By | November 29, 2010 204 Comments

Sociopaths target our dreams

Lovefraud recently received the following e-mail. In it, I felt like I was reading a rerun of my experience.

I was involved with one of those 1 to 4% sociopaths/scammers you’ve outlined in your website.

I lost everything ”¦ Long story ”¦ you already know it ”¦ he was so charming ”¦ the love of my life ”¦ kind generous, giving, very sexy in and out of bed ”¦

Anyways, it’s been just over 3 yrs (I was only with him 2 + yrs with a 3-month breakup period. Yep I took him back ”¦ Call me a LOSER now and hit the delete button ”¦ Wait, please don’t ”¦) and I’m living in a mobile home park. Not any of the three properties I had on a golf course.  Sold two of them and the third is heading for foreclosure.  Put all the money 250K+ into a condo in Mexico and took loans out on my condo that I had paid off while I was selling new homes from ’95 -’05) the year I met him ”¦ to pay for “our dream””¦ live in Mexico. I had an offer letter to work for the Four Seasons (selling luxury time shares ”¦ the interviews were long and the background check very extensive ”¦ I passed) and that would help pay the mortgage on the 3,000 sq. ft. beachfront condo WE bought ”¦ none of his money till he made some payments ”¦ And my job would hopefully cover his expenses of running his dream job of being a charter captain on a boat that we would lease from the person we bought the condo from ”¦ OMG ”¦ Thanks for listening. ”¦ I need a support group to go to ”¦ but I’d rather just be one-on-one ”¦ and I’ve been to the therapists ”¦ they all (so far) just watch the clock and tell me stuff I already know.

Been extremely depressed ”¦ always suffered depression but was able to work and acquire my homes ”¦ Then, all of his promises and “deals” shot all my $$ and savings out the window ”¦ at a very high speed mind you ”¦

How long does it take to get on with life?

My friends, which are fewer nowadays, say get over it and move on ”¦ But, I considered myself to be somewhat “street smart””¦ And so I continue to beat myself up for the horrific financial things I did and the mess I’m in ”¦ I know I need to accept some of the blame ”¦ but ”¦ he had the plan ”¦ didn’t know his plan ”¦ and went along with the Love sick person inside of me ”¦ finally, my ugh, prince had come ”¦ yada, yada, yada.

At the end (two weeks before our big move to start our new “fabulous” lives together ”¦ I finally confronted him about his 150K in credit card debt. I have no idea ”¦ why I didn’t run his credit before that close to our move ”¦ other than he was always paying for everything, including ALWAYS having to upgrade our flights to first class, etc ”¦ I thought he was just spoiling me ”¦ as he told me time and again ”¦ I deserved to be treated like a lady and he was going to be the one to do that ”¦ and claiming to pay off his cards monthly with his construction job.

By the way, yes he allowed me to run his credit one night when he was having one of his daily 6 Bud Lights. I’d gone to bed early ”¦ he came home beyond plastered, woke me up from a sound sleep and poured beer all over me ”¦ threw me to the ground and threatened to kill me (“Do you want me to kill you now?”)  I responded two-fold. “Why are you wasting a beer?” and “No, I’d like to make it to my 43rd b-day.”

I called the police after he got up from holding me by my neck to the ground of our bedroom floor ”¦ I called a cab, as I’d already sold my sports car (as it wouldn’t have been too practical in Mexico) ”¦ stayed in a motel for 2 weeks ”¦ next day called some movers and moved all my stuff to a storage ”¦ then after two weeks in “hiding” ”¦ because I was afraid he’d go to my girlfriends homes looking for me. I stayed with a girlfriend until the tenants in my condo found a new place to move.

Sorry for rambling on ”¦ to repeat ”¦ it’s been just over 3 yrs ”¦ and I can remember everything like it was yesterday ”¦

How long till I regain my life? I’m sure the answer is in ME ”¦ maybe a lobotomy?  Please advise or let me know that I still have a life that’s worth living.  I’ll be 46 in Feb ”¦ He’ll be turning 60 next yr.

Insidious tactic

This reader described in living color probably the most insidious tactic in the sociopathic arsenal: They target our dreams.

What better way to draw us in than to promise to make our deepest desires come true? How can we resist someone who wants what we want, and seemingly has the capacity to achieve it?

And how do the sociopaths know what we want? They ask us, and we tell them.

It happens early in the relationship, under the guise of “getting to know each other.” It goes something like this:

“So,” the sociopath asks, with pitch-perfect sincerity, “what do you really want in life?”

“I want a family before I get too old,” we reply. (Or, “I want to live on the beach on a tropical island.” Or, “I want to send my kids to a top college.” Or, “I want to retire while I’m still young enough to enjoy it.”)

“That’s what I want,” the sociopath replies, with a touch of feigned surprise. “We have so much in common. We must be meant for each other.”

Painful betrayal

Dreams explain one reason why the betrayal of the sociopath is so painful. Not only have they manipulated us, deceived us and stolen from us, but they used our own most treasured dreams to do it.

We have lost not only our love, money, time, home, and whatever else they have taken. We’ve lost our dreams. And that hurts.

Then, of course, comes the self-criticism. Why did we believe the sociopath? Why did we wait so long to check them out? Why didn’t we listen to people who warned us? Why didn’t we listen to ourselves?

Why? Because we wanted our dreams to come true.

It’s a brilliant tactic on the part of the predators. They use our dreams to hook us, and then because of our dreams, we don’t want to let go.


So how, as this reader asks, do you move on in life? “I’m sure the answer is in me,” she writes.

She is right. A lobotomy is not necessary, but a “pain-ectomy” is. We have real, true, genuine pain because of what the sociopath did. In my opinion, we can’t analyze away the pain, or wish it away. Pain is emotional, and the only way to release it is emotional. We have to allow ourselves to experience it.

The only way out of the pain is through it.

This isn’t pretty. In my case, I spent a lot of time crying. To get out my anger, I imagined the con man’s face in a pillow, and beat it as hard as I could. Because our dreams were damaged, the pain goes deep, and releasing it is a process. We get rid of some, and more rises to take its place.

Eventually, however, we get to the point where we’ve cried all the tears and released all the anger. We get to the point of acceptance. Something awful happened, we had a part in it, but it’s time to move on.

Then we learn something about dreams. Dreams are linked to expectations, and expectations have a down side. Sometimes, if our expectations aren’t met, we feel like we’ve failed. Or, expectations blind us to other opportunities that may come our way. Because the new opportunities do not match our expectations, we don’t even see them.

Maybe we have to give up our original dreams. But that doesn’t mean there will never be dreams again. Perhaps something better, and more fulfilling, will come along, and because we are no longer looking to make a particular dream come true, we’ll see the new opportunity.

