By | December 6, 2008 177 Comments

Risk Assessment for Violence, Playing the Odds

By Joyce Alexander, RNP (Retired)

I recently bought a book, Violence Risk and Threat Assessment: A Practical Guide for Mental Health and Criminal Justice Professionals, by J. Reid Meloy, Ph.D. I actually bought it to give some “credence” to the statistics I put into my letter to the parole board protesting the release on parole of the Trojan Horse-Psychopath that attacked our family,

Of course this book is directed, as the title says, to professionals, and to assess risk of violence. But since we are dealing with psychopaths, it is, I think, a good idea for us to be able also to look at the assessment for possible violence in our own psychopaths when we thwart their desires, or kick them to the curb. We need to answer the questions, “Is my psychopath likely to respond with violence? If so, how?”

Most violent individuals are not violent all the time. In the introduction, the author illustrates that “just because an abnormality (in behavior) ”¦ only shows on occasion, does not mean it has gone away.” (My emphasis.)

A “false negative” is when you decide that your individual will not be violent, and you are wrong. You may pay for this decision with your life. A “false positive” is when you think your individual will be prone to violence, and they are not. Being prepared for violence, even if your individual psychopath does not turn out to be physically violent is, of course, the safest way to play it. If you are going to err, erring on the side of caution is the best course. False positives are less damaging to us than false negatives.

There are also different kinds of “violence.” Not all violence that does damage to us is physical. Psychopaths can become financially violent and deprive us of our income, our estate, and a hundred other violations that we can all imagine.

Contributors to violence

Dr. Meloy uses what he calls a bio-psycho-social model for Violence Risk Assessment to assess an individual’s risk for violence. This consists of the biological aspects, the psychological aspects and the social aspects of the individual in question.

The first, the psychological domain, contains such things as gender, age, past history of violence, frequency of violence, how recent have they been violent, and severity of past violence, paranoia, intelligence, anger, fear problems, and the frequency and intensity of them, as well as control of impulses. Of course, the psychopathy and other attachment problems will weigh in heavily on this.

The second, the social or environmental domain, looks at the family of origin violence, economic instability and poverty, WEAPONS HISTORY, weapon skill, interest and approach behavior, as well as alcohol and or psycho-stimulant use.

The third domain is the biological one. Is there a history of head trauma, or major mental disorder (like untreated bi-polar disorder).

Dr. Meloy also emphasizes that the MOST IMPORTANT factor in his judgment is the history of past violence. The best predictor of future violence is a history of past violence.

Questions to ask yourself in doing your own “risk assessment for violence” in your psychopath are: How “provoked” is your psychopath by losing you? Do they have the paranoid personality disorder, in which they feel “that everyone is out to get them,” with a long memory for imagined slights or wounds from those people “out to get them”? Are they chronically angry, fearful and jealous? Some forms of illegal drugs will also contribute to paranoia, and as the use of drugs and the interest and reliance on weapons goes up, so does the risk of violence. Dr. Maloy mentions the killing of Nichole Brown Simpson, where she was not only killed, but after death her body almost beheaded. He says that drugs, along with the rage, could have easily lowered the threshold for the abandonment rage which probably motivated the killer.

Fear and stalking

Dr. Meloy also goes into the lack of difference between biochemical reactions to both fear and anger. Both cause the same reaction within the body. How intense is the anger response in the person you are evaluating? How does the person handle anger?

Dr. Meloy differentiates between two different kinds of violence by illustrating his text with a story about a cat.

We have all seen a cat, cornered by a dog, with its hackles raised, its tail up, hissing and spitting. That cat is emotionally reacting in a violent way to the fear inside it that it is going to be attacked by the dog. (This is called “affective” or emotional violence in reaction to a perceived threat.) Once the perceived threat is gone, the cat will quickly return to a state of calm. The purpose of this kind of violence is “threat reduction.”

The second type of violence illustrated with another story of a cat is the predatory violence, which is planned and purposeful and goal directed.

The planned and purposeful (or predatory) violence has a minimal or absent autonomic arousal, (which is the hair standing on end, the hissing and spitting etc.). As you observe the cat in predatory violence—such as stalking a mouse or bird—the cat is calm, cool and collected. It is focused on a goal as it stalks the prey. It tries to keep its purpose (violence) hidden and it tries to keep the prey from realizing that it is prey.

The brain chemicals released in each of these states of violence are completely different. The emotionally generated fear induced violence is a defense mechanism. It can still be a threat to anyone who is the perceived enemy, but it quickly subsides once the threat is gone.

With predatory violence, the predator is goal directed to do violence to the prey. They may plot and plan and take quite some time to stalk and corner the prey. The predator may strike without warning. Unlike emotionally (fear) induced violence, predatory violence is not time limited and the stalking may go on for days, weeks, months or years.

