Five and a half years ago I started a quest to understand sociopathy/psychopathy and antisocial behavior. Long before that, in 1981, I attended a lecture by Dr. Sarnoff Medick at USC. During that lecture, he presented the results of his research. His research on adopted children indicates that antisocial behavior has a strong measurable genetic basis. His studies did not single out anyone “diagnosed” a sociopath/psychopath they only examined antisocial behavior in parents and their biologic and adopted offspring.
Remembering these studies, I read them again and found many others demonstrating the genetic basis for antisocial behavior and sociopathy/psychopathy. Also at the beginning of my quest, I read Without Conscience by Dr. Robert Hare. (If you have not read it, I strongly recommend you do so.) That book teaches us about a category of people “psychopaths” who are without conscience and are antisocial. According to Without Conscience, psychopathy can only be diagnosed by professionals who using the PCL-R find a person scores over a certain cut-off. That book also makes reference to the genetic basis for “psychopathy.”
Questions about antisocial behavior, sociopaths and psychopaths
Reading all this material, I immediately questioned if psychopaths are a separate category of antisocial people. Many experts say “psychopaths” represent 1% of the general population and 25% of the prison population. I also wondered what the other 75% of the prison population would be considered. To my dismay I found several studies showing that many maximum security, very antisocial and violent criminals would not be considered “psychopaths” according to the PCL-R.
Three things about the research reports troubled me then, and also now. First of all what good is it to tell people there are a category of dangerous “psychopaths” out there and then in the next sentence to say that only trained professionals can tell who “they” are? Second of all, there are many very antisocial and violent individuals who “professionals” say are not “psychopaths.” In fact, studies of pedophiles indicate they are less likely to be “psychopaths” than other sexual offenders. What? Excuse me? Thirdly, while saying psychopathy is genetic, scientists imply that it is 100% genetic and that is simply not true. No study has found the disorder is 100% genetic.
These 3 issues lead me to focus on antisocial behavior again as opposed to a specific category of people, psychopaths or sociopaths. If we focus on antisocial behavior we can clearly identify people who commit a large number of antisocial acts. For these people harming others has become a way of life and is not something they do only occasionally. It does not take a professional to identify antisocial behavior or harm.
The focus should be first on antisocial behavior, then the personality traits of those who show a lot of it
Many experts agree with the idea that our focus should be on antisocial behavior first, then we should try to understand what characteristics very antisocial people have in common. In their book The Psychology of Criminal Conduct, Drs. Andrews and Bonta state, “A general Antisocial Personality Pattern may be more relevant than psychopathological models of antisocial personality. If we limit ourselves to the personality traits and behavioral patterns of highly antisocial persons, then we have little need for concepts such as APD (sociopathy) and Psychopathy.”
Dr. Hare also states in a recent paper, “In any case, the use of a threshold or cut score for “diagnosing” psychopathy is problematical, given recent taxometric evidence that the PCL-R (Guay, Ruscio, Knight, & Hare, 2007) and its derivatives (Edens, Marcus, Lilienfeld, & Poythress, 2006; Walters et al., 2007) measure a dimensional construct. Cut scores are useful for communication among researchers, but of necessity are somewhat arbitrary when used for diagnostic purposes. The real issue is not how difficult it may be to reach a given “threshold” but how variations in the psychopathy dimensions relate to variables of interest, including normal range personality processes (Hare & Neumann, 2008; Lynam & Widiger, 2007).
In other words, in his scientific writings, Dr. Hare says that the best use of the PCL-R is to describe the personality traits of people we have otherwise categorized. Using it to “diagnose” psychopathy is “problematical.”
Where do we go from here and is sociopathy/psychopathy still a relevant concept?
Sociopathy (antisocial behavior) and psychopathy, or the cluster of personality traits that those with antisocial behavior have, are still very important to understand. First most people do not habitually engage in harmful antisocial behavior. It is important for us to understand all the factors, from personality to social circumstance that contribute to habitual antisocial behavior, or sociopathy.
Psychopathy represents a cluster of personality traits that are commonly found in very antisocial people (sociopaths). There is no cut-off score for determining “a psychopath.” It is more correct to say that high scores on measures of psychopathy indicate the presence of psychopathic personality traits to an extreme degree.
Let’s go ahead and call a spade a spade and categorize sociopaths
Is there any way to categorize sociopaths? Yes I say there is. There are distinct categories that people who are very psychopathic fall into, obvious examples include: con artists, rapists, child molesters and career criminals. Less obvious examples include: pathologic liars, unscrupulous sales people, and the perpetrators of domestic violence.
