Five and a half years ago I started a quest to understand sociopathy/psychopathy and antisocial behavior. Long before that, in 1981, I attended a lecture by Dr. Sarnoff Medick at USC. During that lecture, he presented the results of his research. His research on adopted children indicates that antisocial behavior has a strong measurable genetic basis. His studies did not single out anyone “diagnosed” a sociopath/psychopath they only examined antisocial behavior in parents and their biologic and adopted offspring.
Remembering these studies, I read them again and found many others demonstrating the genetic basis for antisocial behavior and sociopathy/psychopathy. Also at the beginning of my quest, I read Without Conscience by Dr. Robert Hare. (If you have not read it, I strongly recommend you do so.) That book teaches us about a category of people “psychopaths” who are without conscience and are antisocial. According to Without Conscience, psychopathy can only be diagnosed by professionals who using the PCL-R find a person scores over a certain cut-off. That book also makes reference to the genetic basis for “psychopathy.”
Questions about antisocial behavior, sociopaths and psychopaths
Reading all this material, I immediately questioned if psychopaths are a separate category of antisocial people. Many experts say “psychopaths” represent 1% of the general population and 25% of the prison population. I also wondered what the other 75% of the prison population would be considered. To my dismay I found several studies showing that many maximum security, very antisocial and violent criminals would not be considered “psychopaths” according to the PCL-R.
Three things about the research reports troubled me then, and also now. First of all what good is it to tell people there are a category of dangerous “psychopaths” out there and then in the next sentence to say that only trained professionals can tell who “they” are? Second of all, there are many very antisocial and violent individuals who “professionals” say are not “psychopaths.” In fact, studies of pedophiles indicate they are less likely to be “psychopaths” than other sexual offenders. What? Excuse me? Thirdly, while saying psychopathy is genetic, scientists imply that it is 100% genetic and that is simply not true. No study has found the disorder is 100% genetic.
These 3 issues lead me to focus on antisocial behavior again as opposed to a specific category of people, psychopaths or sociopaths. If we focus on antisocial behavior we can clearly identify people who commit a large number of antisocial acts. For these people harming others has become a way of life and is not something they do only occasionally. It does not take a professional to identify antisocial behavior or harm.
The focus should be first on antisocial behavior, then the personality traits of those who show a lot of it
Many experts agree with the idea that our focus should be on antisocial behavior first, then we should try to understand what characteristics very antisocial people have in common. In their book The Psychology of Criminal Conduct, Drs. Andrews and Bonta state, “A general Antisocial Personality Pattern may be more relevant than psychopathological models of antisocial personality. If we limit ourselves to the personality traits and behavioral patterns of highly antisocial persons, then we have little need for concepts such as APD (sociopathy) and Psychopathy.”
Dr. Hare also states in a recent paper, “In any case, the use of a threshold or cut score for “diagnosing” psychopathy is problematical, given recent taxometric evidence that the PCL-R (Guay, Ruscio, Knight, & Hare, 2007) and its derivatives (Edens, Marcus, Lilienfeld, & Poythress, 2006; Walters et al., 2007) measure a dimensional construct. Cut scores are useful for communication among researchers, but of necessity are somewhat arbitrary when used for diagnostic purposes. The real issue is not how difficult it may be to reach a given “threshold” but how variations in the psychopathy dimensions relate to variables of interest, including normal range personality processes (Hare & Neumann, 2008; Lynam & Widiger, 2007).
In other words, in his scientific writings, Dr. Hare says that the best use of the PCL-R is to describe the personality traits of people we have otherwise categorized. Using it to “diagnose” psychopathy is “problematical.”
Where do we go from here and is sociopathy/psychopathy still a relevant concept?
Sociopathy (antisocial behavior) and psychopathy, or the cluster of personality traits that those with antisocial behavior have, are still very important to understand. First most people do not habitually engage in harmful antisocial behavior. It is important for us to understand all the factors, from personality to social circumstance that contribute to habitual antisocial behavior, or sociopathy.
Psychopathy represents a cluster of personality traits that are commonly found in very antisocial people (sociopaths). There is no cut-off score for determining “a psychopath.” It is more correct to say that high scores on measures of psychopathy indicate the presence of psychopathic personality traits to an extreme degree.
Let’s go ahead and call a spade a spade and categorize sociopaths
Is there any way to categorize sociopaths? Yes I say there is. There are distinct categories that people who are very psychopathic fall into, obvious examples include: con artists, rapists, child molesters and career criminals. Less obvious examples include: pathologic liars, unscrupulous sales people, and the perpetrators of domestic violence.
