By | November 16, 2011 120 Comments

Psychopaths and neuro-law

The brains of psychopaths are different. What does that mean for laws, crime, sentencing and treatment?

Read Psychopaths: Born evil or with a diseased brain? on

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Ox Drover

I talked to Dr. Keihl a while back about his research and conclusions. He was the o ne who told me that the AVERAGE score of all prisoners on the PCL-R is 22, that means half score higher than that and half score lower. Of course we know that about 25% score 30 or higher. When you realize that there are 2 MILLION people in the US right this minute in prison, that means that 500,000 of them score 30 or more on the PCLR and one MILLION of them score 22 or above on the PCL-R–which isn’t enough for a researcher to call them a “psychopath” but they are DEFINITELY BAD BOYS/GIRLs and if you keep- in mind that there are another 5 MILLION people on probation or parole, there are a large number of people in this country who would score fairly HIGH in the traits of disorders.

Dugan is of course one of the WORST OF THE WORST in terms of violence and lack of empathy. But he is NOT alone in his almost total lack of empathy or impulse control. There are many others just like him out in the world, both inside and out of prison.

I think there is a good bit of psychopathy that is hard wired, genetic, pre-programmed by both genetics and environment, but there are LEVELS OF IT from People like Dugan on down to the person who will eat the last piece of cake knowing you’ve not had any. Where do we draw the line in locking these people up for the “good of society” before they commit crimes? Where do we draw the line on commission of crimes and not allow a person a chance to redeem themselves?

Society has been plagued with these same questions forever. I’m not sure we will ever truly find an answer.


LOL……the ‘funny’ thing IS……who got the last word here……HE’s THE DEAD GUY NOW…..Right back atcha executed-dead guy- murderer-nonono……Fark YOU!!!!

Ox Drover

Donna, I think this man is on the level with Dugan, maybe worse, because he did what he did–planned it in advance–to hurt his wife by hurting her kids, that malice-a-fore-thought makes him much more dangerous and “evil” than Dugan who just didn’t “get it” that what he had done was “not okay.”

The giving the finger to the wife and to the world speaks volumes, and while I am in general no longer in favor of the death penalty, in this case I guess it was called for with no doubt at all that he was the one who did it.


Donna, Oxy – please correct me if I am wrong on this…

I take issue with Dr. Keihl and his idea that N/P/S people need treatment and that treatment can alter their behavior.

He states that Dugan’s suffering began young – but I would posit that Dugan is not truly capable of suffering. The monsters among us often (from what i have experienced/observed and noted from postings here) approach situations in which they are harming others – whether through direct physical violence or indirect behavior and words – almost as scientific observers. So I remember my N/P/S ex explaining how he was going to offer a spare room in his house to a guy he knew that was an alcoholic and in need of a place to stay – and he was going to get him to do a lot of essentially “slave” labor. When I protested that this was not a good idea he tried to appease me with an offer to send the guy to do work at my house too. UGH… And I also remember him saying and doing things so he could watch what other people’s reactions were – he would do this with his elderly mother and make fun of her behind her back often – and I know he did the same with me. I never saw him SUFFER – unless it was a narcissistic injury… But emotional loss, not really – usually it was feigned or done for manipulative purposes.

Therefore I find the idea of treatment a bit ludicrous unless you plan to develop some sort of brain surgery or treatment that enhances the weak areas and I am doubtful such a thing is possible – and it is fraught with danger as muddling with their brains may make them even more dangerous.

I find it rather narcissistic of the doctor that he thinks he can cure this. To prove he has “cured” the problem he will have to release back into the general population people that are very dangerous – further risking the lives of innocents – that would take great hubris and I am sure the doctor has no end of it.

I don’t know why but this whole idea and his approach of having sympathy for predators bothers me tremendously.


Dr. Khiel’s work is important, and that it makes psychiatrists argue that it’s a part of the psychopath’s brain that disables him from being a normal human being who empathizes, but I also raise several eyebrows on statements like these:

“Brian suffered at a very early age,” says Dr Kiehl. “He did classic things: he set fires, he hurt animals, he injured his brothers and sisters.”

