By | July 24, 2009

Please do not engage abusers

Yesterday, Lovefraud had an intruder. I saw this guy’s first couple of posts, which struck me as odd, but not necessarily offensive. I decided to keep an eye on him.

Before long, however, several longtime Lovefraud contributors began attacking this individual. I thought the attacks were unwarranted.

We have had occasions in the past when people started accusing newcomers of being sociopaths. I think this is a very dangerous thing to do based on a few posts that may sound different from what we generally see here.

Meaning is missing

Experts have found that 65 percent to 90 percent of the meaning in human communication comes from nonverbal cues—tone of voice, gestures, posture. That means when the primary form of communication is via words on a computer monitor, 65 percent to 90 percent of the meaning is missing.

So how can we be sure of a person’s intentions? Not everyone is an expressive writer—some people may be stiff and formal. And not everyone may speak (and write) English as a first language.

Furthermore, is not a closed, invitation-only forum. It is open to the public, so it is quite possible that we have readers who are not victims, or former victims, of sociopaths. People who have been lucky enough not to have experienced the assault of a sociopath have a very different perspective from those of us who have been there. They may wonder, in writing, what all the bellyaching is about. That doesn’t mean they are sociopaths.

We also may have people who jump into a conversation without much of an introduction. There is no prerequisite that people tell their stories before participating in the Lovefraud Blog. Someone may just want to make an observation or pose a question. The post may sound different from what we generally see. That doesn’t make him or her a sociopath.

Jumping to conclusions is not helpful. In one situation, a person was attacked in what I believe was simply a case of mistaken identity.

Negative intentions

Now, it does turn out that everyone who sensed negative intentions on the part of yesterday’s intruder was right. Checking the IP address, I found that it was the same guy who showed up a few days ago. He actually posted on another forum, where predators apparently compare notes, that he hacked into his girlfriend’s computer and found references to Lovefraud. He then invited all his cronies to launch an attack on this blog.

A few Lovefraud contributors did write to me to express concerns, which I appreciate. I was watching this individual. But I admit that he began to show his true colors after I was away from the computer, and I didn’t react quickly. Now, however, I have deleted all his posts.

Personal attacks are not tolerated

The policy at Lovefraud is that personal attacks against other bloggers are not tolerated. I ask everyone, even long-time contributors who suspect a predator, to observe this policy.

So when you believe that someone is here to cause trouble, please do not engage. Do not react. Do not take the bait. Because when we do, we just feed the beast, and the entire Lovefraud conversation degenerates.

It’s important for us to be listening to our intuition. But when we get messages that something is amiss, what should we do? In the real world, we advocate No Contact. I believe we should do the same on Lovefraud.

Remember, they’re looking for a reaction. If we don’t give it, most of them just go away.

Posted in: Donna Andersen

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Thanks so much for addressing this issue. I was rather surprised at the large amount of willing users on this site who took the bait. I noticed early on what was going on and chose to ignore the obvious.
My gut told me immediately that there were red flags, and I even began to doubt myself when I saw all of the responses, however I remained true to the original feelings of deception involved in the dialogue. Not that I’m so wonderful, but just feel pleased that I am learning to listen to myself in spite of what others are doing, and again, thank you for your attentiveness to what goes on here.



The importance of NÇ is often stressed on the blog, but I wonder if it would be helpful to some participants to include an article defining reinforcement and the extinction of negative behavior through by ignoring it. Some basic explanation of behaviorism and the craving for attention of the Cluster Bs would be useful for those who have not been exposed to such ideas and even for those who have and are struggling with NC. Gavin De Becker has a fairly good chapter on NC (chapter 8) in The Gift of Fear that may be worth summarizing.

Thanks for the update. You’d make a good investigator. 🙂


Ditto Housie

It’s pretty hard to refrain from trying to give some ‘hint’ to a ‘newcomer’ that they are being led by the nose though. But fully take on Donna’s point about ‘feeding the beast’.


I meant to say chapter 8 – not sure how the sunglass smiley face showed up there.


“In one situation, a person was attacked in what I believe was a case of mistaken identity.”

I am still seeing trouble, even this morning.



Read all my posts. Just read all of em. I just dont get how you see any trouble. It should be to the contrary…Im trying hard to not feel hurt or insulted or annoyed by your posts…


My goodness, MariaLisa, I have read every word of your posts.
If you recall, I believe I was the FIRST to respond to your post.

I have never made a negative comment about your posts.
I don’t know where all of the hysteria and paranoia is coming from this morning.

Please continue with your healing.

Ox Drover

Donna, I was one of those “long time contributors” who reacted, and I realize I should NOT have reacted, because it only made the situation worse.

I tend to be more reactive when someone I care about is attacked than when I am attacked directly, and because I CARE ABOUT LF, I reacted. Currently I am hyper-reactive anyway because a dear friend is being attacked by ANOTHER psychopathic predator while she is very vulnerable and trying to put her life back together. In fact, I think SHE is handling the attack on her better than I am, because I AM SO VERY ANGRY about the totally UNJUSTIFIED attack which seems to me to be ONLY done because this predator knows she is vulnerable to professional attack at this time.

