Five and a half years ago I started a quest to understand sociopathy/psychopathy and antisocial behavior. Long before that, in 1981, I attended a lecture by Dr. Sarnoff Medick at USC. During that lecture, he presented the results of his research. His research on adopted children indicates that antisocial behavior has a strong measurable genetic basis. His studies did not single out anyone “diagnosed” a sociopath/psychopath they only examined antisocial behavior in parents and their biologic and adopted offspring.
Remembering these studies, I read them again and found many others demonstrating the genetic basis for antisocial behavior and sociopathy/psychopathy. Also at the beginning of my quest, I read Without Conscience by Dr. Robert Hare. (If you have not read it, I strongly recommend you do so.) That book teaches us about a category of people “psychopaths” who are without conscience and are antisocial. According to Without Conscience, psychopathy can only be diagnosed by professionals who using the PCL-R find a person scores over a certain cut-off. That book also makes reference to the genetic basis for “psychopathy.”
Questions about antisocial behavior, sociopaths and psychopaths
Reading all this material, I immediately questioned if psychopaths are a separate category of antisocial people. Many experts say “psychopaths” represent 1% of the general population and 25% of the prison population. I also wondered what the other 75% of the prison population would be considered. To my dismay I found several studies showing that many maximum security, very antisocial and violent criminals would not be considered “psychopaths” according to the PCL-R.
Three things about the research reports troubled me then, and also now. First of all what good is it to tell people there are a category of dangerous “psychopaths” out there and then in the next sentence to say that only trained professionals can tell who “they” are? Second of all, there are many very antisocial and violent individuals who “professionals” say are not “psychopaths.” In fact, studies of pedophiles indicate they are less likely to be “psychopaths” than other sexual offenders. What? Excuse me? Thirdly, while saying psychopathy is genetic, scientists imply that it is 100% genetic and that is simply not true. No study has found the disorder is 100% genetic.
These 3 issues lead me to focus on antisocial behavior again as opposed to a specific category of people, psychopaths or sociopaths. If we focus on antisocial behavior we can clearly identify people who commit a large number of antisocial acts. For these people harming others has become a way of life and is not something they do only occasionally. It does not take a professional to identify antisocial behavior or harm.
The focus should be first on antisocial behavior, then the personality traits of those who show a lot of it
Many experts agree with the idea that our focus should be on antisocial behavior first, then we should try to understand what characteristics very antisocial people have in common. In their book The Psychology of Criminal Conduct, Drs. Andrews and Bonta state, “A general Antisocial Personality Pattern may be more relevant than psychopathological models of antisocial personality. If we limit ourselves to the personality traits and behavioral patterns of highly antisocial persons, then we have little need for concepts such as APD (sociopathy) and Psychopathy.”
Dr. Hare also states in a recent paper, “In any case, the use of a threshold or cut score for “diagnosing” psychopathy is problematical, given recent taxometric evidence that the PCL-R (Guay, Ruscio, Knight, & Hare, 2007) and its derivatives (Edens, Marcus, Lilienfeld, & Poythress, 2006; Walters et al., 2007) measure a dimensional construct. Cut scores are useful for communication among researchers, but of necessity are somewhat arbitrary when used for diagnostic purposes. The real issue is not how difficult it may be to reach a given “threshold” but how variations in the psychopathy dimensions relate to variables of interest, including normal range personality processes (Hare & Neumann, 2008; Lynam & Widiger, 2007).
In other words, in his scientific writings, Dr. Hare says that the best use of the PCL-R is to describe the personality traits of people we have otherwise categorized. Using it to “diagnose” psychopathy is “problematical.”
Where do we go from here and is sociopathy/psychopathy still a relevant concept?
Sociopathy (antisocial behavior) and psychopathy, or the cluster of personality traits that those with antisocial behavior have, are still very important to understand. First most people do not habitually engage in harmful antisocial behavior. It is important for us to understand all the factors, from personality to social circumstance that contribute to habitual antisocial behavior, or sociopathy.