Your basic bad relationship choice
I also want to point out that most individuals who are your basic “bad relationship choice” are more psychopathic than the average person. So it is OK to call them psychopaths for the sake of convenience. The category, “bad relationship choice” includes people who repeatedly cheat on their mates, lie to them, and manipulate them. Hear me if your lover cheats on you, lies to you all the time, tries to destroy your reputation, takes your money, manipulates you and/or tries to control you, he or she is very psychopathic. That is not normal behavior. People who love one another are supposed to take special care of each other. Get away from that psychopath now before you are destroyed!
The good news
Did you make a “bad relationship choice”? Do you know a pathological liar? If you answer yes to these questions you do not need me or any specially trained expert to tell you the person you know is very psychopathic- a psychopath and a sociopath. If you want to review the set of personality traits that pathological liars, “bad relationship choices,” con artists, rapists, pedophiles, and career criminals have in common, see What is a sociopath? and Dr. Robert Hare’s symptoms of psychopaths. Use the list of personality traits to decide for yourself just how psychopathic that person you know is.
Iwonder Your x sounds like a cluster B “Borderline Personality Disorder” + Sociopath + physcopath – look it up – google it and see what you think?
Ox and Henry: Maybe a combination. He’s a scarey person. Not violent though and flies just under the radar with the law. I do not trust him. How can anyone with a conscience do the things he does? Right now I’m worried he may want $ to sign over the deed to my condo back in my name….or there may be a plot to divorce his current wife, marry the OW and then he and the OW would legally own 1/2. I hate to think that way about anyone but look what I’m dealing with.
I just got an email from the wife. She is in NJ up from FL this month to get the divorce straightened out. I emailed her and asked if she could hold-off until I get the deed signed. This way, he can’t marry the OW until I get the property back.
I hope she works with me on this. I told her something doesnt feel right. Especially since I found out he was with the OW all along…and that he asked me to put his name on the deed. She may be in on it or not but I can’t take that chance with this guy. Do you blame me?
Dear Iwonder,
I hate to bust your bubble in any way, but since you VOLUNTARILY put his name on the deed, he may not be liable for “fraud”—it may be a he said/she said thing, though I know and believe he DEFRAUDED you, it may be difficult to prove. Many times the cops don’t look at this as “criminal” (like he held a gun to your head to rob you) but as a “civil” thing, where YOU have to hire an attorney and sue him in court.
The Trojan horse psychopath who was my elderly mother’s live in care giver, asked me for a “loan” to buy a vehicle, I said “no” because you can’t pay it back. He got mom to loan him the money and “signed a note” for the money, BUT when the vehicle was registered there was no lien (mortgage) on the title so the “note” he signed was essentially worthless anyway.
After he and my DIL (who were having an affair) got my mom to rescend my power of attorney and giv eit to my DIL she got into the safe deposit box and tore up the note anyway.
After they were arrested for trying to kill her huband C my son, and then she got out, she took the title of the truck to my mom’s attorney and a POA that the TH-P had given to her to try to get the truck since “there was nothing owed on it”—
We slapped a mechanic’s lien for STORAGE on it though and blocked that. Eventually mom got the title legally. You say you have a condo—I assume there are monthly payments for “fees” as well as I assume you are making mortgage payments.
In the event he won’t sign it over you might slap him with a judgement for unpaid fees—since I assume he has never paid any of the yearly or monthly fees, then you can put a lien on his “half” and see if you can’t repo it. But talk to an attorney, usually you can get a first visit essentially free and maybe that would help you know where you stand.
Good luck! (((hugs)))
Ox: Oh boy. You are a kill joy this evening. Even though I signed over voluntarily, it was under the condition that we were going to get married. He did not abide by the contract. I have papers he filled out for 2 attorney visits to file the annulment from the wife…he never went through with it. The last time, we went to the county courthouse and filed ourselves. He never followed up again and that case was dismissed for lack of his prosecution. That should be evidence that he never planned to divorce and marry me…especially because he was having relations with the OW all along. I hope that’s enough.
Maybe he has found God and will just sign.
OK Ox: It’s 3:30am and I couldn’t sleep about this deed stuff. I called the sociopath and left a message hysterically crying telling him I can’t sleep over this and that he needs to do something because I am having a breakdown and that please don’t ask me for money….because I don’t have any. sob..sob. I know he’s a sociopath but somewhere deep down inside there, I know there’s a beating heart. He put me through such pain and misery he tells everyone when he hears me cry it makes him never want to hurt anyone again. I know it’s probably bullshit but I do believe this will get to him.