I apologize for my part in responding to the “bait”—Oxy



In that case I apologise. I just dont/didnt understand about whom you were talking then and it really seemed as if you were pointing at me on several occasions. But forget I thought that then and let’s continue the topics. Sorry ( and no paranoia here just a bit of confusion: also its past 7 in the evening in europe but that just as a side note)

Donna, thank you so much for addressing this issuing.

I don’t mean to complicate the situation, but to my mind, the larger problem is protecting or at least warning off people who may get in involved with trollers or disruptors because they don’t grasp what’s going on.

It’s easy for us who recognize an intruder to go no-contact.

But it’s difficult for us to watch a less experienced and possibly more vulnerable person get engaged.

On a blog, we can’t take a person aside and warn her or him, without making a public statement.

One of the strategies to deal with this situation has been to engage with the person with the single objective of getting him or her to show true colors. For no other reason than that, to clarify what we’re dealing with.

As you noted on your post, it’s not always clear to begin with. We see red flags, or some of us do. But we interact in good faith, because we’re not certain.

In the case of the intruder yesterday, I was certain from the first post. The request for personal information about how we were compromised emotionally, the failure to offer details of personal experience or seek emotional support in his introduction, and the values exhibited by the reference to “prudish women” was three strikes for me. And of all of them, the one that really rang the big bell was the “prudish women” phrase, because it was one of those “slips” that show their real values.

But other people were interacting with him in good faith, and one of them was a brand new person.

I don’t know what the answer is here. But I suggested in another post that it might work if we did two things. One is to say (honestly) to the other person that we were uncomfortable with what they wrote and ask for clarification. The other is to share our feelings with each other (around that person) if we are uncomfortable with what he’s writing.

Neither of these is flaming. And they might enable us to become more certain of what we’re dealing with.

And then, go NC.

It’s that intermediate phase, when we don’t know, that’s the problem. And when damage can be done. We’ve seen hurt feelings because of these people, a lot of interruption to the process, and valued contributors just disappearing, at least temporarily, to get themselves together again.

I know you are willing the “scrub” the blogs, and I’m grateful, as we all our, for your commitment to keep things supportive around here. But if we could find a reasonable mechanism to clarify what’s going on here, I think it would be a good thing.

Respectfully and gratefully,


Ox Drover

Kathy, I totally agree with your take on this, and I don’t have an “answer” other than notifying Donna, which I did after the FIRST post of this person yesterday to bring Donna’s attention to it.

We also have to realize that the LF Blog is a public SERVICE of Donna’s and that she has to have time to make a LIVING like most people on here and it isn’t not made off LF. When I saw the PREVIOUS OBVIOUS ATTACK I e mailed her, then decided to CALL her since it was so BLATANT an attack. The most recent one was not quite so blatant, and I thought she might like to KEEP AN EYE ON this person.

Other blogs that are also suvivor groups are also subjected to these attacks as well, LF is not alone and recently a blog that I am not on, but a friend is on, was HORRIBLY attacked and part of the board of directors and managers did NOT get it and wanted to “give them another chance”—that’s like giving a murderer “another chance” cause it might have been a “mistake” LOL

We DO NOT want, however, to mistake a real victim because they do not have English as a first language or because they don’t speak well, but at the same time as I said on another thread where you posted (in reply to your very excellent post) I suggested that we use this attack as a POSITIVE LEARNING EXPERIENCE, because it WILL Arise again. sooner rather than later me thinks.

Some of us “old hands” can see the flags on some of them right away, and some just peak our interest and make us “note” them. Newbies may not “get it” right away or at all. There was an instance a year or more ago when aloha and I were attacked by a blogger who had come here not for “validation” but to prove something (not sure what) and I feel that she/he was a P who had been involved with a P. A “gasoline and fire” relationship as it were (can’t remember who said that but I thinnk it is VERY discriptive) In any case, when she left (Donna eventually banned her) she took several REAL VICTIMS with her. I was so devestated by it at the time, I was going to quit posting here, so I can understand somewhat the FEAR of being attacked on the blog and the hurt at being attacked. Fortunately, I did not let it deter me from being here and I will never let anyone run me off because my feelings are hurt–LF is too important to me.

By discussing though, what REAL posters look like and what FAKE ones look like I think we could all learn from this and get something GOOD out of a BAD SITUATION. What’ya think?


I do have a question about the Blog. Realizing that many Ps may be reading it and “using” the information we are so eager to share with one another, in however general terms, is there a way to “screen” the bloggers? I realize that a blog “by invitation” or with screening each statement would be a very difficult and probably an impossible venture, but my IT knowledge is limited. This site has been a safe heaven to so many and an Eye opener about many issues. But, each time “this” happens, I worry about the information getting into wrong hands and being misused. So, then the only thing we can share comfortably is “how hurt we are” and not seek ideas re our legal battles, our domestic issues, and parenting concerns. Would like to see how others feel, but I for one would not object to having to share one’s story to become invited and then to have a way to converse with each other outside of the general group ( by invitation only Rooms were used in some blogs, I believe).