Your basic bad relationship choice
I also want to point out that most individuals who are your basic “bad relationship choice” are more psychopathic than the average person. So it is OK to call them psychopaths for the sake of convenience. The category, “bad relationship choice” includes people who repeatedly cheat on their mates, lie to them, and manipulate them. Hear me if your lover cheats on you, lies to you all the time, tries to destroy your reputation, takes your money, manipulates you and/or tries to control you, he or she is very psychopathic. That is not normal behavior. People who love one another are supposed to take special care of each other. Get away from that psychopath now before you are destroyed!
The good news
Did you make a “bad relationship choice”? Do you know a pathological liar? If you answer yes to these questions you do not need me or any specially trained expert to tell you the person you know is very psychopathic- a psychopath and a sociopath. If you want to review the set of personality traits that pathological liars, “bad relationship choices,” con artists, rapists, pedophiles, and career criminals have in common, see What is a sociopath? and Dr. Robert Hare’s symptoms of psychopaths. Use the list of personality traits to decide for yourself just how psychopathic that person you know is.
Wini: Here’s a twist. July 06 the S sent his wife to Peurto Rico to his mothers for 3 mos. All that time, he started the relationship with me. He broke up with her over the phone & said he wanted divorce. 3 mos after that, he would call & tell her not to file that they were getting back together. Then he cut off communication with her. She moved to FL. Once and awhile he’d call to talk about the papers & told her where to send them. Each time, he diverted filing. For 2 years, he was supposed to file divorce & marry me. Never happened.
For the entire 2 yrs together, he had OW..so I kicked him out & now he’s with OW.
Here comes the twist. The wife & I communicate from time to time. I emailed her asking for help with the deed. Turns out she’s in NJ since Sept 3 hoping to talk to S about divorce papers. Nutty email. She wrote about how she knows the S better than any woman & he could be a great husband, father, etc. She said its up to God as to what path & whom he is supposed to be with. OMG! She still thinks they’ll get back together? She has no clue what she’s talking about. Also wrote that God had this life plan for me. That it was a sad and painful experience but we learn from our lessons and don’t make the same mistakes again.I wanna barf. He spit in her face & treated her like dirt too & she still thinks he’s great?? She wound up in the hospital sick over what he did.
Anyway, I asked her if she wouldn’t mind holding off with any divorce papers until I get my deed signed back over. Otherwise, the divorce goes through, he marries OW and OW gets a piece of my property. She’s looney but nice & doesn’t want to file anyway so that is an angle I’m playing.
Also got a text from S today telling me “relax. i’ll take care of it soon.” (yeah, just like the divorce.)
He is speaking with the wife now so I asked wife if she could mention my deed papers and tell him he needs to do this. She said she will mention it but he will tell her it’s not her business. She wrote she hopes the S and I can come to an agreement about the deed. I wrote “agreement?” I hope he’s not going to ask for $…because have have nothing. Nada. Zip.
This wife is a nutter too. When she married the S she was and still is married to someone else. She married a guy in another county for money to get him legal. Now she’s a biggamist?
I want out of this madhouse!! It’s a madhouse I tell you, a madhouse!”
Kat: I wish I had kids. I may not be able to have any.
I am going to stick to my story.. my kids are growing up and barely need me. I have raised them to be extremely independent.. problem is.. they are.. lol.. I will need something to fill that void.
I am agoraphobic, chronically depressed and basically terrified person.. so now ya knows.. I’ve graduated from my little college, taken every course they have, but I still can’t handle going out into the workforce. My future is by no means assured, because no matter what my circumstances, I do not seem to have what it takes to “make it” out there.
My life is a series of sometimes impossible and contradictory demands made by the agencies I depend on for survival for me and the kids. Believe me, I know they are my priceless treasures.. but I don’t own em, and they are leaving me one by one as they should. You can bonk me all day Ox, and it made me smile, and I don’t want anyone’s pity, but getting better… that just might not happen for me.
What I lost when I lost my bf, I lost the only love I ever felt, the only trust I ever extended.. I know in my heart I will never have the guts to do that again. I feel he robbed me of what may have been my only chance. I wish I had never heard his name, then maybe hope would still be alive for me. I don’t necessarily need a man, but I need a partner, someone to cushion life’s terrors for me, to have my back. This is a true need for me, not just a wish.
