By Ox Drover
One of the themes that seems to run throughout the stories of many of, if not most of, the people who have had experiences with psychopaths is that we have either had repeated episodes of being abused by the same psychopath, even after we saw their dishonesty, or had episodes of being sucked into the webs of multiple psychopaths. Or, we have both of these—multiple episodes with multiple psychopaths.
Most of the people I have known who were formerly victims of psychopaths are not stupid. In fact, some of the smartest, most accomplished people I know are former victims, and have been repeatedly victimized by one psychopath after finding out that this person was dishonest and abusive. Somehow, they kept on going back to the relationship, even after multiple attempts to disengage from the abuser. Why? Why does a person who is smart, accomplished, and otherwise successful in life and business keep repeating the same behavior that allows them to be hurt?
There is an often-used quote, “Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.” It seems by this definition that the victims of psychopaths are “insane,” because we keep on trying to have a relationship with someone who is repeatedly abusive. There must be some reason that otherwise smart and successful people keep repeating the behavior that is unsuccessful in its outcome. There must be some common thread among victims and former victims that makes us susceptible to frequently returning to an unsuccessful and painful relationship.
Here’s a little story that may contain what may be a grain of truth that might point us toward the answer to the question of. “Why?”
The Chief and the Snake
Once upon a time there was a very wise and kind Indian chief. One day as the chief was walking through the forest, he came upon a rattlesnake in the path. He stopped and started to go around the snake, not wanting to hurt it, but not wanting to be bitten either.
As the chief started to pass around the snake, the snake spoke to him (not an unusual thing in those days) and said, “Chief, please have mercy on me, my wife and family are on the other side of yonder river, and I can’t swim, and I can’t get to them. Won’t you please pick me up and carry me across the river?”
The chief looked at the snake and laughed a bit and said, “Why, if I tried to pick you up you would bite me and I would die. I am sad that you have a problem but I must not be bitten, or I would die and my own children would starve because there would be no strong man with a bow to hunt brother deer to provide meat to my little ones. Though my heart feels sad for you, no, I must refuse to pick you up.”
The snake then spoke to the chief saying, “But such a brave man as you should not be afraid of such a small snake as I, and I promise from the bottom of my heart that I would never harm you if you were to help me across yon river. I am so afraid that if I am not able to get across, my wife and children will perish. Please help me in my hour of need.”
The chief looked at the snake and his heart was sad because he knew what it was like to have one’s children without food. His heart took pity on the snake, and he agreed to take the snake across the river, if the snake would agree not to bite him.
The chief reached out to pick up the snake and held him high over his head as he waded the swift and cold waters of the river. About half way across the river when the chief was doing his best to protect the snake from the cold waters, the snake reached down and bit him on the neck, sinking his poison fangs deep into the chief’s blood stream.
The chief was surprised and said to the snake, “Brother Snake, why did you bite me, now I will die and you will drown as well. You promised on your honor not to bite me if I would have mercy on you and help you, now we shall both die and our children starve. You promised me.”
The snake replied, “Ah yes, I promised, but you knew what I was when you picked me up,” as they both sank under the swirling cold water of the river.
What we have in common with the chief
What caused the chief to reach out and pick up a snake that he knew was poisonous, that he knew had the power to harm him, and that if he was wrong in making this decision to pick up the snake, and the snake did bite him, that his own children would suffer because of his decision?
Empathy is what the chief had, empathy for the children of the snake. Because the chief loved his own children, he assumed that the snake must also love its children. Just as the chief would do what was best for his children, he empathized that the snake would also do what was best. Since the chief knew that he would never do anything deliberately to cause consequences for his children, he did not see that the snake would deliberately do something that would cause problems for his own offspring.
Thinking that others have the same motivations that we have can get us into the same problems that the chief got into. The chief wanted to help the snake. He felt pity for the snake. He knew that he would not want someone to refuse to help him if it meant that he would die and his children would go hungry, so it never dawned on him that the snake would be willing to make a decision to do a deed that would insure that the snake-children would go hungry.
The chief’s empathy and his thinking that others had the same empathy, the same motivation for their behavior, and no reason to hurt another, even at the cost of hurting themselves or their near and dear, caused him to want to believe the snake’s promise not to bite.
The snake, however, was right. The chief knew what he was when he picked him up. When we allow ourselves to believe the promises of people who have proven that they are dishonest, we open ourselves to be repeatedly injured or even killed. When someone shows you what they are, believe your eyes. Believe what you see, not what you hear.
