By Ox Drover
One of the themes that seems to run throughout the stories of many of, if not most of, the people who have had experiences with psychopaths is that we have either had repeated episodes of being abused by the same psychopath, even after we saw their dishonesty, or had episodes of being sucked into the webs of multiple psychopaths. Or, we have both of these—multiple episodes with multiple psychopaths.
Most of the people I have known who were formerly victims of psychopaths are not stupid. In fact, some of the smartest, most accomplished people I know are former victims, and have been repeatedly victimized by one psychopath after finding out that this person was dishonest and abusive. Somehow, they kept on going back to the relationship, even after multiple attempts to disengage from the abuser. Why? Why does a person who is smart, accomplished, and otherwise successful in life and business keep repeating the same behavior that allows them to be hurt?
There is an often-used quote, “Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.” It seems by this definition that the victims of psychopaths are “insane,” because we keep on trying to have a relationship with someone who is repeatedly abusive. There must be some reason that otherwise smart and successful people keep repeating the behavior that is unsuccessful in its outcome. There must be some common thread among victims and former victims that makes us susceptible to frequently returning to an unsuccessful and painful relationship.
Here’s a little story that may contain what may be a grain of truth that might point us toward the answer to the question of. “Why?”
The Chief and the Snake
Once upon a time there was a very wise and kind Indian chief. One day as the chief was walking through the forest, he came upon a rattlesnake in the path. He stopped and started to go around the snake, not wanting to hurt it, but not wanting to be bitten either.
As the chief started to pass around the snake, the snake spoke to him (not an unusual thing in those days) and said, “Chief, please have mercy on me, my wife and family are on the other side of yonder river, and I can’t swim, and I can’t get to them. Won’t you please pick me up and carry me across the river?”
The chief looked at the snake and laughed a bit and said, “Why, if I tried to pick you up you would bite me and I would die. I am sad that you have a problem but I must not be bitten, or I would die and my own children would starve because there would be no strong man with a bow to hunt brother deer to provide meat to my little ones. Though my heart feels sad for you, no, I must refuse to pick you up.”
The snake then spoke to the chief saying, “But such a brave man as you should not be afraid of such a small snake as I, and I promise from the bottom of my heart that I would never harm you if you were to help me across yon river. I am so afraid that if I am not able to get across, my wife and children will perish. Please help me in my hour of need.”
The chief looked at the snake and his heart was sad because he knew what it was like to have one’s children without food. His heart took pity on the snake, and he agreed to take the snake across the river, if the snake would agree not to bite him.
The chief reached out to pick up the snake and held him high over his head as he waded the swift and cold waters of the river. About half way across the river when the chief was doing his best to protect the snake from the cold waters, the snake reached down and bit him on the neck, sinking his poison fangs deep into the chief’s blood stream.
The chief was surprised and said to the snake, “Brother Snake, why did you bite me, now I will die and you will drown as well. You promised on your honor not to bite me if I would have mercy on you and help you, now we shall both die and our children starve. You promised me.”
The snake replied, “Ah yes, I promised, but you knew what I was when you picked me up,” as they both sank under the swirling cold water of the river.
What we have in common with the chief
What caused the chief to reach out and pick up a snake that he knew was poisonous, that he knew had the power to harm him, and that if he was wrong in making this decision to pick up the snake, and the snake did bite him, that his own children would suffer because of his decision?
Empathy is what the chief had, empathy for the children of the snake. Because the chief loved his own children, he assumed that the snake must also love its children. Just as the chief would do what was best for his children, he empathized that the snake would also do what was best. Since the chief knew that he would never do anything deliberately to cause consequences for his children, he did not see that the snake would deliberately do something that would cause problems for his own offspring.
Thinking that others have the same motivations that we have can get us into the same problems that the chief got into. The chief wanted to help the snake. He felt pity for the snake. He knew that he would not want someone to refuse to help him if it meant that he would die and his children would go hungry, so it never dawned on him that the snake would be willing to make a decision to do a deed that would insure that the snake-children would go hungry.