I have left you a message on “love, sex , your brain and Sociopaths”.
Unless Donna has deleted it by now.


I agree with Kathleen.

In the begining this person was engaged in conversation to expose the true intentions of this blogger. Without doing this it seems that very vulnerable or new people might engage with them and become totally frightened and leave here before they even understood what happened to them.

Seems like this will happen again and we should be prepared.
I am saddened to see that many peoples feelings are hurt and this blogger has succeded in doing ONE of the things he came to do.


I hope you are polishing your boomerang and coming back.


It was the vicious lashing out other bloggers and at Donna, along with smearing accusations against Donna, that bothered me and it has continued even though Pianoman has left the board. Maybe it is just my perception, but some of that nastiness and insults and accusations struck me as very pathological and having nothing to do with trying to get rid of Pianoman although that was the “excuse” for them. I get that victims have to work thru anger, but really………


…or lemme put it this way. If all those insults against fellow bloggers and the lovefraud board owner was part of a “playscript” to get rid of Pianoman, well, I have been around this board for ages and lets say the “playscript” got me confused by it……….then my take is that if newbies are on board and see this type of interaction they would likely conclude “victims” are as nutty and vicious as the sociopaths.


i agree. talking about the board owner in that way definitely seemed highly inappropriate ( name calling and all definitely went far), no matter in what distress we are. having self control is exactly what separates us from ‘ them’….at the same time we are all human and sometimes slip, it seemed like the board owner took the high road and continued to set an example.

Ox Drover

I agree, Jen and mariaLisa,

I advocate “taking the high road” and yet, sometimes even I do not always take at least the “highest” road. I too interacterd with P.M. and I knew better but Idid it anyway…..

However, because we do know that sometimes we are “triggered” to outrageous anger by various things that are in themselves not much or not even meant as an insult, we take them as an “attack” on us and lash out. That lashing out is a SYMPTOM of the PTSD that some of us get from being abused in the first place.

An example, and I am not picking on him, but that guy a few days ago that our SWEET Henry lashed out and told to go F’himself is a prime example of someone who is a really sweet person who because of his victimization in the past, reacted with overwhelming ANGER. Henry, BTW apologized for this lashing out and I KNOW he was sincere with his apology. I too apologized to Donna very sincerely for even engaging once with the P. M. I should not have done it.

Learning to keep our tempers in check is all a part of the learning process and I do not condemn anyone for being “triggered” and lashing out, I can only hope that they do not push away the REAL FRIENDS that they have by CONTINUING to be angry and lash out. A BIG part, I think, of our victimization is that we (victims) do sometimes lash out at the very people who would supoort us if we weren’t so injured and lashing out.

Sort of like, I have used the analogy before of, an injured and wounded puppy dog lying on the road after being hit by a car, will bite the loving owner’s hand as he reaches to pick it up and take it to the vet. The otherwise loving pet, in his incredible pain bites the hand that actually loves it and is helping it. None of us would hold a grudge if our own dog did this, so we must, I think, also have compassion for our fellow former victims who might lash out at us.

Jen2008, you wrote that you get that victims have to work through anger. I think that’s what you were seeing in Tilly. She was working through anger in her abusive relationship, and this became part of it.

She also used sarcasm (or irony) to deal with both him and the situation around her, as she felt unsupported and isolated. I’m “reading her mind” here, but I think it’s probably accurate.

Judging each other is one of the most destructive things we can do, and it’s one of the really ugly impacts of these malignant intrusions. This isn’t the first time one of them has set us against each other.

I think that Tilly was trying to do the right thing. And yes, the playscript got confusing, which is why I tried to step in once in a while and echo her, hoping it would make more sense to everyone else.

But because she stepped up as a warrior in this situation didn’t mean that her emotional vulnerabilities went away. She’s angry at Donna because Donna hurt her feelings. I think that Donna must have deleted some other posts that Tilly made, because the only knowledge I have of attacks on other people was the last post she wrote to me. Hopefully she’ll work it out with Donna, because Donna was, as always, trying to do the right the thing for the board.

I can’t speak for anyone else, but I know that in my angry stage I was incendiary. I lashed out at a lot of people, when I thought they were betraying me. Later, as I worked through more of my anger, I became more understanding of other people’s situations and realities. The people who are still my friends today recognized that I was in an angry phase and gave me some slack.

MariaLisa, I think what separates us from them is that we can feel for other people.

The problem with these intrusion is that they have this sort of ripple effect. A lot of people get triggered. Whether they get scared, angry or just want to drop out for a while to sort out their feelings. And in getting triggered, they trigger other people, and it goes on.

It would be helpful if we could figure out a way to communicate with each other, without flaming a new visitor, that we notice a red flag or two. I’ve suggested that we just use the word “uncomfortable” either in talking to the possible intruder or in discussing it with each other. Until we know what we’re dealing with — and then we can just go NC.

Oxy has suggested that we start paying attention to how real newbies arrive, so we know when someone doesn’t fit the pattern. And I think that’s a really good idea too. These people who come out of nowhere with out-of-pattern introductions may not be sociopaths, but if they’re not here for support in healing, we probably need to figure out what they are doing here, so we know how to handle them.