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Ox Drover

Great article, Donna, and so spot on! They target our DREAMS, our fantasy world of “if I had a magic wand I would ________” (fill in the blanks with any dream you have) but they also target our DREAM world at night with nightmares of betrayal to the point that sometimes sleep is a journey into hell, and we don’t want to go there.

You are also spot on that we must go THROUGH the pain, we can’t go around it, over it or under it, but must WALK through or crawl through or run through that gauntlet of firey hot pain.

Thanks for another great article. I am so sorry for your correspondent, that she had to experience the loss of what she had worked so hard for, but I also hear the strength in her post, that she like the rest of us will survive and eventually thrive on the other side of the pain!


Another wonderful article. I would like to address the person who wrote the email…

2 years, 2 months since I kicked the ex spath hole out. Still healing, but I recently got help from a home therapy program through my Dept. of Mental Health. I developed severe PTSD from the stalking, slandering, and stealing. I was unable to concentrate anymore, but now I am on my way back to a better life…without any spath holes.

You see…I never knew there were such evil people out there. I wanted to move closer to my folks and an elderly Aunt. My ex spath hole’s ‘dream’ was for me to sell my house so we could rent one of his Mom’s houses near my folks. Mom was going to start him up with a small restaurant. I guess if you’re middle aged and jobless, Mommy takes care of everything (like a 3 year old. More likely, she was hoping she would get money from me AND I could keep his sorry ass away from her home).

Well, I decided not to sell. That is when the mask really slipped. He started drinking and gas lighting me. Took things out of my home when I was out. When he finally accused me of giving him v.d., I threw him out. He had planned it all.

I hated him, I HATED him….still do and always will. He stalked and slandered me. I was terrified. But…2 years 2 months later…I won. Yes, I won! I am a good person, I still have my lovely little house. I have NEW, good friends. I still have PTSD, but it’s much better because I came to Lovefraud to learn, and reached out locally to get help when I was stuck.

Oh, yeah…his Mommy now has a 46-47 year old sociopath living in her home…again!

Ox Drover

Jazzy, thanks for sharing that positive affirmation of “there is hope out there–reach for it” and I am so glad that you weren’t totally sucked in and lost your house. I’m also glad that you were savy enough to reach out and FIND available help! Sometimes the trauma is so bad we can’t even cry out for help, much less find it in such a confusing maze of places to look for it. I’m proud of you, but also proud FOR you! Good Job!


Hi Oxy! I was not going to give up! I’ve always been independent, and intend to stay that way for as long as I can!

Wrote on another thread that I’ve felt invisible here lately. That’s my low self esteem talking. Thanks for the high 5, Oxy!

Reminder…call the 211 Helpline anywhere in the U.S.A. There is help available to you!

My internet is going in and out. Be back later.

Ox Drover

What is the 211 help line? Do you just dial 211 like dialing 911 for emergency?

I’m glad you didn’t give up Jazzy, and no one is “invisible here” on LF, though sometimes if we aren’t answered soon or immediately we may feel like it…sometimes there is just no one on line for a while. (((hugs))))


Hi Oxy! Internet is freezing up, but this is important…

The 211 Helpline is a non profit agency that is available in any county in the U.S. You can either dial…211…or if you have a phone provider that blocks 3 digit calls (like At& T) call information and ask for the toll free number to your local Helpline.

“2-1-1 provides free and confidential information and referral. Call 2-1-1 for help with food, housing, employment, health care, counseling and more.”…from the website.

211 referred me to the Dept. of Mental Health in my area because I needed help with home organization. My elderly Aunt needs transportation because she is legally blind and needs car service in her area, so 211 will help her find a bonded transportation agent.

I didn’t know that this free referral service was out there. I hope this helps someone.

p.s. (((HUGS))) Oxy!

logging out ’til the internet isn’t so glitchy here. Jazzy


Dear Writer,

All I can say is that I am sorry that you experienced such misfortune, heartache – touched the devil and he burned you. I am glad that you escaped from him. As hard as it is, you will prevail. The pain is unbearable at times, but take it a day at a time. Please read here (and post too) and allow others to help you when you really need a support system. Many of us have been through similar situations, knowing that you have walked a hard road. Peace to you.


WOW! Great article! Yes, they do target our dreams. I met my (soon to be) Xpath in West Africa vacationing. I was speaking for a program at the university. He was the MC and a student there at the time…fininshing his 2nd masters degree. He heard my speech and heard me speak about my passion for Africa. That was all it took for him. I then became his target. He knew that my dream and goal in life was to buy a home and move to Africa. We got married, he came to the US. Not only have I not been able to buy a home in Africa (inspite the fact that we had enough money to by several) , but I’ve never stepped foot back on the continient of Africa since he came to the US, which has now been 8 years. I was going once or twice a year prior to marrying him. Now there is a 2nd income in my home and I can’t go once in 8 yrs???? He had no desire to live there…he wants to be an American!!!
My other dream was to start an import/export business providing used clothing to needy children in Africa. He found this out during our “getting to know eachother” stage. I had the name for my business, most of my business plan, etc. Of course I shared this with him… why not?? He’s the man that I plan to spend the rest of my life with. Well, once he abandoned me..he attempted to start his own export business ….doing what?? sending used clothes to africa. And he stared a language center was well…..guess what the name of that center was? The EXACT name that I had planned to use for my business. He could not understand why I was soooo pi$$ed about him “stealing” my ideas. He told me that I didnt have a business and that we didn’t know if I would ever have one. He felt that I should be happy and proud of him for being able to accomplish this and that there are plenty of business with that name. I explained to him , those people were not married to me and didnt learn the meaning of that name from me…. YOU ARE A DREAM THIEF!! Of course him being the spath that he is and having EXTREME NPD doesn’t have a clue why i was bothered or upset about the whole thing. I didn’t know at that time about Spaths or NPD…. now, it’s as clear as day!


great topic. it has connections to so many other things.
My exP and my parents both made me feel “yucky” for having dreams. So I learned to hide them. To this day, I don’t talk about my hopes and wishes. I’m ashamed for having any. That’s what sociopaths do. They do it very sneakily, with a condenscending little pat, or a snort and a giggle. Or just ignoring when you profess that you have something of value to share with the world.
My good sister is married to a narcissist and has 3 grown children. The youngest, is a daughter, J. J told me that she would never tell her parents what she wants because they would just use it against her. Tell her she couldn’t have it until she conformed to their wishes, or else give it to her and then use it as leverage by taking it away until she conformed.
She noticed this at age 16. Took me til I was 44 to see it being done to me.
In J’s case, she refused to get her driver’s license because she knew her parents would use it as a tool against her.
In my case, I just hide what I want from everyone because I can tell they don’t want me to have it. Until recently, I never realized it was due to envy. It’s bizarre that parents can envy their own children.