The chief’s empathy and his thinking that others had the same empathy, the same motivation for their behavior, and no reason to hurt another, even at the cost of hurting themselves or their near and dear, caused him to want to believe the snake’s promise not to bite.
The snake, however, was right. The chief knew what he was when he picked him up. When we allow ourselves to believe the promises of people who have proven that they are dishonest, we open ourselves to be repeatedly injured or even killed. When someone shows you what they are, believe your eyes. Believe what you see, not what you hear.
No Contact
“No contact” is the commonly accepted “treatment” for any abusive relationship. This means that only contact that is required by law (such as meeting that person in a courtroom due to a law uit) or the minimum amount of contact required by law to co-parent with such a person, is the only interaction between you and your former abuser. No contact allows the injuries to cease, and keeps you safe from new and repeated injuries from the abuser.
“No contact” also includes not stalking the person’s Facebook page or other social media. It means blocking or deleting any text messages, phone calls, e-mails or any other form of communication, including having others tell you what the former abuser is “up to.” Refusing to engage in tale carrying, gossip, or drama involved with the former abuser is also essential. If you must speak about the relationship, do it ONLY with a trusted friend or family member who sees that the relationship was/is abusive, and with assurances that the person will keep your information in absolute confidence. This process can be likened to “not renting them space in your head,” which includes wondering if they have a new relationship, and if they are making this new person happy o,r if they will change for this new person, or wondering if you were wrong about what they are.
You know what they are now, so don’t pick them up. NO CONTACT WORKS.
First of all, everyone, thanks for giving me a place to vent in the middle of the night when I’m upset. I appreciate all of you SO much – much more than you can imagine. I really need to think this through.
You know, I’m considering stopping all of this cold war nonsense and just emailing him on the dating site very casually to ask him how he likes the site. Maybe if he knows I’m okay with it, we can just go back to being neighborly and talking casually again. I hate all of this avoidance stuff. I’m sure he’s not doing it out of meanness. He just doesn’t want to deal with my hurt feelings. He probably feels guilty. This is my issue with men. I get TOO involved and have WAY too many feelings too soon. I did it with the guy in Costa Rica, too, though I think he was a slightly better match for me. I have no regrets about him because he opened his heart to me to whatever extent he could, in two weeks. But this is the catch 22 for me. I’ve discussed it with several counselors and they all agree. I think a LOT of men will sleep with a woman just because, without necessarily having strong feelings. A lot of women can do it too. If I could just avoid sleeping with them in these early stages, I’d be okay.
The neighbor may not be the most skillful with women. But I can’t blame him for the way I handled it, jumping into bed with him so soon. He was just being a guy. This is what most guys do. That doesn’t mean they are not capable of falling in love. I need to stop beating myself up because this dude rejected me. It just means he’s not right for me. It is very awkward for us not to speak to each other. As usual, it will probably have to be me to speak first and say hello, just to let him know that it’s no big deal. I would rather be on neighborly terms with him again than this ridiculous avoidance drama. I have a lot of neighbors I don’t particularly like. But we all speak to each other.
Star,
Okay, let’s cut to the chase with this situation:
You slept with this hunky guy (good looking and a good living) three times.He lives in your building so it is hard to avoid him. Then he starts ignoring you.
He’s on an internet dating site that you are on and his picture pops up
All of this makes you FEEL BAD ABOUT YOURSELF. You feel rejected, you feel that he is an OK person but because her rejected you, that YOU ARE NOT AN OKAY PERSON.
Star AS LONG AS OUR “SELF” ESTEEM DEPENDS ON THE PERCEPTION OF SOMEONE ELSE WE HAVE NO SELF-ESTEEM.
He doesn’t have to be a psychopath to be a jerk wad. Lots of guys and gals will “casually” sleep with someone if the opportunity is there. It doesn’t “mean” anything to them except they want to get laid.
“Casual” sex is more or less “casual” to some than others….some people don’t even care about knowing your name, other people only sleep with those that they really care about.
TO ME (no criticism intended to anyone else’s choices) I reserve sex as a bonding ritual between two people who love each other.