Knowing which type of violence your psychopathic adversary is involved with at any given moment can help you assess what your course of action should be. If the Psychopath is showing the “cornered cat” response, for example for being confronted in a lie, your best response is to just “back off” and let them calm down when the perceived threat is removed. If the psychopath is stalking you; emotionally, financially, or physically, they will not be so obvious to spot as the enraged cat. Once you have determined that the person you are dealing with is a psychopath, or likely one, you must assume that the person will engage in predatory violence on some level. The fact that this stalking and predatory violence may be very subtle does not make it any less dangerous.

In the short term, cornering one in a threatening manner (confrontation of any kind) can produce an emotionally violent response or even physical attack, but in the long term, the predatory violence can do more damage to us, body and soul. We need, I think, to assess the state our psychopath is operating in, and learn when to back off with confrontations, and when to prepare ourselves for “out of the blue” attacks when they are in a predatory state.

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Thanks OxD.

t is good to always be cognizant that they may react and that no confrontation is worth it.

Mine was physically small and weak, he chose property damage. I found out, he had been destructive in past. And involved in shoving exwife around, not sure how far that went. I know too he had a lot of fantasies about violence and exacting it on exwives.

I have learned they lie about many things, but when they threat and call names- it’s them, it’s gospel.

Elizabeth Conley

Hi OxDrover,

Here’s how I assess these issues.

It’s not as intellectual as your approach, but it’s kept my bacon out of the fire thus far.

All I’ve got to add is that you can’t go wrong with listening to and trusting your instincts. We usually blunder into trouble because we’ve ignored our instincts or forgotten how to listen to them entirely.


I learned early on in the 7 yr anti-relationship Bog! That to try to discuse an issue or make a point or confront a problem with His behavior was intirely a waste of breath! And When Alcohol was involved , I did’nt even have to say anything , but by me just trying to get distance from him while he was under the influence ! At several episodes the only intelegent thing to do was to altogether LEAVE. And Wait for him to pass out , or leave on his own or have him arrested! Thanks OxD LOVE JJ

Ox Drover

Dear Elizabeth,

Oh, I agree with you on listening to our INSTINCTS. I just bought this book for a particular purpose and I saw some interesting new angles from Meloy’s intellectual angles.

Since I have recently been dealing with the PREDATORY violence of the Trojan Horse P who was a master of disguise and the predatory violence of my P son, who was “pulling his puppet strings” I realized I had been ignoring my instincts because of the nature of the predatory violence.

There are lots of ways to look at this risk assessment and I am now looking at things from a gut level now as well as from observation and assessment of past behavior.

Thanks for the link, Elizabeth, I believe the more we know about assessing people in general, violent or not, the better off we will be….

Indie, I AVOID ALL PEOPLE WHO DRINK TO EXCESS in terms of having any kind of close relationship with them.


I am reading The Declaration of Human Rights

We do not Follow this Declartion in the USA are we still a member of the United Nations?


Oh Thats Rite it is outdated 1949:(


indigo: i believe the declaration of human rights is from 1987. it’s not outdated, and no, we don’t follow it in this country … but hopefully our new president will make certain that we do.


1949 is on the document


Sorry Dec 10 1948


i have a booklet from 1987. maybe it was reissued then. gee, you’d think we’d have gotten it by now. we’ve had 90 years …


I know it’s in our own Constitution but that is outdated too ! 🙁 buy one get one free at the dollar store or BIG LOTS


That was REALLY good! I want to get that book after the holidays. The confrontational part was interesting in considering the recent behavior of my family member and would have been helpful having the knowledge to walk away from her and not engage in any conversation when she was in that violent mode but I didn’t see it until after I responded to her words and looked into her eyes, full of hatred and the smirk on her face of having done malice. Always creepy to see that even though it has been a rare occurrence to witness that in people. It throws you off balance like you have stepped into a different, confusing dimension.
This is a great topic OxDrover. I hope we can all stay on subject about it and share valuable experiences and input because there is a lot to be said and learned here.

I have to say it kind of peeves me to see people posting about (clipping their toenails), and I say this tongue in cheek not to hammer anyone; at least until we can get 100 or so blogs pertaining to the subjects before the jokes and side distractions come (which we all do need the humor). I just enjoy the information and experience people bring to the subjects because I seriously need this information exchange. The link Elizabeth posted was excellent too. Also, would like to buy the book on Emotional Vampirism. I’m sorry if I sound like a spoil sport because I have had some great titters and guffaws from reading some very funny posts of people on here. I just have a hard time scrolling through 20-30 one liners right when I am getting into the information exchange on serious subjects that will better our lives. Ok I’m sounding like a grouchy person who should stop there!


