As many of us have painfully learned, before sociopaths dump one victim, they usually have already targeted another. In the following letter, a Lovefraud reader asked what she should do about the new victim:
I am finally away from the sociopath, although he still continues to contact me from time to time demanding money. He has a new target—as always, a financially secure woman, vulnerable and he has “given her a shoulder to cry on.” Her father just died, her mother has cancer and she stands to inherit some valuable land and she is already “hooked” thinking that he is “so caring” and “has been there for her and she for him.” He has told her I left him took all his money, etc.—the same story I got 10 years ago.
I’d like to be selfish in this, and just let him wander on to the new target, which means he will leave me entirely alone, but I feel so bad knowing he is going to ruin the life of a naive, vulnerable woman. My predecessor told me she “thanked God every day that I came along,” and part of me wants to do the same and let him “move on,” but I feel somewhere I should warn this woman. Had my predecessor told me everything she eventually told me, things would have been a lot different. I lost everything, including my social standing, my reputation, my integrity and self respect, not to mention my company and all my assets through his wild spending and lying about “business deals” and his abilities.
My question is this: Should I contact the other woman and tell her what I know? Or can I just “mind my own business” and let nature take its course. I wish someone had told me what I was facing.
Try to warn
This is a question I’ve heard many times. Should you warn the next victim?
In my opinion, if you can do it safely, I think you should try.
If you believe the predator fits the description of a sociopath, it may help to describe him or her that way. When people realize there is a personality disorder called sociopathy, and the disorder has distinct symptoms, it may make the warning more effective.
For example, if you said, “the guy (or woman) will cheat on you and take your money,” the next target, having already been told by the predator that you’re a disgruntled lover, may assume that you’re just bitter.
But if you said, “I believe the guy (or woman) is a sociopath, and to learn more about the disorder you should read Lovefraud.com,” maybe the person will go to the Internet, look up the behaviors and then recognize the symptoms.
Will the new victim listen?
The key question, of course, is will the new target heed your warning? We all know how good sociopaths are at flattery, soliciting pity and manipulation. The sociopath has already told the new target about all the terrible things you did to him or her. The sociopath may have the new target partially or totally brainwashed. Your words may or may not get through.
Still, you know what will happen to the new target. You know the pain and devastation the predator will inflict. You know what you’ve been through, and you don’t want to wish it on anyone.
In my view, you should try to prevent another casualty. But what do you think?
Should you try? Do you think the new victim will listen? Did someone try to warn you? Did you listen?
Please post your views on the Lovefraud Blog.
When my son went to prison he was openly definant and mouthy, like most teenagers only X 100, but as the years in prison have gone on, he hasn’t changed for the better or lightened his violence, just learned to be a better fake to some people. He learned to pretend to have a conscience, to repent and “see the light” but it was totally fake. The letters he wrote to my mother (who was sending him money) were all full of “Christian love and light” and “insight” but in reading them I can see that he took a great many of his phrases from ME…and also he does have a good knowledge of the Bible that he learned as a child in sunday school.
His ability to twist things, and appear “repentent” and so on, has vastly improved. I think too, that his impulse control has improved as well. He is better able to make “long term plans” and complex ones. His latest effort to have me killed was very complex, but actually, well thought out…it was just that the execution of it by his buddy-psychopath was flawed. That guy didn’thave the impluse control or the ability to delay gratification until the plan fully succeeded, and catching him in a lie did give me a clue. I unfortunately, decided to give him a “second chance” which was totally dumb on my part, but at least I am NOW able to say that I now have ZERO tolerance for anyone who lies to me. PERIOD.
So, at least I have learned something from the chaos, and am probably much better off for it. I think I was so thick into the FOG that only something DRASTIC would have snapped me out of it. I still spend six horrible months freaked out by the “crazymaking” that the several Ps were doing, and the malignant enabling that my mother was engaging in in order to “protect” her “Golden Child” P-grandson from the consequences of his behavior. Unfortunately, even KNOWING and having proof of his intentions, his lies, etc. she is still IN THE FOG, because to admit that it was ALL A LIE, or that he had EVIL intentions, would destroy her whole entire world, so she clings tightly to the FOG. I am also NC with her. It was also a matter of “emotional life or death” and I chose to live. I no longer feel an “obligation” to put up with any malignant behvior on anyone’s part, whether they gave birth to me, or I gave birth to them.