Brian suffered at a very early age?!?! Sounds to me like the animals, brothers and sisters suffered!

I agree it would be great if they can find a therapy with children to develop their emotional processing brain.

“In essence, these children have to be painstakingly taught reactions which the rest of us have automatically.”

But that sounds like teaching children to mask. I have news for Dr. Kiehl, but psychopaths can mask and behave and respond properly when it’s to their advantage! They don’t need psychiatrists to teach them that as children.

Anyway, it does not sound like the therapy that would cure psychopathy, and if the doctors agree that the brain is so undeveloped on the emotional processing, and have no better solution than masking instead of actually developing that part of the brain, then I see their findings as an argument to change the law in so much that they separate the adult psychopaths from society and study them and try out all kinds of therapies to their heart’s content until they do find an ACTUAL treatment


EXACTLY darwinsmom! Exactly! Yes yes yes!!!!


Breckgirl, seems like we cross-posted, and we have the same issues with Dr. Khiel’s opinions and statements


LOL again 🙂

Another tragic story. Mother beats her 1-year old to death, then dumps him in a cemetery and reports him missing to police. This happened in the past 24 hours…


Donna, I have just emailed Dr.Kiehl, pointing out very respectfully what made me question the article, including the possibility that some of his statements may have been cut out of the article and whether he could explain the therapy ideas he has some more. I pointed out how it comes across as it is in the BBC article.

I also suggested that there is another research opportunity with regards to psychopaths and their lack of remorse: the enjoyment they might feel by hurting others.


I have wrestled with how I felt about the death penalty my whole life and I have come down on the side of anti death penalty mainly because I believed it did not allow for a person to become repentant about what they had done. Now that I have had first hand experience with a psychopath, I am back to wrestling with this issue. Oxy, when you state, “Where do we draw the line in locking these people up for the ’good of society’ before they commit crimes? Where do we draw the line on commission of crimes and not allow a person a chance to redeem themselves”, you really have expressed some of the core issues. Where is the line between voluntary behavior and involuntary because of something organically wrong with the brain? And how do we measure it, define it, quantify it, prevent it, protect innocent people from it?? God help us!

Before I married a psychopath I believed that every single person had something good (love) at their core that could be nurtured and drawn out, and that good (love) could transform them into stronger, better, more loving people, God help me…I’m not so sure of that anymore. The quote from Dr. Kent, “I tend to see psychopaths as someone suffering from a disorder, so I wouldn’t use the word evil to describe them” has not lived with a psychopath and experienced first-hand how they intentionally, with malice and forethought and without a shred of compassion or remorse abuse, hurt, kill, destroy, use and abuse good people that actually love and care for them! When I read the article about the man that murdered his own sons while they slept…I see evil, pure evil! His own children…while they slept…sometimes I think the death penalty is appropriate. And I don’t have the words to express to you how that realization deeply pains my soul. As far as I am concerned nothing does a better job of describing this heinous behavior better than EVIL! Personally, I have no problem calling that behavior evil! NO PROBLEM AT ALL!


I explained Dr. Kiehl what makes people call psychopaths evil imo… it is not the lack of remorse or the lack of empathy, but the enjoyment and glee they express when they hurt others.

Someone who suffers from autism might do wrong, migth hurt someone, but it is a) unplanned b) they get no personal satisfaction or enjoyment from it. But a spath does!

And that is what is EVIL imo

Ox Drover


The problems I think arise in trying to diagnose a CHILD as a “problematic” child BEFORE it is “too late” and the brain IS “set in concrete” — in workiing with kids in IN-PATIENT settings I have seen kids as young as 7 to 10 that were/are DANGEROUS that you would not be safe going to sleep with those kids in the house unless they were locked up. Kids who show GLEE at setting fires and hurting others, and show NO remorse, shame or guilt at all. They ONLY respond to superior force.

That woman who sent her adopted 12 year old son back to Russia on the plane, I have no doubt was experiencing the same hair raising on the back of her neck that I experienced in working with these kids.

