Five and a half years ago I started a quest to understand sociopathy/psychopathy and antisocial behavior. Long before that, in 1981, I attended a lecture by Dr. Sarnoff Medick at USC. During that lecture, he presented the results of his research. His research on adopted children indicates that antisocial behavior has a strong measurable genetic basis. His studies did not single out anyone “diagnosed” a sociopath/psychopath they only examined antisocial behavior in parents and their biologic and adopted offspring.
Remembering these studies, I read them again and found many others demonstrating the genetic basis for antisocial behavior and sociopathy/psychopathy. Also at the beginning of my quest, I read Without Conscience by Dr. Robert Hare. (If you have not read it, I strongly recommend you do so.) That book teaches us about a category of people “psychopaths” who are without conscience and are antisocial. According to Without Conscience, psychopathy can only be diagnosed by professionals who using the PCL-R find a person scores over a certain cut-off. That book also makes reference to the genetic basis for “psychopathy.”
Questions about antisocial behavior, sociopaths and psychopaths
Reading all this material, I immediately questioned if psychopaths are a separate category of antisocial people. Many experts say “psychopaths” represent 1% of the general population and 25% of the prison population. I also wondered what the other 75% of the prison population would be considered. To my dismay I found several studies showing that many maximum security, very antisocial and violent criminals would not be considered “psychopaths” according to the PCL-R.
Three things about the research reports troubled me then, and also now. First of all what good is it to tell people there are a category of dangerous “psychopaths” out there and then in the next sentence to say that only trained professionals can tell who “they” are? Second of all, there are many very antisocial and violent individuals who “professionals” say are not “psychopaths.” In fact, studies of pedophiles indicate they are less likely to be “psychopaths” than other sexual offenders. What? Excuse me? Thirdly, while saying psychopathy is genetic, scientists imply that it is 100% genetic and that is simply not true. No study has found the disorder is 100% genetic.
These 3 issues lead me to focus on antisocial behavior again as opposed to a specific category of people, psychopaths or sociopaths. If we focus on antisocial behavior we can clearly identify people who commit a large number of antisocial acts. For these people harming others has become a way of life and is not something they do only occasionally. It does not take a professional to identify antisocial behavior or harm.
The focus should be first on antisocial behavior, then the personality traits of those who show a lot of it
Many experts agree with the idea that our focus should be on antisocial behavior first, then we should try to understand what characteristics very antisocial people have in common. In their book The Psychology of Criminal Conduct, Drs. Andrews and Bonta state, “A general Antisocial Personality Pattern may be more relevant than psychopathological models of antisocial personality. If we limit ourselves to the personality traits and behavioral patterns of highly antisocial persons, then we have little need for concepts such as APD (sociopathy) and Psychopathy.”
Dr. Hare also states in a recent paper, “In any case, the use of a threshold or cut score for “diagnosing” psychopathy is problematical, given recent taxometric evidence that the PCL-R (Guay, Ruscio, Knight, & Hare, 2007) and its derivatives (Edens, Marcus, Lilienfeld, & Poythress, 2006; Walters et al., 2007) measure a dimensional construct. Cut scores are useful for communication among researchers, but of necessity are somewhat arbitrary when used for diagnostic purposes. The real issue is not how difficult it may be to reach a given “threshold” but how variations in the psychopathy dimensions relate to variables of interest, including normal range personality processes (Hare & Neumann, 2008; Lynam & Widiger, 2007).
In other words, in his scientific writings, Dr. Hare says that the best use of the PCL-R is to describe the personality traits of people we have otherwise categorized. Using it to “diagnose” psychopathy is “problematical.”
Where do we go from here and is sociopathy/psychopathy still a relevant concept?
Sociopathy (antisocial behavior) and psychopathy, or the cluster of personality traits that those with antisocial behavior have, are still very important to understand. First most people do not habitually engage in harmful antisocial behavior. It is important for us to understand all the factors, from personality to social circumstance that contribute to habitual antisocial behavior, or sociopathy.
Psychopathy represents a cluster of personality traits that are commonly found in very antisocial people (sociopaths). There is no cut-off score for determining “a psychopath.” It is more correct to say that high scores on measures of psychopathy indicate the presence of psychopathic personality traits to an extreme degree.
