By | November 22, 2010 143 Comments

Researchers minimize the psychopathy problem

Here’s the headline for the cover story in the September/October issue of Scientific American Mind magazine:

Inside the mind of a psychopath

Neuroscientists are discovering that some of the most cold-blooded killers aren’t bad. They suffer from a brain abnormality that sets them adrift in an emotionless world.

The authors of the article are Kent A. Kiehl and Joshua W. Buckholtz. Dr. Kiehl is the researcher who examines the brains of psychopaths in prison using fMRI technology. Lovefraud wrote about him before in Psychopaths, crime and choice.

This latest article, Inside the mind of a psychopath, is an excellent overview of the personality disorder. It summarizes the characteristics of psychopaths, with chilling anecdotes to describe their behavior. It briefly explains the biology of the disorder—describing areas of the brain that are abnormal. It explains research that has shed light on different aspects of how psychopaths differ from the rest of us.

The article is well-written, thorough and understandable. In it, Kiehl and Buckholtz write specifically about the individuals who meet the definition of a psychopath used by researchers in the field: someone scoring at least 30 out of 40 on the Psychopathy Checklist Revised (PCL-R).

I can understand this limitation from a research perspective, but for society as a whole, it’s a problem.

Psychopathy Checklist Revised

The PCL-R was developed by Dr. Robert Hare, and the article includes a summary of how it works. The evaluation covers 20 behaviors and traits. A clinician assigns a score of 0, 1 or 2 for each item, based on how well the description matches the subject.

The scores are based on both an interview with the subject, and a review of the information in his or her file. This is critical, of course, because psychopaths can be extremely charming in an interview, and conveniently forget to talk about their malignant histories.

The PCL-R evaluates the following behaviors and traits:

Antisocial behavior

  • Need for stimulation and proneness to boredom
  • Parasitic lifestyle
  • Poor behavioral control
  • Sexual promiscuity
  • Lack of realistic long-term goals
  • Impulsivity
  • Irresponsibility
  • Early behavior problems
  • Juvenile delinquency
  • Parole of probation violations

Emotional/interpersonal traits

  • Glibness and superficial charm
  • Grandiose sense of self-worth
  • Pathological lying
  • Conning and manipulativeness
  • Lack of remorse or guilt
  • Shallow affect
  • Callousness and lack of empathy
  • Failure to accept responsibility for own actions

Other factors

  • Committing a wide variety of crimes
  • Having many short-term marital relationships

The maximum score on the PCL-R is 40, which means that the person was rated as 2”—a reasonably good match—”on every item. To be considered a true psychopath, an individual must have a score of 30.

Prevalence of psychopaths

The criteria used by researchers to diagnose psychopaths is stringent, so the total number of people who have this disorder comes out as far lower what we usually talk about here on Lovefraud.

Here’s what the article says about the prevalence of psychopaths in society:

• People with the disorder make up 0.5 to 1 percent of the general population.

• When you discount children, women (for reasons that remain a puzzle, few women are afflicted), and those who are already locked up, that translates to approximately 250,000 psychopaths living freely in the U.S.

• Some researchers have estimated that as many as 500,000 psychopaths inhabit the U.S. prison system.

• Between 15 and 35 percent of U.S. prisoners are psychopaths.

• Psychopaths offend earlier, more frequently and more violently than others, and they are four to eight times more likely to commit new crimes on release.

• Kiehl recently estimated that the expense of prosecuting and incarcerating psychopaths, combined with the costs of the havoc they wreak in others’ lives, totals $250 billion to $400 billion a year.

Psychopathy continuum

What does the article say about people who may not qualify as card-carrying psychopaths, scoring less than 30 out of 40 on the PCL-R? Not much. A box accompanying the article, called Do you know a psychopath?, contains the only reference:

The thing is, everyone falls somewhere on the psychopathy continuum. The average person scores about a 4, but there are plenty who rank in the teens and 20s—not high enough to receive an official diagnosis, yet possessing significant (and often noticeable) psychopathic tendencies—the bullying boss, the drifter, the irresponsible guy who is always milking the generosity of friends and lovers.

Now, I don’t know who wrote the paragraph above—the authors of the main article, Kiehl and Buckholtz, or some editor at Scientific American Mind magazine. But the overall effect is that scope and danger of the psychopathy problem is significantly underplayed. The question is, why?

Low-ball estimates

What is to be gained by low-balling the prevalence of this personality disorder in society?

I don’t know how many of us were involved with someone who would score 30 or more on the PCL-R. But I am willing to say that most of us have experienced something significantly more damaging than, “the bullying boss, the drifter, the irresponsible guy who is always milking the generosity of friends and lovers.”

Maybe we were with people who would have scored between 10 and 29. Dr. Liane Leedom recently reported that another psychopathy researcher, Dr. Reid Meloy, says people who score between 10 and 19 have a “mild psychopathic disturbance” and people who score between 20 and 29 have a “moderate psychopathic disturbance.” Why does Kiehl ignore them?