No Contact
“No contact” is the commonly accepted “treatment” for any abusive relationship. This means that only contact that is required by law (such as meeting that person in a courtroom due to a law uit) or the minimum amount of contact required by law to co-parent with such a person, is the only interaction between you and your former abuser. No contact allows the injuries to cease, and keeps you safe from new and repeated injuries from the abuser.
“No contact” also includes not stalking the person’s Facebook page or other social media. It means blocking or deleting any text messages, phone calls, e-mails or any other form of communication, including having others tell you what the former abuser is “up to.” Refusing to engage in tale carrying, gossip, or drama involved with the former abuser is also essential. If you must speak about the relationship, do it ONLY with a trusted friend or family member who sees that the relationship was/is abusive, and with assurances that the person will keep your information in absolute confidence. This process can be likened to “not renting them space in your head,” which includes wondering if they have a new relationship, and if they are making this new person happy o,r if they will change for this new person, or wondering if you were wrong about what they are.
You know what they are now, so don’t pick them up. NO CONTACT WORKS.
There is no reason to block him. He does not contact me. When he is online, his picture pops up with the other people in my town who are online. I was really doing so good. I am not seeing what you are all saying abuot how I’m too good for him. I don’t think he’s a jerk. I don’t think he did anything wrong except lose interest. It happens all the time. When I lose interest in someone, I stop reaching out to them, too. The guy I was talking to on the dating site was a very nice man who seems to have the type of character I am looking for in a man, though I’m not sure if I could be attracted. But I was writing him anyway because I like him as a person. He sent me the nicest email telling me where he went dancing this past weekend. I am realizing that I am still not out there like the rest of the world going out and doing things. My income and self-esteem are not to where I am ready to go out and meet people. Mr. exciting next door paid down his mortgage and only has about a $300 mortgage each month for which he earns almost a 6 figure income teaching guitar. He also performs in various bands. I’m sure he is looking for a really exciting and beautiful (younger) woman. Funny he said on his profile that he likes to travel and wants to travel all over the world. He knows how much I love to travel, but that doesn’t interest him in the least. I’m seeing myself through his eyes, and I can’t help it. It wouldn’t be so bad if I hadn’t slept with him. 3 times, mind you. Ugh. If I’d just kept a neighborly distance, everything would be good. I feel so crappy that I let myself fall for him when he obviously was not that interested in me. I couldn’t help it. He is one of the most magnetic men I’ve ever met. I really just couldn’t help myself.
Star,
I love you to pieces. But there is something here I see that I would like to share with you.
Block him. Period. If you weren’t troubled with the way he treated you, you wouldn’t be triggered this way.
PLEASE do not “generalize” what men do or don’t do. This is a BAD MAN! Oh sure, men “lose interest”….but a guy you SLEPT WITH A FEW TIMES, shared INTIMATELY with? and he walks by you as if you don’t EXIST? Nuh uh. You can’t excuse this man’s behavior as a generality star. It’s not. HE”S A DICK!!!
You fell for another spath, Star. Traits probably, but nonetheless, all the same. It’s okay to take responsibility for having allowed yourself to sleep with this guy but it is NOT your responsibility for the SHITTY way he’s treated you!!!
THIS IS NOT A GOOD GUY AND HE DOES NOT BELONG IN THE “GENERALIZED” CATEGORY!! THat’s reserved for men you’ve gone out to dinner with but never SLEPT with a time or two.
NOT THIS, Star.
Good guys don’t treat women they’ve slept with even “casually” this way. Unless he’s a DICK!
And he’s a DICK star.
It’s not YOU. It’s HIM! Why do you put yourself down while elevating an asshole? Why do you allow men to define you?
You’re one hot babe, Chica. You deserve ONLY THE BEST….but this emphasis on men is a bit much.
How do you feel about you when it’s just Star being with Star WITHOUT a man?
There are so many wonderful things about you, Star.
Without a dick present. Only a GOOD MAN deserves you now.
Block this guy. I believe his behaviors indicate a bit of spathy traits.
You’re way way way too good for this guy. And guess what, star? Even with traits? He’ll do it to a lot of other women too, if he’s not done so already.
I’m still super triggered by that other post. Going to bed.
(((((((((((((( Star ))))))))))))))))))))
((((((((((((((( Onesy )))))))))))))))))
((((((((((((((((((( SK )))))))))))))))))))
(((((((((((((((( Ms Sky ))))))))))))))))))
((((((((((((((((((( mama Gem ))))))))))))))))))
(((((((((((((((( ox )))))))))))))))))))))))
Sweet dreams!