Let’s go ahead and call a spade a spade and categorize sociopaths
Is there any way to categorize sociopaths? Yes I say there is. There are distinct categories that people who are very psychopathic fall into, obvious examples include: con artists, rapists, child molesters and career criminals. Less obvious examples include: pathologic liars, unscrupulous sales people, and the perpetrators of domestic violence.
Your basic bad relationship choice
I also want to point out that most individuals who are your basic “bad relationship choice” are more psychopathic than the average person. So it is OK to call them psychopaths for the sake of convenience. The category, “bad relationship choice” includes people who repeatedly cheat on their mates, lie to them, and manipulate them. Hear me if your lover cheats on you, lies to you all the time, tries to destroy your reputation, takes your money, manipulates you and/or tries to control you, he or she is very psychopathic. That is not normal behavior. People who love one another are supposed to take special care of each other. Get away from that psychopath now before you are destroyed!
The good news
Did you make a “bad relationship choice”? Do you know a pathological liar? If you answer yes to these questions you do not need me or any specially trained expert to tell you the person you know is very psychopathic- a psychopath and a sociopath. If you want to review the set of personality traits that pathological liars, “bad relationship choices,” con artists, rapists, pedophiles, and career criminals have in common, see What is a sociopath? and Dr. Robert Hare’s symptoms of psychopaths. Use the list of personality traits to decide for yourself just how psychopathic that person you know is.
Without Conscience: by Dr. Robert Hare.
Yes I did and it what one of the best reads I had the chance to study!
“bad relationship choice”
I refer to them as “toxic” insomuch that being around them causes us to have a negative reaction both emotionally physically and mentally. Something that would happen if one did in fact come in contact with some form of toxic waste. I heard this term “toxic” used by other people and can see the relation to it applied to “bad relationship choice”. Most of us not being trained in the field of psychology and psychopathological models of antisocial personality tend to try to understand them by using laymen terminology. We too struggle with the concept of those that are indeed “bad relationship choice”. Even with concerns in clusters of a person who suffer from a personality disorder leaves one with more questions then answers.
Thanks for your article which as always open up doors of thought and opportunity!
Dear Dr. Leedom,
GREAT ARTICLE, and clears up a lot of things, makes it more simple for the “layman” to understand. (Even the “professional” to understand).
Your comment about some sexual predators not being “psychopaths” was interesting too. I read one of Dr. Anna Salter’s books for reference when I was writing to the parole board to try to keep the Trojan Horse Psychopath incarcerated and was interested to see that hardly any of the sexual molesters of children were actually classified as “psychopaths” or “sociopaths” and prior to reading her book, I would have thought that would have been a “given”—just because they molested children sexually, if for no other reason. Yet, your article does clarify why they might not actually BE what we would otherwise think of as “APD” or “PPD”–interesting concepts.
“Poor relationship choice” is sure an UNDERSTATEMENT though! LOL But, it is DEFINITELY TRUE, and IT DEFINITELY FITS!
In the end, “A rose by any other name….” Thanks for the article.
James: TOXIC IS EXACTLY WHAT THEY ARE. I remember my suit with my bosses and feeling their toxicity oozing through every pore of me. I felt as if I showered and showered and showered it would not wash off or out of me. I had to hang in there though … fighting the good fight to bring these anti-socials into the light. I remember when it first started. I would look behind me and all around me … looking for who they were talking to. It was then I realized they were talking to me … in such derogatory and degrading ways … only a sociopath could come up with. After I got passed this shock and the subsequent shocks to come down the road … because no matter how low a sociopaths goes today, s/he can always going much lower tomorrow. I never underestimated any of them, while going through my kangaroo courts to get their lies to stick on me, no matter how they tried to get them to stick. When I finally (and this was years later) got decent stewards to represent me … I would ask them to watch all the paychecks being wasted as the suits sat across the table from us. This one made this amount of money per year and that one made that amount of money, this one’s salary was in this range, and that one’s salary was in that range. Pay attention to how much of the tax payers money is being wasted sitting at this table. Yes, I included my salary and the salaries of my stewards being wasted to having to sit and listen to this garbage. I can’t even give them the benefit of the doubt that what they made me endure was nonsense… because it was all GARBAGE. Period.
Peace.
