Five and a half years ago I started a quest to understand sociopathy/psychopathy and antisocial behavior. Long before that, in 1981, I attended a lecture by Dr. Sarnoff Medick at USC. During that lecture, he presented the results of his research. His research on adopted children indicates that antisocial behavior has a strong measurable genetic basis. His studies did not single out anyone “diagnosed” a sociopath/psychopath they only examined antisocial behavior in parents and their biologic and adopted offspring.
Remembering these studies, I read them again and found many others demonstrating the genetic basis for antisocial behavior and sociopathy/psychopathy. Also at the beginning of my quest, I read Without Conscience by Dr. Robert Hare. (If you have not read it, I strongly recommend you do so.) That book teaches us about a category of people “psychopaths” who are without conscience and are antisocial. According to Without Conscience, psychopathy can only be diagnosed by professionals who using the PCL-R find a person scores over a certain cut-off. That book also makes reference to the genetic basis for “psychopathy.”
Questions about antisocial behavior, sociopaths and psychopaths
Reading all this material, I immediately questioned if psychopaths are a separate category of antisocial people. Many experts say “psychopaths” represent 1% of the general population and 25% of the prison population. I also wondered what the other 75% of the prison population would be considered. To my dismay I found several studies showing that many maximum security, very antisocial and violent criminals would not be considered “psychopaths” according to the PCL-R.
Three things about the research reports troubled me then, and also now. First of all what good is it to tell people there are a category of dangerous “psychopaths” out there and then in the next sentence to say that only trained professionals can tell who “they” are? Second of all, there are many very antisocial and violent individuals who “professionals” say are not “psychopaths.” In fact, studies of pedophiles indicate they are less likely to be “psychopaths” than other sexual offenders. What? Excuse me? Thirdly, while saying psychopathy is genetic, scientists imply that it is 100% genetic and that is simply not true. No study has found the disorder is 100% genetic.
These 3 issues lead me to focus on antisocial behavior again as opposed to a specific category of people, psychopaths or sociopaths. If we focus on antisocial behavior we can clearly identify people who commit a large number of antisocial acts. For these people harming others has become a way of life and is not something they do only occasionally. It does not take a professional to identify antisocial behavior or harm.
The focus should be first on antisocial behavior, then the personality traits of those who show a lot of it
Many experts agree with the idea that our focus should be on antisocial behavior first, then we should try to understand what characteristics very antisocial people have in common. In their book The Psychology of Criminal Conduct, Drs. Andrews and Bonta state, “A general Antisocial Personality Pattern may be more relevant than psychopathological models of antisocial personality. If we limit ourselves to the personality traits and behavioral patterns of highly antisocial persons, then we have little need for concepts such as APD (sociopathy) and Psychopathy.”
Dr. Hare also states in a recent paper, “In any case, the use of a threshold or cut score for “diagnosing” psychopathy is problematical, given recent taxometric evidence that the PCL-R (Guay, Ruscio, Knight, & Hare, 2007) and its derivatives (Edens, Marcus, Lilienfeld, & Poythress, 2006; Walters et al., 2007) measure a dimensional construct. Cut scores are useful for communication among researchers, but of necessity are somewhat arbitrary when used for diagnostic purposes. The real issue is not how difficult it may be to reach a given “threshold” but how variations in the psychopathy dimensions relate to variables of interest, including normal range personality processes (Hare & Neumann, 2008; Lynam & Widiger, 2007).
In other words, in his scientific writings, Dr. Hare says that the best use of the PCL-R is to describe the personality traits of people we have otherwise categorized. Using it to “diagnose” psychopathy is “problematical.”
Where do we go from here and is sociopathy/psychopathy still a relevant concept?
Sociopathy (antisocial behavior) and psychopathy, or the cluster of personality traits that those with antisocial behavior have, are still very important to understand. First most people do not habitually engage in harmful antisocial behavior. It is important for us to understand all the factors, from personality to social circumstance that contribute to habitual antisocial behavior, or sociopathy.
