causes anyone to recognize the pressing urgency of a situation like this or (attempt to) impose some form of accountability on my husband.


One more thing – For more information on this topic, I highly suggest the book, “Erased: Missing Women and Murdered Wives” by Marilee Strong. Her blog posting “Why They Kill” (May 4, 2008) is very relevant:

She describes men that commit these acts as having a very unique ‘dark triad’ profile, which enables them to carry out their nefarious plans fairly successfully. Moreso, she describes the challenges of prosecuting these men since they typically exploit loopholes of the law designed to protect personal privacy to get away with their crimes.

Ox Drover

Dear Comesthedawn,

I’m glad you were suspicioius enough to record these things, and thoughy they may NOT be admissible in court as evidence—and they ALSO might. I think I would gto talk to the prosecuting attorney and let him/her listen anyway. THEY GIVE YOU absolute CLOSURE about WHAT he is and what he had planned. So you don’t have to worry one bit a bout “have I got it worng?” YOU KNOW YOU ARE RIGHT!!!!!!!!

I have letters proving my P son’s attempts at controling our family and family finances and trying to prove I am “crazy” (for a while I was CRAZY but not suicidal!)

Keep on reading here and learning and rfeading some more there are over 700 great articles here Take it systematically and READ EVERY ONE! God bless, glad you landed here instead of at the fooot of a cliff!


Good for you for having the wherewithall to record.
I know the feeling of being told your crazy and starting to question yourself……this leads to recording everything.

I’m also glad your SAFE!!!! #1!

I remember being messed with by my family also…..they all said…..I had said or done things I NEVER would have said or done.
It was like a dribble…..spath started it…..then kids, then family…….
I recoreded everything after that. It was to prove to myself that I never said those things…..and I DIDN”T!!!
I know the crazy making feeling well!
It was also what ‘saved’ me…..What kids did when they came back after being kidnapped…..said that I had said etc….I replayed the tapes for them……they were shocked!!!
I think Oxy was right with the Stockholm Syndrom with the kids.
It proved to me…..NEVER NEVER NEVER discount my gut and ‘what’ I KNOW about myself. NEVER doubt myself!

Is this man your EX or Soon to be EX?
Or are you still married?

Is he facing any current criminal action?

Since it’s on recording…..(legal or not)….I am not sure it would hurt to play it for a DA.

How does he know you have these recordings?

Again, I;m glad your safe and educating yourself about what you lived.
Knowledge= Power.

I decided during my radiation and my kids were gone (kidnapped) and I was very, very, very low…….my health was failing in way I never imagined at 39, could barely walk from my strokes and was facing a possible brain surgery…..then cancer…….I MADE THE DECISION…..

I remember that exact moment very clearly! taking away the ultimate fear……of dying…..death….finality……
there was nothing else that could scare me…..
Fighting a spath during this time was horrid…..but it was what gave me the strength to beat the shit out of him in court…..rise up…..take my life back, protect my kids…..take care of My health…….and do whatever it was that I had to do…..FOR ME!!!
I call it developing my ‘[fuck you’ attitide…..and that has carried me through!
It became all about ME! I wasn’t going to let him kill me…..through suicide, emotional torutre, medical illness from stress or shoot me upside the head…….
FUCK YOU….YOU CAN”T HURT ME….because I am NOT afraid of dying!

That was when my empowerment hit me! Right then…..the pendulum came my way!

I educated myself on Divorcing a spath….the legal side of it…..I educated myself on surviving cancer and the best treatments……and I educated myslef on how to protect my kids from this man… to dig my business, he buried, out of the gutter and KEEP all assets I had worked my life for.
Educating myself and makiing decisions was the key.
Strategizing and learning…..and having NO BOUNDARIES when it came to what I would do to protect myself on ALL levels from the spath.
I continue today…..3 years later……to keep my legal ground with spath…..expose him for what he is……and NOW….his behaviors are showing to the world…..and I am validated.
It takes time…..but the light ALWAYS comes through!

I did it!

I am no different than anyone of us…..we all have it in us……
So…..I can tell with the questions your asking…..and the place you have described…….YOU WILL BE OKAY TOO!!!!!