Oh, and after I got out of that hell hole … it took years to wash this toxicity out of my life. Step by step, day by day, to unwind all this toxicity out. Then of course, the 2nd shoe fell and I found out I was being doubled whammied by sociopaths at the same time. I had no clue about my EX as he smiled to my face and held me in his arms … told me that he was standing by my side during this suit. Me and you, going through life together. I never had the time to pay attention or see any red flags. I was too busy keeping my head above water with the sociopaths I worked for, never thinking or knowing a sociopath was engaged to me.
That’s why I consider him more evil than any of those from my work … and more cowardly. How convenient for him, sociopaths are destroying me at work and he’s destroying me at home. It was a win/win situation all the away around for them. They couldn’t get me to buckle and back down, rest assure, I’ll destroy her from her inner most core.
Peace.
Good insights Dr. Leedon.
From the point of view of us “lay” people diagnosing the P/S/N/’s that we had had the misfortune of being involved with, I think one of the reasons the info is so important is that we can come to grips that there is NO TREATMENT. This is VERY important as we struggle to disconnect from someone we have been with because we “loved” the good side presented by the con.
Once we understand that our P’s behavior is not just an innappropriate reaction to some external event, but a CONDITION – our nurturing instinct to fix,.change or help, is set on its proverbial ass and we have to look to saving what is left of our own sweet self.
As far as the symptoms, warning signs etc, I have come to believe that anyone that uses lies as a STRATEGY – as a method of dealing with life, is likely a P and should be avoided.
I made the mistake of overlooking and discounting lies by my ex in business practice, as industry practice. Even tho I was in the same business and avoided lying at all costs, prided myself on my word is my bond, etc, ruthless business practice was highly rewarded, then as now, and I minimized the importance of what that meant as far as the character of my ex. largely because I believed in all his “family values” persona. WRONG.
Ultimately, just as it is impossible to do business with a chronic liar, it is impossible to build a life with one. Period. Call it what you will.
And that is part of the blessed relief of finally detaching from a P. We might be alone, but we are free from “living a lie”, which is where we end up, knowingly or not, when involved with a P. On some level we are conscious that things are always “off” and the consequence is that we feel off balance, not right. And that is exactly where the P wants us. Makes their job a lot easier.
It is a hard learned lesson to survive close contact with a P, but maybe a lot like surviving a bad virus. We come through it with a stronger immune system. Our antibodies have done their job. We are whole again and healthy.
Hugs to all
Dear eyeswideshut,
Some very VERY good points that you brought out, especially about the LIES in business.
Liars that will lie as an “industry” practice, are not going to be “truth tellers” in everything else. If lying is “ok” in one setting (business) why is it “not okay” in your personal life? Of course it is. A lie is a lie. A LIAR is a LIAR.
If they will be “crooked” business people, they will be “crooked” personal relations.
Your analogy about the “virus” is so right on as well, I hadn’t thought of it that way, but you are so good with that one, our IMMUNE SYSTEM COMES OUT STRONGER AND EQUIPPED TO FIGHT OFF FUTURE Ps —GReat Analogy!
When I read Without Conscience, flags went up and sirens went off. This was my brother. While not violent (to my knowledge), he lies, manipulates and cons people, especially women. Although one former male employer said, “he couldn’t have violated me more unless I was a woman.”
He recently began cyberstalking a friend of mine. She can tell from her logs that he visits her blog a few times a day, sometimes in the middle of the night. He posted a few absurd comments (probably written while he was drinking) which she didn’t approve to be published.
He has been mentioned in blogs and a few web sites and some of his arrest records are published online. He can no longer brag about his “accomplishments,” telling people to search on his name. Although not by name, he was mentioned in a recent article on cnn.com about trust and betryal.
I used to wish that his life of lies and victimizing people would catch up with him. I prayed that he’d be picked up on his warrants. I hoped that the whole world would see him for what he is. The fact that he is up in the middle of the night checking a stranger’s blog (he’s never even met my friend), to see if she published his comments or remarked about them, makes me think that his pathetic life may already be punishment enough. It can’t feel good to be him.
Or am I wrong? Do they even feel any discomfort as a result of their behavior?
I think a name is just a name, it is a bases to work off. No two N/P/Ss are the same, just as no two people are the same. The N/P/Ss have minds that are different and they can come up with some interesting ideas all their own that they share with us, and we like them. We find them interesting, or why would we be with them? The N/S/P designation is a starting point. It gives us a tool to deal with very difficult, abusive situations. The tool is invaluable, and anyone who is in an abusive relationship and then somehow comes across the word N/P/S and then realizes that the person in question might just be one, is very lucky! To have the tools to deal with abuse, what a blessing! Who cares if we are social workers or psychiatrists! We are people who have been abused and now we have the tools to deal with it. Thank god that these labels exist! I don’t think the label does anything for the S/P/N. The label is clearly for the victim.
