I plan to review for you a very recent paper: Psychopathy as a disorder of the moral brain. Dr. Robert Hare is one of the authors. But, before I can get to explaining the moral brain part, I have to get past the first paragraph, so the moral brain will be have to be discussed more next week. As I sat down to translate this paper into plain English, I got stuck at the fourth sentence:
“Antisocial behavior by itself is a nonspecific symptom common to many conditions, so psychopathy and antisocial personality disorder (ASPD, American Psychiatric Association, 1994) are not analogous constructs while most cases of ASPD (sociopathy) do not fulfill the interpersonal and affective criteria for psychopathy (Hare, 2003; Ogloff, 2006) the behavioral features observed in these individuals are best explained by their level of psychopathy (Forth et al., 1996).”
O.K. let me get this straight, psychopathy and antisocial personality disorder are not the same thing so a sociopath is not a psychopath BUT to the extent that a sociopath is a sociopath, it is because he/she is a psychopath! Now, how are we supposed to understand that so we can start discussing the important point—the moral brain?
The first sentence of the paper sheds light on what the author is really trying to say, “Psychopathy is a personality disorder defined by a constellation of interpersonal, affective, and behavioral/lifestyle features, including manipulation and deception, grandiosity, shallow emotions, lack of empathy and remorse, an impulsive, irresponsible lifestyle, and the persistent violation of social norms and expectations.” What he should have said in the fourth sentence is that many people psychiatrists diagnose with sociopathy using the DSM do not score above 30 on the psychopathy inventory (PCL-R), so that by a strict definition they are not psychopaths. To give you some background about why there is an argument here please read Psychopath and Antisocial Personality Disorder: A Case of Diagnostic Confusion by Dr. Hare. He reports that the interpersonal behavior and emotions of psychopaths best define them. He objects to the fact that these are not emphasized enough in the current definition of ASPD, which places too much emphasis on antisocial behavior.
These arguments took place some time ago before it was discovered that both sociopathy (ASPD) and psychopathy are a spectrum. Before that time Dr. Hare said that “psychopaths” were those who scored more than 30 on his scale. But since that time we have discovered that many people who score between 20 and 30 on the tests have the same physical and brain abnormalities as those who score over 30. So in reality a person is not a sociopath or a psychopath a person simply possesses traits of these disorders to a high degree. The higher the degree of psychopathy the more likely it is that a person will have an abnormal moral brain. If we look at a group of people and do a correlation between the degree of sociopathy as measured by the DSM criteria and the degree of psychopathy as measured by the PCL-R there is a high correlation between the two. So your worst sociopath is also your worst psychopath. Rather than being an argument over trying to separate apples and oranges, this is an argument over how to best define an apple (or a bad apple depending on how you look at it).
Psychopathy and sociopathy are really patterns of extreme brain and endocrine function that we infer from observing a person’s behavior. The real question is which behaviors are most indicative of this extreme physiology? If you read the scientific literature you will discover that many individuals who score between 20 and 30 also have aberrant brain and hormonal function. So the problem is not criteria, the problem is the cut off score of 30 which is in my opinion too high. There are a couple of studies indicating people with scores as low as 12 might have abnormal moral brains. If the cut off for psychopathy is lowered to 20 or 25 there is considerably more overlap between the PCL-R and the DSM.
I happen to agree with Dr. Hare that his scale is better at identifying individuals high in psychopathic/sociopathic traits. But I don’t think he should stop at the PCL-R which is a test only specially trained clinicians can administer. He has also developed the P-Scan which is a 90 item test that anyone can use to rate another person’s psychopathy. I have used this scale and believe that if this was accepted as the rating scale for psychopathy/sociopathy everyone would be able to identify those high in these traits. Isn’t that what we should do? Why should the identification of morally insane people be only reserved for highly trained clinicians?
I also think we should get away from assuming sociopathy and psychopathy are categories that people either do or do not belong to. There are many instances where just a few psychopathic traits can do serious damage. Damaging people can have some of psychopathic traits and not others.
When psychopathic traits interact with a specific situation or opportunity to do harm there is likely to be trouble. An example of a trait-situation interaction is when a highly psychopathic person is a parent or spouse, or a boss. If the highly psychopathic person has low power and low situational opportunities for harm, he/she is less of a problem to society. Similarly society needs leaders and parents to be low in psychopathic traits because in these situations just a few traits bring out harmful behavior. If we focus on traits we can begin to discuss situation and trait interactions. If we focus on the traits, we will avoid making the mistake of saying, “He/she isn’t a sociopath, so he/she is O.K.” The authors are correct in saying that evil behavior is best predicted by the presence of psychopathic traits, irrespective of whether there is a “formal diagnosis” of psychopathy.
What I would like to see is studies of physiology using the P-Scan completed by relatives who know the subject well as an assessment. Although the question of what is different about the physiology of psychopaths/sociopaths is very important, it is not the only or even most practically important question. If psychopathy can only be identified by a few highly trained people, what good is the construct? But if we had a behavioral or psychological test that nearly anyone could use, and that test was related to abnormal physiology then it would be highly useful to humanity.
Furthermore, there are numerous hormonal and brain findings associated with psychopathy and sociopathy. It is likely that these findings relate to specific traits. For example, high testosterone is related to unrestricted sociosexual orientation, power motivation and impulsivity but is less related to low affection. In this regard, the P-Scan is very good because the 90 items examine psychopathic traits in detail. Next week, psychopathic traits and the moral brain.
I totally agree, do not feed the TROLL. I hesitated to say that –I guess my “people pleasing” side again! LOL Afraid to ‘offend” another blogger–but I guess as a “self confessed” socipath we don’t need to worry about “offending him” now do we? LOL
Actually most of his arguments are so sophmoric as to be funny!