I’m an ex-journalist, and I’m waiting for the day a journalist arrives and starts asking us questions. There are a number of books being planned by people who write on this site, and eventually there is going to be some press attention. Fortunately, Donna has experience with this (as I do), and we can direct them right back to her.

The bottom line here is virtually all of us are here for support in recovery. I describe the LoveFraud blog as a big group therapy session, and it is an incredible, valuable resource for that purpose. If people are not here for that purpose — sociopath or not — they are going to disrupt the process. And we who are here for healing need to know what to do.

In general, we need to report them to Donna. If it’s not clear to us that they are not one of us, then we’ve got the problem of figuring it out. Especially if they come in, as this last person did, with questions for us.

Hopefully Donna will return soon to this thread, and give us more of her thoughts.

Oh thanks, Oxy, we were writing at the same time. I think you said it better than me.


yes kathy i agree.
and because we feel for others we think about the impact our actions/words may have on others and therefore practise self control when we think we might harm someone else ( and inevitably ourselves). in that way we are different from them.
but its hard. feeling so betrayed, having that wound, makes it hard to even be reminded of behavior that made it in the first place.

anger always ( only not in a psychopath!) stems from fear does it not. so we always need to examine our fear. and address that. strange thing is that psychopaths only fear they dont get what they want…im drifting off…i think were all on the right track here now?


I am back – I have a question and a comment. Is it a good idea to recommend people to lovefraud that we really dont know but suspect that they are dealing with a s/p/n? Recently I have done that on some other websites where the blogger was obviously dealing with an s/p/n or in a very TOXIC situation. And maybe I have suggested LF to someone, and their spouse or partner has found out and came in to cause havoc. My comment – there was a time in my life when I would believe what ever came out of someones mouth to be truth. I know I have been lied to most of my life and I am now more assertive and tend to speak up. I am not paranoid but when I step in dog chit I know it. I am getting confused as to who is who and what is what here. Who is calling who borderline? A narc? A spath? A victim? Aint nobody here that does not have issues to work on and yes disorders too boot. I am not seeking attention here. Interaction and learning and helping and what this is about…

Ox Drover

Anytime a new poster comes on here, they are an “unknown” to us. We tend to be MORE trusting of posters on here, say, than we would be on maybe a “dating site” but at the same time, dysfunctional, nasty and P/S people can come here too.

There ARE ways we can potentially spot these jerks before they do too much damage.

As we learn to be CAUTIOUS with any new people we “meet” we should look for OBVIOUS signs that they might not be who they are representing themselves as.

We need to continually examine how a person responds to us, etc. While we may understand and/or like some people better than others, that doesn’t mean they should be given “excuses” for bad behavior. While many of us feel very “at home” here at LoveFraud, this IS Donna’s site, and we are guests here—as long as we behave appropriately.

Frankly, if this were my site and I was the “Boss” I would be less understanding and compassionate than Donna is, I’d swing my Cyber skillet—but two things, 1) I am not the boss, and 2) Donna is doing an excellent job when you get down to it, and a better job than I think I would do. She’s a lot more tactful than I am too. LOL

Donna is taking her time to donate here, and while she might get some income off the google adds and from selling books, she is NOT making a living here folks, this is a publis SERVICE she does in between working and her LIFE. She donates a great deal of time here because she CARES.

Most of you know I am a “mouthy old biddy” at times, and that’s just ME–but Donna has never been unkind to me in any way. I totally, 110% appreicate Donna, am grateful for the huge amount of TIME she spends here and am thankful for her tact! I wanna be just like her when I grow up!

Me too, Henry. And I’m so glad you came back.

I don’t like name-calling. I know it’s part of the recovery process, the blaming and judging of the angry phase. And it’s a good thing, in separating ourselves from our abusers and their bad intentions. I anticipate that the anger will run its course, and we’ll move on the more positive parts of recovery after we’ve thought about how to protect ourselves in the future

But when it happens here, among ourselves, I find myself withdrawing. Pulling back. Feeling like I’m being abused myself, even if it’s not aimed at me. There’s a lot of difference between this judgmental energy and the caring attention we usually give each other. And I don’t like being around it. I’m afraid to talk, fearing that I’ll be the next target.

That said, I understand how people feel. There is so much vulnerability around here, so many unresolved feelings of victimization. We’re very sensitive. And it always starts with a malignant intruder. I didn’t really get, before this episode, how right Oxy is about the way these people interfere with what’s going on here.


Kathleen said: “Jen2008, you wrote that you get that victims have to work through anger.”

I think you wrote a very compassionate post explaining Tilly’s possible motives or reactions.

To clarify my position, I mean I understand that victim’s have to work through anger towards the person who abused them (the S or P) and possibly anger at themselves for whatever they feel their part may have been (if any). I understand this very well may include therapy to work thru anger issues.

But here is where I think we may have a differing of opinion and I suppose we will just have to agree to disagree. I do NOT condone a victim feeling entitled to abuse other people because they think being a victim of a sociopath or psychopath excuses their behavior and therefore everyone else is expected to tread lightly around them and respect their boundaries, while THEY trample all over everybody else. Just as I don’t condone a young boy who is beaten by his father and watches his father beat his mother is excused for later on beating his own wife and children because he himself was a victim of domestic violence. In that example, I understand where the root of the behavavior came from, but I certainly wouldn’t consider him lashing out at his wife and children as a beautiful thing.