Forgive me if I come off as condescending, but I don’t understand how anyone can take over another’s dreams. Dreams are a concept you develop and make happen on your own, hence why they are YOUR dreams. How does one let another take that part of themselves from them?


Oh, and to add, I just read Skylar’s comment, I have a narcissist as a mother. I didn’t fit in a role she had for me, so our relationship has been based off of playing nice infront of company with undertones of dire hatred.

I was told sociopaths and narcissists are very common in their characteristics.

Ox Drover

Dear Snowflake, Yep, they are IDENTICAL essentially, but there are levels of them from bad to horrible to extremely horrible to UNBELIEVABLY HORRIBLE. Just a matter of DEGREE of damage.

Glad you are surviving and learning about your “mother” I don’t even term mine “mother” any more as “mother” I think is a term that must be earned, mine is my EGG DONOR but she did not earn the term of respect that “mother” implies…caring and loving.

Yes, Sky, they ENVY anyone who has anything—because they believe all things belong to them without any effort on their part. If it is yours it belongs to them. Their chlidren are not there to nurture and care for but to bring them glory and/or control.


Can some of these cases be narcissists instead of sociopaths? Are these criminals aware of what they are doing? From what I was learning in school (psychology) narcissists have no clue that they are not as grand as they think they are. And as far as sociopathy goes, these people are completely aware, and don’t care. Is sociopathy created, or is it genetic?

Sorry I am asking so many questions. I want to learn as much as I can without having to actually go to a sociopath website. I found a few, but never spoke to any of them.



Dreams are hopes that you have, things that you aspire to achieve. Another person can “help” you accomplish some of these dreams (eg. marriage, family, etc.), but can be stringing you along, using you for their own pursposes, thus, your dream can come crashing down (not be fulfilled).



Okay, I get it now. I was taking it literal. In the sense in which you describe I can see how another could take that and destroy it.

I have a hunch that I know a sociopath, but I am not too sure, because they seem pretty normal, and kind even. I believe I came to the right place, you ladies, even a few men I presume, know enough to keep me safe, I guess you can say. I’m still young, and want to stay on top of things. The person I am speaking of is a BF (best friend).

Ox Drover

Dear Snowflake,

Go onto the archived articles here by SUBJECT and AUTHOR and read about psychopaths and also the science and research behind them. Yes, it is genetic, and yes it is also environmental, most of the answers to your questions about them are already here in the articles, or in the books recommended by the LF store. So there’s no need for me to rehash it all (not blowing you off, just telling you where to go here on this blog for the information you seek)

KNOWLEDGE IS POWER and gaining that knowledge will protect you from being conned by them. You will meet some in your lifetime for sure. Good luck and happy learning!


Thank to all that responded XD!


Great article! They do target our dreams, and that’s how they continue to keep us sucked in, until we start to put the pieces together. My dream, when I met x-spath was to have a solid, healthy relationship that led to marriage. To raise our children together, (my 6, his 2). He played on that “dream”, after the first year and half when there was no forward movement, I told him I was wasting my time with him. He obviously didn’t have the same desire I had to move things to the next level. He assured me he did, he was just waiting to see what happened with his job since his company was closing down offices and letting upper management go. I bought that story, for another year and then repeat the cycle. Never did move to the next level (thank God). However, it was a constant roller coaster ride that kept on going. Of course, put in there all the lies, other women, and manipulation…SPATH!!


To the Writer:

I know all about “street smart”. Hell, I was a criminal defense attorney (now walking the other side of the street, thank you kindly) and thought I had heard it all, seen it all, etc courtesy of my clients. Oh, yeah. And I also thought I knew what a sociopath was.

My S-ex drove me right into the ground. I now understand that I have been dealing with cluster-Bs for my entire life courtesy of a S-father and malignant N mother. So, I was conditioned for the crazy making behavior. I was even conditioned to keeping my dreams to myself, having let my parents destroy so many of mine. What I wasn’t conditioned to was making myself vulnerable because I thought and indeed he professed he loved me. So, he lovebombed me, I went down for the count and after I was hooked, he proceeded to make the next 15 months of my life a living hell. And he used every single one of my dreams, which I confided to him right up front, against me.

And the losses didn’t stop after I finally found the strength to drive him off (November 2008). Several months after that I lost my job and was out of work for 53 weeks. When I would look at my bank statements and credit card statements and see the money I had shelled out on that avaricious piece of sewage it made me physically sick. Oh, yes, and my health collapsed on the heels of the S-ex and losing my job.

For awhile I obsessed about him constantly. Then I finally made a conscious decision to stop obsessing about him. For starters, I wore an elastic band around my wrist. Every time I thought about him I pulled it back and let it go. My wrist was practically bloody, but it was a starting point.

But, I also realized that I could either let him steal my dreams (letting him win) or I could pursue those dreams on my own, because now I really was street smart and knew how to protect myself. So, I went out and made some new friends (he had destroyed so many friendships) and rebuilt the friendships that he hadn’t. I went out and met someone who really does share my dreams (a year and a half and getting better each day). I took my career in a different direction. And the biggie for me — I stopped focusing on what I had lost and started focusing on what I had gained and how I could make my dreams come true.

Easy? Hardest thing I ever had to do. I have consciously cut out of my life (or severely curtailed contact in the case of my parents) all cluster-Bs. I have learned to draw boundaries. I have learned to protect myself. The S-ex seldom, if ever, enters my thoughts anymore. When mutual acquaintances start to discuss him, I politely change the topic. Because not only do I not have any interest in him, I refuse to waste one more minute of my life on him. A reader on this site, I believe it is Hens, calls this place the “nirvana of indifference”.

You can do the same. One of the things I found most helpful is Kathy Hawke’s articles. Especially the one on anger. Man, when I finally let myself get angry I never thought it would end. But, that was when the healing began.


Hi Matt…..
Hmmmmmm….sounds like somebody spent the holiday with the familia!!


Good to see ya Matt!


I really respect your comments about healing Matt.
Funny it just hit me that when the insult was removed, that my family wanted me to apologize and allow that it be judged that I was stupid and reckless for my choice. No one was willing to listen or to accept that I was genuinely surprised and disappointed.

As I went through the learning curve of finding out what hit me and how it happened, it was easy to let go of the insult but it has been far more difficult not to be angry with my family for judging without being there. before, during and after the spath.

As time goes on and I find out more and more of what the backside conversations were, I am more insulted by them than by the animal who did what those animals do.

Its not about forgiving the insult. Its about forgiving the people in my life that it would have been reasonable to count on to have been there when my circumstances made me vulnerable to something like that.

