Five and a half years ago I started a quest to understand sociopathy/psychopathy and antisocial behavior. Long before that, in 1981, I attended a lecture by Dr. Sarnoff Medick at USC. During that lecture, he presented the results of his research. His research on adopted children indicates that antisocial behavior has a strong measurable genetic basis. His studies did not single out anyone “diagnosed” a sociopath/psychopath they only examined antisocial behavior in parents and their biologic and adopted offspring.
Remembering these studies, I read them again and found many others demonstrating the genetic basis for antisocial behavior and sociopathy/psychopathy. Also at the beginning of my quest, I read Without Conscience by Dr. Robert Hare. (If you have not read it, I strongly recommend you do so.) That book teaches us about a category of people “psychopaths” who are without conscience and are antisocial. According to Without Conscience, psychopathy can only be diagnosed by professionals who using the PCL-R find a person scores over a certain cut-off. That book also makes reference to the genetic basis for “psychopathy.”
Questions about antisocial behavior, sociopaths and psychopaths
Reading all this material, I immediately questioned if psychopaths are a separate category of antisocial people. Many experts say “psychopaths” represent 1% of the general population and 25% of the prison population. I also wondered what the other 75% of the prison population would be considered. To my dismay I found several studies showing that many maximum security, very antisocial and violent criminals would not be considered “psychopaths” according to the PCL-R.
Three things about the research reports troubled me then, and also now. First of all what good is it to tell people there are a category of dangerous “psychopaths” out there and then in the next sentence to say that only trained professionals can tell who “they” are? Second of all, there are many very antisocial and violent individuals who “professionals” say are not “psychopaths.” In fact, studies of pedophiles indicate they are less likely to be “psychopaths” than other sexual offenders. What? Excuse me? Thirdly, while saying psychopathy is genetic, scientists imply that it is 100% genetic and that is simply not true. No study has found the disorder is 100% genetic.
These 3 issues lead me to focus on antisocial behavior again as opposed to a specific category of people, psychopaths or sociopaths. If we focus on antisocial behavior we can clearly identify people who commit a large number of antisocial acts. For these people harming others has become a way of life and is not something they do only occasionally. It does not take a professional to identify antisocial behavior or harm.
The focus should be first on antisocial behavior, then the personality traits of those who show a lot of it
Many experts agree with the idea that our focus should be on antisocial behavior first, then we should try to understand what characteristics very antisocial people have in common. In their book The Psychology of Criminal Conduct, Drs. Andrews and Bonta state, “A general Antisocial Personality Pattern may be more relevant than psychopathological models of antisocial personality. If we limit ourselves to the personality traits and behavioral patterns of highly antisocial persons, then we have little need for concepts such as APD (sociopathy) and Psychopathy.”
Dr. Hare also states in a recent paper, “In any case, the use of a threshold or cut score for “diagnosing” psychopathy is problematical, given recent taxometric evidence that the PCL-R (Guay, Ruscio, Knight, & Hare, 2007) and its derivatives (Edens, Marcus, Lilienfeld, & Poythress, 2006; Walters et al., 2007) measure a dimensional construct. Cut scores are useful for communication among researchers, but of necessity are somewhat arbitrary when used for diagnostic purposes. The real issue is not how difficult it may be to reach a given “threshold” but how variations in the psychopathy dimensions relate to variables of interest, including normal range personality processes (Hare & Neumann, 2008; Lynam & Widiger, 2007).
In other words, in his scientific writings, Dr. Hare says that the best use of the PCL-R is to describe the personality traits of people we have otherwise categorized. Using it to “diagnose” psychopathy is “problematical.”
Where do we go from here and is sociopathy/psychopathy still a relevant concept?
Sociopathy (antisocial behavior) and psychopathy, or the cluster of personality traits that those with antisocial behavior have, are still very important to understand. First most people do not habitually engage in harmful antisocial behavior. It is important for us to understand all the factors, from personality to social circumstance that contribute to habitual antisocial behavior, or sociopathy.
Psychopathy represents a cluster of personality traits that are commonly found in very antisocial people (sociopaths). There is no cut-off score for determining “a psychopath.” It is more correct to say that high scores on measures of psychopathy indicate the presence of psychopathic personality traits to an extreme degree.
Let’s go ahead and call a spade a spade and categorize sociopaths
Is there any way to categorize sociopaths? Yes I say there is. There are distinct categories that people who are very psychopathic fall into, obvious examples include: con artists, rapists, child molesters and career criminals. Less obvious examples include: pathologic liars, unscrupulous sales people, and the perpetrators of domestic violence.
Your basic bad relationship choice
I also want to point out that most individuals who are your basic “bad relationship choice” are more psychopathic than the average person. So it is OK to call them psychopaths for the sake of convenience. The category, “bad relationship choice” includes people who repeatedly cheat on their mates, lie to them, and manipulate them. Hear me if your lover cheats on you, lies to you all the time, tries to destroy your reputation, takes your money, manipulates you and/or tries to control you, he or she is very psychopathic. That is not normal behavior. People who love one another are supposed to take special care of each other. Get away from that psychopath now before you are destroyed!
The good news
Did you make a “bad relationship choice”? Do you know a pathological liar? If you answer yes to these questions you do not need me or any specially trained expert to tell you the person you know is very psychopathic- a psychopath and a sociopath. If you want to review the set of personality traits that pathological liars, “bad relationship choices,” con artists, rapists, pedophiles, and career criminals have in common, see What is a sociopath? and Dr. Robert Hare’s symptoms of psychopaths. Use the list of personality traits to decide for yourself just how psychopathic that person you know is.
