Five and a half years ago I started a quest to understand sociopathy/psychopathy and antisocial behavior. Long before that, in 1981, I attended a lecture by Dr. Sarnoff Medick at USC. During that lecture, he presented the results of his research. His research on adopted children indicates that antisocial behavior has a strong measurable genetic basis. His studies did not single out anyone “diagnosed” a sociopath/psychopath they only examined antisocial behavior in parents and their biologic and adopted offspring.
Remembering these studies, I read them again and found many others demonstrating the genetic basis for antisocial behavior and sociopathy/psychopathy. Also at the beginning of my quest, I read Without Conscience by Dr. Robert Hare. (If you have not read it, I strongly recommend you do so.) That book teaches us about a category of people “psychopaths” who are without conscience and are antisocial. According to Without Conscience, psychopathy can only be diagnosed by professionals who using the PCL-R find a person scores over a certain cut-off. That book also makes reference to the genetic basis for “psychopathy.”
Questions about antisocial behavior, sociopaths and psychopaths
Reading all this material, I immediately questioned if psychopaths are a separate category of antisocial people. Many experts say “psychopaths” represent 1% of the general population and 25% of the prison population. I also wondered what the other 75% of the prison population would be considered. To my dismay I found several studies showing that many maximum security, very antisocial and violent criminals would not be considered “psychopaths” according to the PCL-R.
Three things about the research reports troubled me then, and also now. First of all what good is it to tell people there are a category of dangerous “psychopaths” out there and then in the next sentence to say that only trained professionals can tell who “they” are? Second of all, there are many very antisocial and violent individuals who “professionals” say are not “psychopaths.” In fact, studies of pedophiles indicate they are less likely to be “psychopaths” than other sexual offenders. What? Excuse me? Thirdly, while saying psychopathy is genetic, scientists imply that it is 100% genetic and that is simply not true. No study has found the disorder is 100% genetic.
These 3 issues lead me to focus on antisocial behavior again as opposed to a specific category of people, psychopaths or sociopaths. If we focus on antisocial behavior we can clearly identify people who commit a large number of antisocial acts. For these people harming others has become a way of life and is not something they do only occasionally. It does not take a professional to identify antisocial behavior or harm.
The focus should be first on antisocial behavior, then the personality traits of those who show a lot of it
Many experts agree with the idea that our focus should be on antisocial behavior first, then we should try to understand what characteristics very antisocial people have in common. In their book The Psychology of Criminal Conduct, Drs. Andrews and Bonta state, “A general Antisocial Personality Pattern may be more relevant than psychopathological models of antisocial personality. If we limit ourselves to the personality traits and behavioral patterns of highly antisocial persons, then we have little need for concepts such as APD (sociopathy) and Psychopathy.”
Dr. Hare also states in a recent paper, “In any case, the use of a threshold or cut score for “diagnosing” psychopathy is problematical, given recent taxometric evidence that the PCL-R (Guay, Ruscio, Knight, & Hare, 2007) and its derivatives (Edens, Marcus, Lilienfeld, & Poythress, 2006; Walters et al., 2007) measure a dimensional construct. Cut scores are useful for communication among researchers, but of necessity are somewhat arbitrary when used for diagnostic purposes. The real issue is not how difficult it may be to reach a given “threshold” but how variations in the psychopathy dimensions relate to variables of interest, including normal range personality processes (Hare & Neumann, 2008; Lynam & Widiger, 2007).
In other words, in his scientific writings, Dr. Hare says that the best use of the PCL-R is to describe the personality traits of people we have otherwise categorized. Using it to “diagnose” psychopathy is “problematical.”
Where do we go from here and is sociopathy/psychopathy still a relevant concept?
Sociopathy (antisocial behavior) and psychopathy, or the cluster of personality traits that those with antisocial behavior have, are still very important to understand. First most people do not habitually engage in harmful antisocial behavior. It is important for us to understand all the factors, from personality to social circumstance that contribute to habitual antisocial behavior, or sociopathy.
Psychopathy represents a cluster of personality traits that are commonly found in very antisocial people (sociopaths). There is no cut-off score for determining “a psychopath.” It is more correct to say that high scores on measures of psychopathy indicate the presence of psychopathic personality traits to an extreme degree.