I feel we all have to learn to control our impulses and if we don’t, we can’t expect those we lash out at (who have nothing to do with the original pain) to be delighted to be our whipping post. I’ve posted on this very thing before and it is sort of my pet peeve that I feel victims do have the right to their anger etc. and their issues, but I do NOT feel it gives them carte blanche entitlement to trample and mistreat others in the name of victimhood. I just don’t.


‘then my take is that if newbies are on board and see this type of interaction they would likely conclude “victims” are as nutty and vicious as the sociopaths’

With respect Jen (and I do respect you lots), I would think that like me, most ‘victims’ or newbies would understand after reading a bit of what was going on, possibly through a connection to their own feelings, that a predator in the mix will cause some people to feel extremely threatend and angry, having been through the same ordeal, I am not sure calling people nutty would be the first thing I’d do. I notice that ML has not done so.

‘Aint nobody here that does not have issues to work on and yes disorders too boot.’

if someone came here and thought we were ‘nutty’, then they are in the wrong place.IHMO.

I think we ran into problems last night because concerns WERE expressed and NOT acted upon… I woke up (in Europe;) this morning to find PM’s offensive(yep – there is no other way to spin it, even if he did throw in a few ‘valid’ points) posts still all over the place.

I can totally understand why one of our longer term members felt un supported ( of course that was not the reality but it seemed like that), and those feelings lead to it getting out of hand… I for one refuse to condemn the ensuing reaction because I understand where it came from.

I know though that this is NOT a publicly funded service, I am not finger pointing or blaming anyone AT ALL I have no idea at all what it takes to run a site like this and how difficult in reality it is to ‘police’.

I hope this is okay. Its just my thoughts and feelings.



ok before i TRULY go to bed:
Jen2008: i SO agree. couldnt have said it better. taken responsibilty for one’s own path IS the path to peace. its the hardest path but ultimately the right path and the rewarding path. i have been WAY too understanding of my P ex for excusing his behavior by his childhood trauma’s: which for all i know are lies too, but he uses that :why? because people have empathy: so NO, NO empathy for abuse of others. understanding for anger? YES. understanding for grief? YES understanding for hurt? YES for everything BUT not for harming other on the way.

wow i need to get some rest!
take care everyone!


and as a final reaction also to blueskies: i dont think anybody on this board ( apart from PM ofcourse) sincerily meant harm and therefore everything will be cool. BUT its a good discussion to have regardless!


I think the veterans here are in a position to quietly notify Donna when a anyone (new or old) is sending red flags across the board. This way by bringing it to Donna’s attention she can regulate the interaction as she sees fit.

I wholeheartedly agree and maybe Oxy or Donna or Kathleen could write an article for everyone to read about what the warning signs or danger signs may be when a “bad blogger” crosses the pathes of LF readers/posters.

Engaging them or “calling them out” is probably exactly what they thrive on… so instead of making the goal trying to covertly warn others it may be most productive to simply alert Donna at the onset of the first intrusion.

We need to get back to the positive, healing, thought provoking posts and pick up where Witsend and A New Lily left off…wondering if there was any good news or updates in everyones (new and old) healing journies…both painful and joyful…

And Henry, with SO many different personalities – theres bound to be posters who dont see eye to eye, or dont hit it off, or simply feel one or the other isnt a good match for their personality on the website ( either being in different places or stronger or weaker or just too much to deal with….as a rule of thumb … I think so many of us just revert to the good old NC rule and let bygones be bygones and give and receive what the majority of us are interested in at LF….sound positive advice, feedback and healing!!!!


Donna- I post rarely, but was having a really bad day yesterday and I posted on the article about how cruel Ss can be. I found that article very helpful and the kind responses I received as well. Can the article and the posts (Like mine and the people who responded to me) not related to the “abuser” be restored?


” engagement with him very emotional for you, and likewise your reactions to what happened around it.”
Yes, I agree with you kathleen that I am totally in the anger stage and proud of it! I did not feel emotional with the P yesterday when I engaged with and i “chose” to engage with him for that reason. I felt safe because i was amongst my own. And your right in everything you said about it, especially that i was trying to expose him more, which i certainly did. (And i am sure he/they are reading this today to get more tips).
But you are also right in the part where you said,” ,…my reactions to people around me”.
I was totally over-reactive in my reactions to other people to make an effort to get them to see what was happening. However it backfired, with some intersting results.
I want to thank you again for expressing for me what i can’t. You are an amazing writer and journalist! Thankyou for helping me these last few days. Your help has been enormous and I have had an “epiphany” or a “breakthru” yet again, thanks to YOU!
You will notice that i only engaged with the one psychopath yesterday. That was because i did not feel emotionally engaged with him and I knew what I was doing. In the anger stage it is great to confirm, restate and remember psychopathic behaviours.
However, i agree with Rosa about some of the other psychopaths and I have purposely NOT ever directly engaged with them. That is because i am not up to the challenge. I have mentioned them on my way, but i have not been up to trying to help others to see what they are, without getting hurt. So I am steering clear of them.
Donna gave me an apology and I am APOLOGISING right BACK to YOU DONNA! I am sorry for over-reacting to you Donna when you deleted some of my posts! I know we wouldn’t have a LF if it wasn’t for you. And yes i know i am in the angry stage and I am NOT PRETENDING otherwise.
I think Rosa needs a bit more support at the moment, not explanation about anything, just how grateful we are to her for helping us in the best way she can. THANKYOU ROSA!!! Sorry I can’t do any more on this one. I’m just not emotionally up to it.
Stay cool guys!
Its a beautiful day here at home, with my brown snakes, funnel webs, stone fish and blue ringed octopus!