I was finally able to look at my entire dysfunctional upbrining and realize that the “role” of “family enabler” was assumed by my mother at her mother’s death. The difference though is that my mother is a very ACTIVE enabler where my grandmother was a passive one, keeping secrets for the Ps. Primarily her son. My mother on the other hand will actively punish you if you do not go along with the “family program” of protecting the Ps from the consequences of their actions, all in the name of “Christian forgiveness”
I have also rethought and changed my concept of God and Christianity. I no longer swallow my mother’s interpretation that in order to “forgive” someone who had done something horrible toyou, that you must let them back inside your “circle of trust.” I see now that forgiveness is not for the other person, but for you, it is rooting out the bitterness from your own heart, but has NOTHING to do with letting that untrustworthy person back into your life or your circle of trust.
No, they will not magiclly grow a conscience, and at best I thinkk that they learn more “socially acceptable” fake masks, but their intentions are the same. My son is really good at the fake mask, but the last time I visited him, he was frustrated at me, and dropped the mask for maybe a full minute and I saw the LOOK in his eyes that was just like “looking into the eyes of Satan”—the same look that is in the eyese of Charlie Manson in a photograph that has been widely published. The same look of utter rage I saw on my P-bio-father’s face when I defied him, the same lookk of utter rage and contempt when I caught my “perfect Christian mother” lying to me, and then, before she had time to swallow that lie, calling ME A LIAR.
When I saw my son’s eyes, and heard him BRAG about how much more horrible his crime of murder was than the cops really knew and he said to me “If you knew how horrible it really was, you wouldn’t like me so much” I realized totally and completely that he was capable of anything and that there was NO awareness, no caring in him, and that he actually GLORIED in his crimes. It was over 8 months after I saw this, that his plot fell through and his Trojan horse P was arrested, along with my DIL who was recruited into the plot after it started.
After my mother was “forced” to go NC with my P-son in prison by his brother, who told her that if she sent another $ to the son in prison that he would also go NC with her, leaving her not one blood relative that would talk to her except the P-grandson in prison. She has complied except for twice, but she knows that if she is again caught in a lie, that there will be no more reprieves from total family NC.
Her greatest wish was that he would get out of prison before she died. That is not likely given that it is 3 more years before he comes up for parole and at that time both his brother and I will be there begging the parole board NOT to let him out. I think that there is a good chance that they will listen to us. He has had many rules infractions while he has been in prison, so doesn’thave a great record for following the rules even inside prison, plus, he will have NO support from family on the outside when he gets out and has no friends except the ones he has met in prison.
Since mom is no longer communicating with P son he has written letters to everyone he knows on the outside that might call us and find out what is going on. He is desperate to reestablish contact (and get money from) my mother. He knows that the rest of us will not respond, but because she has not responded except those two times, he is up the prison creek without a paddle with no outside money being sent in. He is writhing over the hot fire of NC and NO MONEY.
Jules:
When my S left (after I found out about his affair) he said he needed to “find himself” and he implied that he wanted to live alone. However, when this affair didn’t pan out (he had offered to loan/give her $10K, I listened to the voicemail), move her car and furniture her from across the country, and had purchased her a plane ticket) he then put himself on several dating sites. I found out about the affair 9/3. He still had his possessions physically in my house until 9/15 (but did not return except to move out), and on 10/11 he had a NEW woman in Vegas and they lived together shortly thereafter. He spent NO TIME ALONE. None. He was immediately hunting prey, immediately identified his next victim, and had an immediate (exclusive) relationship. He IMMEDIATELY began a new relationship, and still is with her (because she’s buying him an expensive house, so he’s being quite attentive at the moment, I imagine).
Yes, you are immediately disposable, and I believe they do not think of us at all after discovery, except with scorn. They will say terrible things about you (us) we are psycho b’s, we are vindictive, manipulative, we want them back, we are crazy. They will poison their new victims against us, “we” are the reason they left us, we weren’t enough. We weren’t pretty enough, smart enough, we didn’t “understand” them enough. No matter what we did, no matter how pretty, smart, loving, concerned, supporting, tolerant, and kind…we weren’t “enough”. And then they convince the new victim that THEY are the love they have been waiting for.
