Recently, there has been some discussion on Lovefraud about the relationship between antisocial behavior and sociopathy as a disorder. It has been argued that antisocial behaviors are learned by some people and so not all people who are antisocial are sociopaths. The idea is that behavior that is learned may not reflect a person’s underlying personality, and can therefore be unlearned. Many people also believe that personality features such as low empathy indicate sociopathy more than does antisocial behavior.
The above issues are important because if pervasive antisocial behavior is reflective of a deeply rooted personality profile as opposed to “social learning” then there are many more “sociopaths” than if there are a large number of antisocials who are really nice loving people underneath all that nasty behavior.
In the past three months there also has been discussion here about sex differences in violent and antisocial tendencies. These two discussions often become one discussion because there are some who believe our society teaches males to be violent and antisocial and that again “social learning” (as opposed to personality features) accounts for sex differences in antisocial behavior.
I am teaching a university course in “The Psychology of Gender” this semester. Due to the lack of good unbiased texts for the class, I am teaching from original research papers. In that context I discovered one of the most amazing books I have ever read. That book is Sex Differences in Antisocial Behavior, by Dr. Terrie Moffitt and colleagues. Anyone who wants to understand sociopaths/psychopaths should read that book. It is well worth the $20.00 – $25.00 price.
The book is not an opinion driven textbook. It is a report of years of very thorough research — The Dunedin multidisciplinary health and development study which prospectively followed about 1500 men and women born between 4/1/1972 and 3/31/1973 in Dunedin, a provincial capital city on New Zealand’s South Island. The book covers the first 21 years of their lives. These individuals have been studied at age 32 and that data is reported in other sources. I obtained all those other sources and will share them with you.
The study collected comprehensive health data on all subjects; antisocial behavior was just one aspect of the research. They collected information every year or two by interviewing parents and teachers; and as the subjects got old enough they completed self-reports and brought friends and romantic partners in for interview. The researchers also accessed government and school records. The assessment tools used were well established valid instruments. They answered the following questions which also have implications for the etiology of antisocial behavior (ASB):
• Do males show increased ASB in all circumstances and in every antisocial activity?
• Are there sex differences in the developmental course of antisocial behavior?
• What is responsible for observed sex differences?
• Does ASB have different consequences for men and women?
In the next few weeks I will summarize and discuss their results in the context of other recent research. If we accept the 1 percent figure for PCL-R psychopathy in their population, we would expect about 15 psychopaths. Antisocial personality disorder has about a 4 percent prevalence rate so we would expect 60 sociopaths based on that figure. Keep that in mind as I go through the findings.
To give you an idea of this comprehensive study here is an outline of the assessments made:
• Teacher reports done at 5, 7, 9, 11 and 13 (Rutter Child Scale)
• Self-reports were done at ages 11, 13, 15, 18, 21 (items included age appropriate antisocial and illegal acts).
• At ages 18 and 21 Study members were asked to nominate a friend or family member who knew them well to answer 4 items (problems with aggression, doing things against the law, alcohol, drug use).
Results
• The smallest sex difference was seen at age 15.
• Sex effect sizes ranged from d=.15 to d=.48 and indicated a small to moderate sex difference.
• The largest age difference in antisocial behavior was at age 21.
• Official records revealed a significant difference between males and females for every variable examined.
• Drug and alcohol use was most similar, but was still more common in males.
When they pooled the data on antisocial behavior they got results similar to those reported by psychopathy researchers including Dr. Robert Hare. These researchers say that “psychopaths” are responsible for a disproportionate amount of violent and property crime in our society. In the Dunedin study most juveniles had broken the law but only a small number of juveniles were responsible for the majority of offending for both males and females. 50% of 64,062 “offenses” in 21 y/o males were reported by only 41 men (8%). 50% of the 23,613 offenses in women were reported by only 27 women (6%). The most active females were less prolific than their male counterparts.
There are several take-home messages given by the researchers:
• Males’ antisocial behavior is more often serious and is more likely to be sanctioned.
