By | September 19, 2008 160 Comments

Reflections on antisocial behavior (Part 3): Is that person a sociopath/psychopath?

Five and a half years ago I started a quest to understand sociopathy/psychopathy and antisocial behavior. Long before that, in 1981, I attended a lecture by Dr. Sarnoff Medick at USC. During that lecture, he presented the results of his research. His research on adopted children indicates that antisocial behavior has a strong measurable genetic basis. His studies did not single out anyone “diagnosed” a sociopath/psychopath they only examined antisocial behavior in parents and their biologic and adopted offspring.

Remembering these studies, I read them again and found many others demonstrating the genetic basis for antisocial behavior and sociopathy/psychopathy. Also at the beginning of my quest, I read Without Conscience by Dr. Robert Hare. (If you have not read it, I strongly recommend you do so.) That book teaches us about a category of people “psychopaths” who are without conscience and are antisocial. According to Without Conscience, psychopathy can only be diagnosed by professionals who using the PCL-R find a person scores over a certain cut-off. That book also makes reference to the genetic basis for “psychopathy.”

Questions about antisocial behavior, sociopaths and psychopaths

Reading all this material, I immediately questioned if psychopaths are a separate category of antisocial people. Many experts say “psychopaths” represent 1% of the general population and 25% of the prison population. I also wondered what the other 75% of the prison population would be considered. To my dismay I found several studies showing that many maximum security, very antisocial and violent criminals would not be considered “psychopaths” according to the PCL-R.

Three things about the research reports troubled me then, and also now. First of all what good is it to tell people there are a category of dangerous “psychopaths” out there and then in the next sentence to say that only trained professionals can tell who “they” are? Second of all, there are many very antisocial and violent individuals who “professionals” say are not “psychopaths.” In fact, studies of pedophiles indicate they are less likely to be “psychopaths” than other sexual offenders. What? Excuse me? Thirdly, while saying psychopathy is genetic, scientists imply that it is 100% genetic and that is simply not true. No study has found the disorder is 100% genetic.

These 3 issues lead me to focus on antisocial behavior again as opposed to a specific category of people, psychopaths or sociopaths. If we focus on antisocial behavior we can clearly identify people who commit a large number of antisocial acts. For these people harming others has become a way of life and is not something they do only occasionally. It does not take a professional to identify antisocial behavior or harm.

The focus should be first on antisocial behavior, then the personality traits of those who show a lot of it

Many experts agree with the idea that our focus should be on antisocial behavior first, then we should try to understand what characteristics very antisocial people have in common. In their book The Psychology of Criminal Conduct, Drs. Andrews and Bonta state, “A general Antisocial Personality Pattern may be more relevant than psychopathological models of antisocial personality. If we limit ourselves to the personality traits and behavioral patterns of highly antisocial persons, then we have little need for concepts such as APD (sociopathy) and Psychopathy.”

Dr. Hare also states in a recent paper, “In any case, the use of a threshold or cut score for “diagnosing” psychopathy is problematical, given recent taxometric evidence that the PCL-R (Guay, Ruscio, Knight, & Hare, 2007) and its derivatives (Edens, Marcus, Lilienfeld, & Poythress, 2006; Walters et al., 2007) measure a dimensional construct. Cut scores are useful for communication among researchers, but of necessity are somewhat arbitrary when used for diagnostic purposes. The real issue is not how difficult it may be to reach a given “threshold” but how variations in the psychopathy dimensions relate to variables of interest, including normal range personality processes (Hare & Neumann, 2008; Lynam & Widiger, 2007).

In other words, in his scientific writings, Dr. Hare says that the best use of the PCL-R is to describe the personality traits of people we have otherwise categorized. Using it to “diagnose” psychopathy is “problematical.”

Where do we go from here and is sociopathy/psychopathy still a relevant concept?

Sociopathy (antisocial behavior) and psychopathy, or the cluster of personality traits that those with antisocial behavior have, are still very important to understand. First most people do not habitually engage in harmful antisocial behavior. It is important for us to understand all the factors, from personality to social circumstance that contribute to habitual antisocial behavior, or sociopathy.

Psychopathy represents a cluster of personality traits that are commonly found in very antisocial people (sociopaths). There is no cut-off score for determining “a psychopath.” It is more correct to say that high scores on measures of psychopathy indicate the presence of psychopathic personality traits to an extreme degree.

Let’s go ahead and call a spade a spade and categorize sociopaths

Is there any way to categorize sociopaths? Yes I say there is. There are distinct categories that people who are very psychopathic fall into, obvious examples include: con artists, rapists, child molesters and career criminals. Less obvious examples include: pathologic liars, unscrupulous sales people, and the perpetrators of domestic violence.

Your basic bad relationship choice

I also want to point out that most individuals who are your basic “bad relationship choice” are more psychopathic than the average person. So it is OK to call them psychopaths for the sake of convenience. The category, “bad relationship choice” includes people who repeatedly cheat on their mates, lie to them, and manipulate them. Hear me if your lover cheats on you, lies to you all the time, tries to destroy your reputation, takes your money, manipulates you and/or tries to control you, he or she is very psychopathic. That is not normal behavior. People who love one another are supposed to take special care of each other. Get away from that psychopath now before you are destroyed!

The good news

Did you make a “bad relationship choice”? Do you know a pathological liar? If you answer yes to these questions you do not need me or any specially trained expert to tell you the person you know is very psychopathic- a psychopath and a sociopath. If you want to review the set of personality traits that pathological liars, “bad relationship choices,” con artists, rapists, pedophiles, and career criminals have in common, see What is a sociopath? and Dr. Robert Hare’s symptoms of psychopaths. Use the list of personality traits to decide for yourself just how psychopathic that person you know is.

Comment on this article

Please Login to comment
Notify of

Without Conscience: by Dr. Robert Hare.

Yes I did and it what one of the best reads I had the chance to study!

“bad relationship choice”

I refer to them as “toxic” insomuch that being around them causes us to have a negative reaction both emotionally physically and mentally. Something that would happen if one did in fact come in contact with some form of toxic waste. I heard this term “toxic” used by other people and can see the relation to it applied to “bad relationship choice”. Most of us not being trained in the field of psychology and psychopathological models of antisocial personality tend to try to understand them by using laymen terminology. We too struggle with the concept of those that are indeed “bad relationship choice”. Even with concerns in clusters of a person who suffer from a personality disorder leaves one with more questions then answers.