OxDrover and Indigo,
OxDrover, I got the psych reports back yesterday- after 6 months of hell and waiting. More to the point, it has really been about 9 years of him telling me he was going to prove to “everyone I was crazy because I see a therapist”, and he was going to take my son and prove me unfit. I WON!!! Meaning it was recommended I be given full custody and his visitation will be limited- decided and agreed upon after my son and I meet with the GAL next week. Thank you Ancient of Days!!!!! Thank you OxDrover, for your powerful prayers and all of you who took the time to pray for my little boy and I. I continue to keep all of you in my prayers too. Everyone here is so diverse, individual, outspoken and full of loving advice which has kept me here. We get 1 hour in therapy a week when and if we can afford it, but here it is that back up in our day or week when things go well or wrong and we can come here to share and help one another. My therapist (don’t get to go much these days) has kept me going for many years but she can’t be there every moment; even so a therapist is like a precious gift for your spirit. Second, my daughter is moving back home for 6 months because she is getting engaged and married. She needs to save money as does her fiance for their wedding. I can’t wait to have her home! Very excited! Yesterday was a pouring out of blessings for my family. I am in praise and awe.

Indigo, can you post some of or all of The Declaration on Human Rights. I would like to see them. Thanks if you can.

Blessings, Breach


This was a very interesting read and valuable. It dawned on me just how many P’s I have encountered in my life and how to me things seemed so normal. Right now I am having my life infected by a virus that seems to grow stronger with each breath it takes. This virus has set out on a path of not only self destruction but has tried to wipe out those that love them like Hurricane Katrina. I have installed a new software in my brain to keep the hacking and intrusions out, however this virus is going out of it’s way to seek and destroy. In some ways I have let society know what kind of person this sick individual is. The backlash has been mind blowing. I read on here way back the man posting about who he was and how he would do anyone in who let the “cat out of the bag” and this is what I am dealing with. HELP!! It just won’t go away. Since they have yet to physically attack me the police are of no help at all. It’s sick how our system allows these horrible disease infested people get away with anything. My virus always stays just with in the limits of the law. What can I do? I moved. Stopped all communication with them and they seem too thrive on trying to find ways to “finish me off” without actual contact with me. This is even affecting people not involved with them. Any advice would be greatly appreciated!!


shattered_sapphire: You said you moved. Did you also change jobs? If you are still working in the same location, they can follow you home any time they want … and then know where you live again.

Just know this fact.



Thank you very much, Oxdrover. This is very helpful information. I really appreciate that you wrote this report.

My p/s has paranoia (big time), he thinks everyone is out to get him, fascination with guns, and HISTORY OF VIOLENCE. This article is a confirmation to me that it is OK to be concerned about the possibility of violence.

I am wondering about people on this blog, have they witnessed the kind of response you noted at the end of your comments. Can they give examples of confronting the p/s about something (lies, finances, other love interest, stealing, etc. ) and a violent response following? Does anyone remember “backing off” from the p/s when they noticed the “cornered cat response”? I think it would be interesting to hear any examples and see what we could learn from them.


How many ya want?
The last one. I wanted to sleep , I had to work the next day. I had put up with the rap crap music all evening so around 9:30pm I went to my room to sleep. He would not turn the music down! He Brought his boom box into my room so , I had had enough! I tried to explain! It is like talking to empty space! I pulled the plug on the boom box! So he wacked me in the head with the cord! I told him to leave my house and he punched me in the face!
I had to escape the house and then call Sherif!


That should bring the whole Doc. up LOVE JJ


I put this in another post but since you are talking about it here I thought I could add it here also:

This December 10th is the 60th anniversary of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights ratified by the United Nations. It is only 1700 words long but it is a very thoughtful document that, to me, every group/organization should read and follow. Sadly not a lot of people have ever even heard about this document let alone read it. Here is a link to it for those who wish to read it:…..20_eng.pdf


Odd that link doesnt seem to work when its compressed like that. Here is a link that hopefully will


Here is the link to the text version rather than the pdf version:


Right It was you who got me to go read it Thanks

Elizabeth Conley


While I agree that alcoholism is bad news, I’ve noticed that drugs cause at least as much trouble.

Two relationships in my life are profoundly effected by prescription drugs intended for pain management. One of the worst is neurontin, yet there is very little awareness of the hazards.

I find that the S who was getting opiates for pain management was able to manage the worst of his behaviors when he was not on the drugs because he couldn’t afford them. When he could afford them, he felt better but his behavior was atrocious.

