By | December 3, 2011 99 Comments

Pedophile’s wives can be the last to know

Almost seven years ago, Darlene Ellison’s life was turned upside-down when her husband was arrested as an “inner circle” member of NAMBLA—the North American Man-Boy Love Association. She had no idea what he was doing.

Read How Dorothy Sandusky could have been duped, on

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Wikipedia seems to have fumbled this one. Their page on NAMBLA completely fails to mention this major 2005 bust.

This dentist guy Darlene was married to was not named Ellison. He was Phillip Todd Calvin, which the article didn’t tell us. They called him the “Singing Dentist of Lakewood.” There’s more information in this article called Picking Up the Pieces:

FOR PHILLIP TODD CALVIN, NO DAY WOULD begin as well as February 12, 2005, did. And how could it? He was known as the Singing Dentist of Lakewood because he belonged to the Dallas Symphony Chorus and was known to sing to his patients. He earned as much as $250,000 a year, affording him a spacious two-story home, a white Mercedes, a Beechcraft Bonanza single-engine plane, frequent international vacations, and, on this morning, a hotel room in San Diego with the promise of a Valentine’s Day trip to Mexico where he’d have sex with young boys.

(Oh, no, not another doctor in a Bonanza…)

Anyway, while I’m sure Darlene Ellison was naive enough about what her own husband was doing, that’s not true of every spouse. Sometimes a spouse doesn’t just shut their eyes to what’s going on, but is an active participant in the abuse. By all accounts, Coach Bernie Fine’s wife at Syracuse for instance was screwing some of those same kids herself! A right pair they are!


This post brings up all kinds of stupid logic.

Women/mothers who are more focused on THEIR victimhood than that of their children’s. Me ME ME Victimhood and absent anguish for their kids.

Women/mothers who say they would DIE for their kids BUT refused to believe them when the kids told her dad was having sex with them and they wanted her to make it stop. No surprise that she didn’t.

The PASS that we give wives and the Other Woman b/c they were LOVEbombed. But we Don’t give misbehaving KIDS a pass for being LOVEbombed or abused. No. Those kids are accused of being seductive; they are BLAMED. Vulnerable kids blamed but wives/moms/other women who KNOW THE MAN IS MARRIED are “understood and forgiven.”

Do I think it possible that wives/moms are deceived by spaths. HELL yes. Over stime, we KNOW something is wrong but WHAT is wrong can be very hard to puzzle out. The whole point of spath deception is that truth is mixed with lies. BUT marriage troubles PLUS kids who report sex abuse? THAT is MORE than connecting dots, that’s a IRON BAR dropped on the head WAKE UP.

Yes, I admit it. I’m a freaking nutcase. I have an extremely hard time standing up for myself but if my spath husband touched my child, ya’ll know I believe that justice is rare… I would FRY for my kid.


Redwald, if you think an article on wiki is not complete or not giving all the facts, you can always add/edit what you think is wrong. It’s not wikipedia itself that writes an article, but volunteering people. You don’t even need to register to edit or create an article.


Thanks, darwinsmom. I thought about that, but I’d like to assemble some facts first about the raid as a whole.

Ox Drover

Dear Redwald,

Good to see you back!

Yes, I saw that on coach Fine’s wife, and commented about it earlier. That makes my SKIN CRAWL that that woman was more concerned with the fact that her husband wanted young boys instead of HER. Then her having sex with that young man herself, but she did wait until he turned 18!!!! PUKE! I’m glad that she was outed by the taped phone conversation.

I am also disgusted that so many of these pedophiles have slipped under the prosecution wire by “statute of limitations” having expired! Hopefully Fine and Sandusky won’t slip under them all.

What also makes me sick is Panero’s and the school’s cover up, and the SAINTHOOD of “JoePa” and the idolizing of football by the public.

They look at all the “good” Joe has done and Sandusky has done, and it is like saying “he was such a good guy when he wasn’t raping children.” OMG!!!!!

Of course you know how I have a particular hatred for child molesters AND THOSE WHO ENABLE THEM….so I would personally have crucifixes lined up on both sides of the end zone of the next football game and they could use them for goal posts, and they got an extra point if they hit Sandusky or Fine in the crotch with the kick!

There are those women who know “something” is off with their marriage but maybe don’t know WHAT is off. I firmly believe that Charles “jackie” Walls III’s ( who was Arkansas’s and probably one of THE most prolific child molesters in the US with over 1,500 separate children as victims over a 20 year period of time,) wife did NOT know he was a pedophile. I knew him and went to church with her, knew Jackie’s father and mother, knew his children, knew him. I knew and most people in town knew he was an “arsehole” and did not like him much, but NEVER EVEN THOUGHT he could be a pedophile. Never in a million years. In retrospect, all 4 of the convicted pedophiles I have known fairly closely, 3 of them were “arseholes” and the 4th one showed his “arseholeness” after his conviction, but not prior (at least where I could see it) I think probably all 4 were wife/female abusers at least emotionally, only 1 woman of the 3 wives stayed with her husband AFTER his conviction and release from prison.