Psychopathy represents a cluster of personality traits that are commonly found in very antisocial people (sociopaths). There is no cut-off score for determining “a psychopath.” It is more correct to say that high scores on measures of psychopathy indicate the presence of psychopathic personality traits to an extreme degree.
Let’s go ahead and call a spade a spade and categorize sociopaths
Is there any way to categorize sociopaths? Yes I say there is. There are distinct categories that people who are very psychopathic fall into, obvious examples include: con artists, rapists, child molesters and career criminals. Less obvious examples include: pathologic liars, unscrupulous sales people, and the perpetrators of domestic violence.
Your basic bad relationship choice
I also want to point out that most individuals who are your basic “bad relationship choice” are more psychopathic than the average person. So it is OK to call them psychopaths for the sake of convenience. The category, “bad relationship choice” includes people who repeatedly cheat on their mates, lie to them, and manipulate them. Hear me if your lover cheats on you, lies to you all the time, tries to destroy your reputation, takes your money, manipulates you and/or tries to control you, he or she is very psychopathic. That is not normal behavior. People who love one another are supposed to take special care of each other. Get away from that psychopath now before you are destroyed!
The good news
Did you make a “bad relationship choice”? Do you know a pathological liar? If you answer yes to these questions you do not need me or any specially trained expert to tell you the person you know is very psychopathic- a psychopath and a sociopath. If you want to review the set of personality traits that pathological liars, “bad relationship choices,” con artists, rapists, pedophiles, and career criminals have in common, see What is a sociopath? and Dr. Robert Hare’s symptoms of psychopaths. Use the list of personality traits to decide for yourself just how psychopathic that person you know is.
I’m new to this blog. This is the first time I ever posted a comment. I was wondering if anyone can give me ideas about what to think about the situation I am in. I read all the “Dr. Hare’s Symptoms of Psychopaths” I think my daughter’s husband has all the symptoms. I wish I would have known about this earlier. I never hear anyone talking about S in public. Plus, I think I was “in the web” or “in a fog” as I had contact with this young man. It is amazing to me what things I remember now that I didn’t take notice of over the last year.
The reason I am having a big problems with my son-in-law is because he must be somehow influencing my daughter to not have contact with her family. I haven’t been able to talk (a conversation)or do anything with my daughter since she got married. Now, they moved to another state and she calls me back after a week or more and it is very superficial and strained. We used to be a very close family, so this is very different. First, he somehow got her in fights with of all her girlfriends and now he is isolating her in another state. Does this sound familar to anyone? Have you ever had a similar situation? It doesn’t seem possible he could break up our family. Everything used to seem so peaceful in life, but now, I find it amazing how much suffering and destruction is in our lives. Does anyone have a good book they would reccomend to a daughter that is “in the fog”. I don’t know how long it will take until she will come out of the “dream state”. I know you talked about S crying. I have never cried like this before, either. S is a pathological liar, but I don’t think my daughter recognizes it. Maybe she does, but she is “in a fog”. Did any of you start yelling at your family and friends once you started living with a S? Were you “on edge” and unhappy and complaining? This was not my daughter’s old personality at all. She has totally changed and even her voice sounded different. What is your advice for what I can do to best help her? What would help her to recognize what is going on?
Dear Onajourney,
Welcome to Lovefraud, and I am glad you have found your way here on your journey.
My son C married one of the Ps about 8 yrs ago. I knew from the get go that she was “deceptive” but just didn’t realize just HOW DECEPTIVE she was. She also isolated him from us.
I also have a son who is in prison who is a Psychopath, so know the thing from “both sides”—
Yes, they isolate you from your family to keep CONTROL over you. They convince you that your family/friends are evil and that they are the only one who “truly loves” them. This is pretty typical psychopathic behavior.
I suggest tht you go back through ALL the archives here and read the articles themselves, and then when you have completed that, you can go back and read the bloggers comments if you have the time. All is good information.
KNOWLEDGE=POWER.