Have you read “You Think You are So Special” by Heartless Bitches? I will put on the link. I’m sure it has been on Lovefraud before. But this is what they tell the new victim, so they are predispositioned, preprejudiced NOT TO BELIEVE US, and NOT TO BELIEVE THE TRUTH. The new victims believe the lie. Because they have been told the lie, AND BECAUSE THEY WANT TO BELIEVE THE LIE. Like we did. We wanted love, and trust, and kindness, and respect, we wanted what we thought they gave us. We had HOPE. That is what is most damaging, they destroy the TRUST in us, the trust in humanity. Here is the link, it’s an interesting read.
http://www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/manipulator/special.shtml
Sociopaths cannot tolerate detection. They cannot tolerate that crack in the mirror. They must view themselves as the perfect beings they are not.
It has become evident to me that they do give us “clues” but we, in our initial ignorance or lack of understanding that they are diseased, do not understand the clues. It is only in reflection that we can “see” the true meaning and implications behind their words.
Mine always has a cover. We (the kids and I) were his cover. His daughter (either she is a S also or in complete denial) is also his cover. He has one friend…can you believe 54 years old and only one friend? that is his cover.
LilOrphan:
I agree with you that true love is palpable. At least I hope so, and I aspire to that. My S was not the most handsome man I ever dated (although he was buff and had a great body), and he was the least educated man I have ever dated (he dropped out of high school at 15 because he got his girlfirend pregnant). He was very distinguished looking, and very gentlemanly. Also, he was VERY SMART, very adept at business, and particularly at lying, cheating, and fraud. Extremely convincing. But these personal attributes (looks) were insignificant because I just wanted a GOOD man, an HONEST man. And I believed he was. I believed the lie.
It is fascinating that the spaces for the name fit. Amazing, isn’t it, how there is so much interconnectedness? So much commonality?
I do not recall my S saying he “got you to believe him”, but he became increasingly emotionally distant, withholding seemingly love, affection, and (yes, sex) to have power over me.
He also used to say “NUNYA” a lot, meaning “none of your business”. He’d reveal something to me, then I’d ask a question or make a suggestion and it was always, “NUNYA”. I’d say, “why do you tell me/ask me these things if you don’t want an answer”. NUNYA.
He also said many times, “life is a game of chess” and I’ve read this analogy somewhere, that everyone, to a Sociopath, is a chess piece, to be used by them, or moved by them, or controlled by them. Only once did we play chess…and guess what, I won. Bet he hated that.
Julies, I am increasingly coming to believe that these guys ARE aliens, or cut from the same cloth, or the same cookie cutter cloth, or as you suggest, reading from the same P script. When I saw him for the first time in 3 months at a court hearing (I went in support of his ex-wife), it seemed like the man I had loved was gone, and an ALIEN had invaded his body, it was so insane. I can toally relate to that. It is so bizarre, it is almost unbelieveable. It certainly does make one shudder. By the way, I am putting my e-mail address if you want to compare notes…
I agree with all of your analogies that they do get worse with age, but they just learn how to hide their sickness more effectively. They become better Sociopaths, if you will. Ooh, what a terrifying thought.
Ariadne, it’s creepy what you said about your socio stepmother, who is “just as devious and awful as ever, but she has learned a little more impulse control, making her even scarier”.
OxDrover, I always appreciate your insights and your candidness, I find it very interesting and insightful to read your posts.
Peggy Pseu
peggywhoever@yahoo.com
It definitely is like an “alien” has invaded their body and taken over their soul. LOL Like some Grade B sci-fi movie, they look the same but they have become EVIL, not the person that we loved, (which was a fiction).
I think it is only when we fully realize that the “body” may still be animated but the “soul” that we thought was there is GONE. That is difficult to do, but I think itis the only way to come to some kind of closure.
OxDrover:
You are right. It’s difficult to contemplate, but they are like aliens, and they have no soul.
Someone on Lovefraud mentioned the word “gaslighting” and I was not familiar with it. In googling it, I found the following websites which I found interesting:
http://www.googobits.com/articles/p0-2446-inside-the-mind-of-an-abuser-what-you-need-to-know.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting
Yea I hadn’t heard about that word either, but it is apparently well known, I first heard it on a blog about Ns. Since I have become familiar with it though I have actually heard people use it in conversation and I guess I never noticed it before.
It is very descriptive though of the “crazy making” that goes on with Ps and Ns.
I got so “crazy” I felt like I was going around like “Henny Penny” screaming “the sky is falling, the sky is falling” and no one wanted to listen to me!
The odd thing I realized too is that our “reality” (knowing that what we see is real not illusion) is almost totally dependent on validation from others of the same situation.