According to the research done on convicted FIRST TIME offenders, using poloygraphs, the AVERAGE number of victims is between 110 and 300 BEFORE the FIRST CONVICTION on pedophiles. If that won’t CURL YER HAIR I DON’T KNOW WHAT WILL.


Pedophiles’ wives CHOOSE to be the last to know. They pretend to not know. Healthy women do not marry pedophiles. These guys have icky energy and piss poor boundaries. They give off a million signals that they prefer kids and don’t like adult women. Inappropriate touching is unfortunately commonly excused in society. If someone is an inappropriate toucher, stay away. Sexual or inappropriate jokes about children are another common clue. Who would want to live with that? Yet women marry these creeps.

I have worked as a sexual abuse counselor, sat in support groups and heard and read thousands of stories. IN EVERY CASE the wife knew. She made a choice. Not every one of them participated in the abuse, though some even did that. But there is simply no way to not know your husband is a sexual deviant.

I had a boyfriend who asked me to shave my pubic hair. I looked him in the eye and said, “Why, do you like sex with children?” This spun him into his own sexual abuse memories. Yet thousands of women these days will quietly do the shaving, believing it’s cool and sexy. They’re the type of compliant fools, who have just given a man permission to do whatever he likes. It’s a test of both sexual boundaries, and his own ability to dominate a passive subject.

A great way to tell if a man is disgusted by adult women: He doesn’t like to perform oral sex on you. I’ve found that men who aren’t eager to do this, are abusive in some other way. A healthy man LOVES all parts of a woman. Hating to give head doesn’t necessarily mean he’s a pedo, but it’s 100% a warning sign of a sexually unhealthy man.

There is ALWAYS a way to tell, if you’re bothering to pay attention. Women who marry abusers of any type, had a million clues before the marriage. Always.


Well I have known a few pedophiles wives and my experience has been that they ignore the facts or when confronted blame the victims and brand them as liars. even seen family’s where the children were molesting each other and the adults deny it and cover it up.I saw this not only when I worked in the foster care system, but even in my own family. I have never been able to figure it out. Anyone have any ideas what the psychology is behind the denial and blame?

Allergic to Spandex

Rape victims of any age are seen by society as either weak, or having actually invited the assault (the “she must have wanted it if she was out drinking/wearing a miniskirt/outside her home without a burqa” deal) — when we’re not seen as flat-out liars, the way Sandusky’s attorney has tried to paint some of the kids in the case. We make nice easy targets.


Right on, Alpha!!!!!!!!


There are some good comments on this thread, urging us to look deeper than the often misleading headlines. To add one more perspective, we could also examine the corollory headline:

“Pedophile’s HUSBANDS can be the last to know”

If anyone doubts this, please look at bloggert’s website: (link is on the left of this page on the blogroll). Hopefully it won’t be too long before we stop assuming that the words “pedophile” or “rapist” are one particular gender (for either the perpetrator OR the victims).

I agree with much of Alpha’s post: in my trauma group ALMOST every case where a child was abused by a male relative happened with either the knowledge or encouragement of their mother. There were legitimate cases where the mother DIDN’T know, but in the majority of cases they did &/or they blamed/shamed/shunned/further abused the adult child for finally speaking the truth. However, I also notice that when those women speak about their own abuse, they rarely acknowledge the abuse their male siblings experienced. Male children are also abused, but we rarely discuss this. Furthermore, children who were groomed to be abusers are equally victims of abuse, something we rarely acknowledge.

However…, in the case of men who don’t want to perform oral sex (a discussion topic that frankly makes me uncomfortable but since we’re discussing it) we once more need to look deeper. Many if not most young boys (and young girls) who are sexually abused by their mothers are initially groomed to start out by giving/receiving oral sex. Often the same is true of girls abused by fathers. It is more than understandable that those children would grow into adults who would be triggered by this.

So before we start condemning people for their sexual dislikes we should stop and ask ourselves if they may be abuse survivors. Many female victims of childhood SA also dislike oral sex for the exact same reasons. It is a very long way from someone not being comfortable with oral sex to being a pedophile, and it is important for us to ask questions before jumping to conclusions in this regard.

Ox Drover

There are a lot of “reasons” people like or dislike one sexual practice or another, so I don’t think that there is a “blanket” cause or effect in people’s preference or dislike for oral sex or “missionary” position sex.

Certainly not all children who are abused become abusers, though some do. Some people who were never abused as children ALSO become abusers as teenagers or adults.

Small children engage in sexual play and touching in what I think is probably a normal curiosity phase, which might now be classified as “sexual assault” or “abuse” if this were discovered.

Frankly, when I was about five, two friends and I played a game of “doctor” which was actually “you show me yours, and I’ll show you mine” and my friend and her little brother pulled down their pants and I pulled down mine and we looked. I really dont’ think this event scarred me for life. LOL Since I had no siblings I had never seen any other person naked or with their pants down and I was quite curious what other people’s bodies looked like.