Thanks for your article which as always open up doors of thought and opportunity!

Ox Drover

Dear Dr. Leedom,

GREAT ARTICLE, and clears up a lot of things, makes it more simple for the “layman” to understand. (Even the “professional” to understand).

Your comment about some sexual predators not being “psychopaths” was interesting too. I read one of Dr. Anna Salter’s books for reference when I was writing to the parole board to try to keep the Trojan Horse Psychopath incarcerated and was interested to see that hardly any of the sexual molesters of children were actually classified as “psychopaths” or “sociopaths” and prior to reading her book, I would have thought that would have been a “given”—just because they molested children sexually, if for no other reason. Yet, your article does clarify why they might not actually BE what we would otherwise think of as “APD” or “PPD”–interesting concepts.

“Poor relationship choice” is sure an UNDERSTATEMENT though! LOL But, it is DEFINITELY TRUE, and IT DEFINITELY FITS!

In the end, “A rose by any other name….” Thanks for the article.


James: TOXIC IS EXACTLY WHAT THEY ARE. I remember my suit with my bosses and feeling their toxicity oozing through every pore of me. I felt as if I showered and showered and showered it would not wash off or out of me. I had to hang in there though … fighting the good fight to bring these anti-socials into the light. I remember when it first started. I would look behind me and all around me … looking for who they were talking to. It was then I realized they were talking to me … in such derogatory and degrading ways … only a sociopath could come up with. After I got passed this shock and the subsequent shocks to come down the road … because no matter how low a sociopaths goes today, s/he can always going much lower tomorrow. I never underestimated any of them, while going through my kangaroo courts to get their lies to stick on me, no matter how they tried to get them to stick. When I finally (and this was years later) got decent stewards to represent me … I would ask them to watch all the paychecks being wasted as the suits sat across the table from us. This one made this amount of money per year and that one made that amount of money, this one’s salary was in this range, and that one’s salary was in that range. Pay attention to how much of the tax payers money is being wasted sitting at this table. Yes, I included my salary and the salaries of my stewards being wasted to having to sit and listen to this garbage. I can’t even give them the benefit of the doubt that what they made me endure was nonsense… because it was all GARBAGE. Period.



Oh, and after I got out of that hell hole … it took years to wash this toxicity out of my life. Step by step, day by day, to unwind all this toxicity out. Then of course, the 2nd shoe fell and I found out I was being doubled whammied by sociopaths at the same time. I had no clue about my EX as he smiled to my face and held me in his arms … told me that he was standing by my side during this suit. Me and you, going through life together. I never had the time to pay attention or see any red flags. I was too busy keeping my head above water with the sociopaths I worked for, never thinking or knowing a sociopath was engaged to me.

That’s why I consider him more evil than any of those from my work … and more cowardly. How convenient for him, sociopaths are destroying me at work and he’s destroying me at home. It was a win/win situation all the away around for them. They couldn’t get me to buckle and back down, rest assure, I’ll destroy her from her inner most core.



Good insights Dr. Leedon.

From the point of view of us “lay” people diagnosing the P/S/N/’s that we had had the misfortune of being involved with, I think one of the reasons the info is so important is that we can come to grips that there is NO TREATMENT. This is VERY important as we struggle to disconnect from someone we have been with because we “loved” the good side presented by the con.

Once we understand that our P’s behavior is not just an innappropriate reaction to some external event, but a CONDITION – our nurturing instinct to fix,.change or help, is set on its proverbial ass and we have to look to saving what is left of our own sweet self.

As far as the symptoms, warning signs etc, I have come to believe that anyone that uses lies as a STRATEGY – as a method of dealing with life, is likely a P and should be avoided.

I made the mistake of overlooking and discounting lies by my ex in business practice, as industry practice. Even tho I was in the same business and avoided lying at all costs, prided myself on my word is my bond, etc, ruthless business practice was highly rewarded, then as now, and I minimized the importance of what that meant as far as the character of my ex. largely because I believed in all his “family values” persona. WRONG.

Ultimately, just as it is impossible to do business with a chronic liar, it is impossible to build a life with one. Period. Call it what you will.

And that is part of the blessed relief of finally detaching from a P. We might be alone, but we are free from “living a lie”, which is where we end up, knowingly or not, when involved with a P. On some level we are conscious that things are always “off” and the consequence is that we feel off balance, not right. And that is exactly where the P wants us. Makes their job a lot easier.

It is a hard learned lesson to survive close contact with a P, but maybe a lot like surviving a bad virus. We come through it with a stronger immune system. Our antibodies have done their job. We are whole again and healthy.

Hugs to all

Ox Drover

Dear eyeswideshut,

Some very VERY good points that you brought out, especially about the LIES in business.

Liars that will lie as an “industry” practice, are not going to be “truth tellers” in everything else. If lying is “ok” in one setting (business) why is it “not okay” in your personal life? Of course it is. A lie is a lie. A LIAR is a LIAR.

If they will be “crooked” business people, they will be “crooked” personal relations.

Your analogy about the “virus” is so right on as well, I hadn’t thought of it that way, but you are so good with that one, our IMMUNE SYSTEM COMES OUT STRONGER AND EQUIPPED TO FIGHT OFF FUTURE Ps —GReat Analogy!


When I read Without Conscience, flags went up and sirens went off. This was my brother. While not violent (to my knowledge), he lies, manipulates and cons people, especially women. Although one former male employer said, “he couldn’t have violated me more unless I was a woman.”

He recently began cyberstalking a friend of mine. She can tell from her logs that he visits her blog a few times a day, sometimes in the middle of the night. He posted a few absurd comments (probably written while he was drinking) which she didn’t approve to be published.

He has been mentioned in blogs and a few web sites and some of his arrest records are published online. He can no longer brag about his “accomplishments,” telling people to search on his name. Although not by name, he was mentioned in a recent article on about trust and betryal.