I’ll give you something that you and a friend can do to prove this. Two of you are in a room with a third, and both of you begin to claim you are hot. It won’t be long before your third friend will start to “feel hot”—that is a “parlor” trick, but there are lots of things like that–tell someone they look sick and before long they feel sick, tell them they look good and they will feel well, etc.
My kids used to tease me about being “deaf” (hard of hearing) by moving their mouths like they were talking when of course they weren’t. That one was easy to catch on to, but there are others that take some real concentration to figure out what is “real” and “what isn’t”—the Ps do that to us, and then tell us we are crazy and if you get enough of this, you start to fall for the gaslighting. Alfred Hitchcock had a show like that once (back in the days of B&W TV). Where the man was sawing small slivers off his wife’s chair and when she complained that it was seeming to get “shorter” convincing her she was crazy. etc.
We give up our independence to determine reality when we allow people to tell us what our thinking is, what our intentions are, that our behavior is inappropriate—and though our gut knows that it isn’t true, we finally succumb to the pressure and agree that, yes, we are off base…it is humbling to realize that all the intelligence in the world won’t protect you from that if you give over your power.
Of course the opposite of that side of the coin is that we hang on to delusions or “wrong” ideas well past having the truth proven to us…so listening to others isn’t 100% bad, but we still have to give ourselves some credit for intuition and rational thought. I know at a point or two I was beyond rational thought…but NC gave me the peace and seclusion away from the crazy-making to get my head out of my posterior and realize that I was right, and if no one else believed the “sky was falling” that was their problem, I was going to SEEK SHELTER from the “incoming.” As it turned out the P’s set their own pants on fire and it turned out I was proven right and but they might have succeeded in sucking in my mom and my son C for a life time. Some Ps do have life-long victims that only the death of the P sets free.
I personally know one woman who endured 49 years with her P before she finally left him. Even then her children were very angry at her for “mistreating” dad so badly. At least she is having PEACE IN HER TWILIGHT YEARS.
Whoa, OxDrover, I guess it is easy to con/manipulate and that people usually want to go “with the crowd”.
Have you seen a specific list of phrases S/N/P’s use, here or on a website?
That’s why “advertising works” because everyone wants to dress like, smell like, and drive the car like the others in the herd.
Yes, I have seen the list and I actually could have written it from my kid’s phrases, or my X-BF’s. LOL
I guess one of the “worst” parts for me what realizing that while I am “smart” I am just as easily conned as the next victim. That all my smarts aside, and all my “independence” and “thinking for myself” didn’t mean diddly squat when it came to my behavior. I just “thought” I was “smarter than the average bear”—LOL
But I am trying to turn lemons into lemonade and learn and grow from the experience, not just with Ps but with all my relationshps as well.
I realize that people who have not had “intimate” experiences with Ps may not believe a word I might say about them, but that is not my responsibility to “save” them. We can only “save” ourselves.
peggy; thanks so much i am so glad you understand me and i understand you. its easter i am feelin a bit down i started to see him around this time of year. and i know he will be taking the new victim to his mothers as they always do on good friday. you know what is so sick the new girl i saw a photo and she looks just like me. anyway a bit lonely and down tonight. i loved what you wrote, what do you mean when you said they give us clues and why do you think they do isnt it a bit dangerous for them to do this in case they get caught out. mine is so like yours too he wasted no time in finding a new girl after we broke up. and she was studying the phsycology so i dont know why she did not work him out, she must of had a lot of knowledge more than me in this area? mine too wasnt the best looking guy i have been with nor the smartest or most sucessfull in fact he would come last in most of these lists he was ok looking a bit young looking really for me, but he was into his fitness and had a great body was very attentive and polite and loving and that is what got me i guess. in fact i feel now that he is with the look alike me girl he will be acting out parts of our relationship and probably say the same things i know he uses my words sometimes and my actions too. i dont know why i am so sure of this but i am sure its so. i think they get worse with age cause like we learn about life as we get older they learn about the life of a scoiopath so improve at it and become more scorned by the other woman who have left him for whatever reasons this is true in the case of mine. i saw a movie the other day it was the other boylen girl, about king henry it was a good movie but henry the king was the bigest s path n i have ever heard about in the history books please go see this movie you will know what i mean. in regards to seeing him as a different man after the break up i really did too he was cold towards me unless he wanted something like sex or company even then he was fake he didnt laugh much and we used to laugh all the time he just seemed very unimpressed with me which is complete opposite to when we