And how about all the women who exhibit these traits? Why did Kiehl and Buckholtz give them a blanket exemption? And children? Dr. Robert Hare acknowledges that psychopathic traits can be seen in children. He’s even developed a version of the PCL-R that can be used to evaluate children as young as age 12.

The bottom line is that many psychopathy researchers work with prisoners. It’s easy to understand why—prisoners are literally a captive audience. Plus, I imagine that funding is available.

But this focus on the worst of the worst, those locked up for truly heinous crimes, vastly underestimates the danger of people with psychopathic traits, even if they don’t cross the 30-point threshold. And this is really bad for society.

Read Inside the mind of a psychopath on

Link supplied by a Lovefraud reader.

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Ox Drover

Donna, thanks for these links. I recently contacted Dr. Kiehl regarding his research in N.M. about the AVERAGE (mean) scores of the inmates, not just the 25% or so of prisoners who test at or above 30 on the PCL-R and are considered psychopaths. Dr. Kiehl said that the average score (mean) is 22 (and the average score of people at large in the population is 4) so ALL prisoners in prison (vs. jail) are very high on the psychopathic scale tool, meaning that half the prisoners are ABOVE 22 and half below 22, still the fact that someone spent time in the big boys’ prison would be a good indication that they had a statistically high chance of being HIGH on the traits on the check list and would probably not be a good relationship risk.

I think after reading the article about the psychopaths being “bad” I got a bit of a different take on the article than you seemed to have, I think the HEADLINE was a poor choice of words, but over all I agree with his article. I think they ARE different, I think they DO have something wrong (different) with the way their brain functions and processes emotional information, but that doesn’t mean they are not “bad” in the conventional use of the word, in fact I think “bad” is to tame a word for what they are—I think EVIL fits better.

I agree with you that they did ignore anything about the “moderately high” in psychopathic traits. As for the downplaying of numbers of psychopaths in “the wild” and “women” who are high in the traits (I personally think frequently misdiagnosed as some other problem instead of PPD), I don’t understand that either. I think their “statistics” are somehow skewed, by what I am not sure…a decimal point off maybe?

I do not think the different ways of processing emotional information gives them a “free ride” of “it isn’t his fault, he’s a psychopath.” I think that psychopaths, while possibly having some difficulty processing emotions like others do, still have choices, just as though an alcoholic has genetic differences and difficulties in processing alcohol ingestion, s/he still has a choice to drink or not drink. A psychopath may have difficulties in processing emotional content of words and relationships, but they still know that killing is wrong and they can choose to engage in that kind of behavior or not.

While there may eventually be a medication or therapy found for psychopathy to at least dampen down the worst of the effects on the psychopath and on society, in the meantime early intervention in children who show tendencies may help decrease the damage done to themselves and society. I too hope more research is done in finding a treatment as well as pinning down the causes.

Thanks for a great article and links, Donna.

Ox Drover

I just went back and reread that entire article you wrote Donna and I had forgotten that Kiehl had testified for leniency on the murder charge because the guy had an “abnormal brain.”

From his authorship of “Snakes in Suits, when Psychopaths go to Work” I know Bob Hare gets it about psychopaths who are NOT in prison, but I’m not sure that some PhD researchers “get it” about psychopaths outside of a prison or a “test tube!”

I have a certain amount of pity for a rabid dog, but that doesn’t mean that it shouldn’t be “taken care of as the situation demands” before it can harm someone else. It is possible that because (maybe) the good doctor PhD hasn’t had a personally devastating run in with a psychopath that he doesn’t have the empathy for the victims that he might have if he had experienced personal devastation from the “rats” he studies, or recognize a “rat” 2 out of 3 times if it isn’t in a cage. It was also interesting to me that he quoted Dr. Bob Hare’s well known line about “they know the words but not the music” without crediting it to Bob Hare just saying “it is said” instead of a direct reference.

He did say that Dr. Hare had been his mentor, though, but the reference didn’t seem “warm and fuzzy” to me in light of the Hare quote without a direct refrence.

Anyway, both articles are great food for thought.


I think this is a case of The law of the Observer. The scientist have not been able to step back far enough To really understand what He is seeing. We know that psychopathS Can be charming and manipulative. Even after all I’ve experienced I know that my XP could still disarm me if I’m not hyper vigilant. Without the experience I’ve had I would be completely helpless. and without the recordings I made I might even fall back into thinking I remember things all wrong. It’s human nature to want to see other people as human And to have compassion and understanding. even to relate to how another person might be thinking. studying psychopaths up close is too dangerous unless you have a clear understanding that you are studying evil. And you must also understand all that evil encompasses including first and foremost deception. Every kind of deception but mostly deception of your emotions, beliefs and values. Evil doesn’t work by itself. It needs something to rub up against. Its like light, if its not reflected your eye doesn’t see it (Lucifer?). Or like a virus, which has no symptoms without a host. I think the doctor, got to. Close to his subjects and got slimed but doesn’t know it yet.