Don’t let the fear paralyze you……develop YOUR ‘fu$% you’ attitude girl…..and take your life back!!!!!!!

Stick around……I want to know how your doing!



Read this thread with much interest.

I’d like to suggest reading The Edge Effect, a blog by James Knoll, MD. He is a psychiatrist who works with this population.

Here’s one of his posts on analyzing threats from stalkers:

While his topics in this post don’t correspond exactly with the subject of this blog, he gives tremendous insight into the mind, the thought patterns, of the offenders.

Ox Drover

Dear Trophy, thanks for the link, and welcome to LF.


I’M back!
Do you know who this is?



Thank you so much for the encouragement.

You’re absolutely right. I’m incredibly lucky to have confirmation of my “gut instincts” and still be alive. It was the previous disparity between my husband’s image and my intuitive feelings of fear that kept me unsettled and confused. To be honest, though, I still find the truth so bizarre and unbelievably horrible that I struggle accepting it (even though I know it’s right).

It’s much easier to blame myself for not leaving sooner. But even though I increasingly felt like I was in danger in the situation, there was little evidence to support this. Everyone (including our marriage counselor) kept telling me that I was “hypersensitive” or insinuated that I was psychologically unbalanced. They told me that I was ruining the relationship, so I kept working harder and harder while it got worse. I really did start feeling “crazy.”

Even though I now have confirmation of the truth, it has been very traumatizing to see that those who dismissed my concerns are now choosing to hold firmly to those views and rise up to protect my husband, despite now having direct evidence of his ill intent towards me (and even them!). I’ve found Judith Herman’s explanation of this phenomenon the most helpful (“Trauma and Recovery”). Does this ring true for any of you as well?

“It is very tempting to take the side of the perpetrator. All the perpetrator asks is that the bystander do nothing. He appeals to the universal desire to see, hear and speak no evil. The victim, on the contrary, asks the bystander to share the burden of pain. The victim demands action, engagement, and remembering.

In order to escape accountability for his crimes, the perpetrator does everything in his power to promote forgetting. Secrecy and silence are the perpetrator’s first line of defense. If secrecy fails, the perpetrator attacks the credibility of his victim. If he cannot silence her absolutely, he tries to make sure that no one listens. To this end, he marshals an impressive array of arguments, from the most blatant denial to the most sophisticated and elegant rationalization.

After every atrocity one can expect to hear the same predictable apologies: it never happened; the victim lies; the victim exaggerates; the victim brought it upon herself; and in any case it is time to forget the past and move on. The more powerful the perpetrator, the greater is his prerogative to name and define reality, and the more completely his arguments prevail.”

Ox Drover

Fight another day, “Banana?” LOL

Comesthedawn, Welcome to LF and your take on the “disbelief” of the ones around us is SO RIGHT ON. It is called the CRAZY MAKING and GASLIGHTING. I recommend the book “The Gaslight Effect” even if you are aware of what gaslighting is, (I was) it was still VERY informative and helps you to realize there is still a lot of it that went on that you missed. The other one I recommend is “Stalking the Soul” more about gaslighting and emotional abuse and twisting reality. Again, gained a great deal of information on these subjects. I’ve been buying up copies of both of these books and sending to friends. (WHO BTW are very appreciative and informed) One is a 14 year old girl who can’t wait to turn 18 so she can get a RESTRAINING ORDER against her mother!

This child has a P for a father and a BPD for a mother (frequent suicide gestures and histrionics) and a BPD for a step mother. Fortunately she has a paternal grandmother who loves her very much and has essentially raised her.

The thing I am FINALLY coming to grips with is that I no longer give a large wharf rat’s behind what others think about me. There was a time when I felt like i had to DEFEND my reputation, to make sure these deluded people saw and believed the truth. NOW, so what? I can validate MYSELF, them not believing me doesn’t change anything.

Back when it was PC to believe the world was FLAT, and everyone believed it was flat, it DID NOT CHANGE THE SHAPE OF THE WORLD. Others not beliving me does not change the TRUTH.

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