Ox Drover

Henry, dear,

I think yes it is appropriate to recommend LF if you think someone is in a P relationship.

Ps come here just like they infiltrate AA groups and every other group I ahve EVER been in. I’ve got several Ns and Ps in my living history group and they are a PITA –remember me telling about the one I went to the DA and filed charges on cause he pointed a gun at me? (as a joke) Well, they are everywhere.

I don’t doubt that there will be future attacks on LF when the S/Ps will come here to try to stir up trouble, but I think we just need to be like I said above, CAUTIOUS with any one any where, in real llife or on the internet. I’m not in the least afraid for them to read my “story”—even if they take it back to their own cave-blog and gloat over it. So what! I think they will reveal themselves sooner or later as FAKES, just like they do in real life. When the lastest one came on there was something that raised my hackles on his first post and I sent Donna an e mail telling her that I thought he might “bear watching” and of course it didn’t take long until there was chaos…which was what he intended to do.

It was the usual crap of Ps—blame placing “Do you not have a sense of humor?” “I haven’t committed a crime and everyone is blaming me” and so on. Typical P-crap that most of us recognize immediately. Of course I just “loved” the pity play of “we adopted a child and he sold it into slavery for drug money” pa—leee-aze, make up a better fake story than that one! See, they do not even know what will “fly” as a reasonable or believeable story. that one Elizabeth told about meething with th e P about the money he told her and when he got there he made up this story that BOTH his parents were killed in a plane crash while he was on the way to meet her—and of course, that was the reason he hadn’t paid her the money for x number of years or months! ha ha He didn’t even have sense enough to make up a GOOD LIE! The same thing I think with P.M. he didn’t have sense enough to camo his N-ism or make up a good pity-play lie.\

You know guys, I give us an A+ for spotting these fakers lately, and the “control freak” a while back—we’re getting goood at this and we need to work on getting even better—but when we spot one we need to figure out some way to “warn” others AND not start a “fight” on the blog…I know you guys are smart, so put yer pointed heads together and figure out a way!!! LOL

Ox Drover

Dear DEAR Tilly,

I am glad you are back, you know we love you!!!! Being triggered by these arseholes is nothing to be ashamed of in any way!!! ((((hugs))))) I’m glad you and donna have patched things up and you know that I care so much about you, it hurt me to see you hurt ((((hugs again!)) I know you have had a bad week and this was just the topper on the ice cream sundae!!! What you didn’t need, and every time one of these creep-os comes here it causes chaos. But we are learning how to spot them, and we are getting stronger every day! That’s what LF is all about —and helping others who come after us.

On the above post, I had started it and not finished it while you guys were posting, then came back and saw your and other’s posts after I posted the above post, so this one is specially for YOU. I also agree with LTL too. (((hugs to you all))))


Hey Oxy… I say if Donna approves that we engage in “covertly
warning” others — instead of just notifying Donna of our concerns — that maybe an short article can be written and we can refer the innocent poster to go back and read THAT Article. Although, in the real world we all agree we cant “warn” anyone about a S/P/N… so not sure we should be taking that on here at LF Website….just not sure whats best…but you are right where theres a will theres a way – maybe just posting a post that says RED FLAG! As long as Donna agrees .

Ox Drover

Dear LTL,

That might be a good way or just FLAG….but newbies wouldn’t know what it was so I’m not sure, I do know that a nice email to donna is okay. She is VERY available, and considering that LF is not her FULL TIME JOB she is amazing!!!! I think we all need to give Donna a big round of TOWANDAs!!!!!


Dear Oxy,

I 2nd that notion! Donna truly does not miss a beat with her baby
“LF” — she is heaven sent and I really think this site is surrounded by Cyber Angels who help Donna weed out the bad seeds each and everytime.

TOWANDA DONNA – You run a tight ship and it shows!!!! Towanda!


Dear Tilly,
Glad you are back.

Tilly, thanks so much for popping back in. I was just about to write another mind-reading post about you and I’m relieved to abandon it. It’s a very bad habit of mine.

Jen2008, this may sound very peculiar but we are not always reasonable here. But what we do try to be is honest, responding in real-time with how we feel. It creates some interesting conversations, and many of us (including me) get our feelings hurt occasionally. And others of us (including me) get lessons about how other people feel about what we say.