I know that parents who have children by a psychopath, or have the genes in their blood to pass on to a child (like I obviously did) worry about what they can do to help their child…and of course NO child comes with a guarantee that they will turn out to be a “good person” or pleasing to the parents.

Since most babies are given to young parents, I know I sure didn’t know much about raising a baby when I got my first child in my arms, and still didn’t know much when I got my second in my arms….but I did the best I could to be a parent to my kids, to love them and nurture them to the best of my ability.

When I got to the stage where my son Patrick was “acting out” roaming the streets at night, stealing, etc. I HOPED it was just teenage rebellion that would “pass” when he got some “sense” and I hoped to be able to prevent him from ruining his life completely before he “got some sense.” I held on to that malignant HOPE that he would be okay, even after the first and second arrests, then after the two years for felony, and then even after he was arrested and convicted for murder.

Why do we hang on to that malignant hope? that denial in the face of such EVIDENCE? Because we LOVE our children, we want the best for them. We don’t want to give up. We think we can fix them if we just FIND THE RIGHT THING to say or do.

Could my son have been “fixed? Until he was 11 he was as far as anyone could see a “perfect” child at home and at school. Then one episode of stealing….but I don’t know many kids who haven’t stolen something in their lives —so while I took it seriously, I didn’t think it showed he was a psychopath by any means…even if I had KNOWN what a psychopath was at that point, which of course I didn’t. So if there was a chance he could have been “fixed” it occurred, I think, long before I even suspected I had a problem with him. Now, (head shaking here) there is NO hope of him being fixed.

Liane Leedom is a fortunate mother with her young son by her psychopathic ex husband. She is a trained mental health professional, she is an experienced mother, and she knows what a psychopath is, and she started with her son at a VERY EARLY AGE. If it can be done, I think her son is a perfect experiment, and I wish her well and send my prayers for her and her son.

But those in the prisons, they are only “lab rats” as far as I am concerned, and I think the experiments with them are productive and necessary for learning about the disorder, but I do not feel a great deal of sorrow for them, or think that they should be released with compassion upon the rest of society. I don’t think they are “suffering” in the common sense of the word.

Ox Drover

Here’s another article about empathy and genes.


Yes, I agree, I watched my ex delight in deceiving people no matter how deeply it hurt them! That is what makes them evil! So narcissistic, so selfish that they don’t have a speck of compassion for other people!

Looking back I am now aware of a possible psychopathic child that I once knew. I used to work as a teacher’s aide for a small public school that had kindergarten and 1st grade students only. There was a 1st grade student that would talk about crushing his pet hamster and hearing the bones crunch, obviously a problem…it was very disturbing to both the teachers and the other students. I would remove him from the table and talk to him about it and how it bothered the other kids and he kept doing it. It was a big problem. There were lots of meetings with the parents. One day on the playground the kids were lining up to return to class and this boy was in line and another boy stood in front of him, he became so enraged at the other boy that he started strangling him. I ran to rescue the kid and I had a very difficult time pulling this kids hands off the neck of the other boy. He was only in the first grade and it took all my strength to get his hands off that other child. The boy was still throwing a fit and threatening the line jumper even after I got his hands off of him. It was the first and only time I picked up the violent boy and carried him to the office. I was very disturbing. Obviously this child has some very serious issues, but now, looking back, I think he may be a psychopath.

Ox Drover


I also wrestled with the death penalty, and since the DNA evidence that has proven DOZENS of people on death row were not only “not guilty” but were actually INNOCENT of the crimes they were sentenced for, I have reversed myself on it.

BUT…I do believe in the “three strikes (felonies) and you are out” laws. I wish that they would be ENFORCED completely.

Especially ones that involve sex and/or violence.

I understand your being disturbed by the kid attacking another kid. A older child once attacked my oldest son, and she took her fingernails and tried to gouge out my son’s eye balls with the INTENTION OF BLINDING HIM, she later admitted it to me. She has grown up to be a person I have NO doubt is a psychopath, and knowing what I know now, I realize her biological father AND her mother were both psychopaths as well.