Sex was not a subject talked about in our family, even in a reproductive sense. I knew from an early age that babies were made in a woman’s belly, but I had NO idea how they started to grow or that a sexual act of any kind more than Kissing and hugging was even possible, much less actually done. Believe it or not I was 13 when I was informed very matter of factly that human babies were “made the same way cows and horses” were made. END of the conversation. No Q & A period.

On the other hand, I worked with a man-sized and physically mature 12 year old boy in an inpatient facility who had had full on sexual intercourse with a three very young children, of both sexes, and I doubt that this experience was healthy for those young children (ages 5-8).

Our children in the US mature physically at an earlier rate many times than in the past due to a better nutrition, so that a child may reach puberty pretty early. Other kids may be slower in reaching maturity even though given adequate nutrition.

In doing sports physicals and examining many youngsters of both sexes I have seen that some 12 and 13 year old girls and boys are completely physically mature and quite capable of physically mature sexual intercourse….probably complete with the hormonal urges to do so even at that young age, if not the mental maturity to engage in sexual intercourse in our society.

Kids reaching physical maturity at an age in which we as a society forbid them to engage in activities that their hormones are encouraging them to do so, and then socially repressing their urges until the magical age of X Y or Z, can only I think pushy this activity into the dark realms of them being vulnerable to pedophiles.

I just read an article yesterday about how rampant abuse is among child actors whose parents and other handlers “hush up” the abuse to keep the money flowing. I don’t doubt this at all.

When a young person is vulnerable to a mentor, or a parent, and an adult knows about this abuse and does not say anything, or even worse, hushes it up, like the Penn State scandal and many others, I cry for these children, and the pain that is brought into their lives to satisfy the perverted lusts of some adult. I also am enraged that any adult would knowingly cover up such a thing “for the greater good of the football team.” Or any other “greater good.”

sharing the journey

Four years ago my kind, loving husband of twenty two years dropped his mask and revealed himself as having paedophile and incest fantasies regarding our two daughters and son.

It was a sudden attack in which he destabilised me with abuse and then raped me repeatedly calling me by my children’s names and also as food.

Knowing that he had revealed too much he tried to convince me to commit suicide. Running on Shock, fear and adrenaline I drove him out of my home and ran for help from the authorities.

Finding it difficult at the time to articulate my horror but focused on the importance of his revelations my assigned psychiatrist (yes I came under the suspicion of being psychotic) enlisted social services and the child protection to investigate. After a short enquiry they dropped the case as there was nothing on him. I pointed out that ”“that doesn’t mean anything and that it only means he hasn’t been caught. They agreed. End of story.

Traumatised and suffering from PTSD I refused point blank to allow my youngest who was then only nine to stay over with him for a year. Social services then contacted me to tell me that I HAVE to let her stay with her dad at least once a week. Since then I have allowed it to happen but I lie every three months when I send him an email saying that child protection are still watching her and that she has had the all clear.

After I got rid of him the smear campaign and stalking started. I was in a really bad place mentally as I had just had the biggest fight of my life with true evil. I was suddenly on my own and I could barely keep my head up with the battering I took. I was struggling financially to take care of my children and I and was hyper alert to danger from him.

Under severe stress I protected my kids every way possible that I could think of. The system let me down and I suffer every day with flashbacks. My life blew up in my face and every memory that I have is corrupted when I think of him with my children.

Only now am I getting taken seriously about the rape and abuse and that is because it took this length of time to see that his behaviour is abnormal. No one wanted to know and I carried this burden by myself.

For the last six months since turning fifty I have been making myself ill worrying about who is going to protect them if I die. I had a terrible conflict inside. If I tell my two oldest children what happened it could harm them. If I don’t tell them and I am not here there P dad could do what he wanted with them and they wouldn’t know what hit them. I chose to tell them. Now at last all three are safe, as the two oldest have promised to carry on my fight and take care of my youngest if anything happens to me.

Surprisingly they took it well. It explained all my bizarre behaviour back then. Not letting my youngest stay with him. My no contact policy etc

So Alpha—sorry to burst your self righteous bubble—but we all don’t choose this. I would die for my children. This man is good. He wears his mask well and I never suspected a thing. Everyone, including myself bought into his image as the solid family man and provider.

I hope my story helps others like myself who were blindsided by a psychopath and found it difficult to get believed—even when there were children at risk.


Ox Drover

Thank you, little white horse, your story is horrible, but I know is true, not only for you, but for other women and children who have lived this HORRIBLE NIGHT MARE OF ABUSE… Thank you so much for sharing this story.

sharing the journey

Thanks Ox Drover.

What keeps me sane is that he worked out the fantasies on me. It could have been my children coming to me telling me that he abused them. As it stands–they are all safe and well adjusted.