We have a nutty member of our family who acts out in all sorts of bizarre ways. One of the things she does is diagnose herself with rare, incurable conditions. Then she shops on line for “webdoctors” and gets prescriptions for dangerous drugs I wouldn’t take on a dare. Neurontin is one of them. When she’s on it you never know what to expect. Paranoia, rages, and odd stupors all seem to go with the territory.

I wish these “pain clinics” and “webdoctors” would act more responsibly. Their patients can be dangerous, yet there doesn’t seem to be any monitoring of who prescribed what when the patient’s family and community is effected.

Elizabeth Conley

PS – and when you add prescription drugs to the picture, all bets are off when it comes to predicting behavior. Particularly neurontin. That stuff causes the most bizarre behavior ever, and the patient is totally unpredictable. You can have some clue that a person is under the influence of an opiate, but these new neurological agents like “lyrica” and neurontin cause a degree of unpredictability I’ve never encountered before.

That, and the “off label” prescribing habits of some doctors is totally cuckoo. They hand out dangerous toxins to all comers as if it were Halloween candy.


Dear Elizabeth,

Are you saying that online Dr.s will prescribe drubs to patients they have never even seen?!! There is so much WRONG with that!


Wini: We have changed any and all routines except one. A legal name change. Which would be almost pointless because of legal costs and the fact that it knows too many people in my life. Some of whom do not realize who this person really is. It would be impossible to try and “control” the level of knowledge this one receives daily. It’s like a car wash vacuum sucking anything and everything from anyone in exchange for something. This disease has the capabilities of finding me through many means by the circle of friends the virus has. As you can tell I am getting slightly irritated lately. Innocents are being abused emotionally right at this very moment. The day the world sees it for who it really is will climb the ladder to one of the best days I have yet to see. Watching it use others and do them in to prove a truth to be a lie is horrible. Wini I try and pray for this person. I go from being angry, hurt & upset to complete guilt over feeling the way I feel at times. I’ve asked God to help me with this issue. He obviously wants me to deal with what is going on and make it to home base a little dirty having to get up and dust myself off. There is no other explanation. He only gives us what we can handle right? 🙂 God can be so powerful, he will do what needs to be done all in good time.

Elizabeth Conley


Yepindoodles. “Webdoctors” are the legal pushers of our culture. Until they’re shut down or policed in some manner, we’ve got a scary problem that could pop up any where.

Law abiding citizens can get their dangerous fixes in the privacy of their own homes. Thanks “Webdoctors”.

Ox Drover

Dear Elizabeth,

I agree that drugs (of several kinds) are just as addicting as alcohol and cause as many or more problems. “Self medicating” for any problem with drugs incorrectly prescribed/used or alcohol can definitely cause unpredictable behavior, as well as combinations of these things.

I have seen neurotin used very successfully without the side effects you mentioned, but not in personality disordered people. Soemtimes with poly-pharmacy including street drugs, Rx drugs, and alcohol in combination with severe mental illness or dual diagnosis you can get some bizzare behavior and very violent.

The availability of “drugs” (sometimes COUNTERFIT DRUGS) over the internet is scary. I can’t tell you how scary it is to me.

Though I can barely afford my antidepressant, I will not order them over the internet for 10% of what I am paying here out of pocket because I am afraid of getting counterfit pills. You just don’t know who you are dealing with.

Learning about violence from a rational standpoint is something I think we should all do. Oh, just as an aside, Dr. Meloy was involved in a case I saw on 48 Hours Mystery the other day where a boy was put in prison for 10 years for a murder he DID NOT COMMIT on Dr. Meloy’s testimony looking at the violent drawings the kid made as a 15 year old, that was the ONLY EVIDENCE USED TO CONVICT THE KID. It turned out that the detective who persued this young man for years and with held evidence that the kid was not the murderer (who is now being sued) was proven wrong 20 years after the murder by DNA evidence of the real killer (who has yet to be prosecuted but is known) It was an ex boyfriend whose DNA was found on her mutilated body and inside her underware. Also two sets of foot prints proved she was carried, not dragged, by two people from the place she was murdered to where her body was left mutilated. Those foot prints and types of shoe did NOT match the boy’s. The boy is now out of prison, a man 37 years old whose life has been ruined by a probable psychopathic detective who to this day still states the boy had to be the one who did it (in spite of the DNA evidence). Ya ever know a P to admit they were wrong? LOL I’m sorry that Dr. Meloy was caught up in that case, it was a big black eye for him.

His book, though, is a really good book, I think, because it gives some very good examples on predicting behavior and violence. Though he is not always right (none of us can be) never the less we have to PLAY THE ODDS and err on the side of CAUTION.

Too many people have been hurt or killed because they could not “see” that “s/he would do something that horrible.”