Because I KNOW that I bond to who I am sleeping with. I could never have a “friends with benefits” for that reason.
Plus the fact that I am paranoid about sexually transmitted diseases and I know a condom doesn’t stop nearly all of even the very serious ones.
But the main thing is that WE MUST NOT allow our SELF-esteem be dependent on someone else—NOT ANYONE ELSE.
Feeling rejected to the point that you are in this “spin cycle” over this guy is over the top Star. The problem isn’t about HIM any more it is about YOU. WHY are YOU allowing this situation to hurt you so deeply?
Okay, he is a jerk wad who never had any intention of anything beyond just getting farked. WHY are YOU taking this as such a big rejection? Okay, to just “ignore you” like that is RUDE at the very least and “Nice guys” don’t treat people that way….so he probably isn’t really all that “nice.” So, why are you so upset over someone who is RUDE and NOT ALL THAT NICE “rejecting” you?
Star, sweetie…I think it is triggering some OLD ABANDONMENT issues somewhere deep down in the ONION that maybe need to be peeled back.
That and the other thing I would caution you on is the internet dating. Especially during a time when you are dealing with abandonment issues and in a “spin cycle.” Even if you were to meet “Prince Charming” on a dating site (not likely!) when you are dealing with abandonment issues is NOT the time to start looking or getting involved with someone.
Star, we’re here for you, you know that…and believe me when I say that developing “SELF” esteem that comes from the INSIDE is something that is difficult to do, but gives us security and gets rid of the abandonment issues. When we truly have SELF esteem, no one can take it away. (((hugs))))
Oxy,
What are you doing up in the middle of the night, you night owl?
Yes, you are exactly right. This is NOT about him – it’s about me. But it’s not abandonment (that’s a different issue) – it’s the feeling that I am not good enough to deserve a man that I desire. It’s the self-esteem issue. I don’t even know how to begin to work on it. The thing that triggered me the most is when he said in his profile that he is “looking for a relationship.” He had told me last summer that he was just having fun because he was recently in a bunch of relationships and burned out. I could live with that – that he just used me for fun and now wants to “have fun” with a bunch of other women. But seeing that was like a slap in the face to me – that he wants a relationship. It hits me in such a deep place. My typical pattern if I find a man truly interesting and exciting is to push him away before he can reject me. I’ve tried taking more risks in the past year. And now I realize why I push them away. Because the rejection really cuts deep. It doesn’t matter whether I label him as a jerk or not. When you give your body to someone and they reject you – it is just about the worst feeling I know. It doesn’t matter what he is. I keep getting hit with this lesson over and over again not to have casual sex. And yet, it is so rare when the opportunity presents itself these days. It’s hard for me to resist. I just tell myself that whatever will happen down the line, it’s worth it to live in the moment. I feel like I’m damned if I do and damned if I don’t. I cannot be a celibate monk for the rest of my life.
Oxy, re the internet dating, I rarely ever actually MEET guys from the site. I just have nice conversations once in a while, and it makes me feel like a woman. They rarely ever go anywhere – at least they haven’t in years.
I’m trying to understand that this guy is a jerk because he has casual sex. Is this true? Raymond and I started out casually in Costa Rica. It turned into something more, but I’m sure it was still more meaningful for me than for him. I don’t know where the line is for calling a man a jerk. I think there are so FEW really good men out there who will not jump on an opportunity to have sex. And I have been like this myself in the past. Does the joy living in the moment and not thinking about the consequences make someone a jerk? This guy never once lied to me. He never feigned interest. He never told me he loved me. None of it. What is it that makes him a jerk? I’m trying to understand. If I could hate him, it would be easier. It was very clearcut with the sociopath. He lied and deceived me, the army, and a whole bunch of other people. But this case is not clearcut. I really want to take responsibility for my own issue and not just blame the guy. It was MY choice to sleep with him. I knew what I was getting into.
Star, I just woke up early this morning…unusual for me….and got up.