You are right, your daughter is IN THE FOG. Also you might want to read about the Stockholm Syndrome where the victim starts to worship the abuser.
Having empathy for the condition your daughter is in, and knowledge of what she is going through is your only weapon. Fighting him directly or head on is a lost cause and will cause her to retreat even further. It will play right into his hands to convince her that YOU are the evil person who is “out to get her” and she will protect him like a mama bear protects her cub.
It took me 8 years of heart ache from the time my son got hooked up with this woman ON THE INTERNET, she married him for a meal ticket because she had a disabled son who was not expected to live a very long life, he died about a couple of months before their divorce.
She and her Boy FRiend tried to kill my son (short version) but were both put in jail. The BF is in prison now, but the now-X DIL is out on probation with a no contact order.
I get on my knees and THANK GOD every day that she had the affair with the man and then tried unsuccessfullly to kill my son, because otherwise he would NEVER HAVE LEFT HER. Even after he found out about the affair he offered to go to counseling with her and “work it out.” I also found out after the fact that she had financiallly, emotionally, and physically abused my son for almost the entire marriage.
I do know the pain of having a child who is “brainwashed” by one of these monsters, but you can’t “fix” the situation, your daughter will have to come to you, so just PRAY FOR HER, and NO MATTER WHAT, LET HER KNOW YOU ARE THERE FOR HER ALWAYS. Be very careful to never be critical of her or him, I know that will be difficult, believe me I know.
Hopefully, your daughter will come out of the fog on her own and you will be waiting there to hold her close and to support her while she heals.
The most wonderful words I ever heard from my son C was after his wife was taken to jail with her BF, I rushed over to his house and as he saw me drive up he ran to me and hugged me so tight and he said “Mom, I am soooo sorry, you were a prophet, and you were so right” I told him, “Honey, I was no prophet, I just had a gut feeling, but it is over now and you are safe, and my prayers have been answered.”
It is difficult to pray for something and to have the patience to let God work it out in HIS TIME, when we want it RIGHT NOW!
My son is healing from the 8 yrs of misery with this woman, but we are closer than ever and I am so proud of him.
Your daughter’s yelling at family, being cranky, etc is most likely from some form of depression and stress combined. Typical victim emotins and responses. I will pray for you and fo ryour family. Keep on reading and learning, the more you know the better prepared you are for helping her when the time comes she is ready to receive it. (((hugs))))
As a new visitor to this site, I am dismayed that it is so difficult for people to identify and respond to the damage sociopaths inflict.
It is more and more apparent to me, a victim of a female sociopath for more than seven years, that our entire culture has rewarded the personality characteristics of sociopathy. From the small town neighborhood to the national level, they are among us and we seem ill prepared to see them in time to stop them.
It is my heartfelt belief that Sarah Palin is a sociopath (perhaps Wooten is one too) and that, even vicitims, continue to deny the traits staring us in the face. When someone looks respectable, when someone has a kind of charisma, when someone exhibits fearlessness and conviction, we still admire them. But eventually, we will ask, “Who would do such a thing,” and, “But, she said all of the things we wanted to hear.”
The thrill of knowing a sociopath is like a very strong drug or fast moving virus. Until the drug wears off or the virus runs its course, there is little one can do. Perhaps this is our lesson: Survive, and we become inoculated against future sociopathic relationships.
Dear Suzie,
Welcome to lovefraud–it at least is a safe place for us to talk with people who DO understand.
I don’t know enough about Sarah Palin to say one way or another, but I do (I am from Arkansas) Know enough about Bill and Hillary to say that I AM SURE that they are both “card carrying Psychopaths.”