Let’s go ahead and call a spade a spade and categorize sociopaths
Is there any way to categorize sociopaths? Yes I say there is. There are distinct categories that people who are very psychopathic fall into, obvious examples include: con artists, rapists, child molesters and career criminals. Less obvious examples include: pathologic liars, unscrupulous sales people, and the perpetrators of domestic violence.
Your basic bad relationship choice
I also want to point out that most individuals who are your basic “bad relationship choice” are more psychopathic than the average person. So it is OK to call them psychopaths for the sake of convenience. The category, “bad relationship choice” includes people who repeatedly cheat on their mates, lie to them, and manipulate them. Hear me if your lover cheats on you, lies to you all the time, tries to destroy your reputation, takes your money, manipulates you and/or tries to control you, he or she is very psychopathic. That is not normal behavior. People who love one another are supposed to take special care of each other. Get away from that psychopath now before you are destroyed!
The good news
Did you make a “bad relationship choice”? Do you know a pathological liar? If you answer yes to these questions you do not need me or any specially trained expert to tell you the person you know is very psychopathic- a psychopath and a sociopath. If you want to review the set of personality traits that pathological liars, “bad relationship choices,” con artists, rapists, pedophiles, and career criminals have in common, see What is a sociopath? and Dr. Robert Hare’s symptoms of psychopaths. Use the list of personality traits to decide for yourself just how psychopathic that person you know is.
kat: you’re welcome here anytime!
my ex-s/p/n is a very angry, very troubled soul, but since i’ve known him since he was a teenager i’ve also seen a very loving and happy-go-lucky side to him. that’s what made me always stay with him. i’ve experienced the best of him and it was amazing. of course, it could have just been his manipulations; i don’t know, and that’s the problem! he treated me like shit for the entire last year and a half, telling me how he ”didn’t even like” me, that he never wanted me as a lover, how he really didn’t want me to move back to the city (he begged me to move back for two years!).
that he was (and has always been) a pathological liar is a given. i just never thought he’d do it to me. his mom dying had a lot to do with his horrific behavior. he changed dramatically when she died. he told me his new gf looks like his mom when she was young. (no, i didn’t even go there with him … where would i even begin to speak on what’s wrong with that statement!?).
anywho, he became a nightmare. he would repeatedly tell me ”i don’t give a sh#t what you think/feel”. his rage at me became incomprehensible. i knew that he treated others like shit (esp. his wife) but i never expected him to turn it on me so dramatically. don’t get me wrong. it was always about HIM. 24/7. but i mostly enjoyed taking care of him. i have no children and he was such a shiny disco ball that it was worth it just to have that energy around. now, i have no clue — really, none — why he is angry at me. the only thing i can think of is that i threw him out of my life. i could only take so much abuse. i could only take so many lies. when he finally did stop having sex with me (two months before he admitted cheating and his new gf being pregnant), he would tell me that he wasn’t feeling well, or that he had injured his groin playing basketball. the lies flowed like cheap wine. no matter how much i loved him, i had reached my limit. so, he’s gone.
he’s still with his wife (who will never divorce him — a whole other sordid story) and now he’s having baby number four with female number three.
i always wanted to have a baby with him and strangely, he would always say ”i can’t afford another child’ or ‘i don’t want any more children.’ i’d like to think that he just didn’t want to put me through the agony of him not being there emotionallly for me or our kid.
i’m doing okay, but i’m very confused. did he really never love me? it’s mind-boggling.
anyway, i stayed home from work today. i just feel sick — mentally and psychically. it’s as though my spirit is still shell-shocked and trying to recover.
good days and bad.
towanda …
JEN: That’s a strange coincidence. Also, my X was very inconsiderate of my sleep. If I went to sleep before him, he’d be outside the bedroom door in the next room playing computer games. He would SLAM the mouse on the desk all during the game when he was frustrated. So, evertime I started to doze….SLAM! ..I’d jump a mile high.
The fan pointed right at the bed too.
LIG: Those outbursts spewing evil words purposely to hurt you is typical. Mine would do the same thing…then 2 seconds later act like nothing happened. He would try to explain, “i just can’t help it! I can’t control it! (things he says when he is angry.) He would say I really don’t mean what I say but I’m so mad that things just come out.