Thank God



Seems bizarre for me to write this but it’s true: you are one of the lucky ones. You found out from HIM, not from your kids after they endured years of abuse. AND your kids are also lucky b/c YOU their mom BELIEVED what you learned and protected them. Stuns me when women try to find explanations instead of protecting the kids FIRST. As you learned, this is BIG time crazy making drama. As the child of a pedophile, it’s really hard to live knowing what happened was no big deal b/c somehow I am so defective that only good or pretty kids deserve to be saved. I can’t seem to get that truth erased. But what I can say is that I am also a mom that would die for my kid and would have fried for her too. I know better than to trust legal justice when dealing with pedos.

Bless you, I am SOOO happy for your kids to have you as their mom.


Littlewhitehorse ~

Thank you for sharing your story, I’m sure it was not easy for you to do.

And as Katy said, bless you indeed for being a protector of your precious children.

Ox Drover

You know, even though they are protected from the physical sexual predation from the psychopathic pedophile, it still must be hurtful to be the CHILD OF A PSYCHOPATH….because all of us want a parent that is loving and that we can look up to and respect.

While my P sperm donor was a first class violent psychopath and my beloved step father was a wonderful man, still, I wanted to get to know my “father” and to love and respect him. I was so vulnerable and he used that vulnerability to use and abuse me and it left scars on my psyche forever that I have worked hard to heal, and though I have “healed” them, I still remember that longing to love my “father” and the pain in finding out he was what he was—a psychopath, evil, an abuser, a user, and heartless. Little white horse, I am so glad though that your kids at least have ONE good parent, it is so important. My step father was my “one good parent” and I thank God every day for that wonderful, kind, caring and loving man that He sent into my life.


thanks for sharing that story. I agree that not all of us knew we were with a pedophile. I didn’t connect all the dots until after I left him. How could I imagine what lay behind that mask? Even today, it’s surreal.

sharing the journey

Oh Katydid

Your not defective–he is and it is a big deal. I am an adult and it nearly knocked me into asylum. When it is a threat to your child you don’t look for prettiness or goodness.

When you see your own child is that how you judge their salvagability. NO

Katydid–If you were mine–I would have believed you instantly just as you would do yours. Your horrific experience will provide protection for your child.

Take care–but I don’t think that I did anything that you wouldn’t do too under the same circumstances. Thats why I posted. For the mums like you.

And yes–through the fog of PTSD–I do recognise that I am one of the lucky ones.


sharing the journey


That’s what I meant about the conflict I had. Tell the kids what he is really like and harm their image of him or keep quiet and say nothing and let them be unprotected if anything happened to me

As I said–I chose to tell them and it worked out good. I have also told them that I would arrange counselling if they needed it. But so far they seem fine and have adjusted to the news.

Thank you all of you for listening and giving me support. It has been a hard journey as it is a very isolating experience.



Since every pedophile is a psychopath, it’s just a matter of differences how they choose to live their pathology isn’t it. I do understand the desire to want to give LOVE and discovering there is no one to give it to.

As sad and sorry I am for you to have endured your birth family, you are also one of the lucky ones too. You had the love from your step father, your good husband, and your step son. Three generations of love. It doesn’t change the longing you had to love your birth father, or the heart ache from your sons, but at least you have the experience of knowing love.

I don’t know what I’d do at my age if I ever were loved by anyone. That’s prolly what made me such an easy target for my spath, b/c I wanted it to be real, and I worked for years trying to fix something that was NEVER going to be. But I do not blame myself for wanting love, that does not make me needy, it makes me NORMAL.

And what also makes me normal is that I can appreciate and feel a shared joy that others have someone to love them… for the simple reasoning that it’s the way things SHOULD be and makes me feel SOME things are right with the world!

Ox Drover

Dear Little White Horse,

I recognize your situation of the “to tell or not to tell” with your kids. TRUTH CAN BE PAINFUL, especially when you (at any age) have to recognize that a person whom you have loved and idolized and looked up to is shown to be a PERVERT, an EVIL person….no matter how old you are or how young.

It was very painful to recognize that my P sperm donor was EVIL, and it was just as painful to recognize 40 years later that my egg donor was without love for me. I’m not sure she would register as a psychopath per se, but she has no love or concern for me, only a desire to control. Heck I was over 60 years old when I found out and it still to some extent haunts me though I have come to accept it.

They may not be “bonded” to us, but WE ARE BONDED TO THEM so severing that bond is like pulling out your own intestines. It hurts. It is like having surgery with a rusty butcher knife to take out the cancerous parts of our souls that will kill us if we don’t recognize and take them out. Denial allows them to continue to grow inside us and to eventually over take us completely.

I think your decision was wise, Little Horse, but I know that your children still have a “hard row to hoe” and even though they may not realize it, they may still need some counseling. (((hugs))) for you and them as well. Also my prayers.