Dear Shattered_sapphire, God won’t give us more than we can take, but He will give us from tiem to time ALL we can take I think, but just as in lifting weights to grow your muscles you have to attempt to do something you can barely do, it stretches our capabilities, just as exercise to the limit stretches the capabilities of the muscles.

I remember when I was a little kid in day school (age 4 I guess) thinking I could NEVER REMEMBER ALL THOSE LETTERS IN THE ALPHABET. It was just too much to expect me to memorize those things—-but I did. I remember in chemistery feeling that I could never remember all that stuff, it was just too much, but I did. Pushing ourselves past what WE think we can do but God knows we can helps us grow, just like the teacher pushing us to learn ALL THE ALPHABET. LOL Or my Chem prof making me memorize all the sugars and all the other formulas.

Just as I can look back and see my intellectual growth from memorizing the alphabet and the sugars, I can look back and see my SPIRITUAL growth through this time I have spent in trials and chaos and confusion. So even though this has been a painful learning process, just as learning the alphabet and the sugars were painful learning processes, I think in the end, it has been worth it.

I still “backslide” from time to time, and if something surprises me I “freak” out for a minute, but it isn’t “freaking out” for a month or a season like it was before. I am getting habituated to living a “normal” and “healthy” life, and thinking in a better manner, and behaving in a better manner—and having a better relationship spiritually and emotionally.

“It’s an ill wind that blows no one good.”


Oxy, Thanks for the chemistry reference. I’m studying for my Final Exam on Tuesday right now and having a very difficult time. Perhaps changing my mindset to the “I Can” mindset will help!

In reference to the P detective you spoke of, that is one of the things I find most amazing in my malignant N ex. The ability to lie, deny in the face of undeniable evidence. I’d like to delve deaper in that one and how it relates to False Connsensus Bias and Cognitive dissonance as I read earlier today (via a link from someone on lovefraud). This is one of my x’s big tools. Unfortunately I gotta get back to the chemistry and then study for my other 2 finals this week. Blah! Means to an end…right?!

Ox Drover

Dear Escaped,

Good luck with your studying and your exams. I have vivid memories of that, believe me! LOL You just sparked another article in my mind. I’ll tell you about it later, get back to work studying! LOL


Hi s-sapphire

I’m so sorry to hear what you are going through, I have been through the same. In the UK you can get an alarm fitted by the Police that links directly to the nearest police station, in cases of serious threats of violence. Can you get anything similar?

It will only protect you at home, but it does help give you peace of mind.

Not that it helped in my case, as the P’s will bide their time (as mine warned). If you have been seriously threatened you must keep your guard up. It took my P six months before he followed through with his threat (by then I had thought he had given up) , but even then did not do it himself, he paid someone else.

Be careful when you get in and out of your car. Make sure no one is hanging around your home, have your keys ready and answer the door to no one unless you know for sure who it is.

If in real doubt call the Police and ask them to check it out.

Take care xx


Excellent article, Oxy. Sapphire, another book you might find helpful is The Psychology of Stalking: A Clinical and Forensic Perpective. It was edited by Meloy.


Wow, I only had time to scan this article, and it’s another good one. Thanks, OxD. I definitely have my guard up now that the investigation is finally happening with my ex in the army. When it’s over, I haven’t ruled out the possibility that he could come after me. He doesn’t have a history of violence I’m told, but he is probably on lots of meds for his alleged “head injury” that we don’t know if he really has or not. What is most likely is that he will return to my reptile forum where I so happily spend so much of my time. If he does, I won’t even question the decision–I’ll just leave, as much as it will be like ripping off my left arm. After all, the internet is MY addiction, so it can only be a good thing in the end. Wish me luck. My deposition is tomorrow am.

OxD, how are you doing with the Trojan Horse P being out on parole?


Can’t you block a user on your site?
Does Levinworth have computers for inmates?
You Will Do Fine Star Trust the Force! Wear a Snake piece of Jewelry or a Snake Shirt . Take a piece of Skin with you to hold! :)~ Ssssssssss BIG SQUEEZE LOVE YA STAR JJ

Ox Drover

Dear Star,

Thanks for asking, actually, Friday when I found out he was released, I sort of “freaked out” in a combination of frustration, suprise and anger at the system not doing what it was supposed to. However, now that the “suprise” is over I am coping okay again. We are continuing to keep our guard up, keep doors locked, and be cautious, keeping fire arms near, but not living in terror by any means.

I did have my son C warn my mother that he was out, but she was so hateful to him about her sending moneyto my P-son that he said “I’m done with her completely” and is total NC with her now as well.