My x also stopped having sex with me 2 months before i found out about the OW. Pig.
Iwonder: ewwww … what’s with the two months thing? however, mine didn’t stop coming over to eat my dinners, or have some of my wine, or have a nap in my bed … and then he would take a shower and leave (ostensibly to drive the hour back to his wife and kids), but now i know he was going to his new gf. how disgusting is that? sure, eat my food, drink my wine, nap in my bed and ignore me, take a shower, leave a mess and then go boink your new pregnant gf.
mine holds vendettas and grudges forever — until he can get back at someone. he never would act like nothing happened after an argument. i tend to get it out and let it go. he lets it out and doesn’t let it go. it’s ”on” until he says it’s over. he never apologized for anything he said to me. once in a while he would say ”i just say stuff to piss you off” but the callousness and cruelty of his words indicate something far worse. i don’t know what, but it’s just not normal.
so, WHY do they spew evil to hurt us? esp. when we haven’t done anything to them. i just don’t get it.
i cant relate to you guys about the disrespect they had when you were in bed sleeping. i could only sleep when he was sleeping. if i had to work the next day the tv would be blaring so loud. we would get into fights bc i would ask nicely to turn the tv down and he would completley avoid what i said. he would come to bed and his text message would continue to go off. i would ask him to put it on vibrate. he did nothing for me to show he cared. it was all about him..it was like we had to adjust to there life and views and way of living. why do they all act like that? if he was so tired and had to go to sleep god forbid i put the tv on he would get pissed. they are so selffish. its disgusting.
Dear Kat,
My computer went down yesterday and I am only able to get back on now, after your response.
Hun, yes, your kids are growing up and will go out on their own, getting out “into the world” ISN’T AN IMPOSSIBILITY, phobias CAN be over come, but even if yours can’t be, you can still have a LIFE THAT IS SATISFYING. The apostle Paul advised Christians to be “content iin whatever state they were in”–even if they were SLAVES he advised them to be CONTENT if they couldn’t gain their freedom.
I think this is good GREAT advice. There are so many things in life that we have to ACCEPT because we can’t change it, but if we continually grieve over not having something ELSE, we are not ever satisfied with what we DO have.
Kat YOU ARE STRONGER THAN YOU MAY EVEN REALIZE!!!! I’ve been blogging with you quite some time now, and I HAVE SEEN (HEARD? READ?) YOUR STRENGTH!!! You are plenty smart woman, but at times you are “down on” yourself, you look at the “glass is half empty” part and I am telling you THE GLASS IS HALF FULL, and you can also ADJUST THE SIZE OF THE GLASS.
My late husband, the engineer, that was his favorite saying, “the glass isn’t half full, and it isn’t half empty, you have the WRONG SIZED glass.” He would get another glass and then he would have a FULL glass. LOL There were so many times I would be down and he would “adjust the size of the glass” for me!
What my point is Kat, is that you have SO MUCH HEART, you have your kids, you have BRAINS—START LOOKING AT THE POSITIVE THINGS YOU HAVE—not at what you DON’T have.
You don’t even have to “get out in the workforce” to be happy, Kat.
Personally, I would RATHER be out in the work force than were I am, even though I do have things I am enjoying here, but my BAD SHORT TERM MEMORY makes it UNSAFE for me to practice medicine any more. Kat I HAD TO RETIRE, I didn’t just do it because I wanted to. It broke my heart at first to retire, because I loved my job (even though it was stressful) but I realized that I had to be CONTENT not to work any more. And believe me, I miss the extra money I made. I’ve had to adjust my life style quite a bit downward, and now with prices going through the roof I can’t travel like I used to do to see my friends that live at a distance, etc.
But I look at it this way, God has provided EVERYTHING I NEED and a bunch of what I want, so I AM ‘WEALTHY”—not in cash, but in so many other ways.
