The connection between love and politics—that was the topic of commentary in yesterday’s paper written by Gregory Rodriguez, a columnist for the Los Angeles Times. The article, Love and politics in a cynical age, got me thinking about the consistency of behavior.
Rodriguez summarized how Americans have come to view the private lives and public lives of the people we elect to represent us. He wrote:
The truth is that we don’t generally associate politics or politicians with happy marriages and deep romance, let alone fidelity. The constant revelation of scandals and peccadilloes in the halls of power have trained us to expect the worst of those—particularly the men—we elect to shepherd and protect the interests of society. Somewhere along the line, Americans have even bought into the notion that a politician’s private life, in particular his love life, has little or nothing to do with his efforts on behalf of the public good.
In other words, people seem to think that just because an elected official cheats on his spouse, it doesn’t mean we can’t trust him with our tax dollars.
Not everyone holds this view. Ross Perot, who ran for president in 1992, famously said that at his company, EDS, lying, cheating, stealing and adultery were all grounds for dismissal. If he were elected, he said, the same standard would apply. Perot said:
“If a man’s own wife cannot trust him, how can the American people?”
This, I think, is a legitimate question.
Different behavior
People often ask me if a sociopath will be “different” with a particular person. For example, can a sociopathic man who hates and harasses his ex-wife love his children? Can a sociopathic woman who takes advantage of her family be true to her new boyfriend?
The short answer is no. Exploitative people exploit anyone who has something that they want.
The long answer is that exploitative people may seem to authentically care for particular individuals, but it’s probably just part of an overall scheme of manipulation. The sociopath is just softening up the target, preparing for the right time to strike.
Here is one of the most dangerous thoughts we can ever have: “Well, yes, he (or she) treated that person badly, but he’ll never do that to me!”
Remember: The best indication of future behavior is past behavior. If you know that a person has behaved in a deceitful or exploitative way towards someone else, sooner or later, the person will behave that way towards you.
Compartmentalize
So why do we compartmentalize? Why do people seem to believe that how our elected officials conduct their private lives has nothing to do with how they conduct their public lives? Why is it that when we hear of a powerful person who has a solid marriage, we are surprised?
Maybe we’re beaten down. Maybe we’re totally disillusioned. After all, stories of deceit, betrayal and treachery have been around as long as humans have told stories. Maybe we hear of so many scandals—from cheating spouses to tax dollars wasted—that we simply expect the worst of people.
Perhaps public life has simply gotten too easy in America. It’s not like the Revolutionary War, when men risked their lives and fortunes to stand up to the British. No, politics today is all talk and no consequences. That makes it an excellent career choice for sociopaths—all they have to do is be charming, charismatic and deceitful.
Sociopaths, after all, want power, control and sex. By getting elected, they have access to everything they want.
Liu Xiaobo
That’s why it’s so refreshing to hear about people, in this day and age, fighting the good fight from a foundation of love.
In the article that I quoted in the beginning of this post, the author, Gregory Rodriguez, also wrote about Liu Xiaobo. Liu is the Chinese dissident who recently won the Nobel Peace Prize. He, of course, was viewed as a subversive criminal by the Chinese government, and was not allowed to go to Norway and accept the prize. Rodriguez explained how his absence was handled in Oslo:
Actress Liv Ullmann read aloud the statement Liu released last December as he was awaiting trial for “inciting subversion of state power.” At the top, he sermonized against hatred (“enmity can poison a nation’s spirit”), but his ending was an exquisite love letter to his wife, Liu Xia.
“I am sentenced to a visible prison,” he wrote, “while you are waiting in an invisible one. Your love is sunlight that transcends prison walls and bars, stroking every inch of my skin, warming my every cell, letting me maintain my inner calm, magnanimous and bright, so that every minute in prison is full of meaning. But my love for you is full of guilt and regret, sometimes heavy enough to hobble my steps. I am a hard stone in the wilderness, putting up with the pummeling of raging storms, and too cold for anyone to dare touch. But my love is hard, sharp, and can penetrate any obstacles. Even if I am crushed into powder, I will embrace you with the ashes.”
Rodriguez viewed Liu’s words to his wife as a sign of passion and commitment, and the bad behavior in the private lives of elected officials as the opposite. The point, Rodriguez wrote, is that love begins at home.
How people conduct their private lives is absolutely relevant to whether or not they should be elected. People who cannot be trusted by their most intimate loved ones cannot be trusted by anyone. And people who feel genuine love and compassion for their families can extend their love and compassion for the greater good.