• Throughout the first two decades of life males consistently emerge as more antisocial than females with two exceptions.
• Males and females are most similar at age 15.
• Males and females are most similar in alcohol and drug use patterns.
To summarize then the Dunedin study identified a group of antisocial males and females whose pattern of antisocial behavior, beginning early in life resembles that of “psychopaths.” Most psychopathy researchers say that the disorder begins in childhood. The number of antisocial males and females identified by the researchers is very close to the number predicted, but was larger than expected. The researchers also collected personality profiles of all participants, data on intimate partner violence perpetration and data on whether subjects qualified for the diagnosis of conduct disorder. Kids with conduct disorder are considered to be “psychopaths in the making.” I will share those results with you in the next weeks.
It’s been a while since I have been on here. And it certainly seems to have been taken up a notch or two in sophisitication since then!
Odd that I am in bad shape as I face the endthroes of the damage my sociopath set in place for me almost 3 and 1/2 years ago! While these folks are excellent at setting traps it saddens me that others who are supposedly healthy and not sociopaths are so willing to “pull the trigger” upon behalf of the sociopath!
In part, I think this might be because I am a male and we have the stereoptype that only males are sociopathic. Much of the literature that offended the Women’s Movement and Feminism in our country has been supressed. For instance, there was a study in the 70’s out of Texas that demonstrated females started physical violence as often or more often than males although females did less damage.
Even terms that offended feminsim have been supressed from the DSM, such as neurotic and sadist & masochist, that were useful.
Furthermore, I think that mixing Antisocial Personality Disorder with Sociopaths is dead ended, not merely counterintuitive. The idea that “all of them” are sociopaths belies the true differences and the amazing depth of a real sociopath.
Surely Hervey Cleckley wrote a ground breaking book but it was eclipsed circa 2004 by Martha Stout.
As I purused the comments, the one that stands out is that one advising one to dwell upon what we still have, what is positive. Sadly, I seclude. I find it hard to trust anyone. And I am at my wits end–frazzled from wear of fighting for three years.
As far as Manson, the scuttlebutt is he was the product of Boy’s Town and a lot of abuse including sexual. Manson claimed to have burried four semi-trucks full of weapons on the west side of Death Valley for the time when our society collaspses to arm his troops for “Helter Skelter.”
It is kind of scary that so many seemingly disconnected things in the past are coming together–at the time of the undoing of our country by another class of sociopaths!
Dr Leedom,
Two thirds of women score as “feeling” on the MBTI while only one third of men do. I’m curious how much women are hardwired differently from birth or how much moral reasoning ability is learned from culture and experience. Does physical size and strength impact moral reasoning ability? Or is the level of testosterone more important, accounting for the gentle giants and nasty midgets we’ve all encountered?
Female sociopaths were less than 1/3 of the total I’ve encountered (or discovered), and preferred using shadowy ’Dragon Lady’ skills like carefully crafted planned manipulations, rather than the overt bullying males often use.
Matt said: I grew up with a N mother, a S father and a conman brother who is a S
Holy crap, Batman! I bow down to your survival skills. And how did they manage to get along, or did they? My coworker SS has a narcissistic husband, and as far as I can tell, they must have an open marriage agreement, or they quietly cheat on each other and any conflict remains behind closed doors. Or maybe their mutual addiction to power and materialism is the glue in that marriage? Rumors of infidelity have circulated around both those two for years yet they remain together.
S O S
Question: What do you get when you mix an N, an S and a conman S together?
Answer A: my family.
Answer B: an unholy mess.
My personal take on interactions between cluster Bs is all ruled by power. Also, it can generally be quantified by money — who’s got it and who needs it.
My parents have a marriage made in hell. The devaluing and discarding have survived multiple trips through divorce court and continue to this very day.
One therapist I saw said they can’t live with each other and can’t live without each other. I personally believe neither wanted to give up one nickel to the other in the property settlement.
That’s not to say they didn’t use their kids against each other.Along with careers, outside interests and whatever else popped into their fevered little brains.