Ox Drover

Dear Katy,

I do treasure the friendships I’ve had in the past, even the friendship I had with my Now-X “best girlfriend” that died last January…we had 30 years of good times, and I’m sorry it didn’t last but I can remember those good times, and though my husband is gone, I can remember the good times that we had too….and the times I had great times with my young sons, even Patrick, are precious memories and I can laugh about the funny things they did as little kids. I’m sorry that the grown men they became are not the kind of men I would want for a friend….but the joy that they gave me as small children is always going to be there….it just isn’t connected to the men they are TODAY.

Remember the joy you had from your daughter when she was young, not the person, the adult, she is today. Remember the friendships you had even when you were a child. Those friendships, that love between you and others is not GONE as long as it is in your memory.

In the meantime, get out and find new connections, volunteer at a shelter, or a library or a hospital and make new friends and associations….I realize that I will probably never attract the kind of man I would be interested in as a romantic relationship, but that isn’t going to put me into a spin cycle of loneliness, I am going to foster the relationships that I do have and make new friends as well as get out and ENJOY life. Not every new friend will become a close friend, or a life long one, but I will enjoy the good times with people who are responsible and caring, and to hell with the others that I come across who are nasty or spathy!


I do paint a bleak pic of myself sometimes don’t I?! Facing my truths sometimes seems like I forget the good stuff in my life.

Yes, I do volunteer. Always have. At the library and the museum. And I love history and countryside walks so I belong to those groups. I play in instrument so we have a little quartet groups and it gets busy this time of year! Just b/c I don’t have “love” doesn’t mean I don’t have a wonderful life. I do. There is much joy and great fun to be had sharing with even purely social friends. Fri we are going to have foot baths and reflexology massages, then dim sum lunch. Sat is a German Market festival with music/plays/and strudel and hot spiced cider.

The LONLIEST time of my life was when I lived with my birth family and it was BITTERLY horribly lonely when I lived with my husband. Even though I am not loved, I am not lonely anymore and the fact is I keep finding joy and good people to share it with.

Katy, who has found happiness is possible even when unloved.

Ox Drover

Katy, I find it “offensive” that you say that you are “unloved”!!!! You may not have a romantic partner in life, but that doesn’t mean you are UN-LOVED! BOINK!!!! LOL Even if you are the ONLY person in the world who loves you, then you ARE LOVED! Now go and write 500 times and turn in before recess, “I am LOVED, I love myself!” 🙂


Katy diddles. I luv ya ~!
I dont have a partner either, I fantazies about a romantic relationship, but in my fantasy’s i am about 36 and in my prime…Then my tired old bones scream ‘ reality check ‘..yap life has kinda passed me by in the romantic department..So I start counting my blessings and am happy I have what I have.
From what you describe your a social person that get’s out and about and does things, hey I just hide in the woods and wait for my fantasy cowboy to come find me, wish somebody would tell him he is lost ~!


If i were truthful, I would not say that about myself at all. And that kind of love is not meaningful to me in the sense of reciprocal love. I am F*d, but no, not loved. It’s a fallacy to say it’s any kind of replacement to the love that others enjoy. But my point was we don’t have to have love to have joy. and with joy, there is much happiness and much quality to life.



Ox Drover

Katy, don’t quite understand your posts above “I am F*d, but no, not loved.” and “It’s a fallacy to say it’s any kind of replacement to the love that others enjoy.” Maybe we are just “playing semantics”


am momentarily struggling with my truth. Am trying to remember that life has more to offer than love and to take my comfort in the ability to experience joy. I am glad for others to have the kind of love that I have never known.

But take it from someone who has NEVER had someone love them: while “loving myself, God Loves me, Jesus loves me, cyber psuedo named people love me, etc.” is all okay, it is NOT the same nor a substitute or a replacement for the human need to physically connect to another who loves, whether it’s a child’s hug, or a step fathers smile, or a beloved’s embrace. and that dif is esp poignant at certain moments of the year.


Katy, your daughter loved you during her childhood, right?
And pets love us.

You aren’t alone. There are many people who finally realize that they were never loved. And then there are those who never realize it. Or else they choose not to know it.

Real love is scarce, Katy. It’s only the media that makes it seem like holidays are so joyous for everyone. They aren’t.

That’s why the spath is trying to contact me. I was supposed to commit suicide and he’s hoping he can take me there for the holiday season.


No, daughter did not love me during her childhood. And I was too stupid to notice b/c when you have never been loved, you don’t think it abnormal until someone points it out to you. And no, pets don’t really “love” us. that’s anthropomorphism. Pets are dependent. I am the alpha. She submits. She does not love. I LOVE her. Easy care dog, soft fur, nice and warm on these cold nights.

I know I am not the only one who is unloved. But that’s not a comforting thought either. It’s just the way things are. I am merely acknowledging it’s hard and not pretending it’s not. Like everyone else, I’ll get through it. And HEY, it’s a whole lot better than when I was living with my husband! No more “accidents” where I closely missed being killed, and no more encouragement to commit suicide. So sim to your spath..


