The connection between love and politics—that was the topic of commentary in yesterday’s paper written by Gregory Rodriguez, a columnist for the Los Angeles Times. The article, Love and politics in a cynical age, got me thinking about the consistency of behavior.
Rodriguez summarized how Americans have come to view the private lives and public lives of the people we elect to represent us. He wrote:
The truth is that we don’t generally associate politics or politicians with happy marriages and deep romance, let alone fidelity. The constant revelation of scandals and peccadilloes in the halls of power have trained us to expect the worst of those—particularly the men—we elect to shepherd and protect the interests of society. Somewhere along the line, Americans have even bought into the notion that a politician’s private life, in particular his love life, has little or nothing to do with his efforts on behalf of the public good.
In other words, people seem to think that just because an elected official cheats on his spouse, it doesn’t mean we can’t trust him with our tax dollars.
Not everyone holds this view. Ross Perot, who ran for president in 1992, famously said that at his company, EDS, lying, cheating, stealing and adultery were all grounds for dismissal. If he were elected, he said, the same standard would apply. Perot said:
“If a man’s own wife cannot trust him, how can the American people?”
This, I think, is a legitimate question.
Different behavior
People often ask me if a sociopath will be “different” with a particular person. For example, can a sociopathic man who hates and harasses his ex-wife love his children? Can a sociopathic woman who takes advantage of her family be true to her new boyfriend?
The short answer is no. Exploitative people exploit anyone who has something that they want.
The long answer is that exploitative people may seem to authentically care for particular individuals, but it’s probably just part of an overall scheme of manipulation. The sociopath is just softening up the target, preparing for the right time to strike.
Here is one of the most dangerous thoughts we can ever have: “Well, yes, he (or she) treated that person badly, but he’ll never do that to me!”
Remember: The best indication of future behavior is past behavior. If you know that a person has behaved in a deceitful or exploitative way towards someone else, sooner or later, the person will behave that way towards you.
Compartmentalize
So why do we compartmentalize? Why do people seem to believe that how our elected officials conduct their private lives has nothing to do with how they conduct their public lives? Why is it that when we hear of a powerful person who has a solid marriage, we are surprised?
Maybe we’re beaten down. Maybe we’re totally disillusioned. After all, stories of deceit, betrayal and treachery have been around as long as humans have told stories. Maybe we hear of so many scandals—from cheating spouses to tax dollars wasted—that we simply expect the worst of people.
Perhaps public life has simply gotten too easy in America. It’s not like the Revolutionary War, when men risked their lives and fortunes to stand up to the British. No, politics today is all talk and no consequences. That makes it an excellent career choice for sociopaths—all they have to do is be charming, charismatic and deceitful.
Sociopaths, after all, want power, control and sex. By getting elected, they have access to everything they want.
Liu Xiaobo
That’s why it’s so refreshing to hear about people, in this day and age, fighting the good fight from a foundation of love.
In the article that I quoted in the beginning of this post, the author, Gregory Rodriguez, also wrote about Liu Xiaobo. Liu is the Chinese dissident who recently won the Nobel Peace Prize. He, of course, was viewed as a subversive criminal by the Chinese government, and was not allowed to go to Norway and accept the prize. Rodriguez explained how his absence was handled in Oslo:
Actress Liv Ullmann read aloud the statement Liu released last December as he was awaiting trial for “inciting subversion of state power.” At the top, he sermonized against hatred (“enmity can poison a nation’s spirit”), but his ending was an exquisite love letter to his wife, Liu Xia.
“I am sentenced to a visible prison,” he wrote, “while you are waiting in an invisible one. Your love is sunlight that transcends prison walls and bars, stroking every inch of my skin, warming my every cell, letting me maintain my inner calm, magnanimous and bright, so that every minute in prison is full of meaning. But my love for you is full of guilt and regret, sometimes heavy enough to hobble my steps. I am a hard stone in the wilderness, putting up with the pummeling of raging storms, and too cold for anyone to dare touch. But my love is hard, sharp, and can penetrate any obstacles. Even if I am crushed into powder, I will embrace you with the ashes.”