Ox Drover

Dear Sky,

I think you are right there that sometimes people (researchers?) get so close to the trees that they can’t see the forest. Researching only ones that live in prisons would I think give one a skewed view of psychopaths.

Sometimes the “ivory tower” of the research lab distorts the views.


very good article Donna .i think anytime research is being done on prisoner’s ( criminals ) people behind bar’s, the diaganosis is something else all together than what most of us here have dealt with.I have never been sure the difference between a sociopath or physcopath, I think of a physcopath as being meaner and more dangerous than a run of the mill sociopath. And i prefer the research and discussion be done by some one who has slept with enemy like most of us here. Like the article above say’s {they suffer from a brain abnormality that set’s them adrift in an emotionless world}…alot of us have been traumatized by these abnormal humans that will never kill or go to prison…when it comes to research I like hands on experience not what they observed with criminal behind bars..Skylar that is a very thought provoking post you just made. You say even after all this time you have to be hyper vigilant to keep yourself out of his traps..Kim said to me the other day I was a sip away from being a drunk and she wasnt talking about booze..Kim that has stuck with me..your right I have to be very careful and not stick my nose into something that I already know stink’s…


yes, sometimes, I think about him and feel sorry for him. wonder if I could fix him. It’s nuts. I know it, but what I know and how I feel can often be contradictory. Human nature is that way and I’m human. unlike him.


Why would the doctor testify to favor the sociopaths in a trial case?

Could they be a cut from the same cloth?

A run in with sociopaths makes me sensitive to anyone who seems sympathetic to them, the people who need warning are the unsuspecting public.


It’s human nature
The doctor is just as taken in as w were. It’s. Empathy. Hard to explain but you’ve been there too. Remember what it was like


hens, Sky, Theres more ways to kill a cat than by wringing its neck! They,{the spaths,} may not actively kill us, but stress from living with them can kill!
I personally think we cannot afford to feel sorry for these sickos.
Its like feeling sorry for a drunk driver, and then realising his car is heading straight for us,and is going to kill us!
Besides, if they have no empathy, and no deeper feelings, I dont think they are capable of real deep suffering, such as they inflict on others.
I think that living with one, knowing how dangerous he/she is, is a bit like placing your whole head in the open mouth o f a lion, and daring it to eat you!
Mama gemXXSky, we CANT FIX THEM!


This p-path checklist leaves a huge gap in logic.

According to this checklist, my husband does not score as a true psychopath. But it is ONLY b/c he has never been held accountable for his juvenille behaviors nor for his criminal behaviors are borderline illegal.

He lives in a small town where he is 8th generation. His family are the original settlers. When the town hires a new police chief, there is a inner circle of men who have a “welcome talk” that certain people in town are not to ever be bothered by the police. My husband and his family are in that group.

So stealing, vandalism, beatings, assaults, growing/selling pot, etc is NEVER noted, much less prosecuted. It’s dismissed as boys will be boys…!!!

As an adult, he finally got caught soliciting in the town next to us, and they let him off with making a “donation” of $1000 to their police fund. And has never solicited there again, instead he sticks to his hometown. (he has said the one thing he will not do is go to jail. i don’t think he’s afraid. I think it’s b/c he’d not have control.) He has committed bank fraud, income tax fraud/evasion, but who’s going to get him for that? No one cares unless he does it to a bigwig and believe me, HE totally sucks up to bigwigs.

He in his 50’s and not likely to ever change his lifestyle and also b/c his home town protects him, he’s not likely to ever get “caught”. But he still dupes outside women who think they’ve hit gold, only to find pyrite, who then leave town (actually he has his cronies make life so miserable, they are effectively run out of town, me included.)

So I hope I’ve described that if he were ever held RESPONSIBLE for his crimes, he’d score as a true sociopath. Seems a big gap for error in this scoring system.

Ox Drover

You are right, Donna, and KatyDid is also, it just makes me sick that people who are “in the in-crowd” are protected from prosecution many times by local law enforcement or cut deals so they get off. The “good old boy” system is definitely at work in business and politics on a local level and ON UP to the national and international levels.

Some poor kid who robs a liquor store goes to prison for 50 years, and some white collar crook who bankrupts Enron goes to federal prison for 3 years and comes out with a zillion dollars in his wife’s name and “lives happily ever after”—that’s justice? I’m not saying that the kid who robbed the liquor store should skate, but I AM saying that the white collar crook, the crooked judges, crooked lawyers, crooked businessmen should have the same measure of justice served to them as the guy who robs a liquor store…or in some cases, harsher punishment, because they at least “knew better” and had an opportunity to DO better and were Fully adults. In some cases, they cause poverty for thousands of people, not just the one liquor store owner so the damage they do is bigger and worse.