Of course, with that being the case…who is going to raise these kids from infants? We have too many kids in foster homes now, and too many kids without any place to go, so what would we do with the kids of someone we thought might be a psychopath and the kids might have the genes to be a psychopath? Especially if the parents haven’t committed any crimes? WHO is going to be SOLOMON and make these decisions?


I once had a pupil who seemed a risk. In Belgium kids at elementary school and high school HAVE to follow 2 hours a week of religious classes. Catholic private schools of course give only 2 hours of Catholicism. But public schools provide all the official religions of the parents’ choice, including secular humanistic hours for people who are non religious. It is kind of a philosophy-ethics-debate class. I was a secular humanistic teacher for one schoolyear couple of years ago: subjects range from sexual and identity development, but also societal issues such as death penalty, abortion, racism, violence, … And this yuong teen of 16 years was in my class. He obviously found it a stupid class and didn’t want to cooperate. The student coaches told me he was a risk case in their eyes of one day arriving at school with guns and end up shooting people. They told me that his parents were divorced and his father was his chief guardian. The father was religious in a christian belief that is not officially recognized in Belgium and for which there are no religious classes. They were very strict and he was beaten with the belt. He apparently had a stash of teen clothes and IPod hidden in a forest en route to school so he could change his attire without his father knowing it.

So, when it was time to do the violence topic, I opted to focus on random violence where someone ends up massacring people out of the blue, and had the teens propose reasons for it why it could happen. He was quite silent that lesson and very attentive. I remember that at some point a line of thought in the discussion even animated him, as if he was recognizing certain issues.

But eventually that next follow-up lesson he told the whole class that his real wish was to become a hired assassin (next option was the army). He did not say this for shock effect, but said it soberly and it came across as if he meant it. He confessed to not having any emotions for people in general, not liking them (except for his girlfriend and mother), and that he felt no dislike against killing people. So it seemed reasonable to him to make money out of it. Of course the other pupils were totally outraged and tried to debate with him on how unethical and wrong that was, but I told them that in that class he had the right to express his opinion on topic as much as them and that it was important to really listen to him.

He was not into misschief, but I would compare him to the psychopathic character in There Will Be Blood. He was definitely mysantropic and cold. And yet after that class he started to treat me with respect. He expressed positive emotions for his mother and girlfriend, very loyal even. Maybe he was dead inside because of the abuse, rather than that he was born with it. But I do think he’ll end up a sociopath who can function highly.

Ox Drover

Darwin’s mom,

That “dead inside” kind of person is scary, but the one who “gets glee” out of doing harm, causing pain to others is also scary.

The boy you described who said he was attached to his mother and his girl friend, if he were a psychopath though, may have viewed these women as “possessions” rather than “loved” them in the sense that a non psychopath does. Of course he may not have been a psychopath either…but he definitely sounded troubled.


I have been thinking about tells and clues a lot today…Another thought, My ex sent me this song in and email when he was trying to pull me back into relationship with him. This song is his idea of an apology! Whenever I hear this song anywhere is stops me in my tracks, a trigger for traumatic memories, for me this song will always be about a evil psychopath and if your significant other ever thinks that there is anything “romantic” about this song…RUN, RUN, RUN!!

When I think back his favorite art, music, movies and poetry were big clues about his inner life or lack thereof!

I can’t seem to get the link to work. The song is “Creep” by Radiohead!


That’s interesting. My spath called himself, “the creep”. In fact, he even signed one of his apology cards, “the creep”. That was way back in the beginning when he would always apologize after being a creep.

Actually, I think it was me that first started calling him a creep. I meant it as a “term of endearment” but the fact that I came up with such a STRANGE term of endearment for my lover, tells me that my subconscious was SCREAMING at me. But I wouldn’t listen.

Well, he seemed to have really taken to that “pet name”, so much so that he signed the card that way. Oh, and he spelled it correctly. Yeah, it was a tell.

You know, they should teach a class in grade schools: Psychopathic tells 101.

It would save us so much heartache and money.



You said something interesting.

“I explained Dr. Kiehl what makes people call psychopaths evil imo” it is not the lack of remorse or the lack of empathy, but the enjoyment and glee they express when they hurt others”.