I guess those are the times in life that really count.

I read that people say there is nothing you can do when someone is hooked by a spath and I think that what you can and must do is BE THERE before the Spath.

Over and over I read about how these people hook in when we are vulnerable and it is up to us and the people who love us to make sure that our loved ones and friends aren’t allowed to be so openly vulnerable.

After an episode like this for the ones who should have been there to say, I was too busy is a cop out. If the tables were turned, would that be the answer anyone else would accept?

Your people are your people. Its about taking care of your people. Whoever they are. I make different choices about how I spend my time and attention now too.

I don’t have to label them. I just have to walk away. That is the critical decision. And everything follows from it. I think I echo a common thread of experience in recognizing that much mich more was broken than just the spath, but it took the encounter to shed the light on the whole thing.

Bravo to you. And to all of the brave suvivors. It is good to be among this company if for the best reason of being among people who have experienced, learned and overcome the experience of these disordered and come very far from where they were when it happened.



I can understand your anger with your family.

With respect to my family, I’m in a different place. I long ago gave up hope of getting anything I needed from them. When my parents die I think I’ll feel nothing but relief. In my case I made the conscious decision that although I would never get what I wanted or needed from them, I wanted to feel no guilt when I put them in the ground once and for all. OUr relationship is cordial, but distant. I don’t give them many details about what is going on in my life. Not only don’t they give a damn, but to do so would be giving them ammo to use against me. I find it sad that I had so much love to give them. And then that love for them went away.

I finally got a handle on my relationship with them and what they were after I read two books. The first is “If You Had Controlling Parents” by Dan Neuharth and the second is “The Betrayal Bond” by Patrick Barnes. Those two books helped me to understand exactly what our relationship was all about — and how those relationships primed me for the S-ex.


25 years ago my parents heard the spath tell someone that he was only with me for my money. but they didn’t say a word to me until just last year When I had begun to figure out what my ex whas up to. now they say they want to help me and protect me.HA!
That is just another reason why I am grateful for the evil creature that entered my life. He made me see all the little evil That was already there. And I can see evil all over the world That I wouldn’t have noticed otherwise. Small slithering sneaky covert evil That I used to excuse.

Ox Drover

Dear Matt and silver,

If I may chime in here, you both have such good points on this. I read both of those books, Matt, probably about the same time you did. I also don’t want to have any “regrets” when I put them in the ground (or in my case now, her) but when she canceled my Power of Attorney and called her physician and told him not to give me any information, she took away my ABILITY to take care of her, took away my legal authority, and guess what, she also took away my RESPONSIBILITY TO DO SO….duh! Then when the ones she had given it to BETRAYED HER (ACK!!! “But they were soooooo respectful!”) then she wanted to do a “start over” and have me assume responsibility for her care and well being—nope, doesn’t work like that! You cannot DISCARD and DEVALUE me and then expect me to come running when the ones you preferred over me throw you over.

When she discarded and devalued me, I felt the same way the same betrayal I WOULD have felt if I had come in one day and found my best friend in bed with my husband—and then he left me for her and then she dumped him and he came back and said to me, “Ah, honey, let’s just pretend none of this ever happened and start over!” LOL EXACTLY the way I would have felt if my husband and my BF had betrayed me and discarded me.

When we devalue and discard someone who loves us more than life itself, who would have given their very life’s blood for us, and then WANT TO PRETEND IT DIDN’T HAPPEN—-nah, that does NOT WORK FOR ME as Kathy Hawk would say! But that is what my egg donor has done for her entire life…she has devalued me, denigrated me, emotionally abused me, failed to protect me, and I didn’t see it until I was 60+ years old. HOW BLIND is that! That “trauma bond” or Betrayal bond, as Carnes calls it is so true…it is the Stockholm syndrome. Did you know that one of those women (at least one) waited until those robbers got out of jail 10 yrs later and married him? After being held hostage for only 36 or 48 hours, I can’t remember the exact time. Not much though.

I think that trauma bond, betrayal bond, is why SLAVERY works and has worked for eons—why women in the Middle East don’t rise up and kill every male among them as they sleep. Why Elizabeth Smart denied her idenity when she was found, by Jaycee Dugard stayed there for 19 years with that creep-o.

There are levels of it, and some people who DO escape. There is a group of women in the middle east who set themselves on fire to escape the bondage of “marriage” and “slavery” and abuse they are under in a culture where there is no escape.

I read about a woman in Egypt who is suing her father for not allowing her to marry. She is 42, a physician, but as long as he does not allow her to marry (he is her guardian) HE GETS HER SALARY–she has several sisters he does the same thing to as well. DUH! What kind of “father” would do that to his daughter?

A PSYCHOPATH who sees her as a cash cow, not a human being! Yet the “law” is not enforced that prohibits that even in that country. He gets away with it because he is male.

The emotional abuse, the soul rape, that parents can do to their children even in our culture and still “appear” as “loving parents” and “pillars of the community” is gut wrenching to say the least.

My egg donor appears to be a “sweet, saintly little old lady” and I realized, only too late by decades, that there was nothing wrong with ME, that even as a small child I had intuitively felt she was not protective or loving or caring of me—she hid it very well, even within the family and close associations. I am the one who SAW behind that hideous mask…yet she would not score very high on the PCL-R and I doubt that your parents would either, but that doesn’t mean they did not deeply wound you.

My P sperm donor would score high on the PCL-R early conduct disorder, running away from home at 8 and 10 years old, with 6 or 7 marriages, beating all of them physically, two murders than I KNOW FOR SURE ABOUT, though he claimed more, pathological lying, financial fraud, theft, etc. he would have scored at least a 36 or 38, my P son scores a 38 out of a possible 40 and would score a 40 if he had been out of prison long enough as an adult to have had “many short term marriages or relationships” but he’s only been out of prison less than a year as an adult.

The smear campaign my egg donor and my P sperm donor did to me was different in the way they went about it, and he was not believed by anyone who knew me–or anyone who knew him for that matter—but everything she has said in her “saintly” masked way has been believed….but I got to where I did not care who if anyone believed him, and I’m getting that way where she is concerned. I don’t give a big hairy rat’s behind what the “neighbors” think of me, or of her. I can live my life without her approval now because I realized I can VALIDATE myself as far as my own moral compass is concerned. Plus, I realize she does NOT have my best interest at heart, and never has had.

She was as jealous of me as the brothers of Joseph in the Bible story’s brothers were…she resented the time I spent with HER parents, she resented everything about me, because she was jealous inside her evil heart. It took me a long time to realize that the emotional abuser is just as much a psychopath as the P sperm donor was, and the PCL-R score doesn’t make or unmake a psychopath, it is only ONE INDICATOR of the evil that lies behind the mask.