Your “who would do such a thing?” is so RIGHT ON! Most people just “don’t get it.” That is, until they are victimized and then some still don’t know what hit them. Glad to have you here.
mysticmud: Yes, they are on a spiritually stunted level since childhood … I believe that’s when their egos first took off and stopped or never did the righteous things in life. We took righteous paths in life, learned God’s virtues (wisdom) and added these virtues (tools) to our tool belt of life. “They” our EXs lived life from their egos … not learning wisdom, not living life the way God wants us to live. Hence, never learning wisdom, never gaining additional tools to put in their tool belt of life. We have tools to use going through our lives … they have none. Hence, they have quick sand foundations and we have firm foundations of who we are.
Also, read what I posted to James and Iwonder today. I’m getting to the point of reading what I learn from the Bible and what scientists and health professionals are thinking is a missing gene, could be that enzymes and chemicals are not going off in their minds living their lives through their egos … only those chemicals and enzymes kick off if you live a righteous life the way God wants us to live. That God built into all of us what is needed for us to live the way he wants us to live … if we don’t, the chemicals and enzymes that should be kicked off go dormant.
I know what I’m writing is confusing … you need to go through the last several months of blogging to understand fully where I’m going with this thought process.
Peace. You do understand what he’s all about … which is a good thing that you are not in denial … you can heal quicker.
suzie: We did comment on Palin. You need to read the post up after you post. They are the previous posts from weeks/months/years on this blog.
I personally don’t buy into Palin’s nonsense. She proved to me that being a Governor and using her office for personal needs is what’s she’s all about. Instead of her presenting herself as the woman of the year, she should focus on passing legislation in her own state about the abuse of anti-socials and what they are all about and the damage they create in victims lives.
But, you need to acquire wisdom in your life to make such decisions.
The only thing I’m grateful is after this office is filled, we don’t have to hear from any of them for another 4 years. Unless, of course, they make the news with their mallarky acting out.
Peace.
Oxy and Suzie: Did either of you catch Letterman’s show last night?
Comedian Chris Rock’s act was hysterical ” speaking out about Palin’s actions killing moose and how Michael Vick must be thinking to himself as he sits in his prison cell why is he here, and she (Palin) is out free playing the role of governor?
Rock also goes deeper in his routine stating if anyone noticed how Bill Clinton refused to say Obama’s name, weaving his magic spin on everything but how Obama won and Hillary didn’t. Chris screaming … Bill, Bill, just say his name. (LOL)
Peace.
Is anyone noticing the same MO is going on with the bail out? Righteous people are being forced by the highest offices in this country to take it on the chin what the unrighteous did. It’s the same thing we are blogging about what our EXs did to us … leaving the damage behind in our lives! Now we are looking at a slew of them all working in the same banking industry … yeah, we thought it was only the car salesmen jobs, now we know they they left selling cars to the novices.
When is this insanity going to end? Throw them in prison for a few years to read the word of God and let’s call it a day! They’ll have a roof over their heads, jumpsuits to wear, nice jewelry of ankle and wrist bracelets … hey, and 3 square meals a day. What more could they ask for when they put one foot in front of the other to make it behind bars!
Peace, I’m praying to God on this issue.
wini:
except that vick deserves to be in prison. i used to be media relations director for an international animal protection organization; those who abuse animals are psychopathic … and pretty much guaranteed to be abusive to women/men/children as well.
I don’t have any problem with Palin firing the head of the state troopers for NOT firing her BIL, the guy was NOT a good trooper, and it is not a matter of if he was her BIL or not. Should he be allowed to drink and drive a cop car just because the Gov is his former SIL and therefore he can’t be fired? Come on, that is “reverse descrimination” at it’s worst. If I was gov and the head of the state troopers wouldn’t fire someone like that, someone who put a tazer to an 11 yr old for goodness sakes (I am assuming that all this is true).
About anything else she has done, I don’t know.
But, personally I don’t trust ANY politician. I think the majority if not all of them are CROOKS—period. Anyone who WOULD run for president has to be pretty arrogant! Obama scares the heck out of me, and so does McCain—in fact, our whole situation in the US right now scares me. But there’s not a great deal I can do about it personally, except vote my conscience and try to “pick the lesser of the two evils,” and PRAY FOR MY COUNTRY AND THE WORLD.