Rodriguez viewed Liu’s words to his wife as a sign of passion and commitment, and the bad behavior in the private lives of elected officials as the opposite. The point, Rodriguez wrote, is that love begins at home.
How people conduct their private lives is absolutely relevant to whether or not they should be elected. People who cannot be trusted by their most intimate loved ones cannot be trusted by anyone. And people who feel genuine love and compassion for their families can extend their love and compassion for the greater good.
I thought Blogger T’s posts were a bit unsettling in that it seemed overly harsh in the way this person addressed sky.
It bothered me. Perhaps a projection on both parts? I don’t know?
I realize we shouldn’t label people without really knowing them first, however, when it comes to spath behavior, the only way to really know is to ENCOUNTER ONE PERSONALLY…..then you can see the signs a bit more clearly and can be a bit more objective. I would hesitate to label anyone based upon a video. Sky has given great advice and I have appreciated it.
BUt I do also respect Bloggers points, just not in the way they were articulated 🙂
Oxy, are you saying that by some strange coincidence Blogger is personally acquainted with Ted and Julia? Why didn’t he say that?
“It’s about secret things. The Destructive Narcissistic Parent creates a child that only exists to be an extension of her self. It’s about body language. It’s about disapproving glances. It’s about vocal tone. It’s very intimate. And it’s very powerful. It’s part of who the child is.”
from
http://narcissists-suck.blogspot.com/2007/06/your-narcissistic-mother.html
BTW, you forget that I lived with an evil one for 25 years.
I know their ways, intimately. I also have a mother who was/is destructive with LOVE, guilt and over-protection.
A long time ago you told me that I should leave the study of P’s to the experts. Then in another post you said that we, who have lived with them, know them better than those experts who are studying them in institutional settings.
The type of N that I study is one that will NEVER EVER be caught in an institutional setting. It looks like a nice little grandma or a priest in the movie “doubt”. Remember, that when the young nun asked the old nun, how she could be sure. She answered, “experience”.
“Mother”
Mother do you think they’ll drop the bomb
Mother do you think they’ll like the song
Mother do you think they’ll try to break my balls
Ooooh aah, Mother should I build a wall
Mother should I run for president
Mother should I trust the government
Mother will they put me in the firing line
Ooooh aah, is it just a waste of time
Hush now baby, baby don’t you cry
Mama’s gonna make all of your
Nightmares come true
Mama’s gonna put all of her fears into you
Mama’s gonna keep you right here
Under her wing
she won’t let you fly but she might let you sing
Mama will keep baby cosy and warm
Ooooh Babe Ooooh Babe Ooooh Babe
Of course Mama’s gonna help build the wall
Mother do think she’s good enough for me
Mother do think she’s dangerous to me
Mother will she tear your little boy apart
Oooh aah, mother will she break my heart
Hush now baby, baby don’t you cry
Mama’s gonna check out all your girl friends for you
Mama won’t let anyone dirty get through
Mama’s gonna wait up till you get in
Mama will always find out where
You’ve been
Mamma’s gonna keep baby healthy and clean
Ooooh Babe Ooooh Babe Ooooh Babe
You’ll always be a baby to me
Mother, did it need to be so high.
http://narcissists-suck.blogspot.com/2007/06/when-your-narcissist-mother-isnt-that.html
Description of the most covert kind of narcissist.
Notice that one of the ways to recognize it is, “the effect it has had on you”
Lesson,
You made a good point, you said:
I thought Blogger T’s posts were a bit unsettling in that it seemed overly harsh in the way this person addressed sky.
I’m sure everyone noticed it, but no one else mentioned it or took Blogger to task for it. Can we hazard to guess why that is?
You are new here and aren’t familiar with Bloggers’s place in the pecking order – your mistake. Oxy made sure that we should know that Lianne “approves” of Blogger, so we would understand that he can do no wrong, even when he is being BLATENTLY ABUSIVE WHILE POINTING TO ME AS AN ABUSER OF SOMEONE, WHO WILL NEVER BE AFFECTED BY MY WORDS.