Silver, I too believed that “my people” my egg donor and my son C should have risen up and defended me from my P-son, but instead they ganged up with him to “persecute” me, to drive me out of my home like the “scape goat” in the Jewish ritual who was loaded with all the sins and guilt of the entire nation and shoved out into the wilderness, defenseless to perish of hunger, thirst and violence. What kind of “parent” could do this to a child? Casey anthony? My egg donor? Your parents, Silver? Yours, Matt?

I finally got it that I owe her nothing because she devalued and discarded me, SHE threw me off defenseless and unloved, uncared for, but by doing so, she broke my trauma bond, she broke the need I had for approval from her, and made me see her for what she really is. I don’t need that presence in my life, and when the time comes that SOMEONE has to put her in the ground, it will NOT be me, and I will feel no obligation to do so. I no longer have a responsibility to her for anything, she negated that obligation and responsiblity when she discarded me.

The Biblical admonition to “honor thy father and mother” is fulfilled to my way of thinking by me becoming the kind of caring and responsible adult that WOULD bring honor to a parent—if I had one. If I had EVER had one. I became what I am not because of her but IN SPITE OF HER. I didn’t deserve the kind of mother she wasn’t and she does not deserve the kind of daughter I have become. I am FREE of the chains of slavery to propaganda that was implanted in my head when I was too young to know the difference, and which I finally saw for the lie that it was.


Great article Donna.

If we didn’t have dreams and the need of a partner to help us attain them (as in a co-worker or boss for a career) or share them with (a lover, family or friends) we wouldn’t be human.

This is the tragedy of it all….that weather we seek the dream of a family, a career, or just friendships, we do relay on other people to be part of that dream. We are allways vulnerable to being exploited and abused for the purpose of anothers agenda while in search of our dream. and when we encounter a N S P….we experiece what hell is!

They know exactly what to do, what to say and how to hook us……the ex-S had me hooked on all fronts, the promise of career, merriage, dance partners, etc…….”into our sunset years”…..I had a successfull career, a good relationship with my family ….I was sucked dry for all I had to give spiritually, emotionally, physically and eventually financially. He had me so crazy, I couldn’t function, concentrate, lost respect of my family, my friends and in the end I lost my job, robbing me of my financial stability. I am still suffering form PTSD as a result…..still depressed, anxiety ridden, and unemployed but learning day by day to move on, forgive myself, never forget, learn all I can about them and me…..I read all the books ……and move on. In my case, learn a new career.

Healing is a slow work in progress… It requires practice and patients … One day at a time……….until we dare to dream again!


Wow Oxy
Just Wow.
the pain that parental disappointment causes…there aren’t words.
Parents are SUPPOSED to love us.
But as it turns out, that was just a sense of entitlement and not real at all. Talk about disintegration crisis. I think 1 of the reasons I haven’t been able to heal is because I haven’t been able to find an explanation that I can integrate with my perception of reality that explains why my parents were the way they were.

Ox Drover

Dear Sky,

The book that Matt talked about “If you had controlling parents” is a great one as well as “The trauma bond” by Patrick Carnes, those two books are ones That I read too, and I think you might be able to get a lot out of both of those books if you have not read them.

The controlling parents indoctornate us from a young age to please them. PArents are “god” to a small child and what they say and how they treat us has a profound impact on our self esteem etc. Good parents, bad parents, no parent is perfect, and some people do the best they can to raise and love their kids and aren’t perfect by any means but the kids with the help of the teachers and communityh and the extended family, etc. feel loved and cared about…other kiids have horrible parents and still come out okay. I’ve seen families with horrible parents who had good kids come out of them…and good parents who had horrible kids. There is a mixture of genetics and environment and each of us has FREE WILL CHOICES and so do the psychopaths.

As adults I don’t think we can “blame” all our problems on our bad parents no matter how bad they were, or that the parents can take credit for all our good no matter how good those parents were. No two people start out “equal” in this life, some people have more smarts, athletic ability, education potential, cultural advantages etc. but each of us have a choice on how we USE what we have.

The story in the bible about the man who gave his servants differnt numbers of “talents” (In that case a unit of money) to invest while he was gone—one guy got 10 talents and one 5 and one 1 talent, and each one handled it in a different way. The guy with 10 talents and 5 talents used it for investments and made a profit, but the guy with 1 talent BURIED his talent and didn’t use it a t all. His EXCUSE was he was AFRAID to use it and the master was mad and said, “well, at least you could have put it at interest and gotten me some interest on it” So the master then took away the one talent he had given them man and gave it to the man with 10 talents.

We need to USE what we have to the best ability we can, not while about not having as much as someone else. OK maybe I’m not 6 ft 5 inches and I can’t throw a foot ball or a basket ball, but I’ve got talents I CAN USE so I need to use those talents to the best of my ability.

Okay, my mommie didn’t breast feed me, so I’m gonna eat worms? NAH! I’m going to do the best I can with what I have! Life isn’t fair, but it never has been and I need to quit expecting it to be or whining because it isn’t fair. My egg donor didn’t nurture me, but I have survived in spite of that, and now I can nurture me. I can take care of myself. I came to that conclusion sort of “late in life” with 3/4 of a normal life span already passed by, but I have TODAY and I can live it however I choose to–happy or miserable, and today I choose to live it happy! To take care of myself, eat right, and learn better ways of taking care of me. Reach out to others if I can and live a satisfying and happy life.

If you haven’t read those two books both Matt and I highly recommend them. My shelf is full of quite a few good books but those are two I would save if the house was on fire!


Sky: you said: ‘That is just another reason why I am grateful for the evil creature that entered my life. He made me see all the little evil That was already there. And I can see evil all over the world That I wouldn’t have noticed otherwise. Small slithering sneaky covert evil That I used to excuse.’

I am not to grateful yet, but I SO hear you. my family don’t know that the spath was a spath – i cut out my sib and father (mother is ill) last year, when I recognized what they were. I was in a bad way, and there was no help or support coming from them. My friends, however, were around for most of the spath stuff. i seemingly didn’t get over it fast enough, and was a right killjoy. Hurts, but i also see that if they don’t have the compassion and wisdom to stick it out – then they are not as good a friends as I thought. I know i will deal with them a bit more over xmas – hmm, i mean, i may talk to them – i haven’t in months. But i wonder, what is my desired outcome? I need to know that before I do.

one of the peeps who does the neurofeedback from me told me this story – about someone who was healing from PTSD, who broke a light bulb in an outburst of anger. a week later he couldn’t figure out why, and 2 weeks later he was laughing about it…. i am meeting with a third friend this week to talk over some things – i sent her an article about PTSD and i will tell her this story – people have to have the knowledge of what they are dealing with to decide if they want to be around. also – if people can’t handle my dark and spath centric humor, well, then they can just buzz off. I NEED to have that outlet.

it’s a two sided job – this trying to have/ maintain relationships. I am just starting to feel like i have a bit of energy for them, and now i have to decide do i want the ones that are about? no, to my family; my sib is very messed up, possibly N, father is definitely N. i am saying no to all the little evils they indulge in, to the little evils that were already in my life.