LL
Star ~ I meant block him so you can’t see what he’s doing. I hate to see you torture yourself like this hon. It’s not good for you. The guy sounds as if he’s just “fishing” looking for some band groupies maybe?? Six figures, teaching guitar?? Sounds a bit “fishy” to me, unless he’s giving lessons to celebrities or something…
I once new a tremendously magnetic man… here I am 25 years later and I still remember the chemistry… WOW. It is a nice memory for me now, but it took awhile to get over the realization that it was only playtime and nothing more for him.
You can shake this Star, I know you can. (((hugs)))
hi every one,
i was here almost everyday , but didnt get the courage to sign in…i am ashamed cuz, i should know better and give others with more to deal with the space…
but i cant even breath…
i see him every day and cant turn away..his son run to me and ask me to take him to have ice cream and i do it..
ofcourse he also come with us..i dont have no feelings but why he couldnt be the person i want him to be..i know he is not…i droped them back and went to my house …closed the door …cryed…he knoked on the door for at least an hour..try to climb thru the balcony…i didnt move..i know i dont want him any more…but WHY DOES IT HURTS SO BAD…
I know i am not the mother..never will be..but he asked me in the car…do you want my son…i looked at him ..he said , i am not good enough , my ex is not either..i would like you to have him…i knew it was a joke ..but from a meth addict..? is it true..or is it he is trying to con me with his son…he is 5 and i know him from age 2…the kid look up to me as i am somebody to him, trust me, come to my house and eat as if its his own…and i dont mind…he brings me wild flowers , because he knows that will make me happy…i told him when he was baby, if he think of me pick a flower from any where and he does it ..so you know how attached i am to this kid..
but i do understand i am being used, by the parents..how do you get out….
i cant breath, i cant cry no more….
he cheated on me over and over…never got to my money..but took a lot of stuffs , old cloths, tables, computer, camera, cell phones…hey…i didnt care..but not to the money …but he have my info
help….some one slap me with words..let me wake up..
love, nightgal
See, I don’t see it as him being a bad person. He is just a man who is used to getting whatever woman he wants. And a LOT of men are like this – willing to have sex with someone they do not have feelings for. I was doing fine with it and looking forward to ignoring him this summer at the pool. But there is no way to block him on the dating site. You cannot stop a profile from appearing there when someone is online. I don’t see much else of whatever he’s doing. He’s a bit of a weirdo and a pothead, too. Even though he never returned my last call, I saw him in the gym a few weeks later, and he was very friendly. In fact, he seemed to be watching me swim and waiting for me to get out of the pool. It was very odd. I was the one who blew him off that night, and he has avoided me ever since. I should have known from the start that I could never sleep with someone like this because he is used to a different kind of woman and could not appreciate someone like me. People like him, for some reason, really make all of my self-esteem issues light up. We are really different. If only I hadn’t slept with him, I would have messaged him on the dating site and asked him how dating is going. We could have just remained friends as we always were. I don’t know why I had to cross the line with him. He flirted with me one day after 6 years of being casual neighbors. I just went for it. I didn’t think about the consequences. I was able to keep my cool with him when I got back from Costa Rica because I had two other men on my mind, and he was nothing to me. But I always fall too hard and scare them away. Maybe he could have handled things differently. But I take responsibility for this. I should NOT have slept with him and gotten my hopes up.
Star,
he IS a spath. YES he is. I’ve known it since the first time you talked about him but I didn’t want to say it because you wouldn’t believe me anyway.
The thing about spaths, Star, is that they are shallow. That is ONE clue. There are others. My spath did all he could to represent himself as DEEP and a modest, humble man. So some of them know the drill, but the majority of toxins are into the FACADE, so they gravitate to professions where the FACADE is the key. Rock music is one of them Oh and BTW, my exspath was a lead guitar player when I met him. He had been in a band that opened for Heart.
After I left my spath, I looked up some of the members of the band he had been in. it was popular enough so that you could still google it and get hits. One member, has been interviewed over the years by different magazine. Another is dead of AIDS. But the guy who was interviewed gave an interesting interview. He said that women are basically meant to support a man so he doesn’t have to work. Then he can play music and fuck other women.
It was at that point that I realized why my exP picked me. I had a really good job and I was only 17, plus I was hot.
Tell you what Star. I can prove to you that I’m right about your spath neighbor. Do a backspath. Do everything you can to act like you’ve just come into a large amount of money. borrow a fancy car and say you bought it. buy some trendy clothes. Tell him about your inheritance. Do a total scam. and WATCH how fast you become interesting.
NightGal,
No, not going to slap you.
(((hugs))) work much better. It’s the lack of hugs in your life that make you vulnerable. (Don’t cry when you read that, it’s just a fact, I know, it happened to me)
You are a soft-hearted, empathic person who loves. He knows this. He wants to hurt you. He uses his son.
He will never stop until YOU set the boundary.