You know I think of what my OWN “NBC interview” might look like in 30 years when I am 94 and my son C who has been financially fairly irresponsible and ended up homeless or whatever, and he got another chance at “success” through some sort of fluke, would be like….my son C is NOT a psychopath, but he has done some pretty chitty things to me, kept secrets for the P-son and other psychopaths who were attacking me, and he knew it, gone along with my egg donor when she, his wife, the Trojan Horse and my P son were all trying to run me out of my own home….and you know what, I’m not too trusting of him EVER changing his poor decisions no matter HOW MANY CHANCES HE IS GIVEN through whatever avenues.
I actually love my son C, but I know that he is NOT going to change any until he makes up his mind to do so, and I have NO CONFIDENCE in him doing that. Doesn’t mean he can’t, just that I have NO CONFIDENCE HE WILL. I have no intention of “helping” him if he gets into a situation where he is homeless, or has no transportation, or goes to jail or anything else that happens to him. He is on his own, the consequences of his choices are his. I can’t and won’t rescue him. Every time I have TRIED to “rescue” him it bit me in the ass. HE bit me in the ass. Not of course to the extent that the psychopathic son did, but I still realize that C is dysfunctional.
You know, He has never posted here, but he has READ here and I know he does. I’m not posting this for him to read and he may never read it, probably won’t, but if he reads it, that’s okay as well. Nothing I would say behind his back I won’t say to his face, but the best thing I have to offer him is NO CONTACT except the bare minimum mostly through E mail which concerns our joint efforts to keep his P brother in prison and without money for both our safety and protection. Otherwise, he can go his own way in his own life and if things go well I am happy for him, if they don’t go well, I’m sorry that he has chosen the paths he has, but they are not of my choosing or my fixing.
I may end up a lonely old woman in a nursing home without any visitors and the staff saying “wonder what she did to her kids that they never come visit her, she must have been mean to them” or they may say “well, her kids must be ungrateful to never come visit such a sweet little old lady,” either way, they will be wrong.
I sometimes make the kind of “snap judgment” that BloggerT talks about, spouting off and labeling someone a “psychopath” on flimsy or little evidence. Even Dr. Robert Hare, who is one of the leading experts in the field of psychopathy, who has decades of experience in assessing and dealing with psychopaths, has a tool that he and others have developed over a considerable period of time that takes into consideration a large number of FACTORS of a person’s personality, behavior and criminal and personal history before labeling someone a “psychopath.” It would be nice if a person could be labeled a psychopath or not by using a video of a few minutes length, but it takes both expertise and time to diagnose any mental condition or mental illness.
Out of the two men I gave birth to and raised, one is a full fledged psychopathic criminal, diagnosed and incarcerated for murder, and the other one ADHD and dysfunctional in many ways, though not criminal, so that wouldn’t speak well for my “parenting skills” over all. My “discouraging words” about either of my two biological sons isn’t all that “supportive” either and might make one think I had always been undermining to these men and that is the reason they were not “successes” in life. In fact, People might think I must have been a TERRIBLE parent to these men to make one turn out to be such a monster without remorse for the murder he committed. In fact, the fact that he is abusive almost “proves” that I had to have abused him when he was a child.
While it is easier for me to hate “them” when I consider that anyone who does a “bad act” is a psychopath, and therefore inhuman and therefore can be punished without any feeling that a human being is being squashed like a bug…when I feel that way I am lowering myself to their level I think.
In re-reading “In Broad Daylight” the book about Ken McElroy’s killing in 1981 in Missouri after he had terrorized the entire town and his women and children for a decade, there is no doubt in my mind that Ken Mc Elroy was a psychopathic individual, but his entire life history is laid out (I am assuming it is correct) and his criminal behavior, his arsons rapes, etc. bespeak his violence and lack of conscience, yet he was a human, a flawed and a violent one, but none-the-less, human. His behavior and the lack of law enforcement though drove the town’s people to see him as something less than human and to take the law into their own hands. I can understand, frankly, why they did that, and I can empathize with them for what they did, but I can’t approve of it. Sometimes people are pushed into a corner where they feel they must strike back at their attackers in order to survive.
I just hope that I am never in a position where I have to defend myself. I have made up my mind to do so if I must, but at the same time, I hope I don’t have to. My Psychopathic son is dangerous, just like Ken McElroy was dangerous, but he is still a human being and while I sure don’t like him, and I believe he deserves to be in prison where he is not as likely to hurt someone, I pray to God I don’t have to kill him some day, but I do know I won’t do like the town of Skidmore, MO, did and hunt him down to kill him in broad day light on the main street of town.