I used to wish that his life of lies and victimizing people would catch up with him. I prayed that he’d be picked up on his warrants. I hoped that the whole world would see him for what he is. The fact that he is up in the middle of the night checking a stranger’s blog (he’s never even met my friend), to see if she published his comments or remarked about them, makes me think that his pathetic life may already be punishment enough. It can’t feel good to be him.

Or am I wrong? Do they even feel any discomfort as a result of their behavior?


I think a name is just a name, it is a bases to work off. No two N/P/Ss are the same, just as no two people are the same. The N/P/Ss have minds that are different and they can come up with some interesting ideas all their own that they share with us, and we like them. We find them interesting, or why would we be with them? The N/S/P designation is a starting point. It gives us a tool to deal with very difficult, abusive situations. The tool is invaluable, and anyone who is in an abusive relationship and then somehow comes across the word N/P/S and then realizes that the person in question might just be one, is very lucky! To have the tools to deal with abuse, what a blessing! Who cares if we are social workers or psychiatrists! We are people who have been abused and now we have the tools to deal with it. Thank god that these labels exist! I don’t think the label does anything for the S/P/N. The label is clearly for the victim.

The one thing that has been bothering me today, is his total lack of insight that my ex sociopath has. When we were going through it, he kept saying to me “but i can’t help it.” That statement puzzled me like nothing else. What do you mean you can’t help it! I was 6 months pregnant and he promised me he was “in”. He promised! What do you mean you can’t help that you fell in love with another women? He can’t help it, hum bug. The reason it bothers me is because I talked to him the other day. I know I broke NC, but he got me on the phone. His father did the same thing to him when he was in his mothers womb. That is left her for another women when she was pregnant with him. And I said to him on the phone, “you know I read that malignant narcissists often re-inact traumatic childhood events”. This comes from Sam Vaknins book. He said to me “But that would imply that I planned this.” I replied, “well, it is probably not conscience.”

Sam Vaknins book does say that they totally lack insight. But I just can’t believe to what extent. It really feels like insight could not come even if it were a train that smacked them in brood daylight. I find my ex sociopaths lack of insight, eerie today.

betrayed-they do feel pain sometimes. Their entire life is one big midlife crisis. They feel horrible enough inside to move from one crisis to the next. But they don’t feel horrible for what they have done to you or others. Oh no. Rather it is that sometimes they see that the fantasy of their life does not match their reality. And that brief moment when they see reality, hurts them. This might cause them to degrade and humiliate someone so that they feel high on their horse again.


bird: If he said “I can’t help it” probably means that he can’t take responsibility either way of anything life has to offer. My thinking tonight of them being perfectionists not doing … therefore, not failing at whatever it is they have to do. To sit back or conveniently take off is “not doing anything”. Right or wrong … they aren’t to blame … in their minds. Therefore, they keep the perfectionist saga going and wasn’t to blame for any future failing … being with his pregnant girlfriend, raising the child and if it turned out bad … he had nothing to do with raising this kid … he’s blameless in his own mind … not to shatter his perfectionist way of thinking.

One of my bosses was married prior to his current marriage (to a psychiatrist of all people, no clue to what her husband is all about). Anyway, his first wife came down with cancer. She came home from her appointment and told him the grim news. He packed his bags that night and was single for years after the divorce. He is a perfectionist. He got perfect scores on being the “dirtbag” of our company after that fiasco. Anyway, years later married a psychiatrist … travels with her at any of her numerous conferences around the globe. When he’d return to the office I’d ask him how Hawaii was or Europe or where ever they went … his answer was always standard “It would have been a good trip if we didn’t have the two kids with us”. Enough said on that note. Clueless that his selfish self is projecting it’s self on those two little innocent kids. Finally I told him, love your kids … take responsibility for bringing them into the world and just love them, no matter how you love them. If you love your children they will feel that love and that love becomes their foundation. Firm foundation that mom and dad loved us.

Besides I told him … you were single for years and I worked for you … and never did any women call you during those dry years of you not dating … so your single life wasn’t what you seem to make it cracked out to be. He said “wini, everything would be perfect if those two kids weren’t in my life”. I said, grow up, they are here … love them. Well, this conversation didn’t sink in …every Monday he came in like a bear and kicking and throwing temper tantrums about his home life, and his wife and his kids and he wanted to just chuck it all and be single again.

Go figure. Perfectionist at work … don’t ever want to do anything … so in their minds … not doing anything allows them not to fail and not to succeed. They win in their own minds playing or being crippled by perfectionism … it’s just the havoc that they wreak in everyone’s lives.

Think back about your EX. Is there a streak of perfectionist in him?



Dear Dr. Leedom:

Thank you for your article. One of the issues that I have been pondering as I reflect on my past experience with my ex-S/P is the issue of a “bad realtionship choice”. I started to analyze some friendships that I had, and I came to the conclusion that those relationships “groomed” me for my ex-husband. They exhibited many of the same attributes. Lying, manipulation and the utter disregard for how their actions hurt me and others. It was as if they would say, “yeah I hurt you, so what!! I DARE you to do anything about it”. So, I wondered…What does that make THEM? So I now see it is okay to call a spade a spade. I have not read the books you mentioned, however, I am looking forward to doing so.


I don’t think they feel any discomfort for their behavior. Anyone with a conscience would not behave the way they do. I didn’t have a label for him until after he was gone. It is the personality trait’s that label them a S/P/N And learning about bad personality trait’s that are toxic and “bad relationship choices” has made me reconsider all my relationships. And make changes to get toxic people out of my life and avoid them in the future. But no they don’t feel remorse or bad for hurting anyone – it is all about them….and that is hard for decent – good -people to comprehend…. they are alien’s from there own world – not from our’s….


Hello everyone, this is really a great discussion. I think this kind of work is really pioneering –

I think one way to identify a psychopath is to find out if they dream. The probable psychopaths in my orbit specifically said they never dreamed, except the most primitive kind of fear-nightmares. Same with the alcoholics and recovering alcoholics.

This may be due to defective wiring between the emotional brain regions and the higher-order thinking modules (like, “pontine myelinolysis” in severe alcholism — damage to brain white matter).

Other mammals who lack this white matter wiring are platypuses and human infants up to about 18 months or so.