I worked for a sociopath once. One day over after-work drinks he kept asking me ’what do you want’. It was the oddest question, totally out of context. I guess my spidey sense was tingling because I wouldn’t give him a straight answer which only made him more insistent.

In the end I told him, (as I foolishly thought he was talking about my career) that what I wanted wasn’t about money. Swear to god he looked at me with an expression on his face as though I’d just grown another head. Utterly baffled.

Eventually he fired me under false pretexts and continues to plague my life but that’s a story for another day.

Ox Drover

Dear One_step,

I can hear a lot of progress in your posts since you first came here, the desperation and pain seems to be quieter and the logic and rational part seems to be emerging…with some ups and downs (which is to be expected even in those of us who have been on this path a while) Last year my melt down over son C’s lie, and this year EB’s problem with her son, Junior, but the thing is that I think the further along we get the lesss low the lows are and the shorter time we spend in those lows.

I can remember when a TINY thing would send me into a tail spit that would last days, weeks or even months, and then I went into a tail spiin the time I ran into egg donor in the grocery and it was only about 18 hours that I was in a vomiting tailspin from the encounter. Remember when you ran into your dad in the store and how it sent you for a roller coaster ride!? Same thing I think. Now those things that would have sent you into a tail spin that lasted a longer period are shorter and not so bad.

That is the progress we make, the leveling out of our stress hormones. The seeing more clearly what is going on and doing damage control before it spirals out of bounds too badly.

Your thoughts about your friends and their lack of support is I think very good, friendship IS A TWO WAY STREET, but on the other hand, if these people we thought really loved us, bolt the first time we are in need of their support, then what do we need them for? I want friends who love me more than to say “Okay, get over it now, it’s time you moved on” I want friends who will validate me as a person, validate my feelings.

They may tell me “Yes, I hear you are upset/sad/mad/depressed, but I am here for you—Now, get on with your life, but I WILL be here for you!” I only have a couple of friends like that. The rest just didn’t want to hear about my pain, and I didn’t care about their new cars/dresses/boy friends/jobs, I was just in too much pain to appreciate how great their lives were, and they were having too much fun to notice I was emotionally bleeding to death. Don’t miss’em. Better off without them!

Keep on One-step, you are one-stepping rapidly in the right direction toward healing! TOWANDA for you! To hell with the rest of the faux friends, who needs’em? (((hugs)))


This is such an awesome, supportive group that I want to reach out to see if any of you would be interested in helping to advise a woman who is now breaking out of a nightmare dating experience. I’ve pointed her to this website, but she’s not sure that her ex is a sociopath and doesn’t feel comfortable posting here yet. She’s given me permission to share her story on my blog and she’s desperate to hear from women who can relate to what she’s been through. She was nearly raped by her ex-boyfriend’s best friend and yet her ex didn’t seem to care. Her story is at


Right on, Oxy! I have NO friend s like that in this country, but I have 2 in Scotland who love, understand, and appreciate me, and who I can “spill my guts to if I have to.
Thats why Ive been going to Scotland every 2 years,but I dont think Ill go again.Dont feel I have to any more.
Really only friends on LF understand what life with a spath{and living your life without a spath in it} is like.
I have “sort of” friends here in Oz, but I WOULD NOT spill my guts to them. Im sure they wouldnt understand.
When Ive attempted to tell them about my spath daughters, you can almost hear them thinking,
“But what did she do to them, to make them turn against her?’
So, Ive learned to keep “STUM”.
My husband has “heard it all before” and cant stand eithe r of my daughters, hes been badly burned by them, and has NO wish to see them again.he is grateful to LF for letting him off the hook, as he claims he suffered from “compassion fatigue,” with me endlessly going on about my girls.They are not his kids, so luckily he doesnt have that blood bond with them.And Im grateful that he has no kids!Love to everyone, hang in there, were all doing great.mama Gem.XX


Today is my 46th B-Day! It’s 3AM and I’m sitting here at a motel with the sound of the interstate outside my window. We met in March of 2009. July 2nd I awoke, and she was gone. I picked up 27 years of belongings and dropped it off at the storage unit down the street not even a month later. I am not going to sit here and paint the ugly portrait..her, me…”US”…..the sickness……the pain…. She came back into my life just recently.
I watched my late wife of 19 years suffer from cervical cancer, radiation…chemo….the smell of her favorite food…the reality of knowing her mother was going to continue living a life in a world without her only daughter…in a world without her first son who left his baby sister so many years ago.

It’s my birthday and my gift is accepting her for who she is, and the only way I can, is to give her my unconditional love, knowing I can’t fix something that is not there. I’m 46 years old today. When I was 45, I would have told you, “Unconditional love”…it’s something said that’s not true.

I have $45 dollars in my wallet and there’s no money in the bank. It’s my birthday and I feel like I’m going to be OK.

Ox Drover

Dear Kureyus,

I hear your pain, I wish there was some way to reach out and put a salve on the worst of the raw flesh, but only time and the slow healing of a deep burn will accomplish that…but in spite of how you may feel now, you are right, you WILL be okay.

I hope you will feel comforted and welcome here among others who have encountered pain of similar circumstances of intensity and loss. Welcome to the club no one wants to join, but there are definitely benefits of membership if you do need to join. God bless.


Ox Drover, thanks for reaching out to the woman whose story is on my blog. I’m sure it will help her to know that there are others who can relate!!

You’re right, this is a club that no one wants to join, but there are some really great people here and at least we’re not alone in this!


The sociopaths you are describing fill the rosters of entertainment celebrities many living in trailer parks admire, from Madonna to Lindsay, they are crafted as idols for the weak minded to embrace, and hold up to themselves as perfection. And why not? They appear beautiful, rich, powerful, elegant, talented, intelligent, and adored, everything evil people desire for themselves, and exactly what their victims crave from them.

Victims, ask yourselves, if it is so unfair to judge a book by it’s cover, they why can’t you get past the gift wrapping?

Jimmy Soul sang, “If you want to be happy for the rest of your life, never make a pretty woman (man) your wife.”

Evil people, commonly known as marketeers in the entertainment and advertising industries, create celebrities to take advantage of consumers like you. Collectively, they will bleed your wallets, mess with your values, and ridicule you for letting them.

And there’s nothing smart about living on the street.