But one of the most important things that happens here on LoveFraud is that people get in touch with their anger. Many, if not most of us, were not particularly good at anger before we got involved with the sociopaths. And in releasing that old anger, we go through a period where it’s a big part of our personalities. Eventually we work through all the historical triggers that we didn’t react to when they happened. And we become comfortable with our anger, knowing that is an important part of our internal defenses. And then, finally, we become people who know how to use it effectively and creatively.

That process is happening all over this blog, and when you understand what you’re seeing, it is a kind of miracle in motion, changing people’s lives, and opening up their authenticity and personal power.

There are no “should’s” in this. In fact, we put away the should’s for this experience, and just be ourselves. This is one of the ways that this is a safe place. And as I said, it does cause us to get a little wild sometimes, and we do occasionally get our feelings hurt. But we also largely see the causes of each other’s behaviors, because we have so much in common.

I believe that really “good” behavior is not based on rules, but on knowing ourselves and being compassionate toward other people. I am proud of what Tilly did yesterday, the risks she took. And I understand what happened to her and why she felt the way she did. I’m not defending her. I don’t have to defend her. She was a hero. And she learned something about herself that will literally change her life.

Maybe we should invite these guys in once in a while, so we can practice on them. For some people, it might be a good thing.

Just kidding, Donna.





You sound a lot better tonight. I am glad.

It was lonely on here without you today. Am I the only one seeing this?? If I am the only one, then I am scared.

I would NOT give us an A+ for spotting fakers.

There was A LOT of mirroring going on on this thread this afternoon.

But, it feels really good when someone is agreeing with you 100% of the time, and repeating everything you say right back to you, just with different semantics.

They are not all going to come on here with a vengeance, throwing insults and outrageous lies.

I hope we all know that these individuals can be really charming, and intelligent. Just because someone comes on with good chit-chat, or facts and figures in tow, does NOT make them any less morally/emotionally vacant.

These are the “props” they will use. Please do not be mesmerized by the sideshow.


Donna & Oxy,
Thank you for what you & all the other posters have done to restore the peace here. Whenever we’ve been intruded upon before by one of those little trolls, it literally scares the beejeepers outta me. My gut reaction is to flee, stay hidden for awhile, then peek out to see if the danger is gone. I usually have nightmares for a few days about the s, until I’m back on an even keel, again. I think the signal word idea is a good one, to keep us scaredy cats from hanging from the rafters like Sylvester the cat!


I think I hear you on this. There were a couple of things thrown out there that I didn’t understand, at first, but I do believe that I know what your saying.

So many of the blogs are gone or threads deleated that you can’t go back and reread and follow through all what was said. And so I’m not 100% convinced.

On the subject of referring people here, I do it myself- but usually in a PM or such rather than on a public forum. It allows the person to read the reasons I think they are dealing with a disordered person in private, come have a look, and then work on it themselves. Sometimes talking about n/s/p’s in public just brings out the attack dog in people…especially when they themselves exhibit some of those traits…lol. I’ve gotten several thank you’s for the referrals…I don’t know if they’ve ever logged on or posted but they have READ. It just breaks my heart when I run across people who have been devastated by what sounds like sociopathic behaviour and they don’t even know WHY they feel so bad. Ugh- I hated that lost and adrift feeling. Never again- and that’s largely because of lovefraud.

I’ve noticed that when there is a big “S” event and someone posts lovefraud’s addy into a comment, within a few days there is some imposter that gets the “nudge” to take a hike. The Sandra Boss article, for example…I forget the user’s name but it’s the one that lead to the mistaken identity incident shortly thereafter. Maybe if you post a lovefraud link in an article’s comment section – especially if it is receiving national attention- one should let folks here know. I think that action brings in both a n/p/s victim or two as well as a n/p/s.

I like the idea of a signal or “safe” word. Or start reciting your favorite children’s poetry- “Mary had a little lamb, it’s fleece was white as snow…” The n/p/s’s think we’re nuts anyway-they won’t get it. ;)~

Keep up the fabulous work Donna- there are many people who are silent, but stronger for all that you do.

Hecates path

Yes, Donna, I second Blindsided’s request to consider restoring the original article and nonPM related posts, please?

I believe I was one of the people who responded to Blindsided after reading how she was struggling with the upcoming date of July 31 that has sad significance…

Blindsided did I get that scenario right? I couldn’t remember your log-in name and have looked around a bit today trying to figure out “who” you are so I could check in and see if you ever read my response and if, more importantly, you are feeling worse, the same, or (HOPEFULLY) better today?



Thank you for this site! I wouldn’t have made it this far without it, and I know I wouldn’t be healing.

Tilly! Glad you’re back!

Was having a very bad day yesterday, and came in reading right in the middle of everything. Initially, I was very uncomfortable, but then I realized: this was my chance to see if I could spot the red flags, and listen to how others dealt with the intruder. NC is my choice, but sometimes, that isn’t possible.

I noticed how shallow what PM wrote was, and how there were not-so-subtle “jokes” that were really abusive. That I could see it was really great, because I used to just edit out the unpleasant, which of course made me a better target.