Also I do not care about money, the guy I broke up with BECAUSE I didn’t feel I could truly love him the way I was, was a millionaire and wanted just to take care of me and the kids. I lost a lot for my integrity. Money to me isn’t for one thing and one thing only.. security. Security is the one thing I absolutely cannot live without. I am willing to work.. hard too, but I can’t take the insecurity of the outside world. It’s such a deep rooted thing that no amount of exposure to it seems to do any good. I never hide from the world or from my responsibilities, but my feelings of terror and dread never go away.
Not everyone has whatever it is inside them that makes them succeed out there. I gave up my security for love, I’ll never do that again.. now I’m just another woman willing to compromise to put a roof over my children’s heads. I lost more than my illusions, I lost faith in my values.
Dear starlight and kat_o_nine_tales: You have yourself living and exploring life the way you want to live it … that will keep you more than busy.
Remember the first lie we read as children … kiss enough frogs and you will find your prince?
The truth to that story is: We are our own prince and the frogs of this world … well it seems, they read the book too. Come to think of it, when the frogs read the book was at the tender age of hating girls (yuk – girls – yuk) … mmmmmmmhhhh, I wonder if they ever outgrew that thought? Kept that thought in their subconscious all these years? Retaining that memory as we retained ours … never shall the two memories merge and meet in the middle.
P.S. Media spinning its wheels at it’s best to make $$$… manipulating young girls to to keep our hearts open and if we are willing to kiss enough frogs our prince … that knight in shinning armor will appear somewhere from the world … and frogs they are (ribbet, ribbet) … those fairy tales were instilled in young minds. It’s not your fault, but now the piece of apple is dislodged from your throats …. SWs’ get to awaken now …
Peace.
Oh, and wait until you read between the lines of your other favorite tales … that should keep everyone busy. You can share your new insights on line with the rest of the bloggers.
I realize that I have been living my life according to some fairtytale script. And I am truly trying to shift my paradigm to what is possible. It is not easy. Everyday I realize another aspect in my life that screams of fantasy and storybook dreams. I don’t even know when I bought into that crap!
I have always prided myself on being an out of the box thinker, challenging the status quo. But I’m right there, in the middle of a huge box with the lid nailed shut. I guess it is all the unconscious cues that I have gotten from “between the lines” of those unrealistic tales. But now, I know that I am in one, and because of that I feel that I can taste freedom. Thanks Wini (((hugs)))
starlight: Now I understand why many many people just walk away and laugh when they hear a line coming their way.
Peace. Don’t beat yourself up, heal, move on and be creative and enjoy your life again …. after all, that is the best revenge against any of them. As for them “thump on the heads to all of you, get on your knees and pray to God for forgiveness”!!!
Kat, this part is for you.
You may not think you have anything or anyone, but it’s not true. You are not alone and your life is far from over! You have a community of people here who care about you and who can relate to what you are going through. You also have family (kids). It may not seem like much, but sometimes when you’re very down, it’s the little things that will pull you out. I am older than you. I will be 48 in a few weeks. I have no kids and no family to speak of. I had a small savings account but just spent most of it on a new furnace today for a small condo that I will probably be upside down on for the rest of my life, seriously. Sometimes life looks pretty bleak to me, too. But then I remember all the things I have to be grateful for, including the people here who have helped me so much. I just spent $3300 on a new furnace today, which pretty much wiped out my savings. But I feel incredibly grateful that I at least had the money saved to buy it. I know you, too, have more than you realize. I’m sending a big hug your way and hope it helps.
For Iwonder: No matter how much it costs you, no price is too great to rid your life of abusers, users, liars, and cheats. One of these days the nightmare will be over for you. Maybe when you lie down to sleep you could imagine what your life will be like without the stress of the P. With the goal in mind, maybe you can get some messages in your dreams/subconscious or from a higher power on the best way to proceed with the house situation. There has got to be a way out of this that doesn’t completely drain your energy. I’m sorry I don’t know the whole story. What would happen if you gave him his half and then sued him later in civil court, or something like that? Regarding his wife being in denial…..I am amazed at how many people in general are walking around in denial. We are the ones willing to face reality. It’s tough and it hurts. But you know what? At least it’s real.
StarG
Star gazer and Kat: Next New Years Eve and Valentines day, we should all party together … all LF friends getting together, to laugh and chat and have a great time.
Yup, yup, yup … we’ll all take these lemons thrown into our space and make lemonade. Hot lemonade toddies … yum, yum.
Peace.
Well said StarG, well said. I’d rather face the truth, no matter what that truth be, than to live a lie any day.
I’m shaking my head, just as I did when I went through my suit with my bosses … imagining what they ALL could have done with all that energy, time and effort if it was focused on something positive instead of always, the negative?
Peace to all your hearts and souls as we heal from the heels.