I got an email from his wife. She spoke with him over the weekend about her divorce and he mentioned to her that he will always be greatful to me for all I did for him and his kids.
Stay tuned…more to come.
Iwonder: Good luck in trying to fit logic into an illogical situation. Did you ever hear of the Great Wall of China? How many miles long it is … and they are still discovering more miles of the wall … the wall changes through the entire landscape of the country … well, the walls your EX has blocking his emotions makes the GWofC look like tinker toys. He has your deed because it is leverage? What kind of leverage, I couldn’t answer. Why they destroy everyone that was good to them in their lives … I couldn’t tell you that … my guess is that they are jealous of everyone in life and for some reason, they want us to pay … for whatever pain they endured in their childhood, real or imagined. Imagined pain is their egos taking off, not listening to a reprimand or something from a parental figure. Who knows why they wall themselves off and mimic everything in life? Some day, hopefully in our life time … we will know the answers. Hey, it just may be their egos getting carried away with them … looking down at others like we are all their play things … puppets for their amusement. Like I said, who knows. I know they don’t live righteously … never doing what was right in life, therefore, never learning lessons of compassion, love, honesty, decency, and all the other virtues learned walking the righteous paths in life. What they did is use and abuse and manipulate everyone, learning only evil from their mindsets viewing the world the way they do. We all have choices in this world … we can walk a righteous path in life … do the work, learn the lesson, gain wisdom or not. It’s everyone’s choice. We are what our minds think. Period. Conditioned from childhood. If you are henpecked and afraid, it takes years or maybe never the person breaks out of their henpecked conditioning. If you were allowed to grow and spread your wings … then you made those choices in your life to choose what you wanted and not wanted incorporated in your life. Because your EX, like the rest of our EXs played up the good guy, I love you, you and me babe against the world, I will always be there for you, yadda, yadda, yadda … we believed them, we loved them … to find out to our horror it was all a shame to get from us what they want … love, a roof over their heads, material things, money, a stepping stone for a place to rest until they moved down the road … who knows. And frankly right now, I don’t care what they are all about … I just know they need to be in prison for playing all of society. Go to prison to slow down, read the Bible, learn wisdom of how to be in harmony with the rest of society … and stop your immature nonsense once and for all. That’s it in a nutshell. Period, over and out. Anything else, you want to play and cry and whatever else to think you can get through to him … stop banging your head against the wall and playing into his viciousness. Believe me, they are mean, self absorbed, believe their own big egos … look down on the rest of us in society that we are clueless and idiots … they believe we should all smarten up and live their way, with no rules or regulations … and we (who are mature and responsible citizens) know that their way of living is stunted. Spiritually stunted. It is wrong, wrong, wrong to take and play society. It is not harmony with others … it is chaos and evil at it’s height and Glory. Did you ever read or see the movie Shindler’s list? The pianist? Nazi Germany during WWII … annihilating the Jewish people of the world? Yes, Hitler in his delusional, irrational, narcissistic mindset to annihilat an entire race of people because he had some bug up his butt and used the Jewish people to full fill his warp sense of reality being he was insecure, jealous, self centered starving 2nd rate artist … who couldn’t make it in the Art world, his narcissistic need for approval… turned him to another direction, that of the political realm … rose through the ranks and played the world’s people for everything he could. When his illusion shattered, in the end, he shot his newly wed wife and himself (so history says) or else, his elite closest to him shot both of them. Who knows, the victors write history the way they want it portrayed, but they are gone.
Finally, if you don’t think there are thousands and thousands of professionals, both law enforcement, the courts, legal and medical along with mental health professionals who make it their mission to figuring them out … open your eyes and see a bigger world than yourself … you aren’t the only one going through this. And yes, I feel your pain and I know what it is like to have them in your space.
For now, focus on healing yourself. Do what you have to do (within the law) of getting him into court or getting him to sign over the deed. After that NO CONTACT with him. For if you do, he will con and say whatever to play your life all over again for his own amusement. Period. If you feel you should be played as some toy thing, feel free. My life is worth more than some idiot to continue to play me. And play us is all what they did.
Period.
Iwonder.. I wouldn’t beg.. blve me they have NO pity, and the nice stuff he’s saying about you is only to make himself look like less of an arse. My guess is he promised his current lover that he would get some money for the deed or something, and now he doesn’t want to give in for fear of her dumping him.