While everyone didn’t get along so great yesterday, look at what’s happening now! In healthy, balanced, happy families, there are still disagreements, but they are resolved based on respect and willingness to consider one’s self and others, and the choice to be gracious. It’s pretty great that this is happening right now, in this on-line family.

When ants are threatened with water, they form an “ant ball” by joining together so they can ride out the flood (yep, I’m a nerd). They do this by holding onto each other. Single ants would be swept away and drowned; but in the ant ball, because they from a greater surface area, they often survive. Cool, huh? It’s amazing that we are from all over, different countries and continents — yet here we are, forming connections that allow us to overcome one of the most vicious onslaughts a person can encounter.

My plan is to be aware when new people arrive, and simply be observant. Treat them neutrally — be polite and offer some support, or even be silent if it takes me a while to figure things out — until signs present themselves that something is “off,” then I’m emailing Donna (bless her!).

I’m glad we’re talking about this, and I know we will be able to find solutions that work for this really quite remarkable community.


Hecates path

Glinda and LF friends,
LMBO on Glinda’s comment “The s/n/p’s think we’re nuts anyway…” Heaven knows they’re kinda short on SELF reflection LOL!

Yesterday I mentioned I am reading “Columbine.” After the author’s notes (in front of the book) there is a quote by Earnest Hemingway that seems not only appropriate for all of us on the recovery path, wherever we may be, but also in light of the recent events:

“The world breaks everyone and afterward we are strong at the broken places.”

whether our “yesterday” is literal or metaphoric I have faith that each of us is indeed a bit stronger today from where we were “yesterday”… And in our strength we weaken the S/N/Ps…

Hecates path

OMG!! Major OOPs! In my post at 8:32 PM I misquoted Hemingway!!!
That quote SHOULD say:

“The world breaks everyone and afterward *many* are strong at the broken places.”

Pretty bad when an English teacher misquotes Hemingway… glad my students will never know, LOL!


Good evening all,

Always a day late and a dollar short here. I caught most of the happenings on the fly yesterday; so busy at work I couldn’t do much more than cheer and jeer at what was going on.

The jeers, of course, to the Hollow Ones, and the cheers to my LF buddies. Good going, all, including the astute and oftentimes very funny Rosa.

I’ve posted for a lotta years on messages boards of various types, and a troll is a troll is a troll, psycho or not. The best way to handle ANY would-be disruptor is to ignore him/her. In the words of Den Mother Oxy, “potted plant, potted plant, potted plant.”

And to Henry: I had a dandy post started in reply to your question while I was at work earlier, but had to erase it when my ride arrived early. The gist of it was this: absolutely you should invite others to LF. It’s one of the few places I’ve found with good information, great people, and a consistently good signal-to-noise ratio.

You read some of the other sites addressing the N/S/P subject, and its like you’re on a bullet train to Nuttyville.

However, I have advised others to lurk for quite a while first to get a feel of the place. But that’s just me. And of course, it’s always a good idea to be circumspect in disclosing your location, your profession, things like that. I’ve always taken care to keep concrete details of my life hidden, even as I anonymously reveal deep personal truths. There really are bad people out there. Of course we’ll run across them now and then–and if our aim is particularly good, run over them–but for the most part I’d rather just avoid them. They’re boring, because they’re all the same. Hollow, shallow, and mean.


Hecates path-
Thanks for remembering- yes it was me and I was really comforted by your comments and one other- it was said that I should try to do something fun on the annniversary of the D&D-7/31. It was good advice- but easier said than done.

Although it is 6 weeks today of NC, I still had an awful day today. The S and I met at work- he is a social worker with a Masters degree as am I. Shortly after the D&D, the S began having major problems at work (Thinking back to stories he told me about past jobs- this has been a lifelong pattern). I’ve learned from reading (especially helpful is “The Sociopath Next Door”)Ss are chronically bored and not really able to concentrate long enough to maintain on a job for long. I’ve held this job for 30 years, he only 3 yrs. Anyway, apparently his problems got so bad that he was suspended for a week. After that, he took off 12 weeks of FMLA (family medical leave act) because his Mom is not well- funny how Ss can obtain documentation to be able to do that. During the call me made to me 6 weeks ago today, he said that he was looking for another job because he knew if he stayed he would be fired. Today, someone I rarely see stopped by my office to say Hi and told me she had heard from the S and he got another job- in a location that is at least an hour away from where he lives. My initial reaction was- great, I’ll never see him again. But also there was pain- not only did he blow the wonderful relationship with me because he “didn’t love me” to move on to a new victim who he told me he loves (cruel- because I know he CAN’T love), but he blew a great job too. So sad,and apparently so typical of Ss. I thought ,as I was coming home tonight- he’s probably already found a new victim on his new job that he’s starting to “charm”.

I obviously know in my mind what he is all about, but even after a year, my heart cannot believe that this person I loved with all my heart and was so wonderful to me was a total fake- that the person I thought I knew does not even exist. I still have a long way to go.

Thanks again for your support.

I also reached out to DONE last night who has helped me a lot in the past but whom I haven’t seen posting lately, Thanks to you too for support you provided 6 weeks ago.

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