Thank you all for your input. I so appreciate it. It’s very validating during a time of painful realities setting in.
Ox, I’m trying to find the formula that works. Haven’t gotten there yet. Just keep reiterating the same shit over and over “he’s disordered, I wasn’t the first, I’m not the last and thank GOD I’m not his victim anymore!” over and over again….
I had a great short talk with my daughter this morning about self care. I sat her and her BF down and told them exactly what I felt I needed to do to take care of myself RIGHT NOW. It felt good to acknowledge that. It’s always been me to take are of things. I can’t right now. Some I can, others are just too big of a pill to swallow.
I have decided to lay low at home for right now. Way too many triggers go off and I am sent into a deep depression whenever I see his car around town, which is all the time. I’m not ready yet to venture out and feel safe. I think I might have nailed something here. I have a great fear of him. Not so much that he will do something to me, but this wretched fear and this awful shame in that he KNOWS so much info about me that is deeply personal and private. I feel COMPLETELY raw and exposed just thinking of driving out and seeing him somewhere. I’m not yet ready to go deal with the possibility of seeing him right now. Just for right now. I think I need to do a little self care first before I attempt to venture out.
My daughter was very understanding about this and she and BF will do grocery shopping (he goes to the same stores), gas, etc, for a little while so I have a chance to recover a bit and to continue to integrate all the info about this man. I’m still dealing with some levels of hope and denial/bargaining and I’m aware of it.
I’ve heard in the past that it’s not healthy to isolate. I’m not so sure that’s so true right now for me. It’s part of my self care for the moment. It’s just too painful to add fuel to an already blazing fire.
What do you think of this?
Ox,
Your post is really good but somewhat triggering for me. I think anything that takes away from the truth of my experience is something I probably need to avoid. What I mean by that is that my ex POS has not been diagnosed a sociopath. If I doubt my experiences with him, with the things I read and see, it means I must be the crazy one, not him. Trying to integrate his behaviors under the umbrella of sociopath is extremely difficult for me, even though he checks off on just about every behavior known to a spath alive. I have to keep these things in check when *I read this stuff because not only does it invalidate my experience, it also creates the seeds of doubt to which I watered and grew each time I went back to him.
Do you know what I”m saying? It was denial that kept me there. Doubting that he’s an undiagnosed sociopath is just plain dangerous for me right now. I think I probably need to skip posts like that for awhile.
Dear Petite. As you have already crossed the Rubicon* with your “soon or not so soon to be X”, he must not come to your flat, in my humble opinion – if you are really planning to leave him. Else it would be playing along a game. Not my cup of tea, honestly speaking.
You have to be clear ABOUT HIM BEFORE he arrives and WITH HIM BEFORE the conference starts. Tell him that you made up your mind and that he must have already been noticing in the mails that you realized that it is the wrong thing at the wrong time. It is all you, and you are sorry to end it like this (some things are NEVER in good timing, be it a cancer diagnosis or breaking up). I am sure he is used to THOSE bad news!
I would book a decent hotel room and take him straight away from the airport to his hotel room, and not go with him to his hotel room. If he comes to your flat and you are alone with him (cave the hotel room too!), he will ensnare you, and you will be miserable afterwards.
Or you want to have THAT experience, learn it the hard way (in my opinion); being not so sure after all these lenghthy discussions, still in some doubt. Your choice and your responsibility, and YOU have to live with the consequences. You are a grown up. I will close now as my computer also finds it way too much to handle.
* Rubicon: a river in Italy where Cesar knew when he crossed THAT border there was no way back but he had to go ALL THE WAY to conquer Rome.
lesson learned, just thought of the following quote from the linked article after reading your post…
http://www.youmeworks.com/sociopaths.html
Do not doubt yourself. I know doubt is a healthy function in normal people but in this case, you have all the pointers and the facts. I don’t doubt you for a moment, so don’t do it to yourself! Getting a sociopath to submit to an interview by a psychologist is as likely as getting him to admit he is a bad person ( and even then, many psychologists have been fooled, having zero experience/understanding of diagnosing sociopathy. You’re probably better at spotting ’em than most are.). Unless you’re getting a court ordered psych eval. Chhhhyeahh… not gonna happen.