Of course I don’t have any data — but I thought it was interesting that Clark “Rockefeller” (if anyone was following that story out of Boston) said in an interview that he doesn’t dream.


My X (P) never dreamed, I asked him if he ever dreamed and he said no. Several blogger’s here have commented on how they looked when sleeping – dead – coma – alien – angelic – evil. I dreamed about him last nite.


Wini-I think you are right. I love the insight you gave me because it was really confusing to me. Of course, he is saying that he can wipe his hands clean of his actions because “he can’t help it”. His actions are in the stars or where ever he choose to blame for him abondoning his child. He can’t help it, because the moon was full in his zodiac sign or because the other women is a witch and cast a spell or because it is true love and he can’t help “true love”.

My ex sociopath used to talk of lucid dreaming. I think it is the dream state where you are partially awake and can control the dream. Brain studies of the sociopaths brain waves show that they function slightly above the sleep state but below the normal brain waves of functioning adults. It must of felt that his waking life was a dream. Hence the lucid dreams.


bird: I think all our EXs have a big problem with thinking and believing they are perfectionists. On whatever level of perfectionism they are at … they can’t do (live life) because they can’t accept responsibility for anything … always blaming others before and after a failure. It’s your fault that the relationship didn’t work. It’s your fault that they looked at someone else to live with or date or sleep with. Not theirs. It’s your fault that you got pregnant, had the child. Not there fault. Never their fault. It’s your fault that you could marry. It’s your fault that the relationship went sour. It’s your, your, your fault. Read all these blogs, everyone is saying the same things … different scenarios but basically the same thing … that their EXs blamed them and moved on. They are stuck in their perfectionist minds … judging and not doing life. Wanting a relationship, needing people to be involved in their lives but hating us at the same time. They can’t love us more than a few days … only while the newness has them enthralled can they be with us. When that newness wears off and the real humans come into focus … they are off (maybe only in their heads at the moment, not telling us what changed, not even admitting it to themselves) so they go looking for the new attraction, any new attraction. They play the chasing game with everyone until the newness runs out … then off again. Never having to look at their own insecurities – always pointing the blame on the other partner(s) … never looking at themselves to blame for their own neurosis … oh, no can’t do that “I’m perfect” so it has to be you.

What do you think?


Bird: I too am in total disbelief at the totally lack of insight that these things have. My ex gaslighted me, so I thought I was convinced that I was totally ill.

There was a point where I was drugged most of the time. I was in bed for about 16 hours a day on a mattress on the floor with no tv (and still believing I had a prince charming), I was suicidal and he would leave me, in fact for days saying he had to work. Amazingly, I got through that. I don’t even no how.

When I became more functional, I looked at that point in my life as a horrific nightmare that I didn’t want to repeat. I was still with my s/p, and he was upset that I was actually living. He said to me, “I liked it better the way it was before. At least I also knew you where home waiting for me.” I reply to him…”That was the worst time in my life…I wanted to die!” He simply said…”Oh…right?” I can’t even comprehend it and it was my life. What I myself witnessed and lived. It created the situation and only saw the advantage and loss for himself.


That’s an interesting comment about a sociopath not being able to dream. I would think it has something to do with a disconnection from their inner life and feelings? The sociopath that I dated cannot even sleep more than a few hours at night. He claimed this was from a head injury he received while fighting as a soldier in Iraq. However, it turned out he was faking his entire injury! I figure anyone who is living such an incredible lie (lying to his wife, lying to me about his wife, lying to the army, etc.) would probably have trouble sleeping at night, wouldn’t you think? Is sleep dysfunction a part of the personality disorder?


Swivelchair: What I found interesting that my EX too didn’t require much sleep. Complaining that he couldn’t sleep. The other thing I noticed is that he had to have his feet weighted down with blankets. Folded up blankets (maybe 3 or 4) weighing down his feet. Another, I dated also had a weird bounce to his step … his heels never touched the ground … like he was floating up all the time. I don’t think any of them are grounded, hence, weighed down your feet … the other one can’t put his feet squarely on the ground as he walks … hmmmmmmmmmmmm, there just may be something to this … floating aspect to them. Not grounded firmly in REALITY. My EX could walk up a ladder upright and walk right on to my roof. Never thinking twice about that he could fall. Never holding on the the side to the ladder … as if he were going up stairs to another landing of your house. Same thing, he worked on roofs of churches were he lived … do you realize how steep most older churches are. That too, he’d just walk up the ladders and walk right onto the roof of the church. Are you kidding me … I still climb a ladder … one rung at a time with both hands on the sides of the ladder … when I make it to the top … I’m stuck as to how am I going to get on the roof. Somehow flip my leg over to the roof and pull myself up. NOT going to work … so I guess I’ll have to hire someone. My EX told me that all I have to do is walk up and on the roof. Fat chance? I am very grounded on this planet knowing if I slip and fall, I’m in traction for quite a few months … no thank you.


Praise the Lord for this site! I am at about 2 months of No Contact with my ex-S of 1 and a half years. I had to go to the police and report him for his sick and twisted texts and phonecalls to myself and my 15 year old daughter. He is a firefighter in another city, but he was so narcisstic EGOTISTICAL and outrageous when the police officers spoke to him, that even the police realized he was bizarre and dangerous despite his “hero” job status. They tried to charge him with harrassment and stalking but he managed to slip threw the cracks like the typical sociopath. I was the perfect target. A single,low income, working mom with no local family and not much support. I ended up pregnant with the S (I’m 46 years old , it was quite unexpectedly). When I asked the S if he would do things differently than he did raising his other daughter from a previous marriage (he was a non-participatory “parent”) he exploded into a psychotic rage aimed at myself, the unborn baby and my teenage daughter. (NEVER question a S!!! )I live in a Backward Mormon town so I had to drive myself 5 hours with my daughter to obtain an abortion (at 6 weeks), which haunts me to no end. I could not raise the baby at 46, being low-income and alone. He was being completely psychotic threatening to “disappear or fight me tooth and nail ” for custody of the baby. He wanted me to quit my job,foreclose my house ,pull my daughter from school and be completely dependent on him. For so long I ignored the huge EGO i couldn’t stand,and all the other red flags…I wish so much I had dumped him long before… I blame myself so much for not breaking up before this all happened, and the abortion brings me such grief… I had broken up 2 times before but he cried and manipulated and I fell for it.. What a horror story to tell!!