My brother uses my parents to foot his bills, foot his family’s bills, the works. He uses anything he can for leverage — including using his own kids. Then he plays divide and conquer with my parents. Ditto how he handles his siblings. His problems become everyone’s problems.
I look at the parental dynamic and the dynamic in this troika and the interfamily dynamic and now it seems so clear how S worked me over. Too bad I didn’t see it before S – it would have saved me a lifetime of grief.
Something good always comes from something bad… in Matts family, the Answer clearly is….
Anser A: MATT
Matt,
At the risk of sounding like a broken record, you missed your calling–stand up comedy. lol
Dear Jim,
Some how I didn’t see your Monday 6 a.m. post until just now, LOL. You are so cute! Mount Fat or Hairy or my soap box! I love it. Yea, I do get on the soap box a bit, I’m sorry to say. Sometimes it is so frustrating to see a situation in what I THINK is such a clear light and to feel like “Joan the Baptist, crying in the wilderness” LOL
How come the people in power can’t see that throwing money to AIG so they can give big bonuses to their executives that ran the company into the ground DOESN’T “MAKE SENSE” TO ANYONE EXCEPT THE EXECUTIVES AND THEIR POLITICAL CRONIES. Sheesh! Where is Thomas Jefferson when you need him!
Wow, Matt. I have a con-man in-law who’s good at sucking money out of my sub-narcissistic father, by being the worshipful ’perfect son’ which I could never be, and with some clever manipulation on his part he gets my aged father to focus on using my other sister and myself as gophers. But on a sociopathic scale of 1 to 10 I’d rate them a 7 or 8. I guess there’s always somebody else who’s had it worse than I, yet came out better. That might be a good study in itself ”“ how people survive so well.
I thought SOP for sociopaths was hooking up with (into) somebody they could control. Every S+ mated couple I’ve known except for that one marriage looks like a master ”“ slave relationship.
That unusual couple, I’d bet that behind closed doors the whole thing’s really an “unholy mess.” My wife went to a birthday party for their 5 year old son, back when we were still ’friends’. Lots of expensive decorations and gifts, balloon clown magician, the works. After what should have been a kid’s dream party she said the birthday boy became uncontrollable and screamed at everybody “GET OUT OF MY HOUSE! I HATE YOU ALL!” repeatedly, to the amazement of everyone. I’d never heard of such a thing. The last time I ever visited, SS screamed at him for stapling mismatched school carnival decoration pairs together and forced him to redo them all, “NOW! Or else.” I thought she was overreacting to a standard dumb kid mistake. But in hindsight, he may have done it on purpose just to piss her off, and a power struggle ensued.
She has a girl, who is quite bright and spends a lot of time in school sports and at the community center nearby. She’s a cross country champ, though she doesn’t seem to be naturally built for it. Maybe that’s how she survives.
Dear SOS,
Sandra Brown, a therapist, had on her blog an article she called “Gasoline and fire” relationships where BOTH parties are personality disordered, and many of those relationships are EXPLOSIVE! I thought that was really a great “label” for them. Though I have seen some that were C4 and Nitro! LOL
My XDIL played the “sweet caregiver” to my egg donor after I started to set boundaries—XDIL “controlled” egg donor by being super sweet! Just before she took off with egg donor’s money! Yea, they play whatever angle they need to to get what they want!
You know I’d so love to devise and plant a microphone transmitter or recorder at that house just to see what keeps those two together.
“Sandra L. Brown, M.A., CEO, The Institute, Psychotherapist and Author”?
Oxy/Jim… Im off to the county courthouse today. Suspect its going to be a long day. Have lots to accomplish and also want to check out my options for prelminary background checks for when Im ready to test the waters again. This time Ill be prepared to swim with the sharks and not get eaten alive!!!! Jim…not sure when youre traveling abroad, but hope youre wearing the kilt on the airplane to start your vacation the proper way! Have a great trip! Dont forget to kiss the Blarney Stone for me while youre there – has something to do with increasing luck with acquiring less confusing speech!! 🙂
Have a good day everyone! Stay positive and stay strong!! NC!!