I think this is interesting – you’re drawing a distinct uniquie thng out – that they get enjoyment or glee from it.

Is that real?

Is there consensus on this?

In all the work that I have read, Dr. Leedom on this site, Hare, the other stuff, I don’t recall any of them calling out GLEE on top of the other attributes.

Ox Drover


Some psychopaths SEEM TO ME to be “unaware” of any damage they do to someone else…but others seem to totally get GLEE out of causing pain to others. There are some conversations here on LF about that aspect of “glee” and Dr. Simon Baron-Cohen in his measuring of empathy on a bell-curve talks about how autistic individuals don’t have much empathy, but they don’t ENJOY hurting others, where as psychopaths may also have NO empathy, but they seem to enjoy hurting others. So yes, the researchers have taken notice of the “glee” aspect of psychopathy, at least some of them in some circumstances.


does Dr. Baron-Cohen actually discuss the glee? I’m surprised.

I’ve been thinking more and more about autism-spectrum people and I wonder if it isn’t possible to be in that spectrum and ALSO a spath. Could a high functioning asperger enjoy hurting others?


Darwinsmom – I too have seen the glee when one in particular would “get something over someone” and they would think the other person a chump for being naive or honest etc… but that “glee” was not consistent – what was definitely consistent is that – for all the N/S/P’s I’ve known (too many) – no matter what it was about them – they only did something (give a gift or took an action) for others for usually two reasons – to make themselves look good to a larger audience rather than for the express benefit of another – ie: it needs to be public or something they could brag about (hence the hockey rinks you see on women’s hands) or helps make others think they are generous, kind, etc… OR it was an ” I’ll do this for so and so as I know then they will feel obliged to do such and such for me ” – it was bait and the payback/give was always much larger than the payoff/get….

I have real difficulty with the idea that you can intervene early enough with many at the farther end of the scale – I really thinks it depends on where one would fall on the PCL-R rating or some system – ie: higher the score less likely any ability to be redirected early in life… The lower score that is still high in lack of empathy etc – that might be what you could call a Shadow Syndrome – ie: not full blown, still damaging and often why so many of them pass muster for awhile and the damage is insidious and not over to such a degree – they are able to blend in and it is death for the rest of us by a thousand cuts from them….

I have a member of my family who at age 5 started showing signs – no one in my family would believe it if I called it what it is but my mother said for years – I am waiting for the day he hits his mother (my sister)… Now because he is smart an has developed manners my mother thinks he is ok – he isn’t any different – just more subtle about it. He had all the cousins together this summer and he got them to play Russian Roulette with a toy gun. Toy gun today – real gun in 4-6 years I bet. And he knows how to make it look like one of the other kids is responsible for whatever happens. I keep my kids away from him.


Ooops – in previous post the biggest feature to me is that they are entirely self interested. Their needs and their needs lobe are what matter – like a parasite they will live off of others and move from a host when they have sapped it of everything they can get or when a juicier host presents itself…

Ox Drover

Sky, yes, Baron-Cohen talks about the levels of empathy on a bell curve, and the lower end (loss empathy) has autistic and psychopaths both in the (relative) “zero” level –he calls the autistic Zero-positive and the psychopath zero-negative because FEW if any of the autistics seem to ENJOY hurting others, they are more UNaware of hurt to others, but the psychopaths realize they are hurting others and seem to find enjoyment in the pain caused, rather than by just not realizing they are causing pain.

I highly recommend reading the book “The Science of Evil” by Baron-Cohen, it has a GREAT DEAL of information for us who are interested in studying psychopathy and/or the lack of empathy.

Ox Drover

Breck-Girl, I knew a girl, a kid in the neighborhood who was all about getting the OTHER KIDS TO THROW ROCKS, but she never was the “guilty” one.

Ox Drover

Sky, here is the link to the book review, I really DO think this is one of THE best books on empathy, or lack of it. Great research, good information.


The way my ex got his enjoyment was to be evil to me. to be mean and cruel. that was his game he enjoyed playing. To inflict pain and cruelty on me that was what his definition of a good time was.