Dear stormee: Fear no more, we are all here for you. Any time you want to blogg with any of … jump right in … who ever is on line will blogg back with you.

Peace. Thank god you and your daughter are away from him. Keep up the NO CONTACT with him. No matter what he pulls … don’t think you are ever talking to a “nice” guy. NOT.


Thanks wini,
that helps… And it helps so much to read everyone’s stories and comments… A sociopath is an incomplete human according to the Dali Lama, I beleive that means they lack a soul….

OMG Wini and Swivelchair! My Ex-P couldn’t sleep for more than a few hours either! What’s up with that. I can’t believe that connection. It as draining. Him not sleeping kept me up. I was so tired. I need a good 8 hours. I don’t know how he could do that. Sometimes, he’d be up until 5 am and then call work around 6 to call out sick and then sleep a little while. Totally nuts.


That’s creepy…Mine was the same way…He would only sleep a few hours and be “up and at ’em” bright and early… I always thought it was odd…


Plus he was a liar,totally arrogant ,egotistical and an “expert” on so many subjects. He bragged, acted weird (“eccentric”) in public, and had tons of energy! It’s really bizarre how they all have so much in common…

Also, my x had to have a standing fan in the room at night. He needed the noise. It was really disruptive and I couldn’t figure out how he could sleep through the noise…for the few hours he got.
He could sit in front of the TV and stare til dawn but I don’t think he absorbed anything he was watching.

Ox Drover

Guys, you are pretty much describing a bi-polar person in a manic phase. They sleep very little, it is almost like they are on speed, either that or your P’s were on speed.

There is a high coorelation between bi-polar and psychopathic personality disorder—Dr. Leedom did a thread on that. Something like 1/3 (more or less) of Bi-polars are also Psychopathic if I remember correctly. (CRS)

Google Bi-polar disorder and read about it, that might give you a better idea if it describes your guys.


I’ve read that Sociopaths can have several mental disorders along with anti social disorder.


The difference between being an individual with bipolar disorder and being a sociopath with bipolar disorder is that the sociopath with bipolar disorder will also posses a huge EGO…

What do you think my x was…bi-polar, sociopath, psychopath or ASD?
1. Contant lying.
2. Controlling
3. Maniuplative
4. Con artist – Workers comp fraud, tax fraud, conned me into putting his name on my deed.
5. Lazy – Can’t keep job. Calls out sick and goes to e/r to get doctors note so he doesn’t get fired.
6. Parasitic lifestyle
7. Short-lived relationships.
8. Risky behaviour – was involved with thugs being a lookout for quick cash.
9. Cheater – several women going at one time.
10. Not much sleep.
11. Always working out..his arms are never big enough.
12. No friends.
13. Not close with family…other than a few phone calls a year to his mom and sister.
14. Angry all the time…uncontrollable outbursts of rage. Breaking things, walking out of the house.
15. Paranoid – trusts no one and feels people looking at him don’t trust him.
16. Abandoned 5 out of 7 of his kids.
17. Doesn’t sleep much.
18. Feels he is entitled to my things.
19. Fake crying.
20. Runs away from the people he hurts rather than trying to make amends. He said he can never say “I’m sorry.” To him this doesn’t matter. It can’t take back things he’s done.
21. No eye contact when he sees me now. Guilt?
22. Always looking for some “true love.”

I can’t figure out which mental illness he has.

Ox Drover

One idndividual can have MORE THAN ONE CONDITION/ILLNESS. He definitely sounds like a psychopath/sociopath/Antisocial personality disorder,. he could ALSO be bi-polar,. the Not sleeping much sounds like it could be a manic phase, but he also might be “hyperactive” as there is apparently a relationship between ADHD and PPD.

So, in theory he COULD be Bi-polar, PPD and ADHD, all 3.

It SEEMS to me that people who are PPD and “something else” as well seem to be “more” P than those with only one diagnosiable condition. Just my personal assessment though.

It does sound like your guy is a “full blooded, pedigreed PPD” though, he sure has the “signs”–especially the 7 kids that he has abandoned 5 of and I bet he is no “prize father” to the other two.

As for your question about “guilt?”—nahhhh, NOT guilt, whatever it is, it isn’t guilt. Paranoia maybe but not guilt! lol


Iwonder Your x sounds like a cluster B “Borderline Personality Disorder” + Sociopath + physcopath – look it up – google it and see what you think?

Ox and Henry: Maybe a combination. He’s a scarey person. Not violent though and flies just under the radar with the law. I do not trust him. How can anyone with a conscience do the things he does? Right now I’m worried he may want $ to sign over the deed to my condo back in my name….or there may be a plot to divorce his current wife, marry the OW and then he and the OW would legally own 1/2. I hate to think that way about anyone but look what I’m dealing with.

I just got an email from the wife. She is in NJ up from FL this month to get the divorce straightened out. I emailed her and asked if she could hold-off until I get the deed signed. This way, he can’t marry the OW until I get the property back.

I hope she works with me on this. I told her something doesnt feel right. Especially since I found out he was with the OW all along…and that he asked me to put his name on the deed. She may be in on it or not but I can’t take that chance with this guy. Do you blame me?

Ox Drover

Dear Iwonder,

I hate to bust your bubble in any way, but since you VOLUNTARILY put his name on the deed, he may not be liable for “fraud”—it may be a he said/she said thing, though I know and believe he DEFRAUDED you, it may be difficult to prove. Many times the cops don’t look at this as “criminal” (like he held a gun to your head to rob you) but as a “civil” thing, where YOU have to hire an attorney and sue him in court.

The Trojan horse psychopath who was my elderly mother’s live in care giver, asked me for a “loan” to buy a vehicle, I said “no” because you can’t pay it back. He got mom to loan him the money and “signed a note” for the money, BUT when the vehicle was registered there was no lien (mortgage) on the title so the “note” he signed was essentially worthless anyway.