Katydid: My puppies love me and I them, no two ways about it! You take your logic and science elsewhere! Besides, you are loved as well! I hope… 🙁 Well, everybody here loves you! ^_^

sharing the journey


Before my experience with the p I felt loving and loved. But to deal with the last 4 years I had to turn my heart to stone.

But now that the danger is past a bit I have to find a way back to that person I was.

I would give anything right now to experience even just a little bit of joy.

I am glad I posted as I have been reading Lovefraud for the last 4 years and I see hope for my own recovery. It is now time for me to start healing.

And our pets do love us and it is unconditional–I can say anything to my dog and he just looks at me with such love. I now have to learn to let it in again.

Been burned in the love department is horrible–especially when you thought it was real and that you would be together forever.

But there was a time when I was in tune with real love–and I hope that comes back.



you are so wrong. Pets love us. Don’t ever think otherwise.
You must really have a hard time understanding love, because pets love us, Katy, many of them will die for their owners and for their own offspring. call it what you will, but it is love. They aren’t genetically linked to us, that’s what makes them superior.

I don’t know about your daughter. maybe she was not capable. Genes are hard to overcome. We have to work on our Karma, I guess.

sharing the journey


I have been reading your posts it feels like since forever. I have much in common with your experience with your P. I read somewhere that you were an INTP on the Myers Briggs. I am an INFP.




Our animals can absolutely love us. I’ve had cats for nearly 45 years, and I have numerous stories of the bond and love I’ve shared with my cats. My remaining cat, Destructo, is like a daughter. She was born on my bed 18-1/2 years ago, and I honestly don’t think she could live without me. I can’t say my snakes “love” me, but I have seen evidence of at very least a trust and familiarity, and I’ve seen a few instances that could not be described as anything other than affection or bonding. I can see how people anthropomorphize snakes, but not cats. I think even when people anthropomorphize, it has to do with projecting the love that is inside of them, which is still a form of love.

I think that sometimes what we feel coming back from others (people or animals) is often a projection of our own mental state – either a lack or abundance of love. I have noticed for myself that if I extend caring toward someone, it will often come back to me, even if I sometimes have to make the effort.

Ox Drover


To FEEL “unloved” or that you have never had “love” must be a very lonely perception. I can think of times in my life when I felt friendless, alone, etc. unloved, etc. like after my husband died, but I think it was more the PERCEPTION and the FEELING that no one cared, or that I was “unloved” than an actual reality.

What is “love” anyway? It is more than just a squishy feeling, I think…it is an ACTION VERB, of people caring for other people, not just that romantic “love” that the media portrays. A friend is “love” and a pet is “love” and yes, they respond to us like the alpha in a pack, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t LOVE. It is more than just instinct.

Love can also be SELF LOVE, self caring. In fact, I think too many people look for “love” outside themselves because they don’t have that self love and because of that feel empty. Love in our lives doesn’t just depend either on those that love us, but on those that WE love as well. So, Katy, my dear, get out and LOVE SOMEONE ELSE….and LOVE KATY! God bless.

sharing the journey


In the aftermath of my battle with Evil I felt I had lost everything I loved.

In reality I only lost him and his side of the family in which case I was never really that close to anyway.

I kept everything else including my kids.

In thinking–the only real profound love I lost was for myself and my innocence. I was happy when I loved myself. Oxy’s right.

My frame of mind at this point in recovery is that to risk love is to risk loss.

That makes me scared.

My son has a t shirt that says on the front in bold letters FREE HUGS. He is very reserved–but he has found a way to get that human connection that we all need without saying a word.

In my mind–Genius.

Love and peace

Ox Drover


You know I have been reading several books about the IMPORTANCE OF TOUCH in our lives.

Oxytocin is a hormone/chemical that is released by several things, and one of those things is TOUCH on our skin.

Baby animals of various kinds will die without touch, and it has been proven that even baby HUMANS will “fail to thrive” and/or die without cuddling and TOUCH….there are lots of ways that we can have TOUCH and one of them is actually self stroking or petting or being petted by animals (and yes, animals DO “pet” us as well! My son’s cat is a perfect example of that!) Here lately the cat has her “nose out of joint” because my son brought home a stray dog that now sleeps with him, and the cat, who formerly slept with him and was “his” cat now feels “deprived” so she comes to me and “pets” me and rubs up on me which she did not do before, in fact, she actually didn’t like me much at all, but now, she has decided that being petted is more important than being snooty! LOL

Last night after my son had gone to bed (the cat chooses not to sleep with him now that the dog does) she climbed up in my lap and I was petting on her, and it felt so good, so calming for us both I think. She is the absolute cleanest cat I’ve ever known, never even one particle of dust in HER HAIR! LOL And while I realize that she is very narcissistic (aren’t ALL CATS? LOL) None the less, I enjoyed stroking her and being stroked BY her. I “felt loved” as it were.