In the meantime I am contacting the warden at my P-son’s prison to send her a copy of the letter he wrote my mom about”phone calls” which the ONLY way he could make would be on a smuggled contraband cell phone, which due to the recent event of a prisoner on DEATH ROW where security is supposed to be at its highest, a prisoner on a smuggled cell phone called a Texas official and cursed him out. LOL So I am hoping at least that my son will be transferred to another prison to get him away from the access he obviously has to a phone. He uses his not insignificant electronic skills and his ability to build a solder iron out of an electric cord and a pencil to solder the wires to hide a cell phone inside any electric appliance. I don’t doubt that he has used that ability to hide one for someone else who in exchange lets him use it once in a while. If he’s transferred, then he will have to make new connections in a new prison, though he has been moved around enough he usually has “old pals” just about anywhere they send him now.

Good luck on your deposition, Star!!! I’ll keep you in my thoughts and prayers. TOWANDA!!!


Thank you, Indi and OxD. I will touch base some time afterward to let you all know how it went. Indi, I will wear my snake ring for good luck.

OxD, it just amazes me that we spend so much money to keep a murderer in prison, and yet the prison system is not smart enough to figure out how to keep cell phones out of the prison? I don’t get it. Sounds like you’re doing what you can behind the scenes. I’m certainly glad you’re feeling safer. I know when you’re relaxed and not in fight-or-flight reaction, you will probably make sounder decisions. Hopefully, the TH-P has better things to do this time around. I still think a tall chain link fence is not a bad idea……..


Oh, Indi, to answer your question, I can put a user on “ignore” but I still see their name when they post. I don’t even want to see or hear his name.

Ox Drover

Dear Star,

An electronic security outfit and a gun is more effective than a chain link fence! He knows that we have both! Personally, I thik that is the only reason my X-BF-P didn’t try to burn MY house like he did the GF prior to me. LOL

Oh, I heard from my friend that the X-BF-P got married a couple of months ago. My reaction was to feel sorry for the woman, she just doesn’t know what she has gotten herself in for. He has NEVER been faithful to a single woman he has been with—he cheated on his first wife for 32 years, even on his GFs that he had during that time with other women…each on thinking she was the “special” one….LOL I am just glad that “happy bride” wasn’t me, because I know the pain she is in for down the road when she catches him, and she will.


OxD, I’m glad you have some safety precautions in place. I’m not sure what a security outfit is. Sounds attractive! lol Yes, these cheaters just carve a path of pain and destruction everywhere they go. Did you read that the army investigators came here this morning? I posted about it on two other threads here.

Ox Drover

Dear Star,

The security “outfit” is an electronic security system on my house and farm that notifies us of intruders (or cows out of the pasture LOL). We also intend to upgrade this in the near future as well to cover more area.

I am cautious, but now that I have overcome the INITIAL SHOCK of the parole board doing stuff “under the radar” I am more calm about it now, just cautious, not terrified. I am noticing about myself that “sudden things” effect me more than they did before, but I also am getting my head back on straight “quicker” than I was in the worst of the chaos so I am regaining better control over my emotions and reactions than I had in the recent past, but still not “perfect” by a long shot, but VASTLY improved.

The old saying about “a coward dies 1000 deaths, the brave man but one,” is true, I am not going to “die a 1000” deaths by living in terror. My sons at first were going to do a day shift and a night shift, with one of them awake at all times, and I told them both, if you want to do that, then we will pack up and LEAVE HERE. I am not going to live in terror and neither are you. Because if we have to do that we are not sufficiently safe to live here, so you guys make up your minds how you want to live. The TH-P is only 40 years old and my P-son is 37, so they have potentially long lives ahead of them and I won’t live like that the rest of my life and I don’t want you living that way either.

We have a reasonable security system, and we are all trained and armed in small weapons use and have adequate fire power available, so we either move to where we KNOW absolutely we are “safe” (as much as anyone can be) or we go on with our lives in caution, but not terror or hypervigilent.

One of the things I learned over all this is that STUFF or a home, or a place, none of that is really important. I would be MORE happy living in peace in a tent or on the street homeless rather than be living in a palace in fear and chaos.

I also learned that material things are not “security” at all. No matter how financially “secure” you are, you can always lose it in the blink of an eye. Just as no matter how healthy you are you can lose that in the blink of an eye as well. OUr “security” has to be from within and not depend on external things, however valuable those external things are.

The Bible tells us to “lay up treasures for yourself …where moth and rust and thives” can’t get to it. On this earth,, the only way you can lay up those treasures for youself is WITHIN yourself, not depending on anyone else or anything else. Though I loved my late husband dearly, and he loved me, nevertheless I depended too much on him for my happiness. He didn’t deliberately die to hurt me or leave me alone, but that’s what happened. He died, he left me alone without sufficient “treasures” within myself to maintain myself and that vulnerability was what made me fall for the P-XBF.