How many times has it been said that there is no “cliques” or “pecking order” on LF and yet it continues in broad daylight when someone is blatently abusive and no one speaks up because that person is “so well liked”. It’s like all the gas lighting that I experienced with the exP comes flooding back.
But actually, I’m not too offended. It keeps me reminded of what is out there. Keeps me on my toes. thanks LL.
LL,
If that is how I came across than I am wrong and apologize for that. It is wrong to label someone with such little information. It is a different thing to talk about known behaviors such as killing dogs for fun. Saying how awful that act is and how mean that person is for doing that behavior is very different from giving someone a lifetime sentence of the absolute worst disorder you can. That person still could be but it is 100% impossible to know she is with the piece of video shown. There is a reason why, for example, tests like the PCL-R have a set of criteria for using it that include getting things such as collateral information from numerous sources and other stuff. Because it is easy to make a mistake because of the subjective nature of this whole issue. And making a mistake, either way, can be very bad. So yes talking about personal experience or what someone is relating about their personal experience is different than watching a few seconds of a video and giving someone the equivalent of a social death sentence.
As for personal experience, well if you read the post that Oxy linked you will see that I have had that as well. And I see all sorts of people (I work with both abused and abusers) and all sorts of just awful things. Stories that most people on here could nod their heads in understanding. I have worked with everything from predatory clergy to sweet innocent little grandmother who is a sadist in private. And yes a lot of abusive people slip through the cracks and get over on people.
As for being and “expert” because we have experienced them, that is both true and false. Just because we have experience someone with any disorder doesn’t mean we are an expert on everyone that has the disorder or the disorder itself because each situation is unique unto itself just like each person involved is unique unto themselves. The part we might, I say might, be experts on is our own situation and what happened to us and how we dealt with it and what was helpful to us. By sharing that it can hopefully help others figure out what would work for them. But just because I have had a heart attack doesn’t make me an expert in cardiology. It does, hopefully, give me insight and “expert” status on my experience.
Blogger,
You addressed LL. Very interesting.
are you apologizing to LL? for offending her?
Please reveal more, you have peaked my interest.
Sky,
There is no pecking order here with me. I am human and can make mistakes like anyone and LL did point out how she felt I came across. My fault”and I was writing while you posted that post.
As far as I know I am not “so well liked” by anyone on here other than maybe Oxy and trust me Oxy and I have some wonderful discussions and debates and don’t always see eye to eye. Of course she has never done a subtle suggestion about being a “covert narcissist” like you just did.
And no Sky I am not going to play the game with your “interest”. I addressed her in part of the post. If what I said was hurtful to you I did not mean it to comes across that way and apologize to you and that is my fault for wording it poorly.
Oh and Sky you are the one who made the comment and assumption about one day you will experience one and then”I think Oxy was just trying to show that maybe you had made a mistake in that assumption.
Of course nobody is any expert for having an experience with a desordered personality. I meant psychopathy is a very special disorder, many manage to appear sane, they feel more or less ok and they rarely go to a psychologist voluntarily, and this is the reason most psychologists have no real idea of what psychopathy is. Of course the theory is necessary. I needed the theory when i met with the quantity of strange pshychological resources and the strange behaviour of the sicko. And of course there must be non famous psychologist who know this pathology well. But i suspect they’re rather few.
Petite,
A lot of people here on LF has some great advice for you.. I am sure you see that. But again, until you chose to believe it” you wont. (I know this, because I am on the same boat as you). The truth of the matter is, if there was a better man in the picture, you would give two S***s about this spath. And yes Petite, you gave to know, he IS infact a spath. I know its hard to believe, its hard for me to believe that about my spath too.. but what makes me believe it more is the SYMPTOMS that WE as VICTIMS face”
1) Wanting to SAVE my spath
2) Wanting them to be more happier than us.
3) WILLING to give ANYTHING up for them (but you already know, he wont give up sheitt for you!)
4) CARING a lot more for them than they do about us.
5) Thinking and obsessing about them 24/7.
And A LOT MORE!!