Psychopathy represents a cluster of personality traits that are commonly found in very antisocial people (sociopaths). There is no cut-off score for determining “a psychopath.” It is more correct to say that high scores on measures of psychopathy indicate the presence of psychopathic personality traits to an extreme degree.
Let’s go ahead and call a spade a spade and categorize sociopaths
Is there any way to categorize sociopaths? Yes I say there is. There are distinct categories that people who are very psychopathic fall into, obvious examples include: con artists, rapists, child molesters and career criminals. Less obvious examples include: pathologic liars, unscrupulous sales people, and the perpetrators of domestic violence.
Your basic bad relationship choice
I also want to point out that most individuals who are your basic “bad relationship choice” are more psychopathic than the average person. So it is OK to call them psychopaths for the sake of convenience. The category, “bad relationship choice” includes people who repeatedly cheat on their mates, lie to them, and manipulate them. Hear me if your lover cheats on you, lies to you all the time, tries to destroy your reputation, takes your money, manipulates you and/or tries to control you, he or she is very psychopathic. That is not normal behavior. People who love one another are supposed to take special care of each other. Get away from that psychopath now before you are destroyed!
The good news
Did you make a “bad relationship choice”? Do you know a pathological liar? If you answer yes to these questions you do not need me or any specially trained expert to tell you the person you know is very psychopathic- a psychopath and a sociopath. If you want to review the set of personality traits that pathological liars, “bad relationship choices,” con artists, rapists, pedophiles, and career criminals have in common, see What is a sociopath? and Dr. Robert Hare’s symptoms of psychopaths. Use the list of personality traits to decide for yourself just how psychopathic that person you know is.
Iwonder YES I will make a sweet revenge cake too!!! And your post is so true, taking them back would be digging our own grave. And it would be a slow miserable death for us if we did. I think we all took them back more than we care to mention…. Wini when I get involved with a real person – yes that will be a good day – but I need time – I am no fun right now – I need to heal completley before that real person comes along – and I will……..thanks all
Wini,
That’s exactly right!!! (Have some experience with P’s? ha ha). He knew I was upset when he would promise to call and not call. So he would keep his promises for a while and say, “See, haven’t I been doing what I said I would do?” He kept just enough promises to string me along.
The most chilling thing he said to me happened at the end, after the sudden discard (which he didn’t even take responsibility for!). He knew if he pulled a no call/no show again, I would leave him. So that’s exactly what he did–no call no show (while posting on our website knowing I’d see him there!). Two days later, when he emailed me, he said, “I know I went too far. I have no excuse. But I’ll always love you though.”
“I know I went too far.” What kind of person says stuff like this? Only someone who considers the relationship as a game. That gave me the creepiest feeling inside to read that. I could feel the lack of emotion through the email.
The next day I got another email saying “I hope we can work this out.” This series of behaviors was the most psychotic thing I’d ever experienced!
Henry: I hate to bust your bubble, but they always come back. Like bad pennies. It’s natural for them to come back into people’s lives … because of the familiarity. They’ll stay away for years if they move to another state or get involved with one partner after the other. But, if they catch themselves in between relationships … that’s when you will get a knock on the door. This time, just tell him that you know he can’t feel life. He’ll appreciate the fact that you know and aren’t judging him and sending him on his way. Because that’s all they get from feeling people is …sending them on their way. They know that routine like the back of their hands. The mess up with everyone because they can’t feel. They have no breaks to stop them from doing anything. They try to learn the rules by reprimands that came their way all their lives … and haven’t a clue except people say “NO”, “STOP”, “You can’t do this or you can’t do that”. They can’t feel why they can’t do something, all they know is they can’t. Why do you think the most horrendous things are done in society by them. When no one is with them, when they are on their own… for those brief minutes … they do what others ask them not to do? Why? Because they want to know why they can’t do something? When they do something that’s horrendous, they have no clue what the big deal is!