were togethr as a couple. words he used to say, i can be a mean bastard and yes he now has proved this to me. he would say people always take him the wrong way all his life. he told me his ex was a self righteous bitch and that when she called or text him he said he would get back to her and nevr did. well thats what he did to me aftr we broke up. in the begining he used sex to try and get me addicted to him and i guess he is doing this to the new girl too. he just knew how to make me feel like i was the one and only. and he always said i love you. he was a bit boring though just didnt have that sophistocation some guys have, a bit raw really when we went out to dinner his conversation was a bit limited i really noticed it when we ate out like that. he also liked danger, before i knew him he was a fire twirler , a person who juggles with fire which i see as a bit dangerous, he also dabbled in drugs but not when we met before that. just seemd to like things like that also liked horror films some that i would not watch. just a bit different there. and when i found out some of the daring things he did behind my back i think it takes some guts to take risks like that not many people do that. he aslo seems to shoot a bit high and go for woman who are better than him either financially ther family has money or they have money or a better job or just a better person in general, he grew up in a council flat with his mother and she still lives there so i get the feeling he does this to improve himself or his life. once when we had a fight he said to me crying you should leave me your too good for me. well he was dead right there. when i found him out, and when he thought i had lied to him he went from being totally in love and talking a bout babies and our future to telling me i am not the right person for him. he gave me a birthday card two weeks prior to leaving me saying happy birthday a nd looking forward to spending many more with you. i dont understand how they can go so completely against us after claiming to love us so much. even if i break up with someone who i have lived with shared my life with that person is still someone i regard as special and i would hold some feelings for them even if not still in love i have exes i feel like that about , so how do they so completely wipe us out of their mind. or is it just a n act to hurt us more he was into acting and said he wanted to be an actor, so funny i should have told him darling you already are the best actor around. also this is funny a nd a bit out there but he copies me and things i do , he visited me one day and i had this new tiolet freshner i had found and it smelled really nice then later on when i visited him he had gone and bought the exact one it was there in his toilet i noticed when i used the bathroom, but he never mentioned it till i did then he had no reaction, like a friend would say yeh i got the same one, he said nothing of the sort. i think they feel like it is ok to copy us and take bits of us without even saying anything i really felt this after that day i visited him. would still like to hear from any of the doctors here if they agree with us and think this disease gets progressively worse with age and time. ok will check out your link i think i may have before but will have alook also thnks for your email add. thanks so much love reading your stuff we are on the same road i think.
Peggy – thanks for the detailed response. The Nunya part was him, too. He would outright deny an answer to my question, early on, if he felt it involved his secret other life or exposure of any kind.
Then, as things went along, it got even crazier. Or rather, he did. He would not answer ANY question if he thought I really cared to know the answer. Not because it might be controversial (he knew I don’t judge people for their personal belief system on big issues) but because he ENJOYED frustrating me. Case in point: I mentioned someone I knew wanting to help me switch careers and what her field was. He made a sound like “uh oh.” Naturally, I asked him what he was feeling about the idea that caused him to say “uh oh.” He wouldn’t respond!! I even asked him “Who does that?” Who partially expresses an opinion and then won’t commit to it?
Who does that, and everything else we described? A psychopath.
I see now that these parlor tricks are their way of trying to drain the residual NS out of you. It’s all attention-seeking, infantile behavior. Reminded me of my kids when they were really small sing-songing “I’ve got a SECRET!” with a big smile. They didn’t have a secret. They had a need to get your attention and no earthly clue how to engage at any level higher than that of a very small child.
Thing is, mine wasn’t particularly convincing, or particularly smart. He had that word salad problem where he’d use the wrong word that sounded like the right word but was utterly, sometimes comically, inappropriate. More than once I had to try hard to swallow my liquid or not show that what he said was glaringly hilarious and out-of-context.
As Jules mentioned, like hers, mine was, well, boring. It was the emptiness inside him, I think. He was mildly conversant on current events but never with any depth or analysis. Just presentation – like “this happened or that happened” but never anything about what it meant in the larger context of life.
The few times he did try to express any emotional thought, it was either like he was recounting someone else’s feelings, totally obviously not emotionally invested in the feeling himself, or just a bunch of gobbledygook words that couldn’t be interpreted with any literal meaning.