The one thing that has been bothering me today, is his total lack of insight that my ex sociopath has. When we were going through it, he kept saying to me “but i can’t help it.” That statement puzzled me like nothing else. What do you mean you can’t help it! I was 6 months pregnant and he promised me he was “in”. He promised! What do you mean you can’t help that you fell in love with another women? He can’t help it, hum bug. The reason it bothers me is because I talked to him the other day. I know I broke NC, but he got me on the phone. His father did the same thing to him when he was in his mothers womb. That is left her for another women when she was pregnant with him. And I said to him on the phone, “you know I read that malignant narcissists often re-inact traumatic childhood events”. This comes from Sam Vaknins book. He said to me “But that would imply that I planned this.” I replied, “well, it is probably not conscience.”
Sam Vaknins book does say that they totally lack insight. But I just can’t believe to what extent. It really feels like insight could not come even if it were a train that smacked them in brood daylight. I find my ex sociopaths lack of insight, eerie today.
betrayed-they do feel pain sometimes. Their entire life is one big midlife crisis. They feel horrible enough inside to move from one crisis to the next. But they don’t feel horrible for what they have done to you or others. Oh no. Rather it is that sometimes they see that the fantasy of their life does not match their reality. And that brief moment when they see reality, hurts them. This might cause them to degrade and humiliate someone so that they feel high on their horse again.
bird: If he said “I can’t help it” probably means that he can’t take responsibility either way of anything life has to offer. My thinking tonight of them being perfectionists not doing … therefore, not failing at whatever it is they have to do. To sit back or conveniently take off is “not doing anything”. Right or wrong … they aren’t to blame … in their minds. Therefore, they keep the perfectionist saga going and wasn’t to blame for any future failing … being with his pregnant girlfriend, raising the child and if it turned out bad … he had nothing to do with raising this kid … he’s blameless in his own mind … not to shatter his perfectionist way of thinking.
One of my bosses was married prior to his current marriage (to a psychiatrist of all people, no clue to what her husband is all about). Anyway, his first wife came down with cancer. She came home from her appointment and told him the grim news. He packed his bags that night and was single for years after the divorce. He is a perfectionist. He got perfect scores on being the “dirtbag” of our company after that fiasco. Anyway, years later married a psychiatrist … travels with her at any of her numerous conferences around the globe. When he’d return to the office I’d ask him how Hawaii was or Europe or where ever they went … his answer was always standard “It would have been a good trip if we didn’t have the two kids with us”. Enough said on that note. Clueless that his selfish self is projecting it’s self on those two little innocent kids. Finally I told him, love your kids … take responsibility for bringing them into the world and just love them, no matter how you love them. If you love your children they will feel that love and that love becomes their foundation. Firm foundation that mom and dad loved us.
Besides I told him … you were single for years and I worked for you … and never did any women call you during those dry years of you not dating … so your single life wasn’t what you seem to make it cracked out to be. He said “wini, everything would be perfect if those two kids weren’t in my life”. I said, grow up, they are here … love them. Well, this conversation didn’t sink in …every Monday he came in like a bear and kicking and throwing temper tantrums about his home life, and his wife and his kids and he wanted to just chuck it all and be single again.
Go figure. Perfectionist at work … don’t ever want to do anything … so in their minds … not doing anything allows them not to fail and not to succeed. They win in their own minds playing or being crippled by perfectionism … it’s just the havoc that they wreak in everyone’s lives.
Think back about your EX. Is there a streak of perfectionist in him?
Peace.
Dear Dr. Leedom:
Thank you for your article. One of the issues that I have been pondering as I reflect on my past experience with my ex-S/P is the issue of a “bad realtionship choice”. I started to analyze some friendships that I had, and I came to the conclusion that those relationships “groomed” me for my ex-husband. They exhibited many of the same attributes. Lying, manipulation and the utter disregard for how their actions hurt me and others. It was as if they would say, “yeah I hurt you, so what!! I DARE you to do anything about it”. So, I wondered…What does that make THEM? So I now see it is okay to call a spade a spade. I have not read the books you mentioned, however, I am looking forward to doing so.