My P-son is like that, so proud of his “control” and his “mask” which actually is at this point pretty transparent. LOL
Oh well, this is the last mention I will have of him, or discussion of anything he says. As long as we don’t feed him, he will try for a while to get a “rise” out of someone, and when eventually he gets nothing he will fade away like all the Ps do and try to find a more accomodating audience.
Most of the people who did respond to him were the people who are fairly new to the concepts and thoughts and behaviors of Ps, so I can definitely see why they wanted to converse with one…but the problem is, it is like I said about the two men, one always lied and one always told the truth. They would both give the same answer to the question, are you the liar? LOL
Frankly I’m not sure what else to say. Ultimately I may disappear from this site. Considering all of the people who do not want me here I really don’t have a reason to stay. Keeping up with all the negative opinions about me is not an easy task.
You may not appreciate what I have to say. Others appear to actually gain something from my words. Using your opinion as a basis for change may not end up be beneficial to me.
With that said I feel like I can move on with the rest of what I have to say. If it makes you feel better about your lives to ignore a helping hand then I say go for it. I would actually prefer that you ignore me if you are only going to be negative. Obviously you have nothing to gain from my words because you understand. There are others out there who may not understand and yes I believe I may be helpful even if it is only in an indirect way.
Should I not have pride in my mask? I spend so much time working on it that I should be proud of myself. I have made quite an accomplishment taking myself from a violently aggressive youth to a calm and collected adult. If that is not something to be proud over then what is? You obviously can’t understand it because you naturally fit in, but not everybody is like you.
As for the insults, keep them coming if you must. They don’t hurt me. The words like troll and sophomoric (As a general rule of insults make sure to spell the word correctly) are just words, they won’t hurt me. Sticks and stones may break my bones…
To end it for today, I am glad you are ignoring me. I won’t have to put up with your pointless post of misdirected revenge any longer.
On to bigger and better things.
Cheers,
righteous woman, I agree 100%. I don’t believe you can heal from a sociopath by talking to another one. This just continues the dance. No contact. I know in the real world you may have no choice but to deal with some while you’re healing, but why voluntarily debate one? They are the lie. I know I will never be able to have a conversation with my ex again because not everything he says is a lie, but anything he says could be. What would be the point?
Happy Easter everyone!:) Stay strong.
Dr Liane
How can we get or have acess to the P-Scan (90 item test) you refer that anyone can use to rate another person’s psychopathy? I really would like do the test for my ex boyfriend.
I have found that in many cases the P will use A PARTIAL truth, and twist it….but even though it may contain a grain of truth, it is still meant to deceive.
Keep in mind that RAT POISON is 99% PURE CORN MEAL, and only 1% poison, so if you think of a lie like that, you can see that anything meant to deceive is POISON. DON’T EAT IT, and for SURE DON’T SWALLOW!
hello to all and happy easter to those who celebrate…thanks so much to donna, as i feel this sight has been incredibly instrumental in helping me to restore balance and grounding in my life.. although never having written, i have been with you all for at least half a year…the bloggers here have sufferred much, as have i, and i find only someone who has been through this type of deception will EVER understand it.and the depths to which is tears and burns at our spirit…..my opinion towards mr.green, is that he now SERVES a purpose.and SERVES us..sort of a practice for all of us to keep up our guard and identify all the red flags he puts up,,,what a bit of double speak he spews…and it clearly shows how confused the thoughts in his mind are…a very NOISY mind…i think we should USE him now , but only while keeping in mind that he is a narcissist as well as having severe impulse control…if we can do that we may pick up some insightful traits and be able to practice how to HANDLE these folks in our everyday lives….if we notice someone here displaying empathy towards him, we just kindly remind that person not to feed into his supply sincerely these types have truly given me a new world view….i never realized people could exist without a conscience or soul….but something , be it psychological, biological or spiritual really mutated in these creatures………oh and for fun,to lighten up a bit…he points out the misspelling of someones word sophomoric…..too funny…through all his blogs, i have been enjoying the numerous words he either misspells or uses totally incorrectly (alter for example, instead of the more appropriate ulterior, being the most enjoyable…
Newworld view,
LOL that was ME that missssssspelled that word–sometimes my fingers run faster than my brain, or is it the other way round and I “tarnspose” letters or hhit more than one! and then I post before I run spell check. Yes, I also noticed his errors, but again, no point in pointing them out. LOL
I didn’t respond to him–because it is like two dogs in a “leg hiking contest” you both get pee all over you and everything else. LOL
Believe me, he and his “logic” and his “kindness” to point out to us how HARD he has to work at appearing normal and to restrain himself from xyz, show that he either is a P or he is a student pretending to be one. But, in either case, he isn’t important—or unique, we all have known them who are smarter, bigger, badder, meaner, and more successful and have better things to do with their lives than gloat over conversing with us, they are out there doing really mean things instead of just “talking a big game.”
BTW, welcome Newworld–glad you are here. This is a healing place and a very educational one too.
OxDrover:
I love your descriptive language! You offer both enlightenment and FUN. Thanks. Again, welcome Newworld!
WEll, Peggy, the thing is if you can’t laugh about it eventually, I think something is wrong somewhere. You must admit it is all pretty riduculous, isn’t it?
Yea, these people are EVIL and they have done some pretty nasty things to us, but in the end, WE have “won” because they didn’t KEEP US DOWN.
Glad you enjoy my sense of humor–I do admit sometimes it gets pretty twisted! LOL
Please, let’s be very cautions. From my experiece with a P, Mr. Green will definitely come back to this blog with another “alias”.