If I were you, knowing what I know now… I’d stand up to him VERY strongly. The only way to confront a bully is to show no fear and stand up for your rights. He romanced you with the sole purpose of defrauding you, this is a federal offense. If he used the internet to do it, this is wire fraud, another federal offense. Do not be afraid to let this jerk know that you are not going to take this lying down. Hey jerkwad.. this is a federal offense, do you feel like signing that deed now, or shall I call my lawyer? Stand up to him strongly, you NEED your home.
Wini not everyone has a great life outside of the s/p. I have nothing but my kids, never had love, never had a home of my own, I lost a lot when I lost him. I have no great future or life waiting for me. I will probably be broke and alone forever. It’s been HARD getting over him. Don’t minimize it, you know you suffered as well when you were going through it.
Besides, if you threaten to have him arrested for fraud, it will give him an “out” with the OW. He can just say, “Look, I have to sign over this deed, because this horrible b…. is going to ruin my life if I don’t.”
Dear Iwonder,
Not trying to be a “kill joy”—The truth will set you free, but first it will piss you off.
OK, look at it from the devil’s advocate point of view– “You were going with this MARRIED MAN And you signed over half your condo because he SAID he was going to divorce his wife and marry you?” And you trusted him, WHY?
KAT IS RIGHT—do NOT BEG—they love that!
Whatever you do you must STAY IN CONTROL—YOU CAN DO IT!!!!
Talk to the police, if that doesn’t work, talk to a lawyer. BUT DO NOT GIVE UP! It might be possible that his soon-to-be-X-wife and you could “gang up on him” for both your benefits.
I am playing “devil’s advocate” there
Dear Kat,
Quote: “I have nothing but my kids,
never had a home of my own, I have no great future or life waiting for me. I will probably be broke and alone forever.”
BOINK! That’s the sound of my BIG iron skillet hitting you squarely on the top of the head!!! Now I’m gonna ((((((hug))))) you.
Now look here, GF, you need an “attitude adjustment” as I used to tell my kids.
Number 1, “all I have is my kids”—and that is supposed to make me pity you HOW? Sugar, that’s all you NEED.
Number 2, “there’s no great future ahead”
THE FUTURE IS WHAT YOU MAKE IT!!! You have been in school, and you can finish school and have anything you are willing to WORK FOR.
QUOTE: “I lost a lot when I lost him” BAULDERDASH! Idon’t care if you lived with him in the Trump Towers, you didn’t lose SQUAT when you lost him except your illusions! He abused you, THAT’S WHAT YOU LOST, GF! Nothing else.
My X-FIL (he was my husband’s guardian) left me with an old pick up truck, $300, a cat and two kids, not ANYTHING else, and I put myself through school, and I made it, YOU CAN TOO! It “ain’t easy” but you can do it.
Kat, a “wonderful” future doesn’t depend on OWNING anything or HAVING ANYONE. A “wonderful future” comes from INSIDE. It comes from valuing YOURSELF! No matter how “rich” someone is, believe me, you can lose it all in a heart beat, the ONLY thing in this life that is constant is “change.” Businesses fail, stocks go down, health fails, nothing on this earth is “for sure” and we better learn to make what is INSIDE US our “wealth” cause money sure as hell doesn’t “buy” a “great future” all it pays for is stuff.
I hit Henry hard with the skillet the other day cause he was so “needy” (hungry for) a relationship he was back on the Internet looking for one. When you are “hungry” for food, you will eat darn near ANYTHING, but when you are not soo “hungry” you will be more picky about what you eat.
BEing “Hungry” for a relationship makes you a lot less picky than you would be if you were not so “hungry” and you will “settle for less” and be back in the same boat. I sure found THAT OUT THE HARD WAY. After my huband died I was so “hungry” that I grabbed at the first P that came along like a drowning man grabbing at a straw. All I got for my trouble was more heart break.
You keep beating yourself up for breaking up with a “nice guy” and going back to the P and giving him another chance. If you had really loved Mr. Nice Guy, you wouldn’t have done that. So just having “Mr. Nice Guy” if you really weren’t in love with him wouldn’t have been all that great either.
Kat, I definitely KNOW that my chances of finding another “soul mate” are SLIM to NONE, but now I am also getting real about the fact that my life is not going to come to an end if I never do find another relationship, and I am NOT going to wither away either. I don’t NEED a relationship to be happy. I can be complete and happy without one. So can you!
(((hugs)))))