After he and my DIL (who were having an affair) got my mom to rescend my power of attorney and giv eit to my DIL she got into the safe deposit box and tore up the note anyway.

After they were arrested for trying to kill her huband C my son, and then she got out, she took the title of the truck to my mom’s attorney and a POA that the TH-P had given to her to try to get the truck since “there was nothing owed on it”—

We slapped a mechanic’s lien for STORAGE on it though and blocked that. Eventually mom got the title legally. You say you have a condo—I assume there are monthly payments for “fees” as well as I assume you are making mortgage payments.

In the event he won’t sign it over you might slap him with a judgement for unpaid fees—since I assume he has never paid any of the yearly or monthly fees, then you can put a lien on his “half” and see if you can’t repo it. But talk to an attorney, usually you can get a first visit essentially free and maybe that would help you know where you stand.

Good luck! (((hugs)))

Ox: Oh boy. You are a kill joy this evening. Even though I signed over voluntarily, it was under the condition that we were going to get married. He did not abide by the contract. I have papers he filled out for 2 attorney visits to file the annulment from the wife…he never went through with it. The last time, we went to the county courthouse and filed ourselves. He never followed up again and that case was dismissed for lack of his prosecution. That should be evidence that he never planned to divorce and marry me…especially because he was having relations with the OW all along. I hope that’s enough.
Maybe he has found God and will just sign.

OK Ox: It’s 3:30am and I couldn’t sleep about this deed stuff. I called the sociopath and left a message hysterically crying telling him I can’t sleep over this and that he needs to do something because I am having a breakdown and that please don’t ask me for money….because I don’t have any. sob..sob. I know he’s a sociopath but somewhere deep down inside there, I know there’s a beating heart. He put me through such pain and misery he tells everyone when he hears me cry it makes him never want to hurt anyone again. I know it’s probably bullshit but I do believe this will get to him.

I got an email from his wife. She spoke with him over the weekend about her divorce and he mentioned to her that he will always be greatful to me for all I did for him and his kids.

Stay tuned…more to come.


Iwonder: Good luck in trying to fit logic into an illogical situation. Did you ever hear of the Great Wall of China? How many miles long it is … and they are still discovering more miles of the wall … the wall changes through the entire landscape of the country … well, the walls your EX has blocking his emotions makes the GWofC look like tinker toys. He has your deed because it is leverage? What kind of leverage, I couldn’t answer. Why they destroy everyone that was good to them in their lives … I couldn’t tell you that … my guess is that they are jealous of everyone in life and for some reason, they want us to pay … for whatever pain they endured in their childhood, real or imagined. Imagined pain is their egos taking off, not listening to a reprimand or something from a parental figure. Who knows why they wall themselves off and mimic everything in life? Some day, hopefully in our life time … we will know the answers. Hey, it just may be their egos getting carried away with them … looking down at others like we are all their play things … puppets for their amusement. Like I said, who knows. I know they don’t live righteously … never doing what was right in life, therefore, never learning lessons of compassion, love, honesty, decency, and all the other virtues learned walking the righteous paths in life. What they did is use and abuse and manipulate everyone, learning only evil from their mindsets viewing the world the way they do. We all have choices in this world … we can walk a righteous path in life … do the work, learn the lesson, gain wisdom or not. It’s everyone’s choice. We are what our minds think. Period. Conditioned from childhood. If you are henpecked and afraid, it takes years or maybe never the person breaks out of their henpecked conditioning. If you were allowed to grow and spread your wings … then you made those choices in your life to choose what you wanted and not wanted incorporated in your life. Because your EX, like the rest of our EXs played up the good guy, I love you, you and me babe against the world, I will always be there for you, yadda, yadda, yadda … we believed them, we loved them … to find out to our horror it was all a shame to get from us what they want … love, a roof over their heads, material things, money, a stepping stone for a place to rest until they moved down the road … who knows. And frankly right now, I don’t care what they are all about … I just know they need to be in prison for playing all of society. Go to prison to slow down, read the Bible, learn wisdom of how to be in harmony with the rest of society … and stop your immature nonsense once and for all. That’s it in a nutshell. Period, over and out. Anything else, you want to play and cry and whatever else to think you can get through to him … stop banging your head against the wall and playing into his viciousness. Believe me, they are mean, self absorbed, believe their own big egos … look down on the rest of us in society that we are clueless and idiots … they believe we should all smarten up and live their way, with no rules or regulations … and we (who are mature and responsible citizens) know that their way of living is stunted. Spiritually stunted. It is wrong, wrong, wrong to take and play society. It is not harmony with others … it is chaos and evil at it’s height and Glory. Did you ever read or see the movie Shindler’s list? The pianist? Nazi Germany during WWII … annihilating the Jewish people of the world? Yes, Hitler in his delusional, irrational, narcissistic mindset to annihilat an entire race of people because he had some bug up his butt and used the Jewish people to full fill his warp sense of reality being he was insecure, jealous, self centered starving 2nd rate artist … who couldn’t make it in the Art world, his narcissistic need for approval… turned him to another direction, that of the political realm … rose through the ranks and played the world’s people for everything he could. When his illusion shattered, in the end, he shot his newly wed wife and himself (so history says) or else, his elite closest to him shot both of them. Who knows, the victors write history the way they want it portrayed, but they are gone.

Finally, if you don’t think there are thousands and thousands of professionals, both law enforcement, the courts, legal and medical along with mental health professionals who make it their mission to figuring them out … open your eyes and see a bigger world than yourself … you aren’t the only one going through this. And yes, I feel your pain and I know what it is like to have them in your space.

For now, focus on healing yourself. Do what you have to do (within the law) of getting him into court or getting him to sign over the deed. After that NO CONTACT with him. For if you do, he will con and say whatever to play your life all over again for his own amusement. Period. If you feel you should be played as some toy thing, feel free. My life is worth more than some idiot to continue to play me. And play us is all what they did.



Iwonder.. I wouldn’t beg.. blve me they have NO pity, and the nice stuff he’s saying about you is only to make himself look like less of an arse. My guess is he promised his current lover that he would get some money for the deed or something, and now he doesn’t want to give in for fear of her dumping him.