OxD, you are the female equivalent to Clint Eastwood (who is one of my all-time favorites.) Do you ever watch any of his old movies? I was picturing the security outfit as bulletproof longjohns with metal plates in them for deflecting knives. LOL. Your house actually sounds very safe.

Your comment about how quickly you are bouncing back from traumatic events reminds me of a poster I saw years ago. It was a wise Hindu guru standing in a yoga posture on a surfboard. He was standing on one leg, while holding the other one up in a yoga posture with his hands in prayer position. The surfboard was on a large wave in the ocean. The caption said “You can’t stop the waves, but you can learn how to surf”. This was such a profound way of saying we cannot control all the bad things that may happen to us in life. But we can learn how to manage our responses to them. I think you have done well in your life. You are an example to me of triumphing over extreme adversity. There are so few role models for people like me because most people who grow up in such an abusive environment end up dead, in jail, or in a mental institution. Or just dying of a drug OD.


StarG: I think that’s why they go to such extremes what they do to us … hoping we end up in mental institutions, in jail or drop dead of a heart attack.

Smile … Thanks for sharing the poster story. I’ll remember it.

Surfs up, hang 10!


Wini et al,
This actually turned out to be a great day. After the deposition, I was very nervous about giving a massage to a nearby chiropractor for the first time. What if she didn’t like the massage? She’s probably had lots of good ones. Also, I do my massages in my living room, which can seem not very professional. Well…..she said I was very good, and she wants to trade on a regular basis. She also talked about a lot of her clients she wants to refer. Woohoo!!!!! This means more income for me. She felt one of my massages was worth more than one chiropractic adjustment. She also wants to give me an aqua chi foot bath AND a chiropractic adjustment for every massage. The foot bath actually removes toxins from your body and leaves you feeling very energized. I wanted to get one every week, but couldn’t afford it. This all makes me very happy and builds my confidence in my chosen career.

This event was so much more important to me than what happens to the pathological liar I turned in to the army.

Ox Drover

Dear Star,

Nah, you wouldn’t mistake me for Clint Eastwood’s movie characters, I look more like Granny Clampett than Eastwood! LOL My P-son does call me “Osama, my mama” though! He said it joking, but I am sure he meant it as what I call “kidding on the square” where you say something nasty to someone that you MEAN, but you laugh like it is a big joke, so even though you meant what you said, they can’t get mad, cause if they do you just say, “Ah, get your panties out of your crack, I was just kidding.” LOL

My husband used to have a narcissistic jerk friend that I despised, and he would come over to the house all the time and I did him like that. He KNEW I despised him and the feeling was mutual I know, but I could say anything nasty to him and he couldn’t get “mad” (I know he felt it but couldn’t retaliate) LOL See how “evil” I am! LOL Fortunately, since the day of the memorial service for my husband I haven’t had to put up with the jerk any more.

Congratulations on your massage contact today, that’s my favorite thing in the world. I bought a great professional massage table Sat night at the auction for $50, looked it up on the net and it is retail $329 and is new, in the case, folding, great padding etc. My boys and I trade massages when we can’t afford to get a professional one, so this is great for us. Helps the old back muscles quit spasaming.


OxD, you got a real deal, buying a massage table for $50. I have never seen one less than $200, and mine was about $700 or $800. I used to teach crash courses in massage for couples and family members who were willing to buy their own table. I don’t find too many people who are serious about buying their own table, though.

I’m realizing how easy it is to build up my practice with just the tiniest bit of marketing and networking.

Re: Clint Eastwood. Even he doesn’t look like Clint Eastwood anymore. He’s getting up there in years. I’d still marry him in a second though. Unless of course, Henry comes through first.


Very good article and posts. Thanks Oxy for your detailed insights.

I am about to corner my “rat”. He has no history of violence that I know of, but is very callous. A close freind keeps saying how “brutal” he is. When asked he agreed I could be in physical danger.

But if we live in fear then the terroists win, right?

I am thinking of putting my story, legal papers, backup, and some very very personally embarrassing ( to the rat) documents that I have in a safety deposit box. When I corner him (legally) I plan to let him know about the box. It would likely not protect me if he were to really want to “have me taken care of”, but it would seriously implicate him.

He put me in a place of fear and insecurity for many years. He is counting on the status quo. I plan to show no mercy through the legal system to the extent that I can afford it.

Any thoughts LF’ers?


Eyes Wideopen
Just posted this check my most recent post ! LOVE JJ



No idea about your P, but here is what happened with mine.

He never hit me outright, he only “accidentally” hit me. But after the court case was settled (divorce), he hit me overtly in front of the kids.

What I believe is that during the marriage, he knew that if he ever hit me, I’d leave him. He knew this not because I threatened to leave, but because of general conversations on the topic. For example, in discussing some news story or something I would clearly say something like “If I were her, I’d have left him the first time he hit me.”