From your name, i think you must be in the deep south somewhere. I am very famalierwith what you are describing. The good ol’ boy mentality. He may not get caught by the locals or able to pay his way out….. don’t forget we have Federal departments that all can be turned into. As far as drugs I would start with the Fed DEA. Let them know about the unethical things going on and let them do their work. There is so much corruption going on in our governments today and it is all being exsposed even in the good ol’ boy areas. Be the whistleblower in yours and you can remain annonymous. Here is the DEA website


Hi, Kimmie,
Gem here!If youve decided against giving me your address, please dont worry, I respect that.
I just wondered why I hadnt heard from you, thats all.
Hope the move to your new cottage went well!
All the best,
Love, Gem.XX


Mama Gem,
I was thinking about her today. I hope her move went well. I haven’t seen her on since before her move.


Hey NOT Crazee1.
I am. The ‘crazy one’, it even says so in the sheriff’s report when I called them after I was nearly killed by husband and his family. It was sheriffs observation that I was “mentally unstable” and lying. That’s what law enforcement concluded b/c I was shaking so hard and crying after the attack that I couldn’t hardly speak. So I was dismissed. I have NO credibility. That sheriff made sure of it. I am just “the bitter wife who can’t face being rejected by a good man who endured her for too many years.”

In that county, pot is king but DEA wants the meth labs. They could care less about weed. Besides remember California is trying to make pot legal.


When you turn him in, they will watch and probably be led to a meth lab. I urge you to turn it in to the DEA office. You can find you local office on the website I posted. I don’t care what they are doing in California, what I care about is your safety and your power to get this exsposed to higher authoritites. Please tell me you are in no contact with this man!


Did this all happen in California? Drugs and ex?


Ox Drover,
Are there grey pots in your flower bed?? LOLOLOLOL! Did EB get back in from playing snowman? Where’s Hens?


Ox Drover,
Feeling sleepy and got lost here somewhere gonna call it a night soon! Sweet Dreams and Happy Days to all!


PS> I had a veru good day today… I was actally comfortable in my own skin and went shopping! SIGH!!!!


Hey notcrazee. I bet it will be awhile before Kim get’s back online with moving and internet service, hooking up puter etc. and beside’s she need’s to make her nest and not focus on the spathology so much.. a new place a new start…maybe she and pinky doodle are busy rocking on the porch and smelling petunias..let’s hope this move put’s her in a better place so to speak. Notcrazee I am so happy you had a good day in your skin, now that is a good thing, you just keep on keepin on and you will soon have all those dark clouds behind you..


Sorry honey but you’re not hearing me. I’ve already tried. They weren’t interested. There’s drug stuff all over. Which do they pursue? Certainly not the one with the crazy wife making accusations against a historic pioneer family.



If you have to make changes for your own well being in the face of that certain, dangerous and arrogant oversight, then do it.

Who cares what any one else thinks about it. The Spath won’t!

I read this article and your story and can’t help but be outraged at the determination to keep these disordered in society and to pretend they are not what they are.

I am reminded in a flash of fury about what my experience was and the notion that there is anyway the victims might be made responsible for the spath. We are not. And we are not like them.

Only researchers who have shared the experience, only lawmakers with a personal history can know. And I can not wish it on them. But rather hope that they who do know, like Dr Leedom, will raise their voices higher and higher.

I read this article and your story and I am inspired by the notion that even those of us who are crazy or what ever else we are accused of are still strong enough to call the thing what it is.

Don’t give up your truth. Know that the changes you need now in how others think and see the situation from from the outside will come. One day, it will be undeniable. I hope most sincerely on that grim day, that you will be long gone and happy as you should be.

THat historic family sounds like a bunch of bullies. The take away honor from the families and the descendants of a great nation’s history and soil it for personal interest.

Being someone whose ancestors were ALL here at least two generations before the Revolution, I certainly take no pride nor comfort from hearing about this family. In history, we as a people have shared a common goal “Liberty and Justice for All”.

Anyone who claims legacy as grounds for denying it to anyone else on the basis of that legacy is a bully and the antithesis to what that commonality amoung us all ever was.

They are a disgrace. And they will be found out because one day they are really going to cross the line.

I hope when it happens, you are NOT there,


“The thing is, everyone falls somewhere on the psychopathy continuum. The average person scores about a 4”

I am actually DEEPLY OFFENDED by this idiotic comment and would like to see the “proof” from which it was drawn!

Just tested the spath; disconnected myself from any emotion and approached it like a business deal, so I didn’t “load him up” out of bitterness. Result? Truly, really, irrevocably a 33. I’ve only ever heard that he was a “good little boy” and was “no trouble”, so I gave him zeros for those things. Also, I wasn’t sure how many crimes would qualify as a “wide variety”, so I went easy and gave him a “1”. He could possibly score even higher if I knew more about his childhood..

Then I tested ME, because I was affronted at the thought that a rearcher could imagine for one second that I had ANY of those traits or had done ANY of those things. I don’t and I haven’t. I was a zero and I would defy anyone who knows me to find otherwise. This does not mean that I think I’m special or wonderful or better than anyone else (except, of course, the spaths…)(every ONE of us is better than any ONE of them…)

So there you silly researchers – stick THAT in your pipe and smoke it!!!