LIG: Maybe someday your ex will go to prison and he’ll take my ex for his bitch!! LOL!11
Wini: Oh, Kat’s daughter is moving to NYC in December. LIG lives in NYC and I live in Jersey. We were writing about hooking up for a night out.
So many new posts to respond to!
Swivel, I know many people who do not dream or at least do not remember them. I think it’s because we live in a “logical” society that does not value the connection to the subconscious. We are taught to take pills, drink coffee, and do all kinds of things to numb us out from getting signs from our unconscious. We wake up to the sounds of alarms clocks and TV’s in the morning and fall asleep watching TV or doing other mind-numbing things. Most people do not even get enough sleep to begin with. None of this is conducive to a dream life. But I’m wondering if the inability to sleep much can be a common thing in P’s?
LIG: Regarding whether a sociopath has feelings, what I read is that they use the defense mechanism of denial. There are many different defense mechanisms that the different personality types use. For instance, borderlines use “splitting” (good guy/bad guy). Multiple personality disorders use “dissociation”. Most normal neurotic people can repress or suppress their feelings, which would indicate that the feelings lurk somewhere close to the surface already. Sociopaths deny their feelings to begin with. Feelings are not part of their reality. But they have learned that humans have these things called feelings. So they fill the void with a phony personality and phony feelings that they developed from very early on. They can fake human emotions so well, they are very lifelike. Mine once mentioned being suicidal over the pain he put me through. I feel in retrospect it was a form of manipulation. He also appears to worship his young daughter. Yet he was willing to risk custody of her to spend the night with me. Who knows how much of their so-called “love” for anyone is real? People can say anything. You have to look at the actions. For a sociopath, the words and actions never match up!
I have 25 messages from him on my voicemail telling me how he is in love with me and misses me, how he wishes he could be with me every day, how he hopes things will work out with us when the divorce is final….blah blah blah. His actions were to promise to call and not call. Promise to visit, and no call/no show. To disappear with no contact for days at a time, then suddenly be all over me again. Making up phony excuses, and making up a phony divorce that was not happening. THE ACTIONS ARE THE REALITY!!!! If a person really loves you, they will show you with their actions.
P.S. I’m totally up for a LF gathering if it could be some place central. (I volunteer my place in Denver!!!!)
Iwonder: Just be careful when dealing with your EX. If you can bs him into signing, fine. Don’t do anything that you can’t testify as the truth in a court of law. Meaning, stay on the side of the law when dealing with him.
Good luck. I know they do this stuff and it’s so weird. That’s why deep down inside they are really frightened little children. Spiritually stunted at whatever age from childhood. Little kids that can’t make it on their own.
I remember all the jobs I completed where I worked. After I completed a job … I was pushed to the side and all their names went on my work. So weird. Absolutely, weird.
Peace.
my ex is black/puerto rican; i’m white. jokingly he would sometimes call me ”the stupid white bitch.” guess it wasn’t a joke. he always messes with spanish girls, mostly dominican and puerto rican. i don’t know if there is any relevance here, except he told me they’re ‘the prettiest.’ (guess that makes me chopped liver?) but he doesn’t discriminate. he once told me that one of his ‘goals’ was to sleep with every race. i know of six or seven he’s already conquered. are there more?
i just think he finds girls that, when draped on his arm, makes other men jealous and makes him look like the pimp he is. he’s into really glam girls. make-up, high heels, lingerie, ironed hair … you know … 20 year olds! lol.
i feel sorry for all of them. he comes across as the catch of the century, but oh boy, they are always in for shock of their lives! he’s left a wake of multi-racial carnage behind him. doesn’t matter what size or shade, he has messed up a lot of female heads in his life. and i’m sure he’s proud of it.
LIG: Worms. Your ex only conquered six or seven? Mine has had 100’s of women. sick.
star: i have the SAME messages — 16 of ’em!!! i could have written your entire last paragraph! a slew of broken promises. i’ll call; doesn’t. i’m on my way over; never shows up. he promised to take me to the beach for three summers. another lie. geezus! they are pods i tell ya’!! PODS!!!
i understand now about the fake emotions. he’s better at it than a real person.
my ex also worships his daughter, but stays away from their home for days at a time. she’s a stunning young woman; i think that’s why he adores her (if he really does). i think she knows he’s a pod.
Iwonder: oh, hell no. not six or seven women. six or seven RACES!!! LOL. are you kidding, he’s had six or seven in a week! but here’s the kicker. he ACTUALLY believes he’s only slept with 10 women (i personally know of 15 or so). he used to tell me (and everybody) that he’s only had 10 lovers. everyone laughs at him, but he TRULY believes it. when anyone would question it he would look at them quizzically: “but it’s true. i’m not a whore.” can you stand it?
he always seemed to offer denials of things that everyone knew about him. his perfect mask can’t be lifted if you hold it down, right?
oy vey.
LIG & Star: Same story here. Near the end we were supposed to play raquetteball one day. I went out shopping and bought him nice work out clothes because he didn’t have anything to wear & he just didn’t even show up. I told him I was going to buy sneakers but we had to go shopping for those. He said, instead of sneakers, why don’t you buy me some stuff from GNC? He took my credit card and charged $100 worth of stuff. He was at the OW’s that day. scumbag.