Instead of crying wolf, perhaps you should look at where you fit in the big picture, and bow out gracefully. Turn off the TV, dismiss people who criticize you for doing so, read a good book, and work on your values.

You do have a decent family values, don’t you?


flaming grey rock.


Ox Drover, you always make me smile and thoughtfully ponder your words. Such a wise old soul…

To those wondering if one can ever get past a horrific experience with a sociopath… Yes, you can. It’s very hard, it’s very painful and it’s a deeply spiritual forgiveness of yourself and the choices we made.

I was with a monster for 26 years. I’ve had more broken bones then I can count, been tortured, beat, burned with cigarettes, not allowed friends, isolated, humilated and insulted on a daily basis for what amounts to half of my life. I turned 52 two days ago.

By the time I worked up the courage to leave 8 years ago, I couldn’t even look at myself in the mirror and was as timid as a mouse and afraid of my own shadow.

The healing was very slow the first six years. Socially awkward and not even knowing how to date, every single step was terrifying. I thought since I now knew that what I went thru was ‘domestic abuse’ that of course I wouldn’t pick the same type person… I did though. I married a man a few years ago who always called me ‘woman’, would tell me to shut the ‘f’ up, among other things. I was just grateful he didn’t physically hurt me… Sad, that that was enough for so long.

Last year, in one amazing moment I instantly understood all of the choices I had made in life and why… You see, when I was 11, my father, a police officer, was killed in an armed robbery. The day after he was killed I accidentally overheard that if it wasn’t for my doctor bills my Dad wouldn’t have been working that day and would still be alive… I never told anyone what I had heard that day, especially the person who said it.

Last year I finally told the person what I’d heard that day… It was then that I discovered I had literally been a martyr without a cause. It was immediately healing to have finally told, but as the months passed and all of these epiphanies of my life choices were happening, it was then that I finally truly understood. ‘I’ had given myself the life that I thought I deserved.

Since that moment I’ve been changing and healing at an amazing rate. Seven months ago I left my current husband and am now living on my own for the first time in my life. I’m so happy I could cry from the sheer joy of it!

I’ve spent the last year trying to learn and understand everything I could find on psychopaths, sociopaths, narcissists, paranoid personalities, bullies and much more. This was how I found Lovefraud and all of you great people.

I’ve learned that you MUST learn to love yourself AND like yourself. When you begin to do that, you literally raise the bar on what you’ll take from others. You also must forgive yourself and stop blaming yourself. This is just the ‘guilt dynamic’ that you’ve grown so accustomed to experiencing.

Instead, try to view it as a life lesson that helped you become a better person. Try not to be bitter. Try to love yourself. Forgive yourself. Life is supposed to be messy with mistakes. The key is learning from your mistakes.

I now recognize instantly the ‘bad’ people…the negative, life sucking manipulators who feed on your despair. These can be family, friends, coworkers. Learn to keep them at a distance. Surround yourself with positive people and go jump back into your life!

Finally, as an artist, I can look back and see that I did some of my best work during my darkest times. My art soothed my ravaged soul and still does to this day. Find what you like to do, or ever thought of doing and go for it. You’ll find a serenity and peace so deep that you will truly feel the beginning of hope.

I’m using my real name of ‘missourijewel’ because I just can’t hide who I am anymore. (
I am who I am…

Sending you all a big hug, and hopes that every day finds each of you smiling a little brighter.

Nancy Boevingloh


Welcome. Nancy.
Congratulations on your amazing break through .
It’s so cool to hear how those revelations allowed you to heal yourself and that you were able to create a new and better life from those ashes.
Thanks for sharing your story.


The spath fake loved the things i most like about myself, most feel i am at core (in terms of positive inherent talents and qualities; and the things i have worked to develop).

this devalued them. devalued me. i hold them at arms length – afraid, more than ever, to touch them/ live them. to even feel them.

this is my job. i have to reclaim them.

Ox Drover

Dear MissouriJewel, Nancy,

Thank you so much! And I am so glad that you are healing at last!

I am so glad that you were finally able to confront the person who said those terrible words to your father’s daughter. To that child I am sure he adored. WHAT A WASTE! It is amazing though how some people have to find SOMEONE to blame for things…even and innocent child…instead of blaming the person who actually killed him.

The what ifs, and the why nots, and all the other things that could have been but weren’t…those things that were NOT, are NOT to blame for what happens in this life. I am so sorry that you experienced such a blow. You know that you did NOT deserve that—or the life that you gave yourself because of that blame….

Thank you for sharing your growth with us, you sound like you are finally putting the pieces of the puzzle together to form a wonderful picture of yourself. Congratulations! Stick around, I think you have a wise head and some good advice for the rest of us! (((hugs)))

Ps. I’m glad I make you smile! I laugh a lot at myself too!


To TRIAL or not to TRIAL? EB, Matt?? People with trial knowledge?

It appears the H’s lawyer is “winning” in her arguments as she has convinced one judge to side with her, in H’s favor, and she pushes hard on two big issues, though one is based on a guess not evidence.

After the pre-trial judge’s recommendation, I feel defeated and helpless. This makes me more stubborn on principle and I am thinking to risk losing lots by going to trial for the sake of having my “day in court.”

We are not arguing over a LOT of money. I may stand to lose all that we are disagreeing over, or more, if we go to trial–with the lawyer’s time at court, and judge’s unfair or biased decision.

So why would I want to do it?

Just sheer rage at being bullied and pushed around in the so called negotiations.

One circular issue is whether my pension should be counted toward my total assets. He says yes, bec. it is higher than his soc. security; bec. if I die tomorrow there is a lump sum to be left to a beneficiary. I say no, bec. his social security is listed as zero though he, too, has contributed to it; bec. I CANNOT take money from my pension now; and if I quit my job and take the money, then I don’t get any pension at retirement, and in my state teachers don’t get ANY soc. security; and bec. he hasn’t shown a current statement of his current monthly benefit, so we can’t compare my benefit to a zero, because his isn’t a zero.

Everyone believes the other atty’s logic, including the judge.

Issue two: If they do supply the soc. sec. statement and their argument proves moot bec. his is higher or equal to mine, so it’s a wash of those two assets, then she’ll push on the house being gifted by his father and he deserving a larger equity at least equal to the half of the gift. She’s been pushing that like a bulldog.

So he’s fighting hard to come out with MORE than me in the end, by my paying him a bigger chunk of equity.

Meanwhile our monthly/yearly incomes are disparate, and I am not asking to equalize that with alimony. Even after child support, he makes significantly more than me.

So if he won’t settle to be even, I don’t want to back down and let him have more than me. I feel it would be one last and permanent way that he’d screw me over, have the last word, win, dominate or control me. It’s about more than money.