Fleeced Ewe

Yup. Yup.
And beware: Dare you point one out, your insight will be a little bitty pearl before swine; they will turn, and tear you to pieces.

Ox Drover

Dear Aussie girl,

The “average” person is the number at which half of people scored fall BELOW that number and half fall above that number—-the word average also is the same as the “mean” number, so you scoring zero is not unusual, there are others who score a zero. Scoring a 4 or a 6 is not a person who is even very dysfunctional. None of us are perfect for sure! It is the people that are 10-19 and the ones 20-29 that are seriously problematic.

I don’t think these researchers are totally off the mark, but they must realize that Just because they are working with convicts doesn’t mean the ones that are NOT convicts are not “just as bad” and that they ALL HAVE CHOICES—and should be held 100% accountable for their behaviors. If the psychopaths are not accountable, then NO ONE IS.


One thing I learned is that you really have to LISTEN when you meet someone, to what they tell you about their childhood. My xbf told me that he was abandoned by his mom, at age ten. She left 10 children, all by different fathers!, and he has NO idea who his father is. He was raised by his maternal grandmother, who taught him that masturbation was BAD, and who raised four of the children like an army seargant! She was strict and abusive and they feared her…and they lived in poverty. He was VERY vague about the details of some “father figure” who lived nearby, who taught him that a man’s conscience is in his penis!!, along with other “warped” things.
When he told me these things, and that he never dealt with his abandonment issues, (in fact, he refused to tell me anymore, or even talk about it, except that he felt that his grandmother raised him right!) I should have KNOWN that he has MANY deep-rooted issues! For one, he told me he never masturbated in his life, when we met. THIS told me that he is NOT normal..either lying or has repressed feelings..which is why he is probably addicted to porn and oversexed….(which he ADAMANTLY lies about…trying to put on a mask of a “decent man”…which he always says that he is!

Anyway, my point is…that HIS upbringing is almost exactly like Ted Bundy’s! Yet, I thought that he turned out ok, since he became a police officer and got a college degree!

I NEVER trusted his word…he was always “saying” things and never action to back up his words! He walked into work, where I met him, and bragged about how he isn’t into porn, and is a gentleman, etc…. Noone normal has to do that!

So, even though he has a good “reputation”, so he says, around town, etc…the people at work see right through him because he is too ignorant to fool everyone!

My point is that you really need to LISTEN to what someone says…When they tell you they have had a bad background, and never faced it in therapy….there is ALOT repressed that they are taking out on all they meet and encounter! They can’t be normal with abandonment issues that they didn’t face. It will come out eventually.


my X told me all these story’s of abandoment, said his grandparents raised him but then the hyper religious grandmother disowned him when he told her he was gay..but then I talked to his mother and she said that was a lie. and he is not gay he is bi-sexual – as time goes by we simply dont know what to believe..hey I have issues, deep rooted childhood issues, i have examined them, went to therapy..but I am still damaged goods..i have baggage, not as heavy as it was but I have issue’s.. I was willing to help him with his issue’s, I did help him..but now I am not sure if he had issue’s at all, I think he tapped into mine and used that miror to get what he could…..yep it was a dance they lead when we think they are following..a fool’s dance – me being the fool. I will dance alone from here on out, just me and the moon..

Ox Drover

Dear Henry,

The difference is that YOU HAVE A CONSCIENCE…he does NOT. You had pity on him because you knew what it was to be abused as a child, and your empathy and pity for him was genuine.

He DREAMED UP THE ABUSE and did mirror into yours! HE LIED.

You still keep beating yourself up because you are not perfect (BOINK!!!) but you are a good man, you’ve made some bad choices at times (God knows I sure have!) but you are not EVIL, he is. You do not enjoy hurting others, lying to others and betraying others. HE DOES!


thank you oxy 🙂


When I shared all the stuff my once upon a spath had told and convinced me to believe, the lawyers said they would not charge for the time because it was so entertaining…..

Be of faith and cheer. What they say is sound which signifies nothing. It has no more meaning to us than the sounds of geese honking.

All it means is that the spath is making noise.

There is nothing to interpret from it that has meaning.

The only defining characteristic of the relationships is the pain they leave behind.

But in time, wounds heal if we let them.

They pretended to be perfect, but that was only the begining.

And in the end, the best part is they are gone.

Ox Drover

Dear Silvermoon,

You are so right, dear! AMEN to that!

“They pretend to be perfect….” Yep, they do!

“in the end, the best part is they are gone!” Yep, it IS THE BEST PART!

Thanks,, Silver.


Dear Hens,
Don’t flagilate your self for being loving, human, empathetic and imperfect! ….we all here on LF are. Spath is not. He is just a cocophony of broken mirror edges that reflect what is or was closest to him at the moment (you) to create his own fake identity of himself since he really has no true self of his own.
peace and love to you!