Gray Rock is the way. Learn to show no emotion to him or his son. And go find good people to share hugs with. Come here as often as you need to because this place is like heaven on earth. I’ve never found so much love and empathy as I’ve found here. It helps so much that I’ve been able to go out and meet people again. I hope to be able to connect to others soon too.
Nightgal,
My x-spath BF also had a little boy who he used to manipulate me, because he knew how much I wanted to be a mom. And he also “offered” his son to me, he said he would “sign him over to me” if I would pay the child support. At first I thought he was joking & laughed – but he was serious!!! Never mind that the mother had primary custody! At one point he wanted to give up his visitation rights – I regret that I discouraged him from doing so, not knowing his “true colors” at the time, I just thought he was having trouble being a weekend dad.
We broke up almost 3 months ago, I have been NC except he did send a couple of e-mails I read before blocking him. In both of them he tried to use the child, telling me how much his son missed me, asking me to be a “friend” and “role model” to both of them. I finally realized the only friends the boy needs are the ones his own age! I wasn’t with the spath long enough for his son to remember me, and he is very young so has probably pretty much forgotten about me (unless his dad brings it up.)
I pray for the little guy, yes I was attached to him but I’m nothing to him now. It’s too bad he has a spath father but his mother seems to take pretty good care of him so all I can do is send him good wishes from a distance.
Hang in the Nightgal, it DOES get better, the fog started to lift for me recently and I am slowly getting back to “normal” or as close as I can. NC is the only way to go!
Dear Ox Drover,
Essentially the lawyer is going to send a letter to BM stating that that one, he has a lot of dirt on her, and two she is not to further inquire about my siblings or I. The idea is to make the boundary clear, so that she doesn’t just show up looking for us and ooops didn’t realize we didn’t want to see her.
Also the idea is so that I can raise my children etc, and not live in ridiculous vigilance. She hasn’t killed anybody (that I know of), she is too cheap to pay somebody to do it, and it wouldn’t be enough stimulus for her to be in prison. She loves being out and about too much.. . .
Sky,
Why is a guy who lost interest in me a spath? I’m not seeing it. He is just not interested in me. He never was that interested. I just went there in my imagination. I feel like a jackass. Granted, I do feel discarded. But that in itself does not make a person a spath. I’ve been on the other end of that with guys I wasn’t that interested in, too. That doesn’t make me a spath. I hope. This guy NEVER love bombed me. He never pretended any interest he didn’t have. And he has NO seduction skills. He also has no money problems. He is one of the better known guitar teachers in town with many students. He charges $45 for a half-hour and has multiple students a day. He works a lot and then performs in a few bands, too. I’ve seen him do it, and I’ve had a few guitar lessons from him. I know he’s not lying. He came from a wealthy family who he is still close to. He will never have any money issues, and he certainly doesn’t want my money. The few times we went out, he always paid my way.
I don’t think he ever was the right person for me, obviously. But I am taking this hard. This is my self-esteem issue, not his. I mean, I suppose he could have come to me and told me he is not interested in me and asked me if I am okay. Would that have made things better? What should he have done? He did try to make contact with me at the gym that day. I blew him off. He is the one around the holidays who encouraged me to go to the gym 3 times a week with him. I was the one who didn’t want to go because I was not liking the gym. I suppose he could have been more encouraging. I just pushed him away. I never had the confidence to date him. There was a window of time in November after I’d returned from Costa Rica. I was tan, relaxed, and had fallen for someone else – the guy in Costa Rica. I also really liked this guy in California that I was hoping to meet. At that time, I was very attractive to the neighbor because I didn’t want him that much. He is a guy who is very much attracted to women who are extremely confident and together. He pushed all my self-esteem buttons from the beginning. Looking back, after I slept with him in November, he did continue to call, but as a friend. He invited me to do a lot of things, and he even took me to a Dr. appointment. But he never showed any signs of romantic interest. I think he just regarded me as a friend. Or maybe he was trying to let me down easy by showing that he still cared about me as a neighbor. I don’t really know. I couldn’t figure it out.
None of this makes me feel any better. It feels like a knife is stuck into my gut. You know, you can’t make a person want you. But just because they don’t want you, how does this make them sociopaths? Raymond (the guy in Costa Rica) stopped writing in January. Does this make him a sociopath, too? This is so confusing for me. I’m not seeing what you see, Sky. Maybe he’s selfish and materialistic and somewhat shallow. But all people like that are not sociopaths? When all is said and done, he has actually done much more for me that what I’ve done for him. He has given me two lessons, pet sat for me once, and took me to a MD appt at 7:30 am . I’ve given him ONE massage. It was a medical massage that I used for practice.