Has it EVER OCCURRED TO YOU that you he put “looking for a relationship” on his profile because it catches more poon-tang than “just looking for a casual fark” would? LOL
WHY he is on a dating site or what his intentions are IS NOT THE PROBLEM, it is HOW YOU ARE INTERPRETING IT AND APPLYING IT TO YOUR SELF.
He’s looking for a relationship with someone else—so since he wasn’t looking for a relationship with you and is NOW (even if it is true) looking for someone it means YOU ARE NOT GOOD ENOUGH?
BULL CHIT!!!!
If this hunky guy didn’t want a relationshit with me, and does want one with someone else then it is because I am not good enough.
BULL CHIT! Gimmy a break
Casual sex is obviously a DOWNER for you, and you know that and YET YOU KEEP REPEATING IT —-Star what is it that they say “Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.” So what are you doing? The same thing over and over and getting the SAME RESULTS, so if you don’t like the results, then QUIT DOING IT.
That is exactly why I do not have “casual sex”—sex for me is a bonding ritual and if I were to sleep with someone it would be painful to me so I don’t do it. Not that there is a line forming out my door but you know if I was interested in CASUAL sex I wouldn’t have any problem finding it. There are lots of old guys out there that would like to get laid and they don’t care what she looks like or anything else—they can always close their eyes if they don’t like her looks. So even I could get laid pretty regularly if that was what I wanted and heck, Star I”m 64 and look every day of it.
So my only suggestion for you is to STOP what you are doing if you know it leads to painful feelings of rejection. Work on your SELF esteem, not depending on what others think of you or how they treat you.
Not everyone in the world is going to treat us nicely, and if every time someone is a jerk wad to us, if we take that as a “rejection” and let it make us feel bad about ourselves then we are going to be in a “spin cycle” all the time.
Star I want a relationship with a good man probably as much as you do, but I am NOT going to let my happiness or unhappiness, my peace or contentment in life DEPEND ON ME FINDING THAT relationship. My happiness and contentment DEPEND ON ME, not on what I have or don’t have. I had a good marriage, but unfortunately I did DEPEND too much on that marriage for my happiness and when he died I went into a spin and felt bad about myself, NEEDY and thought if I didn’t find another husband to love me I was going to be lonely and unhappy the rest of my life…..woe was me!
I found a man okay, a psychopathic cheater looking for another respectable wife to cheat on. Nope, that didn’t make me happy, and thank goodness I didn’t marry him. I pity the poor woman he did marry, I have no doubt that he’s cheating on her from the start, or that he is verbally and emotionally abusive.
I’m just glad that I realize now that my happiness must come from inside me, my own SELF esteem. It is difficult to work on, painful, but it makes a lot more sense to depend on ME for my happiness than on someone else, because if they leave or die, then I’m back there again, UNHAPPY AND LONELY…looking for someone else to make me happy. This way I am happy, content and at peace….and if I find someone to SHARE that with, great, if not, it is still great!
Star, we posted over each other.
I am not saying to blame him for your feelings at all, but he is SHALLOW and OPPORTUNISTIC and just latched on to an opportunity for CASUAL SEX….most guys would. To me that means he isn’t “bad” or “horrible” or a psychopath, just a “jerk” that is out to get laid.
IF there is any FAULT or BLAME (or responsibility) for your feelings it lies 100% with YOU. YOU are choosing to interpret his rudeness and ignoring you as YOU ARE NOT GOOD ENOUGH FOR A RELATIONSHIP. That is BS.
As far as your relationship with Raymond, it was a holiday relationship, it happens, and may indeed have meant more to you than him, but it was a choice.
YOU chose to have consensual sex with both these men. One lives far away so you don’t feel “rejected” because the relationship didn’t continue, one lives close and you see him and he very rudely ignored you, didn’t at least say nicely “thanks for the casual sex, let’s just be friends” or whatever would have made you feel less rejected and bad…but since he didn’t say those things YOU DO NOT HAVE TO GO ON FEELING BAD. You can work through this as YOUR problem.
Feelings are not like tsunamis that just wash over us out of our control entirely, we have some choices here Star.
I think I’m gonna go back and take me a little nappie poo before I get up for the day. Later!