My ex spath had a glee-little devil’s face. I knew when he was up to be a pester demon to someone else. One time he even showed glee in his eyes as he planned to do something to his dad (shame him in front of me), before he actually did it. It was because of hte glee in his eyes that I instantly realized what he was about to do, and a few seconds later he did it, then removing the glee from his eyes again and with a neutral face lie “oh sorry, I’m so clumsy. It was an accident.” But the glee in his eyes betrayed it had been planned. It was no accident.

I told my therapist about this incident, and before I could mention it, she herself asked wondered aloud for confirmation on him having gleeful eyes over it.

Hare’s list does not mention glee or enjoyment, because those are emotions. The list doesn’t mention envy and anger either. It’s a list of behaviour elements.

But oh my, my ex spath derived the greatest private, personal enjoyment over doing wrong.

The problem for the glee and enjoyment is that you need to witness it at the moment they are doing the harm, and they must not be aware they’re being watched. If I saw it, I usually saw it when he was either drunk or other drug influence, because he then had less control over his face to appear ‘good’/’angelic’/’neutral’. But he was totally sober when he shamed his father in front of me. He was too angry with his father to be aware I was watching him. But I could read the plan and intention of what he was about to do right from his eyes, shining brightly with inner enjoyment. But as soon as it happened, he masked his face.

I don’t see a reason why spaths would betray this private enjoyment to psychologists in prison.


Hello Everyone. It’s been awhile since I have visited this site. Think of everyone often. I got my house back from the bank. They finally refinanced me after 3 yrs. Miracle.

Oxy, I have a question. I happen to think of you and maybe you can help.

Our 7 month old kitten ran out of the front door the other night. She ran across to the lake and evidently fell into the lake. A car stopped, (hero) and redirected traffic. Darla (our black kitten with yellow eyes) was laying in the road hurt. She was hit by a car.
We took her to ER and got her out of shock. She has a cracked pelvis, which can heal they say. But her right front paw has a cracked humerus. We have her home on pain meds. My 17 yr old made a sling to keep the paw from dangling. She is eating, drinking and urinating. Good sign. We have her in a laundry basket with blankets.

We are all sad here and devastated. My girls have even missed school, esp the youngest. SHe is still in shock.

Do you have any advice? We are hoping the bones fuse together and she can thrive, even if she can’t walk ever again. I can’t stop crying,esp when I am alone.

This is awful.


Hello Tobehappy – I think your kitten will be just fine with lot’s of tlc, talk with your vet about the broken humerous, I had a cat one time with three leg’s and she lived a long good life. So sorry for your sadness,,,I lost one of my wiener dogs a few months ago and I still miss him..
good news about your home…~!


Oxy, I ordered the book that you mentioned to Sky about the origins of evil. I am looking forward to reading it.

The concept of a spath experiencing GLEE when they hurt somebody is new to me. I hadn’t explored it before.

I am processing this now.

I do remember when my spath was wanting to tell me that he was going to get remarried to his ex-wife. He was gleeful about that. His behavior was clearly abnormal and excited. He wanted to stage the scene, tell me, watch the drama. He wanted me to be in pain and to react. But I didn’t even let him tell me about it – I suspected what he was going to say and do, and I didn’t give him the stage, I refused to engage
in any dialogue with him.

He also cheated on me, and there was a “tell”. He asked me for my business card, to give to a “friend” who needed a job. He thought I should hire this “friend”. The said he gave my business card to this friend, but…THEN he kept texting me about this friend, saying she had a “hot little yoga body”.
I knew right then, and I stopped the conversation right then.
He was enjoying taunting me.

So I do see some signs of GLEE.

There were other times however where his cruelty to me was more about INDIFFERENCE to me as a human being.

There were other times where his indifference was due to his SELFISHNESS – he was engulfed in something WAY more interesting, and so I was ignored.


My ex expressed glee when he verbally abused his co-workers and friends, and a few random women with whom he was not romantically entangled. His abuse of me was done with indifference, at least when I was around. He might have cackled maniacally about it as soon as I left, who knows?