Hugs and association with living things, being touched and touching, and interaction with others is important to human health. I think that is one reason that prisoners dread “solitary confinement” so much, it is the ULTIMATE punishment. Though my Psychopathic son Patrick says he actually LIKES it, I think he lies…she sure loves to have an “audience” for his posturing and I can’t imagine that without an audience that he is satisfied very much. He seems to be like the trolls that came through here the other day. HE WANTS ATTENTION. To be noticed.

sharing the journey


You are so right about animal touch and cats are amazing. I have two. One is like yours who is my son’s or else it has adopted him and is very moody to touch unless she feels like it.

The other is still a kitten and is very affectionate.

My ex hated cats and he had no valid reason for it–but as soon as I got him out I got Tinky and just lately Millie.

I have been reading lovefraud for a long time tying to peice all the puzzle of what happened to me. But I am no wiser in spotting trolls. I don’t know why–perhaps the PTSD.

In saying that–when I first came in a state of shock I could see them everywhere including in Lovefraud. But thankfully that has calmed down.

This is the first post that I have felt compelled to respond to–only because it hits so near to my home. I feel myself breaking out of isolation a wee bit–but still scared.

I have learned loads but it doesn’t seem to stick in my memory.

I sometimes think that I have brain damage–yet i can clearly digest what is being said.

Anyway–things can only get better.

Love and Peace

Ox Drover


I think the MOST IMPORTANT THING WE LOSE is our TRUST IN OURSELVES to keep ourselves safe. BUT we can reclaim this trust in ourselves.

Just as if you were let down by a friend some way, and the friend truly apologized and wanted to fix the relationship you would forgive them, (get the bitterness out of your heart) and then you would SLOWLY learn to trust that person again. We have to FORGIVE ourselves for letting ourselves down and not keeping us safe. We didn’t purposely set out to hurt ourselves and our remorse is sincere, so we must FORGIVE ourselves and tell ourselves that we will work really hard to keep ourselves safe in the future.

We have a lot to learn, we need to learn to set boundaries and to enforce them in the kind of behavior we will “tolerate” from others. That was a biggie for me. I was so upset if I had to enforce a boundary, upset and anxious that I might hurt someone’s feelings. Well, MY feelings were upset when people stole from me, so why should I “worry” about hurting their feelings by saying STOP STEALING FROM ME? LOL Truly, I felt that way, afraid I would hurt THEIR feelings by confronting them about stealing!

I still tend to be too much along the line of making excuses for bad behavior in others, for giving someone a “pass” for acting badly by saying “well, they were tired” or something else. Now, I try to stay around people who are uplifting, kind, caring, and sweet. For those people who DO act badly, I stand up, and walk away. Sometimes it is hard, but you know, in the end, I am learning to trust myself not to get sucked in DEEPLY by people who behave badly. They may suck me in for a little while, but as SOON as the RED FLAGS show themselves, I “take notice” of those flags and HONOR THEM….and myself.

You will learn to trust yourself again! Keep on working at it. Healing is a process, a journey, not a destination. (((hugs)))

sharing the journey

That’s exactly it–Trust in myself and the fact that my bounderies were smashed and I felt helpless to protect me.

I too tend to avoid anyone that I think is not right whereas at one time I would have been fine interacting as I had very secure bounderies after healing from a previous abusive environment.

But rape has done something to me that sometimes I doubt I will ever recover from. Also the crazymaking and confusion. It was a world were good was bad and bad was good.


Yes it is a journey and a process. If only I could rid myself of the panic and anxiety disorder and disasociation induced by anxiety.

Peace and Love

Ox Drover

Dear Littlewhitehorse,

If you are a victim of rape, then I strongly suggest that you receive some professional counseling…fortunately there are some groups available to help rape victims that might not be available for other victims, please seek out the available resources in your area.

As a former victim of rape myself, I realize that I should have had counseling back in those days (I was 18 and I’m 65 now) instead of counseling I had SHAME and I was asked by a police officer if I had been raped (I had been badly beaten) and I said “no” because I felt so much shame. Rape is NOT about “sex” it is about CONTROL and shaming the victim in the worst possible way through control of their most intimate feelings and of their body.

You said you “doubt …will ever recover from”–I know it feels like that sometimes, but having a positive attitude, of I WILL OVER COME THIS, will help..the “self talk”‘we do to ourselves is important that we BELIEVE we can recover. Believing we can recover is I think at least HALF THE BATTLE! In fact, I was reading a research report the other day about how that belief in our selves does make a big difference. A measurable difference.

Knowledge IS power, Littlehorse, so keep on reading and learning and seek out what help is available in your area, call a domestic violence hot line, or a rape crisis hot line, or where ever you can get some information on what is available to you. God bless.

sharing the journey

Thanks Oxdrover but it happened four years ago and I see a psychologist fortnightly for it.

Funny enough I never felt shame. Too much of a feminist for that but I think if I would have been younger and more naive I would have.

You are right about my thinking that is why I get CBT==got to just keep plodding until I am well.

God bless you too.