If I were you, knowing what I know now… I’d stand up to him VERY strongly. The only way to confront a bully is to show no fear and stand up for your rights. He romanced you with the sole purpose of defrauding you, this is a federal offense. If he used the internet to do it, this is wire fraud, another federal offense. Do not be afraid to let this jerk know that you are not going to take this lying down. Hey jerkwad.. this is a federal offense, do you feel like signing that deed now, or shall I call my lawyer? Stand up to him strongly, you NEED your home.

Wini not everyone has a great life outside of the s/p. I have nothing but my kids, never had love, never had a home of my own, I lost a lot when I lost him. I have no great future or life waiting for me. I will probably be broke and alone forever. It’s been HARD getting over him. Don’t minimize it, you know you suffered as well when you were going through it.


Besides, if you threaten to have him arrested for fraud, it will give him an “out” with the OW. He can just say, “Look, I have to sign over this deed, because this horrible b…. is going to ruin my life if I don’t.”

Ox Drover

Dear Iwonder,

Not trying to be a “kill joy”—The truth will set you free, but first it will piss you off.

OK, look at it from the devil’s advocate point of view– “You were going with this MARRIED MAN And you signed over half your condo because he SAID he was going to divorce his wife and marry you?” And you trusted him, WHY?

KAT IS RIGHT—do NOT BEG—they love that!

Whatever you do you must STAY IN CONTROL—YOU CAN DO IT!!!!

Talk to the police, if that doesn’t work, talk to a lawyer. BUT DO NOT GIVE UP! It might be possible that his soon-to-be-X-wife and you could “gang up on him” for both your benefits.

I am playing “devil’s advocate” there

Ox Drover

Dear Kat,

Quote: “I have nothing but my kids,
never had a home of my own, I have no great future or life waiting for me. I will probably be broke and alone forever.”

BOINK! That’s the sound of my BIG iron skillet hitting you squarely on the top of the head!!! Now I’m gonna ((((((hug))))) you.

Now look here, GF, you need an “attitude adjustment” as I used to tell my kids.

Number 1, “all I have is my kids”—and that is supposed to make me pity you HOW? Sugar, that’s all you NEED.

Number 2, “there’s no great future ahead”

THE FUTURE IS WHAT YOU MAKE IT!!! You have been in school, and you can finish school and have anything you are willing to WORK FOR.

QUOTE: “I lost a lot when I lost him” BAULDERDASH! Idon’t care if you lived with him in the Trump Towers, you didn’t lose SQUAT when you lost him except your illusions! He abused you, THAT’S WHAT YOU LOST, GF! Nothing else.

My X-FIL (he was my husband’s guardian) left me with an old pick up truck, $300, a cat and two kids, not ANYTHING else, and I put myself through school, and I made it, YOU CAN TOO! It “ain’t easy” but you can do it.

Kat, a “wonderful” future doesn’t depend on OWNING anything or HAVING ANYONE. A “wonderful future” comes from INSIDE. It comes from valuing YOURSELF! No matter how “rich” someone is, believe me, you can lose it all in a heart beat, the ONLY thing in this life that is constant is “change.” Businesses fail, stocks go down, health fails, nothing on this earth is “for sure” and we better learn to make what is INSIDE US our “wealth” cause money sure as hell doesn’t “buy” a “great future” all it pays for is stuff.

I hit Henry hard with the skillet the other day cause he was so “needy” (hungry for) a relationship he was back on the Internet looking for one. When you are “hungry” for food, you will eat darn near ANYTHING, but when you are not soo “hungry” you will be more picky about what you eat.

BEing “Hungry” for a relationship makes you a lot less picky than you would be if you were not so “hungry” and you will “settle for less” and be back in the same boat. I sure found THAT OUT THE HARD WAY. After my huband died I was so “hungry” that I grabbed at the first P that came along like a drowning man grabbing at a straw. All I got for my trouble was more heart break.

You keep beating yourself up for breaking up with a “nice guy” and going back to the P and giving him another chance. If you had really loved Mr. Nice Guy, you wouldn’t have done that. So just having “Mr. Nice Guy” if you really weren’t in love with him wouldn’t have been all that great either.

Kat, I definitely KNOW that my chances of finding another “soul mate” are SLIM to NONE, but now I am also getting real about the fact that my life is not going to come to an end if I never do find another relationship, and I am NOT going to wither away either. I don’t NEED a relationship to be happy. I can be complete and happy without one. So can you!


Wini: Here’s a twist. July 06 the S sent his wife to Peurto Rico to his mothers for 3 mos. All that time, he started the relationship with me. He broke up with her over the phone & said he wanted divorce. 3 mos after that, he would call & tell her not to file that they were getting back together. Then he cut off communication with her. She moved to FL. Once and awhile he’d call to talk about the papers & told her where to send them. Each time, he diverted filing. For 2 years, he was supposed to file divorce & marry me. Never happened.

For the entire 2 yrs together, he had I kicked him out & now he’s with OW.

Here comes the twist. The wife & I communicate from time to time. I emailed her asking for help with the deed. Turns out she’s in NJ since Sept 3 hoping to talk to S about divorce papers. Nutty email. She wrote about how she knows the S better than any woman & he could be a great husband, father, etc. She said its up to God as to what path & whom he is supposed to be with. OMG! She still thinks they’ll get back together? She has no clue what she’s talking about. Also wrote that God had this life plan for me. That it was a sad and painful experience but we learn from our lessons and don’t make the same mistakes again.I wanna barf. He spit in her face & treated her like dirt too & she still thinks he’s great?? She wound up in the hospital sick over what he did.

Anyway, I asked her if she wouldn’t mind holding off with any divorce papers until I get my deed signed back over. Otherwise, the divorce goes through, he marries OW and OW gets a piece of my property. She’s looney but nice & doesn’t want to file anyway so that is an angle I’m playing.

Also got a text from S today telling me “relax. i’ll take care of it soon.” (yeah, just like the divorce.)

He is speaking with the wife now so I asked wife if she could mention my deed papers and tell him he needs to do this. She said she will mention it but he will tell her it’s not her business. She wrote she hopes the S and I can come to an agreement about the deed. I wrote “agreement?” I hope he’s not going to ask for $…because have have nothing. Nada. Zip.