Thank you Hens! SOSOSO SORRY about your dog! Animals are truly our best friends.
I am feeling so much guilt about letting her out of the house. That night, she ran out under my feet and I thought she was only going to hang out on the porch. She usually doesn’t cross the street to the lake. I feel so sad still. Her pelvis will heal but the humurous bone is the worry now. Its her front leg. We are so lucky she is even alive. Cars fly down my street all day like its Raceway park. Its a main road winding around a huge lake. God I feel so badly!

I’m glad I’m no longer with the X. He didn’t like animals or show any affection for them. He would have gone off on me about how I shouldn’t have pets being a single mom…blah blah blah.

I didn’t mean to take up space here but I know that people on here are compassionate and I need moral support right now.

So, thank you! HUGS

Ox Drover

2BHappy, I am sorry about your little kitty’s accident if the vet didnt’ notice the broken leg, it may need to be set in a splint for it to heal right, so I would take her back for that. The pelvis will heal but she will be really SORE for 4-6 weeks, the first 2-3 beiing the worst. it will be hard for her to dig in her sand box so she may not cover things up well. ((((Kitty)))))) and ((((2B & Kids))))


Oxy, sorry to hear about your dog. It’s always so hard to see that loving darling who’s been with you through so many moments in your life, while they are so innocent and dependent on you. It’s like for a long while they are still there as a memory, turning around the corner and following you around.

2bhappy, so sorry about your kitten. The poor kitty in pain. It’s so hard to see them suffer. It breaks your heart. But with care she’ll make it. And yes, even if she loses a paw, she is so young she can learn to walk on three legs fine. Let’s just hope her paw will set and heal too! It is amazing how with good care they can be so resilient. Give her lots of hugs and kisses for me to help her heal as quickly as can be. And a big hug from me to you too.

Ox Drover

Darwinsmom, it has been a bit over a year since I lost my “best dog” from a heart attack, and I still miss him terribly. Thank you for your care. He was my “doggie soul mate” if I ever had one, though I’ve loved all the dogs in my life, he was a special one, we could read each other’s minds. The people and the animals in our lives who are super special are something that help us through all the trials and tribulations on this planet.


Hello friends;
I am feeling much better today, no anxiety… I did have a migraine last night. I was able to talk to the detective this morning, it had nothing to do with ex-P being at court today. I didnt have to attend unless I get summoned by DA. Anyhow, the detective wanted to know if I still wanted to press charges against my ex for violating restraning order… DUH! — So, I am feeling much better today. Thank you all. I will find out later today or tomorrow if the jerk pleaded “not guilty” to the assault charges…

Ox Drover

Dear Alina,

GOOD FOR YOU!!!! A big TOWANDA!!!! too.

Glad your migraine is over and today looks brighter!




Thank you! When no-one else understands what is going on with me… I can always count on all of you! —- My co-workers were just telling me get over it already… let it go. I know they mean well but they just dont understand that there is so much more to it. My ex is EVIL and has done EVIL things. I am just protecting myself and hopefully others.

The good thing about migraines is that I feel so much better and energized once they are gone!


tobehappy – my grey mister had a crushed pelvis when he was about 5 and he healed wonderfully and went on to live another 13 years. It took quite a while – he was in a cage or 12 weeks before i could let him move about.

2 of the things that helped quite a lot: for shock, bach flower ‘rescue remedy’ (for me and him!) – i would rub a couple of drops into each of his ears; and at the point that he could come out of the cage and move around a bit, reiki. he lacked energy and i was begging to really worry about him. reiki perked him right up.

my vet at the time was excellent (although the first 24 hours he spent in emerg…why do these things always happen in the middle of the night??). she gave him anti-oxidants that really helped when the stiffness set in as he aged. with those and the homemade diet he was really spry until his death (kidney failure).

I am glad this wonderful stranger found your cat and took him in – let’s hear it for the good guys! I would take him in about his leg though – he needs it to be steady when he starts to move around again.

Be patient – it may take awhile for him to heal. Keep an eye on his peeing – bladder or urethra injury can become an issue with pelvis injuries. Good luck to you both.