And I think why would I really want to go to trial?

I can’t imagine how stressful and embarrassing it would be. But for whom? Would a narcissist really want to be exposed for all his lousy behaviors in public in a court of law? I’ve seen him in court before when we sued a contractor that built a leaky chimney, and he was scared of judges. So do I have an upper hand in court just because I am not scared of the law?

He has been arrested many times as a youth for drugs. His dad expunged the FBI records. But since then he fears the law, cops, courts, judges. I believe he’d rather avoid them. And I believe he’d rather avoid the cost of trial.

IF we went to trial, what could I actually say to damage his credibility and reputation?

In comparison, with women being phsyically abused, would my story seem petty?

YOur honor, he called me names. DOes that sound ludicrous?
Your honor, he locked me out f the house. Rejected me sexually. Used humiliating insults to reject me. Physically threatened me with fast driving in a car, punching holes in walls, grabbing me by the neck, breaking down a door jamb. Would I bring witnesses? Therapists protect confidentiality I believe, so one of them couldn’t testify about his violent sexual fantasies of rape, but I could.

I don’t even know if I could use information from his youth about drug arrests, especially if records are expunged. It may not be pertinent to the marriage.

I also wonder how he could sling mud to tarnish my reputation and make me look bad. Would this be woth it, to have to answer nasty questions in public?

I can’t tell if he’d back down and settle just due to his fear of exposure? The bad thing is that he has had a GOOD experience in court last time and may be encouraged.

I know most cases don’t goto trial. BUT. What if I just don’t want to give in to his unfair terms and be taken advantage of?

Anyone with trial experience, tell me what you know, please.


Dear MissouriJewel, I restore antique lighting as a hobby and to resell (as well as other creative outlets). Your shades are GORGEOUS…FAB!

I love the whimsy! Always wanted to try to work in stained glass. I’m a long time solderer (Government, and commercial oil rig control panels), and fix my own copper pipe. Figured that someday I’d like to give it a try. Very inspiring!

Ox Drover

Dear WArrior,

Darling, I can’t answer your questions to trial or not to trial, all I can say is I HEAR YA BABE! I understand it isn’t all about money. THAT IS FOR SURE!

The thing I DO know about is “horse trading” though and right up until you go in the courtroom door—up to that POINT in time, the negotiating is WHO WILL SAY CHICKEN FIRST! Who wants to go to trial the least? Who has the most to lose? Who will cave first? You are like two kids behind the wheels of their jaloppies and headed head on—who will swerve first? Or do you both go head on killing you both? Or killing one or the other of you?

I don’t know and neither do you…it is just a question of playing chicken with the money and the “win” or “lose” thing. Which is most important to whom.

I lost like a big dog in court on my divorce settlement (he and his witnesses LIED LIKE RUGS!) and you know, I came out with my under ware, the cat, the dog and a 10 year old truck and NOTHING ELSE except the 2 kids, but I managed. So in the end, no one can really PREDICT what they will do, will they swerve or not? Should we swerve or not? You just have to decide what is the most important to YOU and then go for it.

AND I say this, ONCE YOU HAVE MADE A FINAL DECISION—win or lose, do NOT GO BACK AND BEAT YOURSELF UP AND SAY “OH, I SHOULD HAVE DONE SOMETHING DIFFERENT” THAT IS VERY IMPORTANT. No matter what happens you made your “best guess” so don’t boink yourself after wards if it turned out to be wrong. Hind sight is 20/20 always! (((Hugs))))


We both know the answer to your question, don’t we?
Look at your name.
It doesn’t say “Settler” up there. 🙂
besides Oxy is probably right that they are testing your mettle.
Make it CLEAR that you are SO looking forward to going to court. It could inspire a better offer.


Usually it’s not a good idea to let emotion get the upper hand.

Anger is the main motivator why I’d go to court.

I read it may take 3 months to set a trial date–to allow preparation or get witnesses, though not sure.

If I had to prolong this another 3 months, to February, and prolong my anxiety and stress, not sure it’s worth it.

He loves battle. Do I give him the satisfaction by engaging? Or walk away and keep my peace let him have money.

His father went to court to contest his dead wife’s parents’ will, and spent $40K on lawyers and lost. Just out of spite. I am not sure if he would do the same, especially since he does NOT have the money for lawyers. . .

My life is a wreck. Divorce is horrible.


Dang! I hate it when I miss a coupla days on here! There’s SO MUCH GOOD STUFF to catch up on!

Ima start by posting this article in yesterday’s NYT, just becuz there was some discussion earlier about narcissists:

“The fifth edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (due out in 2013, and known as DSM-5) has eliminated five of the 10 personality disorders that are listed in the current edition.

Narcissistic personality disorder is the most well-known of the five, and its absence has caused the most stir in professional circles.

Most nonprofessionals have a pretty good sense of what narcissism means, but the formal definition is more precise than the dictionary meaning of the term.

Our everyday picture of a narcissist is that of someone who is very self-involved the conversation is always about them. While this characterization does apply to people with narcissistic personality disorder, it is too broad. There are many people who are completely self-absorbed who would not qualify for a diagnosis of N.P.D. ”

Ox Drover

Dear Warrior,

“Divorce is horrible” OH, HOW RIGHT YOU ARE!!!

MY guess (and that is a WAG –wild ass guess) is that if he “does not have money for lawyers” he will settle BEFORE court, but My guess is too that it will drag out til the LAST POSSIBLE SECOND BEFORE THE JUDGE SITS DOWN….I know you are in a hurry to get this OVER WITH, but that is what they are hoping you will do is cave and settle to just “get it over with”—it is one of the tactics, but at the end of the day ONLY YOU CAN DECIDE IF IT IS WORTH IT.

You are right, control of your emotions and anger is a biggie–is very important in making decisions.

BREATHE–breathe!!!! Go get a massage! Relax, breathe!!! Get another massage.

I sent for a book about Oxytocin (the bonding hormone and the hormone for peace and calm) is released by touch, and massage is great for that! Hug your son, hugs your friends, get a massage and do your best to just sit back and JUST CALMLY let HIM SWEAT!

Ox Drover

Dear WhyMe,

We miss you too. There are some articles here and Donna and Liane did a survey which was sent to the group working on the DSM V—and it isn’t GREAT but it is in many ways PROGRESS. There have in my opinion been TOO MANY divisions of different PDs which are so overlapping as to be meaningless.

Don’t be gone so long next time! Takes too long to catch up!


Hi whyme
I read that article.
I think they removed NPD so they wouldn’t have to diagnose the entire population of the US with it. Sooner or later the insurance companies would get dragged in…LOL
There was an interesting link with a test for personality disorders somewhere on that article. My BF and I had fun taking it.

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