Peace.
I can’t imagine mine would ever come back. I’m pretty sure he’s out of my life for good. He had gotten me to fall in love with him. He’d gotten to bed the most popular person on the reptile site (me). And he figured out I have no money. I think there is nowhere for him to go with that one.
Stargazer: How can I put this so you’ll understand and not be upset. Imagine going out in the world tomorrow and you can’t feel your emotions. You just walk through the world thinking, hearing and seeing everything … but you can’t feel life. You can smell a rose, but you can’t feel the emotions a rose triggers in side of you. You see the sun shinning and the trees in bloom and all the people, but you can’t feel your emotions about anything you encounter that day. You just drive to work, nothing spectacular happens because you are just driving … oh, oh, that poor old lady just got hit by a car and is a bloody mess in the middle of the road. You don’t shirk back in horror, you do nothing. You are just noticing the fact that a little old lady got hit by a car and soon someone is going to scoop her body off the ground. No feelings about this … just viewing it … like it’s a silent movie. That’s how they are every day of their lives. They jump from one person to another to another to another to another … cause we are all the same to them. We’re like a clothe rack of the same shirts … over and over and over again. Thousands of the same shirt on one rack. Now, would a specific shirt jump out at you and make you feel something special to buy it?
That’s about the jest of them. Pray for them. That’s all we can do. Pray for them and cry for them. It’s ok to have your hearts break over their condition. It breaks my heart every time … and I’ve known many of them.
Peace.
oxy I think you remember the the pain and anxiety you were in back in may 07. You were scared and confused and the house held those memorys and trigger’s. The little RV has been comforting and secure. I am glad you are moving back in the house. I am happy you have been able to carry on after so many years of chit from the one’s you loved. [ Seen properly, what is any dark mental or emotional habit — such as fearfully trying to protect ourselves from what “may be” other than the unconscience practice of perfecting what punishes us?] This is a good thing moving back into YOUR house OXY…
Wini, it doesn’t upset me. It does trigger memories that corroborate what you’ve said. Like I remember listening to music around him and trying to dance with him. He just couldn’t feel the music at all, even though it is supposedly his favorite music. He couldn’t feel the emotion of it. It’s actually kind of sad. I just figured he can’t dance, like lots of people. But in order to dance, it helps to have some sort of connection with music.
wini (Tell him I know he can’t feel life) I will try to remember that, cause that sum’s him up darned well. But he won’t be back, he never wanted to be here to begin with – I was just a stepping stone for him – I helped him better his situation and he is moving up – he won’t come back down – he know’s I am not a sugar daddy – I can’t afford to be a sugar daddy – so as long as he can get it up – he will continue moving up……..
I worked right next to a psycho last go around when I worked. What am I talking about, I worked with a lot of psychos … the place is jammed packed with them.
Anyway, the guy that sat next to me is the same age as me. Was always spending his money on concerts. I said “D” concerts are so expensive today, you are dropping $300-$400 dollars on a group you can spend $20 buck and get the CDs. He said he went to concerts so he could sense the loud speakers. That’s as close to feeling this guy could get … getting near loud speakers that rock the room.
Peace.
M – worked at a place that make’s cardboard boxes (lol) oxy will get the humor in that! anyway ever nite when he came home he would of course talk about his day and how something went wrong and he blamed everything that went wrong on some female that he didnt like, He said she was trying to sabatoge his work so her quto would be better than his…and he would go on and on about how he could do a better job than everyone else. I wonder if he still works there? Or if they realized he is a spath and got rid of him? He always boasted about all his past job’s – how he took this business and made it better than ever – but he never seems to stay anyplace for more than a few years, but he does seem to have a good work ethic – but no goals – just seem’s to live in the moment – not caring about the past or to concerned about the future – is this called grandiose?