So strange. I even came across a dating ad on a local site that sounds like him – grammatically incorrect, full of mistakes, couched in flowery language, with a false feel — but has absolutely no interpretable meaning. Would bet it was his!
Orphan and Jules, I think part of the Nunya is that they like to give “half answers” or “mystery parts” so that you will be curious and INTERESTED in them.
My son somehow got into contact with women on the outside who knowingly wrote to prisoners (boy, talking about women who set themselves up for a fall!) Men, too, but that is another story. Anyway, I came into possession of a letter he wrote to one of them when he accidentally mailed it to me instead of her.
He was trying to “impress” her (now keep in mind that even at age 37 he has been IN PRISON all except a few months since he was 17 so his actual experience with women is ZILCH) He was trying to make her think he had had many relationships on the outside (he has been in prison continuously for 17 years) and being the big “mystery” man.
We recently had a “scandal” hit the newspapers here about a convict woman, who was 57, very obese, been in prison for many years, writing to various men (many at a time) and sending photos of young women, promising undying love for these men, telling them she was going to get out soon and come live happily ever after with this man that had “saved” her, SEND MONEY. This woman was making over $50,000 PER YEAR from conning these men.
Online dating is just as good a scam for these people as well. But even in a jail cell they continue to con, exploit and hurt others for their own gain, all the while laughing at their victims.
It was interesting to me that I read a book written by the Minister who baptized Jeffrey Dahlmer after his arrest. The minister wrote this book thinking that he had ACTUALLY reached Jef and then when Jef was murdered in prison, it turned out that there were letters in his cell to 14 different women who he was writing to and promising undying love to.
It is obvious to me that the whole “baptism” thing and his “conversion” was simply a sham that allowed him to pull another con on some good intentioned but gullible man. It was simply ENTERTAINMENT to a man who had no other entertainment while in a solitary cell in prison. The minister, even at the conclusion of his book, and finding out about the letters to the women, was still not convinced that Jeff was a total fake, and that he did NOT believe a single word of his repentance or his “conversion” to Christianity. He (the minister) just couldn’t see a “motive” in Jeff’s “conversion” if it wasn’t TRUE. Of course this man’s motive was to save Jeff’s soul and he WANTED to believe that he had saved one of the worst killers in our times. That was the minister’s FANTASY and Jeff hung it out there to HOOK the man into the drama.
Apparently some of the 14 women were so distraught that Jeff had been lying to them that they “lost it” completely when they found out that there were 13 others he was also promising undying love to. (shake head here and sigh)
In rereading my son’s “pious” letters a while back I realized that so many of the phrases and platitudes that he used were mirrored back from me. Almost word for word. I could also see the “word salad” as well as the “But Mom, what would Jesus do?” At the time he first sent them to me, they were what I WANTED to hear, but looking back I realize how shallow they were and if I had not been in the FOG I would have seen through them easily. Now they are almost funny!
Reading those letters to me and my mother, and then reading the ones he wrote to his Trojan-horse P telling him how to manage us (and boy was he right on!)
My X DIL even wrote several “apology” letters (they actually sounded good) to my mother and my son for what she had done to them, YET, I know that those letters are FAKE, not because I can read her mind, but because she is still trying to obtain possession of the vehicle which my mom loaned the TH-P the money for, and which loan agreement was torn up by that very same DIL so there would be no “proof” of the loan. This is after getting out of jail on probation herself after 7 months in jail for her part in it all. The TH-P is still in jail.
My mother has filed a lawsuit to obtain title to the vehicle, and I have a feeling it will prevail. In fact, I will break NC with my mother to testify at that court hearing just to see that they are not able to PULL ANOTHER SCAM and profit from the last one in any way.
Even after the attack on my son, where the DIL and the TH-P tried to kill my son, C, and stole $24,000 from my mother (which they had convinced her that she needed to let my DIL “hold” for safety, along with all the important papers and documents of hers) my son C still wanted to believe that his wife was not the one that was the main one that wanted him dead–but with the continued lies and manipulations to obtain the vehicle that she KNOWS is not paid for, he is seeing that SHE is just as personality disordered as her BF. I think that knowledge is allowing him to get on with his own healing more than if he could have a shred of “evidence” that a word she said was true. So far none have been. It is almost unbelievable to him that she could have “faked it” for the 8 years of their marriage. From the first I felt she was deceptive, but the extent of her malice was even a surprise to me! Now, it is just SOP for a P, and is abundantly clear.