This wife is a nutter too. When she married the S she was and still is married to someone else. She married a guy in another county for money to get him legal. Now she’s a biggamist?

I want out of this madhouse!! It’s a madhouse I tell you, a madhouse!”


Kat: I wish I had kids. I may not be able to have any.


I am going to stick to my story.. my kids are growing up and barely need me. I have raised them to be extremely independent.. problem is.. they are.. lol.. I will need something to fill that void.

I am agoraphobic, chronically depressed and basically terrified person.. so now ya knows.. I’ve graduated from my little college, taken every course they have, but I still can’t handle going out into the workforce. My future is by no means assured, because no matter what my circumstances, I do not seem to have what it takes to “make it” out there.

My life is a series of sometimes impossible and contradictory demands made by the agencies I depend on for survival for me and the kids. Believe me, I know they are my priceless treasures.. but I don’t own em, and they are leaving me one by one as they should. You can bonk me all day Ox, and it made me smile, and I don’t want anyone’s pity, but getting better… that just might not happen for me.

What I lost when I lost my bf, I lost the only love I ever felt, the only trust I ever extended.. I know in my heart I will never have the guts to do that again. I feel he robbed me of what may have been my only chance. I wish I had never heard his name, then maybe hope would still be alive for me. I don’t necessarily need a man, but I need a partner, someone to cushion life’s terrors for me, to have my back. This is a true need for me, not just a wish.


Also I do not care about money, the guy I broke up with BECAUSE I didn’t feel I could truly love him the way I was, was a millionaire and wanted just to take care of me and the kids. I lost a lot for my integrity. Money to me isn’t for one thing and one thing only.. security. Security is the one thing I absolutely cannot live without. I am willing to work.. hard too, but I can’t take the insecurity of the outside world. It’s such a deep rooted thing that no amount of exposure to it seems to do any good. I never hide from the world or from my responsibilities, but my feelings of terror and dread never go away.

Not everyone has whatever it is inside them that makes them succeed out there. I gave up my security for love, I’ll never do that again.. now I’m just another woman willing to compromise to put a roof over my children’s heads. I lost more than my illusions, I lost faith in my values.


Dear starlight and kat_o_nine_tales: You have yourself living and exploring life the way you want to live it … that will keep you more than busy.

Remember the first lie we read as children … kiss enough frogs and you will find your prince?

The truth to that story is: We are our own prince and the frogs of this world … well it seems, they read the book too. Come to think of it, when the frogs read the book was at the tender age of hating girls (yuk – girls – yuk) … mmmmmmmhhhh, I wonder if they ever outgrew that thought? Kept that thought in their subconscious all these years? Retaining that memory as we retained ours … never shall the two memories merge and meet in the middle.

P.S. Media spinning its wheels at it’s best to make $$$… manipulating young girls to to keep our hearts open and if we are willing to kiss enough frogs our prince … that knight in shinning armor will appear somewhere from the world … and frogs they are (ribbet, ribbet) … those fairy tales were instilled in young minds. It’s not your fault, but now the piece of apple is dislodged from your throats …. SWs’ get to awaken now …


Oh, and wait until you read between the lines of your other favorite tales … that should keep everyone busy. You can share your new insights on line with the rest of the bloggers.


I realize that I have been living my life according to some fairtytale script. And I am truly trying to shift my paradigm to what is possible. It is not easy. Everyday I realize another aspect in my life that screams of fantasy and storybook dreams. I don’t even know when I bought into that crap!

I have always prided myself on being an out of the box thinker, challenging the status quo. But I’m right there, in the middle of a huge box with the lid nailed shut. I guess it is all the unconscious cues that I have gotten from “between the lines” of those unrealistic tales. But now, I know that I am in one, and because of that I feel that I can taste freedom. Thanks Wini (((hugs)))


starlight: Now I understand why many many people just walk away and laugh when they hear a line coming their way.

Peace. Don’t beat yourself up, heal, move on and be creative and enjoy your life again …. after all, that is the best revenge against any of them. As for them “thump on the heads to all of you, get on your knees and pray to God for forgiveness”!!!


Kat, this part is for you.
You may not think you have anything or anyone, but it’s not true. You are not alone and your life is far from over! You have a community of people here who care about you and who can relate to what you are going through. You also have family (kids). It may not seem like much, but sometimes when you’re very down, it’s the little things that will pull you out. I am older than you. I will be 48 in a few weeks. I have no kids and no family to speak of. I had a small savings account but just spent most of it on a new furnace today for a small condo that I will probably be upside down on for the rest of my life, seriously. Sometimes life looks pretty bleak to me, too. But then I remember all the things I have to be grateful for, including the people here who have helped me so much. I just spent $3300 on a new furnace today, which pretty much wiped out my savings. But I feel incredibly grateful that I at least had the money saved to buy it. I know you, too, have more than you realize. I’m sending a big hug your way and hope it helps.

For Iwonder: No matter how much it costs you, no price is too great to rid your life of abusers, users, liars, and cheats. One of these days the nightmare will be over for you. Maybe when you lie down to sleep you could imagine what your life will be like without the stress of the P. With the goal in mind, maybe you can get some messages in your dreams/subconscious or from a higher power on the best way to proceed with the house situation. There has got to be a way out of this that doesn’t completely drain your energy. I’m sorry I don’t know the whole story. What would happen if you gave him his half and then sued him later in civil court, or something like that? Regarding his wife being in denial…..I am amazed at how many people in general are walking around in denial. We are the ones willing to face reality. It’s tough and it hurts. But you know what? At least it’s real.


Star gazer and Kat: Next New Years Eve and Valentines day, we should all party together … all LF friends getting together, to laugh and chat and have a great time.

Yup, yup, yup … we’ll all take these lemons thrown into our space and make lemonade. Hot lemonade toddies … yum, yum.



Well said StarG, well said. I’d rather face the truth, no matter what that truth be, than to live a lie any day.

I’m shaking my head, just as I did when I went through my suit with my bosses … imagining what they ALL could have done with all that energy, time and effort if it was focused on something positive instead of always, the negative?

Peace to all your hearts and souls as we heal from the heels.

Send this to a friend