Dear Lesson learned,
I TOTALLY AGREE WITH DNancies! For purposes of our own relationships we do NOT HAVE TO HAVE A CERTIFIED COPY OF A PSYCHOPATHIC DIAGNOSIS!!!
We can BELIEVE someone is a psychopath, or not, it does not make any difference, THEY ARE POISON, THEY ARE TOXIC, THEY ARE DANGEROUS TO US. PERIOD!!!!!!
So many people come here and keep asking over and over and over “is he a psychopath or not?” THE ANSWER IS—IT DOES ****NOT**** MATTER. He is toxic, mean, hateful, dysfunctional, nasty, rotten, bad person, etc. etc.
As far as not being ready to face him right now, I understand that completely. BEEN THERE!!!!! Ran into my egg donor one day in Wal Mart and had a melt down. Ran into the X-BF-P in my community (he does not live here) at an auction I frequently go to and he “pretended nothing was wrong” walked up to me and said “Well, Hi, lady!” I about shiat myself! So I think all of us can relate to not wanting to bump into them unexpectedly at the grocery store.
You need to lower your stress level and that takes TIME and patience and being good to yourself, so work on that and that is a GOOD THING.
Fortunately, I am in a position where I live that I don’t have to interact with them or see them at the grocery store. I have gotten to the point now though that if I did I wouldn’t melt down any more, it wouldn’t be nice, but wouldn’t be a total melt down, so the time will come when you are less raw that you can tolerate some seeing him. (((hugs)))))
Ok, Oxy,
I’ll bite.
You’re son C – turns out to be a very talented sculptor and people all over the world contribute to his success by giving him a place to work and bringing him rare marble to work on.
You are not NC with him, but you still don’t trust him because he lied to you 30 years ago.
Katie Couric is interviewing you, and shows you some of the amazing work he has done. She asks your opinion. do you say, “I don’t trust him” or do you say, “great work, I really love my son, thank you to all the people who are doing so much to help him. He may not deserve another chance, but thank you to everyone who wants him to have one. God is certainly speaking to us today about how we treat each other and the miracles that he will bestow on us if we let him.”
As I watched the interview, I just expected one thing and kept getting a WTF? moment with each answer. It’s like it she was determined to keep her son as a black sheep and didn’t want him to break out of the mold. At the end of the interview even the interviewer was compelled to give Ted a mini-lecture about not letting everyone down, effectively reducing him to a child again. Then, with a completely different tone, he looked kindly at the mother and thanked her.
Oxy, I’m not judging you for the way your sons turned out. You did the best you could with what you knew. You also were not the only influence on their lives. Their father left you hi and dry when they were young. That was probably a large factor in their lives. I’m talking about people who never change. That is probably the best definition of a P. They never change. My exP actually said that to me. “I have not changed. I’m the same as I always was.”
Dear LL, the label of the people does not matter at all, it is the effect they have on you (there is an article in the archives about “toxic people”, you may search it; unfortunately I have to leave this thread as my computer refuses to load all the entries of this one; LF-congestion so to speak). Look in the mirror, and you see the toxic effects of those people, no matter whether they are “labelled” P/N/S or any other sign of the Alphabet.
And I think and I am a firm believer that it is perfectly oK to do some retreat and self care and give your daughter and her boyfriend the chance of returning some niceties to you. I am sure you did great things for them, else they would not be so supportive now. Consider it “return on investment” for your favors you did to them, if you want. So they can return some of it. And you know you can count on each other! And it might turn out to be the manure part in all the shit; my favorite: shit and manure are the same, it depends on its usage!
((((Hugs))))
Skylar, this is a quote from Dr. Liane Leedom about BloggerT,
This week I also had the honor of speaking with a man who calls himself BloggerT7165. He is probably the nation’s leading expert on antisocial behavior in women. He developed this expertise through personal, educational and occupational experience” – http://www.lovefraud.com/blog/2008/09/05/reflections-on-antisocial-behavior-part-1-when-women-are-sociopaths/
I also know this man’s expertise and his blog site, so do have a GREAT DEAL of respect for his opinions about assessment of psychopaths “in the wild.” (That is what the man does for a living anyway and has for years and worked in prisons and in hospitals)
BTW I happen to know as well that he is personally acquainted with this family in the real world, not just on what he has seen on television. You might also look at some of the OTHER videos of interviews with her, and keep in mind that a great many of the vids are edited to give a certain slant to them, or directed by questions aimed at a particular slant.
Dancing,
Great article and thank you for your input!!!