I’d like to take this opportunity to thank you. your posts always give me food for thought. you have much wisdom and insight.
By the way did you say you took the PCLR?
Where did you find it? I would be very curious to read it.
That was so funny about the attorneys refusing to take payment . So now we know that spaths can have entertainment value!
One attorney that I called, after hearing my story, insisted that I had been involved with a SPY.
That’s another red flag: their stories are so unbelievable that you would never doubt them because, who would lie like that? But the truth is so bizarre that no one would believe it because, who does shit like that? Who thinks like that? Whose brain can wrap around the way they think? No one.


Silver, Dorothy Parker said,{amongst other clever things!
“Time wounds all Heels!”
You dont often hear that word now, “a heel”. I guess it means a rat, a dork, a clown,a cad,a slimeball.


Ox Drover,
I don’t know what has gotten in to me the past 2 days, or gotten out of me for that matter. I started feeling comfortable in my own skin, a little shopping and YES some nesting. I have been moving furntiture and things instead of just thinking about it or hiring in a girl to do it for me like I did for the past 2 years. I am opening containers that I haven’t looked in for 2 years. I don’t get that sinking feeling anymore. I am even looking in stuff from my childhood. I don’t know what I have and where it is at and I have avoided it becuase of my reaction. I don’t know what is happening but I LIKE IT! No, I’m not doing this because company is coming…. actually I am going to a neighbors house tomorrow for dinner. No family, just neighbors. Thank God for the neighbors. One is a woman my age that is a survivor of an spath also. I look at things and don’t feel as much pain as I did or overwhelmed as much as I was. I think I might being turning a corner here. I just hope I stay on this track! I am exhausted!


gem – my fave d.p quote on gardening; ‘you can lead a horticulture, but you can’t make her think.’


Hi Hens {{{hugs}}
you are not evil…. you are awesome!


mama gem,
A HEEL…. basically is just a LOSER!!!! and all that you listed too. An spath! LOLOLOL


LOLOLOLOL! One!!! good one!


hens – you come up against this one often; it is your question:’ Am I a spath?’

Define spath. Does your definition of it fit your actual traits?

Have you been endlessly grandiose in exposing your valouress, selfless deeds?

Do you champion only your own interests, at the sake of the interests of others?

Have you killed anyone?

Raped anyone?

Molested a child?




Have you stolen money or goods? Many times?

Have you cheated on any lover?

Have you secretly hurt or bullied friends, strangers or family members?

Have you lied to the government?

Have you lied on your resume?

Have you ever said that you were a veteran?

Have you sold drugs to children?

Have you stolen a car?

Have you killed more than one person?

Have you ever pretended to be more than one person?

Have you lied about your age, gender, orientation to take advantage of another’s preferences?

Have you threatened to expose people you know secrets about, to gain their compliance?

Have you ever hired someone to kill, beat or intimidate another perosn?

To steal from them?

Have you hurt another without care for their pain?

When you cry, is it a performance?

Do you tell people you love them to get them to do what you want?


I thought not.


Hens….the operative word is “I was WILLING to help with his issues……

When someone has “deep rooted” issues, and they don’t resolve them and face them on their own….with a professional…NOONE can help them heal from their past wounds.

My that I have worked on my “issues” and I am “healthier” than I’ve ever been…so I do NOT want to attract someone who is not where I am.

They say that “likes attract likes”…and we bring people into our lives on the “level” we are at…

So, if you are “healthy”, you will attract “healthy” people.

“Healthy” …..meaning confident in yourself, high self esteem, self respect and self regard..(able to have boundaries with people), physically in good shape (or working on it), and happy with who you are.

When I met the socios I let into my life, at different points in my life…it was always when I was feeling “lonely, desparate, and unconfident ” in who I was.

So, now I have a motto….”Red flags and boundaries”….
Never again will I violate my new rules!


Onestep, I LOVe Dorothy Parkers wit.
Here is her famous poem,”Resume” on Suicide.
“Razors Pain you,
Rivers are damp,
Acids stain you,
And drugs cause cramp.
Guns arent lawful,
Nooses give,
Gas smells awful
You might as well live.”
And I like these,–
“You cant teach an old Dogma new tricks.”
Four be the things Id have been better without,
Love, curiosity,
freckles, and doubt.”
“I require only three things ofa man,He must be handsome,ruthless,and stupid.’
“Take care of the Luxuries, and the necessities willtake care of themselves.”
The two most beautiful words in the English language,
“Cheque enclosed.”
” I like to have a martini,
Two at the very most.
After three, Im under the table,
after four,Im under my host.”
“All I need is room enough to lay a hat, and a few friends.”
“”Ive been too F–king busy’-or vice versa.”{this after a letter from her editor,asking her for more stories during her Honeymoon.}
Of Ayn Rands book, “Atlas Shrugged”,Parker wrore,
“This is not a novel to be tossed aside lightly.It should be thrown with great force.”
And your quote,
When asked to use the word”Horticulture”in a sentence, during a game of “Can you give me a sentence”,Parker replied,
“You can lead a horticulture but you cant make her think!”
Great stuff!
Love, mama gemXX


Of Ayn Rands book, “Atlas Shrugged”,Parker wrore,
“This is not a novel to be tossed aside lightly. It should be thrown with great force. BRAVO!!