Peace and Love


I too sometimes think I have brain damage. Likely that is what I am processing now. How to undo a lifetime of cruelty when what was pronounced about me is verified as true over and over, that people who are physically in my life only pretend to care about me out of politeness or duty?

At this time of year, I am facing my worst rejection ever, I must process an in-my-face-rejection from the one person I sacrificed and endured the spath for, the one I poured my love and devotion and support into. My reward for giving such love is complete and utter contempt.

People who evoke karma: Are you saying I deserve to be unloved? Christians say the same thing, that God blesses the deserving. That makes NO sense to me b/c I watch people FLOCK to my husband and they LOVE and adore him, yet he’s is fully spathso why would an spath deserve love while someone who gives love does not? (I TRIED to be wrong about him being spath but the killing and harming w/o conscience was too difficult to dismiss.).

To those who think I am unloved b/c I have not given love… that’s not true. I give and share and care without expectation and have been that way my whole life, that’s why it took me so long to notice there was no reciprocity. And to say that if I love myself, I won’t have that desire to be loved by others…that’s like saying if I hug myself enough or talk to myself enough, then I will have satisifed my need to connect to other people. No. Loving myself is one kind of love, just as loving a child is another, loving my sweet doggie is another, loving a spouse is another, loving chocolate or coffee is another…. they are NOT substitutes, they are DIFFERENT. And as such, loving myself does not replace that desire for reciprocal appreciation, affection, attention, awareness, etc.

I will process. I will look for answers. I will stop lying to myself and pretending it doesn’t matter. B/c it does-b/c the only people love doesn’t matter to… is an spath. And b/c it is impossible to heal a pain which I pretend doesn’t exist.


I’m glad you are here and posting. It may take a while but you CAN heal. Since you are an INFP, you have a rich emotional life and feel deeply. The trauma must have been overwhelming. It speaks to your commitment as a mother, that you were glad to experience that so that your children didn’t have to.

What I’ve learned here on LF is that talking about what you are feeling and being validated by others helps TREMENDOUSLY toward healing. I had never experienced it before and I feel it is nothing short of miraculous.

Talk, let it out. We will listen and understand.

sharing the journey


I too believe that only a fully intimate relationship will make me happy. I can’t settle for anything less.

But in my experience–when you are intimate with yourself and loving what you find, warts and all-you will find it easier to be intimitate with others without giving and giving.

In this way you don’t give more than you can afford and you know yourself well enough and are realistic about people and what they can give or do for you.

I too have a generous nature–but I have learned through experience to be strategic rather than willy nilly with my generosity in order to not be taken advantage of.

Cos you will.

But when you are in charge giving becomes pleasurable in stead of painful.

Love comes in many forms and it takes a practised eye to see it. And then it all becomes a personal definition of what you think love is.

From your post–I get the impression that you would love to be in a loving. intimate and healthy relationship and I think that all of us at one point would like this. It’s normal and healthy to feel this way.

But I could be so wrong here and I hesitate but I will give it a go–you sound very depressed and If you are it could block your path to getting an intimate relationship.

I do hope I haven’t overstepped the mark and that I am a newbie so I don’t know you very well.

My thoughts are with you

Peace and love

Ox Drover


((((Katy)))) I hear the raw oozing pain in your posts, and from your previous posts I know the rejection you feel from your daughter is very painful for you. You know I can relate to that, both from a standpoint of my psychopathic son Patrick, and my other biological son C who is not a psychopath but who is also not the loving kind and honest man I wish he was. He has also betrayed me, actively betrayed when you consider that he knew that the Trojan Horse psychopath, my egg donor, his wife, and my P son Patrick were all out to run me out of my home (at the very least) Of course this back fired on him when his wife and the Trojan Horse tried to kill him—and he found out his P-brother knew that C’s wife and the Trojan Horse were having an affair! So son C “got what he had given”—betrayal from the ones that he knew were betraying me and did nothing to stop.

That is what happens when we associate with people who are not honorable with others, they are not honorable with us. C has done this kind of thing repeatedly, he is a very bad judge of people and very vulnerable to “love bombing” from psychopaths. He isn’t I don’t think a “psychopath” but that doesn’t mean he is the kind of person I want to trust, or be “close to.” Some people are able to have a “distant” relationship with a relative and maintain their emotional distance–maybe only seeing them for a holiday mean and playing “let’s pretend we’re a nice normal family.” I am not emotionally able to do this so I don’t have that kind of superficial relationship. Some people can have “casual, no strings” sex as well, but I am NOT able to do this, so I don’t.

I know that holidays are emotional “mine fields” for many of us, because we are sad because our FANTASY of a celebration with family that loves us is not a reality…but you know, Katy, the media-hype of this “wonderful Norman Rockwellian Christmas” I think is more marketing ploy than anything else. (((hugs))))

sharing the journey

Hi Skylar.

Yep–those damn feelings. Thanks for replying–I just love reading your posts. Such innocence and humour–I don’t know how you do it.

You are so smart and kind and a joy to read.

Peace and love

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