Hi Star. I can so identify with where you are at. I too get emotionally involved very quickly and tend to scare men off. I used to jump into bed fairly quickly, thinking that this closed the deal; that it meant we were in a relationship, or at least heading in that direction. I was very attracted to men that I percieved as strong, feircely independant. I always loved a challenge.
And, like you, I was baffled and confused when the guy did an about face, and I was left holding the emotional bag. It always felt like something inside me was dying.
These behaviors are ALL related to childhood woundings and trauma.
I am going to suggest something for you to think about.
Did you set yourself up for this? Are you attracted to men that will reject you? Do you think it’s possible that you are repeating an old trauma? Could it be that this is one way to insure that you won’t have to actually develope intimacy with someone? You’ve said before that you have trust issues.
You and I have the same diagnosis. I hate that I have it, but I guess it’s time to accept it and deal with it the best I can. One of the symptoms of that diagnosis is fear of intimacy and fear of abandonment….and yet there is an enormous need to be loved. What an absolute set-up for continual pain.
I noticed that in one of your last posts, you said that when he was pursuing you, you weren’t ALL THAT interested…but the minute you sensed him distancing from you, you get wrapped around the axil. This is the dance that keeps our relationships at an intimacy level we can tolerate. Not too much, but just a little. It keeps us crazy and obsessed.
I, personally have had enough. I don’t even date, for these reasons. I have been out of my last crazy relationship for 3 and a half years, and there is no man on the horizon…but I’m calm, and peaceful. I’m not in chaos, trauma and drama.
Maybe someday…I don’t know.
I live alone, have no money for fun stuff and keep to myself more than I would like. But here is the thing: I think that this solitude is what I’ve been running from my whole life and it is exactly where I need to be.
I am finding my creativity again, and it feels like a spiritual awakening. When ever I have a man on my mind, that creativity goes out the window, and my creativity is what I like most about myself.
I am having a blast working on my yard and planting little splashes of color here and there, in perfect balance one to the other. I am macraming plant hangers, and picking up broken bits of glass, stones, shells and stuff for some mozaic stepping stones of the near future.
I have an old garden bench in the back yard I’m thinking of spay painting, possibly try my hand at mozaic down the arms of it, not sure yet.
My point is that I agree with the others who said that your focus on this guy (in particular) and men (in general) is over the top. It keeps you stuck in rejection and crazyness. It distracts you from what’s really at issue…YOU and getting well and being content.
I hope that none of this is offensive to you. It is offered in the spirit of recovery.
I hope you are feeling better, today. ((((Star))))
man, you guys have been busy this morning!
dear star – i haven’t read all the responses up thread, but i read your earlier post about the boy next door, and BAM three huge red flags waved for me. you said: ‘Funny he said on his profile that he likes to travel and wants to travel all over the world. He knows how much I love to travel, but that doesn’t interest him in the least.’
ummmm, this is the thing – they borrow our lives to seduce us and others with. and the ‘looking for a relationship’ thing. yah, right. I have fallen for that with women. stupid me.
‘He is one of the most magnetic men I’ve ever met. ‘ no doubt. and so was my spath.
best,
one joy
Star, I have gleaned a lot of insight by googling “the borderline/narcissistic relationship. It seems to be quite common for these two disorders to hoo up. But, one of the most insightful articles I found on-line was, “Borderline Males I’ve Known and Almost Loved.”
I’m not suggesting that your hunky neighbor guy is a borderline, or a Narcssist, butanythings possible. Actually, I think the article does an excellent job of explaining the push-pull come here, go away dynamic of borderline relationships. The dual fears of intimacy/abandonment that plague those relationships.
Any way give it a gander, if you want and se what you think. If it doesn’t apply, it doesn’t apply.
kim – thanks for recommending Borderline Males I’ve Known and Almost Loved, and for mentioning the push/pull or abandonment and intimacy in relationships when this disorder is present. I found the article here: http://gettinbetter.com/casanova.html
my ex was an n, and i only started to understand that relationship after i came here to deal with the devastation of the spath.