I have two sons who are wonderful men and love me, and would do anything in the world for me. I have wonderful friends who truly care for me. For so long I FOCUSED on the fact that I did not have the P-son, and I focused on the fact that my “mommie doesn’t love me”—well, I GOT OVER THAT negative focus, so I am seeing the positive side now. I’m accepting the fact that there are somethings I CANNOT change about my self or my situation. I am 61, I’d rather be 41, but I can’t change my age downward any. I’ve got wrinkles from being in the sun too much, can’t do much about that except wear sun screen now. LOL What money I had saved, I “blew” last year hiring lawyers to try to “rescue” my mother, and to buy the RV, which now with the price of gas being what it is, I couldn’t sell for 10 cents on the dollar for what I paid for it—so when I need clothes I go to Goodwill, but Kat, I’m CONTENT. Hun, you have so much, so many blessings, so what I’m trying to say is COUNT THOSE BLESSINGS!!!!! ((((hug)))))
Sociopaths do not like to be exposed! From the DNA test that I had done on his underwear after 2 months of marriage to the GPS tracking device that I put in his truck….he lost his friggin mind over that stuff. I waited until we were in marriage counseling (after the counselor told me he was trying to set me up), and put it on on the table with my ex, in the counselor’s presence. He pointed the finger at me and told me I was f**** up and left the room. Lying and denying was his game. I spent the money on the above items because I wanted to know what I was dealing with and the truth was soon clear. Sociopaths however do not like you to do what they do…a double standard. The last 3 months of marriage, it was all about ME, and he did not like that. I quit cooking, told him to clean the house, make the bed, load dishes and he freaked out. He stopped taking me out after 2 months of marriage and I started going out with my friends. We were at the tail end when my high school reunion came up, and both nights I was out til 2-3a.m. Had the best time of my life and boy was he pissed. He did not like the “Princess” act at all. Needless to say, I paid for my good time. I am onto bigger & better things and VERY careful who I spend time and put my trust in. Women who are too nice or kind usually find the kind of man who takes advantage of their giving personalities. I think men respect me more for knowing what I want and for being a bitch. Those are the ones who come back for more.
cheryl. i hear that! i listened to my ex-s/p/n’s voicemail, listened to very intimate messages from his new gf (who he denied) and he freaked out. “I’ll have a vendetta against you forever!” that was his last line to me after i threw him out when he finally admitted to a long-term affair and a pregnant gf.
he hates me for finding out the truth. he hates me for exposing his lies lies lies. he hates me for knowing who he truly is … a sociopath.
i never did a thing to hurt him … ever. but he can turn an act like listening to a phone message and make it worse than the years of misery he put me through with his deception, endless lies, using, taking, stealing, and cheating.
incredible.
i don’t want to be a bitch. i don’t want to be like them. i have my soft spirit back, but i know all the signs now. i’m hoping i can remain who i am — loving, giving, peaceful, warm — and be smart enough not to be taken advantage of again.
hope springs eternal!
Hello again – I posted above about my own little one-person army of trying to tell if a psychopath is headed my way.
“Do you ever remember your dreams?” seemed like a shortcut to screening for psychopaths, if they have that neural disconnect in their white matter.
My test population is 3 people — but I know these people well (and was played by all of them, unfortunately) — I’m 1000% sure they fit the clinical definition of psychopath.
None of them ever remembered their dreams — in fact they said they never dreamed. Never ever. Not even as a child. (I think one was due to alcoholism/white matter burn out, though).
I know other people who also don’t remember dreams, but they are the most compassionate people in the world, so perhaps that’s something else — .
Henry – your x slept without expression? Huh. So do amphibians. No dreams?
Stargazer and Winni- said their x’s didn’t sleep much. I tend to think the amount of sleep is related more to biochemicals and circadian clock genes. OxDrover has a point about mania, or meds. That and the risky behavior. So I don’t think a shortcut question is “So, do you sleep soundly?” because that would have too many other reasons.
Anyway – just trying to find a quick and easy way to identify psychopaths upfront without having to get to know them to tell if they fit the checklist.
Great post and comments –
Swivelchair: Good test if you are normal to remember your dreams … set your alarm clock an hour or so earlier than usual. You wake yourself before the completion of a REM cycle … hence, remembering your dreams as you awake. Most people sleep through their REM cycles to completion, therefore, have no recollection of what they were dreaming.
PEACE.
Maybe that theory about all these wars through the years is correct.
The best, brightest and bravest go into battle first … front line, and are killed off throughout the years of wars, wars, wars.
All the wars throughout our history killed the best, brightest and bravest.
So look (LOL) who returned state side an reproduced?
Don’t write to tell me off, I’m just being sarcastic.