I can’t remember how we got on these topics, but I now have suspicions that he brought them up in order to explore just how far he could push me.

He played to the hilt the act of the “devoted” husband and father, right up until the court case. Once he was finished putting on the show for the judge and had the “win” he was after, he hit me. I also have pretty good evidence (photographs and multiple witnesses) that he manhandled our daughter, but she was so caught in his web that she would not admit to anything. (“I have no idea how those marks got on me.”)

My advice to anyone in a similar situation is to trust your instincts. Do you feel that you have to walk on eggshells in order to keep him from exploding with rage? If you’ve been walking on eggshells, that means that you are afraid. Ask yourself what it is you’re afraid of. In a normal relationship, you would not be afraid to disagree with your husband.

Even if his rage has always been verbal, it could easily escalate. I think that part of the reason that my ex was not overtly violent was his need to maintain the image he wanted to project. Once he no longer needed to maintain that image, the violence came out.

I think the type of man who is respected in the community but is also a psychopath does one of 2 things. One option is that he finds a victim that will not talk. This is pretty classic with the rich or powerful man whose wife enjoys the lifestyle he provides her. She doesn’t dare say anything because she fears that she will be on the street if she does. Sometimes the wife in this case has a very high need to appear respectable or stable as a family. Again, she is not likely to say anything. Another type of wife who will not talk is the one who is very religious and believes that her marriage is for life and that she has to make the best of it. Sometimes a woman like this also believes that the man is in charge and that she should be grateful for what he does for her.

In all of the above cases, the man can risk hitting the wife because he has a hold on her.

The second case is where the wife is more independent and he would risk losing her or risk exposure if he hit her. In this case, he may WANT to hit, but he holds back because he fears the consequences. In some ways, this is the more dangerous situation, because the woman doesn’t quite know what he’s capable of. He just seems threatening in a not very well-defined way. With the man who actually hits, his wife has a better idea of what he will do (although I imagine that these guys are capable of escalating, too).

My best advice: Trust your instincts.

Ox Drover

Dear Eyeswideshut,

My P-son is big on REVENGE for anything you have done to him. My P-XBF is also big on REVENGE, he keeps up a front in the community,, but he is sneaky, and he burned down the house of his GF previous to me because she dumped him.

So, there are “ways” they can “get you” even if they don’t overtly appear dangerous. Mine had a good idea how to get the thing you valued most—in her case was her Victorian house which contained all her grandmother’s antiques etc. In my case, he “got me” emotionally with a “zing”—in revenge for the “embarassment” I had caused him.

If you really do put the quash on him, and “hurt” him “where he lives” he in my opinion WILL “get even” in some way.

There is a difference (to us) in JUSTICE vs. REVENGE but to them Justice=revenge so if you make them pay the consequences so that they are “hurt” then they seek revenge against us in SOME way. You can just about count on that with a P. Quite frankly, it is like poking a badger in a corner in some instances and they will come out and BITE YOU.

I know that there is a BIG need in us to get JUSTICE, but at the same time, there is almost always (In MY experience) a PRICE TO PAY. They are “like an elephant, they NEVER FORGET” a slight, a “wrong,” or what they see as you “getting revenge” on them.

Look at OJ Simpson—he had hit his x wife plenty of times, but who would have thought he would have slaughtered her and her friend in a rage? Much less gotten away with it, but he finally did let his rages get him in prison, and frankly, I think it COULDN’T HAVE HAPPENED TO A NICER GUY. LOL

I remember vividly watching the expression of the Trojan Horse Psychopath after he was arrested, sitting in the orange jump suit and chains and jelly flip flops in the court room, smirking, chatting up my DIL who was sitting similarly attired behind him, the hateful looks she would shoot me, and the smirk never leaving his face. It was all a big game to him, and she was enraged that SHE was in jail. Not ashamed of what she had done, just enraged that I had in her estimation “won” and she was caught. (Of course this was her frist time in jail and he had a life time of arrests and incarcerations for long periods of time.)

He wasn’t afraid of jail, or even prison. He knew the system and how to do it, but even getting caught wasn’t a “failure” to him. He had habituated to prison, police and court rooms. He knew how to play the game and as far as he was concerned, even though he was in jail, he had “won” the game by injuring our family, by “stealing” my son’s wife, he was a WINNER in his estimation because he caused us pain and havoc.

During his time in prison he spent it trying to get charges filed on us for various things including mail tampering. He and my DIL even LIED to try to get this accomplished. They weren’t successful, but it wasn’t because they didn’t TRY.

They have NO SHAME, only a desire for REVENGE. So one way or another, many times, they will find a way to get revenge on you for you seeking justice.

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