The reason I am not “falling apart” as I was last year, is because THIS time around, when I went back with the X…(after he begged me and reeled me in), I went in MUCH stronger than I’ve ever been. I left him in Feb-July…and I dedicated my life to ME…worked on regaining my self-esteem, got into better physical and mental shape.

So, “round 3” I was a confident happy person and I set boundaries. I didn’t “cater” to him or “jump” to him….I didn’t keep quiet when I doubted his word….(confronted him and caught him in lies). I wouldn’t sleep with him if he didn’t take me out and spend time with him outside of the bedroom!

Well, HE got frustrated. The “old me” was gone…and he got angry and I ended the relationship. I saw the light. I saw him for what he really wants….and I didn’t give into him.

I went back and regained my dignity. It was MY turn to put him to the just being “me”. He didn’t like me, because I wasn’t the perfect “supply” anymore.

I don’t have PTSD, I have my DIGNITY and I feel FREE from a toxic person.

PS….He is probably on his dating sites now (which he claims he never goes on)….24/7 looking for his next “victim”.

So be it. I wasn’t ‘normal and healthy” three years ago when we met…..Now I’ve come a long way…the “hard” way… by trying to love someone who isn’t capable of loving back…and I learned so much.

I just know that only “healthy” people will be in my life now..and forever.


tobehappy – keep working on regaining your self esteem – if you’d been in a reallygood place you wouldn’t have gotten sucked in again, by the same person. take care and be vigilant.


I rode with town yesterday with my neighbor Dana and her mom. Dana’s mom moved up here recently. While Dana was waiting for her prescription, her mom and I talked. Dana’s mom asked me if I would consider getting back with Jim. She brought this up out-of-the-blue. I said absolutely not.

I gave her an over view of Jim.

Now I see this socio path guideline? thingy

I gotta post it here and respond to it.

Antisocial behavior

•Need for stimulation and proneness to boredom
•Parasitic lifestyle
•Poor behavioral control
•Sexual promiscuity
•Lack of realistic long-term goals
•Early behavior problems
•Juvenile delinquency
•Parole of probation violations
Emotional/interpersonal traits

•Glibness and superficial charm
•Grandiose sense of self-worth
•Pathological lying
•Conning and manipulativeness
•Lack of remorse or guilt
•Shallow affect
•Callousness and lack of empathy
•Failure to accept responsibility for own actions
Other factors

•Committing a wide variety of crimes
•Having many short-term marital relationships

– Jim was bored out-of-his mind being around me. He couldn’t wait to go home. He seemed to love going across the street by Dana and her boyfriend, cause it was in my face. I can see Dana’s house from my window.

-Jim is a mooch. He is a master at getting money out of his friends and me. He seems to thrive at this. It doesn’t bother his conscience a bit. He seems very happy with this lifestyle.

-He has no control over his behavior thus the screaming at me. He seems to control it around others. But, it is fake. He puts on that smile, and nervous laugh. He laughing shakes and dips his head forward as he plays it off. Around me he would explode at me while he held his attention on me staring me down with pure anger on his face.

-Jim is into more sex stuff than I know. I got the gist of it on his computer. All the porn sites, and the swingers, and the sex dating sites. And on his desktop were two pictures of women in negligee. These were pictures the women took of themselves. Add in I never knew his whereabouts at night or on weekends.

-Jim is a dreamer. His dreams bounce around from having bikini-clad women selling hot dogs in Wisconsin Dells, to going to school to learn to build solar panels, to real estate. Jim was planning for the real estate properties to be put in my name, cause I have good credit, and he be the manager and maintenance. He backed out of the idea when he decided I can’t be trusted.

-Jim’s lack of impulse…. ok! Here is one! Jim would up-and decide to do something with me, but not tell me. One time he wanted to take me for a walk. I saw this smile come across his face (he was smiling to himself) Then he reached for my hand and he pulled me out of the lawn chair. He kept pulling on me. I was stumbling forward. He kept pulling on my hand. I yelled “let go of me!” He got pissed off and screamed at me at length. Then he told me he planned to take me for a romantic walk. But, not he is not and it is because of my attitude and he stomped off and drove off. This is just ONE of many examples of Jim impulse planning.

-Jim is not responsible. He starts jobs and demands money. Then he walks off the job. He may come back. But then he toys around and demands more money and then walks off again. He doesn’t pay his bills. He is in arrears on his child support. He is behind in his property taxes. And you know this also means he doesn’t have home owners insurance.