Petite, you also wrote:
“I have also been thinking, all these posts, all this advice, but what I need to do is “Save me from myself.”why is that so difficult for me. why do I keep posting as if it looks like I am trying to get back my fantasy.why can I not change my thinking. It has changed, but not to the extent of you strong survivors, it takes time and inner strangth, I am working on it.please do not cut the cord with me as I do value your advice. I may sound like a stubborn lunatic, I am not,
I am just like all of you, just at a very painful troubled stage in my life.”
Listen to me! THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH YOU! What you are feeling is FINE. Its NORMAL, and it’s a SHARED emotion that a lot of us feel (myself, included, TRUST ME!! YOU SOUND JUST LIKE ME). What I see you doing is trying to convince us that he’s NOT THAT BAD” BUT HE IS. He really is. We cant make you come to terms with that, only you can do that!
I want you to do me and yourself a big favor. Please go and read my story on this page:
http://www.lovefraud.com/blog/2010/12/03/1001-things-i-did-wrong-in-dealing-with-a-psychopath/
Look under “lostnconfused” (it should be towards the bottom, but START from the beginning, where I say “this is my first time posting here”. READ all the responses form the people here, and tell me what YOU think of my situation. Because you will see the truth that I am not seeing” and THAT is the truth that we see for you as outsiders.
Help me too, Petite. I want your advice too. Because believe me, I am living in such a denial (like you). Please help me too! You’re a lot older than me and more experienced” I want to hear your thoughts on my situation. If you see something wrong with MY situation, then you should certainly see something wrong with yours. Notice how I go back and forth WITH MYSELF, trying to convince people here on LF, that my spath is “not that bad”. Just like you.
It’s a stage.
Sky-
As with most online “support” groups I’ve been apart of there IS a pecking order. I would agree with that and I’ve been victimized by it. My choice here is to learn to WORK with it in order to facilitate my healing, as well as develop a better understanding of sociopathy and my experience, but also to weed out dramas that have no place in my life, nor do I wish them too. I”m not going to assert myself into any dramas here. I personally have found this site the most helpful and right now, I CLING to it for support. Given the alternatives that I have been apart of in the past, I’ve not ONCE been booted for having a different opinion, nor have I felt unjustly scrutinized or taken to task (difference between being firm and being abusive), for sharing openly and honestly about what is going on within my SOUL and my HEART right now, even the DESIRE I have STRUGGLED with in wanting to go back on my no contact. IN fact, having shared all of those things here is a sort of reverse psychology for me. Actually having the ability to express those desires in a safe place, PREVENTS me from going back and the articles PROVOKE me to thought.
I get to make my own decisions about what is said or not around here. I care NOT for pecking orders. If I see that, I will NOT participate in that particular drama or thread, however, if I see a post that comes across as attacking or even marginally abusive, I have no problem addressing it. If it gets me kicked off the site, so be it, as I said, I don’t do “pecking orders” particularly online.
Blogger: I appreciate your comments and apology. I don’t disagree with you, but nor do I completely agree with you either. I do not take someone else’s “word” as God insofar as what another person is or isn’t. My preference is to judge for myself. I don’t go on others recommendations anymore. That’s part of what led me to my POS in the first place.
I feel comfortable labeling my ex POS accordingly, although there is bound to be an edge of denial left behind due to the experience. Part of what you’re saying in that I disagree, derives from the notion that someone cannot be “diagnosed” without clinical benefit. Part of why this site exists and symptoms of the disorder are reiterated repetitively is to be able to SPOT the disordered person when one encounters them. Education is knowledge is personal enpowerment and the probability that many lives will be prevented from a major catastrophy. One of the examples that could be given here is the ten signs you may be dating a sociopath. Excellent, yet simple overview of what to look for. Does that go to the notion that we should not label others based upon your work in this field? I agree that there are probably hundreds of scenarios, with the abused and with the abuser, however when we are talking personality disorders, despite different situations/circumstances we ARE, in fact, “labeling” as a result of symptoms that are quite universal. I’m okay with that too.
Sky, I don’t know that I’m necessarily offended as I think I just observed something that I felt was somewhat harsh in response in the form of what I saw to be attacking to an extent. That should never be tolerated, no matter where you are on the “pecking order” here.