Ox Drover

Alina, I’ve only had ONE migraine type head ache in my life and I sure don’t want another one! It was worse than a toothache and I’ve had plenty of those even with plenty of and expensive dental treatment…

I agree that your friends don’t understand and trying to explain it to them is like trying to tell a color blind person about the colors in a painting, they are just not going to be able to “see” it.

It is nice to know though that at least on LF you can know you are NOT ALONE in this and that there ARE people out there in “Cyber land” that DO understand the devastation you have been through.

When you have the feelings that you are alone, or panic, then come here and post and just BREATHE in and out one breath at a time til the bad feeling goes away. We are here for each other and that is really special! (((hugs))))


Oxy, Darwin and Onejoy…
Thank you so much for your support! When the vet saw the pelvis, he recommended the 6wks caged …on heating pad. But, when he saw the shattered humerous bone….he said to euthanize her. Its torn in half…the bone…from the shoulder to elbow.
My genius 17 yr old did research. You can’t splint that bone. So we put the paw against her body and wrapped it…like a sling. This way it wont dangle and break more.

omg…this is so sad. We have her confined to a laundry basket wrapped in blankets. She pees in there and we are waiting for a poop. Hopefully soon.

She can’t move..only roll over a bit and cries out when she does. OMG…I feel her pain! (I KNOW I am not a sociopath!…I have sympathy pains in my body for HER!!) lol

And this whole experience brings back memories of my final decision to divorce the sociopath I married. In fact, I am writing a book called: “…….And then my kitten died”. That is the name of the book.

You see, long story short….while I was trying to separate from the xhusb socio….I went out to the store…had to SNEAK out as he walked in….because he never let me go out without taking all three children!…

It was the first time I ever did that. When I came home, my little girls were hysterical. He threw our new kitten down the stairs.

I didn’t take it to the vet because he wouldn’t give me any money. (he controlled it all). So, I waited and then she died!

I was a wreck! Felt totally responsible for her death. It took me a very long time to get over the fact that HIS control over me and MY life…by witholding our “family money”…..caused that kitten to die.

It was the LAST f&cking straw! I filed divorce a day later and …the rest is history.

So, now, even though I am broke, since I refinanced my house and have a huge mortgage payment every month….at least I can make my own decisions and I just hope Darla survives.

Anyway…..I have cried so much already.

Thank you for caring!!!! HUGS


Yes, most friends are understanding, but I don’t tell them more than once, except for my two best friends. Actually my best mate understands, because he recognizes a lot in my story in his first boyfriend. And my mother is a great listener as well. Though I open up about it only slowly. I know she sometimes lies awake when I reveal something else he did, and I don’t think I could tell all about him. It would just hurt her too much. I don’t tell my dad much either, because he’s so anxious about me that he wishes me to forget as soon as possible, and starts telling me what to do otherwise. It’s best to come here for more in depth outing, and in therapy, and perhaps one very good, understanding and patient friend.

I hate it though when I get triggered. I don’t get triggered privately anymore, not by memories. But I get triggered sometimes in real life situations while in company. I HATE that! All of a sudden I realize I must seem like a headless chicken, and then I feel bad and apologetic to people.

Ox Drover

2 be happy,

Your son is right, in humans when that bone is broken it is put in a sling letting the weight of the arm hold the bone more or less in place to heal.

If the bone is split down the middle however, I am with your vet about putting her down, the pain is probably unbelievable, and the chances of it healing at all are probably slim to none. I know it hurts to let them go, but sometimes it is the kindest thing to let it be over quickly rather than for them to suffer for a longer time and then they die from infection or shock after suffering more. Call and talk to your vet again, I can’t imagine a vet recommending putting an animal down if there was hope it would recover. (((hugs))))


Oh Oxy, they do! My friends cat fell and he brought it to the vet and it had a broken back and both back legs. The vet said…put it to sleep.
He refused. He put it in a shoebox and in four weeks it was walking around. It was only 3. It lived to be 13!

I have to take a chance to see if she will heal. Even if she can’t walk on it again…
My girls are so attatched to her. I am going to give it time. I know the pelvis will heal. I am not sure what will happen to the front. SHe is sleeping still all day. Nonmovement is key.


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