-Jim said his older brothers taught him how to hot-wire a car at age 5. Jim learned how to cut class in elementary school. He had a buddy do the dirty work so Jim wasn’t marked absent. Jim would take the bus to the zoo and join any elementary class field trip. He said he blended in easily. He even got lunch out of it. He told the zoo employees that his lunch was stolen and they made him a lunch. Funny that as an adult Jim would not go to the zoo with me. He said he doesn’t believe that animals should be held captive. Gee, it worked for him years earlier… And Jim put his cats in his back bathroom to live there.

– Jim was involved with many forms of theft. He went to prison for 18 months for being the get-away car for a robbery. He also pulled pranks of a creepy level. He got mad at an annoying person at a party. He waited for the person to pass out and Jim spray painted the person’s hair, and applied paint to the person’s face. He also said he flipped up a girls top, because she dared him to. He took it further than that and flipped up her bra too.

-Parole violations- He served 18 months because it was the second time he was the get-away driver.

-Glibness- Jim is a smart-ass. He doesn’t know when to stop. He would call Monday morning and pretend to be an obscene caller. It was annoying in the morning, it was annoying anytime, especially in the morning. I don’t like that stuff, it is NOT me. I was supposed to always side with him in his stories where he was wronged. But, when I told my stories about being wronged — he would side with the other party. He said he was playing Devil’s Advocate. But, if I were to play the same on him he would EXPLODE!

– Self-importance-Jim always bitched that I didn’t do enough for him. Or he complained about the lack of sex. He complained that I am a witchey women. He complained and complained and complained. Yet when I asked why does he ditch me at night and on weekends — he had 100 excuses. And I should understand all that cause he has to deal with me and MY KID.

-Lying- Everything about him was a lie, every word out of his mouth is a lie.

-conning and manipulative- There wouldn’t be a Jim if it were not for these traits. He is so slick! He told me to look at the local newspaper to find upcoming auctions that weekend. Lo and behold! I find an auction that is selling lawn mowers and rotor tillers. Just what I have been looking for! He even assisted me in the bidding. We got the lawn mower and rotor tiller to my house and he wanted to “borrow” it. He took it and used it for his handyman work. He kept it for 9 months. I had to threaten court action to get it back. He brought the stuff back, and it didn’t work. He said it worked just fine before. And I or MY KID must have done something to it.

-Lack of remorse or guilt- He didn’t care about my feelings. He would get pissed off and scream when I tried to talk to him about his treatment of me and my son. He said we treat him like shit.

– shallow effect- he laughs and appears happy-go-lucky when he is at the neighbors across the street. In full view of me.

Lack of empathy- Jim had more empathy for others than he ever had for me- for me he had NONE. I was the dirt on his shoe. I was nothing but the cash cow. I look back at the things he told me about his past relationships, and even though he told a good story about himself, I see that he doesn’t value the person he is with. He doesn’t value his friends either cause he uses them too. His friends still worship Jim. Dana’s mom said that she wonders what kind of hold Jim has on his friend Dennis. Dennis always has to ask Jim first. She said Dennis acts like Jim is his dad even though Dennis is older.

I need to copy this and save it and reference it in future in case I ever get a silly ideal of jumping in with a man again.

Ox Drover

I agree one_step, “pride goeth before a fall” and believe me I have THOUGHT so many times that I was “healthy” and “healed” only to realize I was arrogant and prideful in thinking I was smarter than I was!

I remember thinking when I was working with the women from the DV shelter who would invariably go BACK to the guy who had broken their arms and I thought “I would NEVER go back to a man who beat me up like that” (very self righteously thought) but yet, I WENT “BACK To” MY P-SON and let HIM abuse me. Yep, I would not have let a husband or lover beat me up, but I sure let my friends and relatives take advantage of me—so much for my ARROGANCE.

LOL ROTFLMAO Yep, I sure thought I was “safe” and “smarter” than before, I was superior to those women at the DV shelter, LOL but you know, I was WORSE OFF THAN they were because I THOUGHT I was smarter. “let him to thinketh he stand, take heed least he fall”—yep, I don’t get cocky any more. I realize now that I must CONTINUALLY watch myself, and ENFORCE the boundaries or I will fall right back into the old enabling habits.

I have to make life-style CHANGES not just a short term “diet” and then go back to what I was doing before, and since it WAS a life-long pattern for me, it would be easy to slip back into that old, dysfunctional pattern of “functioning in my dysfunction.”

Ox Drover

Dear Jeannie,

We posted over each other and I didn’t see your post until I posted mine. GREAT POST, sounds like you got this guy pegged to the ground! Yep!

I’m sorry you had to go through so much of that chit to get to where you are today but glad that you seem to have gotten the nuts and bolts of this thing nailed down solid.

He matches up to the qualifications for being a psychopath and except for being a “PhD” serial killer, he at least has a masters degree in cunning and manipulation, with a major in FAKE!

Did your neighbor’s mother get the idea of why you have no intention of going back to “Jim?” I hope so. Sometimes though, ordinary people just can’t get it. The only person it really matters though is if YOU get it.

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