Downton Abbey was on TV last night, and Terry and I are among the millions of fans. Last night’s episode (Season 3, Episode 4) ended in tragedy because of behavior that looked so familiar to me.
(Spoiler Alert: The following description gives away the story.)
Lord Grantham’s daughter, Lady Sybil, is about to give birth. Rather than depend on the local country doctor, Dr. Clarkson, Lord Grantham has imported a more socially acceptable obstetrician, Sir Philip Tapsell, to deliver the baby. As the birth approaches, both doctors are in attendance at the estate.
Lady Sybil starts acting incoherently. Dr Clarkson fears that she may be toxemic. He recommends that they rush to the hospital so the baby can be delivered immediately by C-section. Sir Philip insists that nothing is wrong—Lady Sybil is experiencing a normal childbirth. The two doctors argue in front of the entire family and the nature of the argument is why I’m describing the show.
Dr. Clarkson worries that Lady Sybil may be in grave danger, but admits that he doesn’t know for sure. Sir Philip, on the other hand, is totally confident that nothing is wrong. He never wavers. He is pompous in his confidence. He practically sneers at the country bumpkin doctor for being an alarmist, and actually tells him to shut up.
Lord Grantham notes that Dr. Clarkson isn’t sure about the possible danger, whereas Sir Philip is 100% confident that everything is fine. He sides with Sir Philip, and they do not go to the hospital.
Lady Sybil goes into labor and the baby is born. But a short time later, she goes into convulsions and dies.
Argued like a sociopath
Dr. Clarkson was right all along. But Sir Philip spoke with unshakeable self-confidence, unwaveringly certain that he knew best. He argued like a sociopath.
I am not saying that the Sir Philip character is a sociopath. But I am saying that his extreme confidence, his self-righteousness and his hubris are all traits that sociopaths display when they are pushing to get their way.
I write about this in my book, Red Flags of Love Fraud:
How do they do it? How do sociopaths convince you to go along with their agendas, even to your own detriment?
They command it. This is a function of their charisma because they command unflinchingly, with complete self-confidence, they get results. Now, this doesn’t mean sociopaths are always barking orders. Often the commands are delivered on cushions of sweetness, or camouflaged as appeals for sympathy. But in their minds, whatever sociopaths want, they are totally entitled to have. Therefore, when they make their desires known, they show no doubt, only certainty. Compliance is demanded, and targets respond.
Those of us who are not disordered usually aren’t as adamant in expressing our views, opinions or desires. We may think we’re right, but recognize that we could be wrong. We may know what we want, but we’re willing to compromise. So when we come across people who communicate vociferously and forcefully well, we tend to be bowled over. Because of the sheer force of their words, we tell ourselves that they must know what they’re talking about, they’re telling the truth, and they’re right.
My ex-husband’s convincing lies
I’m soon going to be on another TV show I’ll tell you all more when I have details. The producer asked me if I had any more video or audio of my ex, James Montgomery. Well, I found some tapes that I had forgotten about recordings of voice mails, and a recording of our first telephone conversation when I arrived home after leaving him. The tapes illustrate the steamroller tactics with which he argued even when he was lying.
Let me set the scene. James Montgomery swept into my life, portraying himself as a successful entrepreneur. He invited me to be part of his business plans, which, if I could help him get started, were sure to make us fabulously wealthy. He pressured me to lease a car for him it was in my name, and I made all the payments. To feed his unending need for money, I drained my savings and loaded about $60,000 in debt to my previously zero-balance credit cards.
Montgomery also told me he was a member of the Australian military who had heroically served in Vietnam, and still acted as a consultant, particularly on terrorism. He often flew to Florida, telling me he was stopping by MacDill Air Force base in Tampa, home of the Special Operations Command. While there, he was able to get around by borrowing the cars of other military members that were parked at the base.
In December 1998, Montgomery dragged me to Florida, saying he had a contract to open a Titanic show in Orlando. We spent money we didn’t have to move down there. A few weeks later Montgomery admitted he never had a contract. Then, while he was flying to yet another business meeting, I discovered that he had fathered a child with another woman during our marriage. I left Florida, and took the car that he had been driving.
So, here’s part of my conversation with James Montgomery when I was back at my home in New Jersey. (Warning: Contains some profanity.)
Here’s what I know now that I didn’t know during the conversation. My entire marriage was a financial scam. James Montgomery was never in the military. When he travelled to Florida, he was visiting other women including, but not limited to, the mother of the child., who probably owned the car he drove.
Yet listen to how he argued about the car. I was wrong for taking the car back to New Jersey, which inconvenienced him. I was wrong about him using cars from the base. And I was stupidly ignorant about the policy for using military cars. Montgomery was adamant and self-righteous in his argument even though everything he said was a lie.
At the time, the conversation was terribly upsetting. He threw many more accusations and threats at me, which, because of the conviction of his words, made me wonder if he was right.
Later, I discovered that everything he said that day, and practically everything he said during our marriage, was a lie no matter how convincingly the words were stated.
I didn’t know someone could lie with such confidence and conviction. And that’s how I got into the entire mess.
Wow, I had no idea I was also being characterized as a manipulative psychopath in that other conversation.
Skylar, people do horrible things all the time without necessarily being out and out spaths — partly because of compartmentalizing the world into who deserves one’s compassion or morality (puppies, cancer victims, etc. vs less romanticized things like fellow-adult-colleague-nun), and/or because the human tendency to bully or transgress in some other way is growing in an area where they have a blind spot. A spath could also become a nun if she buys into a lot of the notions in their religion but is simply too stupid to notice the other parts of life that merit application of those notions. Or they just don’t care, and their first successes in life as a spath were in manipulating the local priest, or their community or family by being a virtuous pious young girl, and the vocation had some other appeal for them. Of course in the instances where the local priest was sociopathic, then their whole sense of religion may be skewed.
Some of the coldest and dishonest likely sociopathic shit I’ve had done to me has been by daily churchgoers who really believe they are virtuous. And their expression of their virtue is in being there for their child or parent, protecting them or cleaning up their mess at other (translation: non-family) people’s expense.
Donna sounds tough but nervous and unsure to me. Having to stand up to angry illogic is usually disturbing, but especially so when a situation is new, like maybe this one was. My first reaction with angry gaslighting bluster was to think that I must be wrong because nobody would have the gall to be expressing indignation like that when they knew they were the one in the wrong. Apparently it’s a common haggling technique in business in some cultures, but if you are inexperienced, you are manipulated by it. Until you reach the point that you are not. You may be afraid, but you understand much more quickly that of course the person in front of you is lying again, or this unknown new person who is blustering could be sincere or could be lying.
I have dealt with several people who might qualify as secondary sociopaths, in that they are people who have anxiety issues but have still behaved very immorally/unethically, or have been dishonest consistently in a way a sociopath would.
The truest lovefraudster I have had a close brush with was prone to illogic. In the cases I have encountered it has seemed earnest and sincere and just hysteria, rather than deliberate controlled crazymaking manipulation like the awful man in the audiotape.
I think there must be types who become easily hysterical, and then others who very rarely display that.
Raggedy,
I’m still interested in hearing your story about your spath encounter that brought you here.
I have been reading this website for about 4 months now. In Dec., I broke up with my boyfriend of 2 1/2 years the week before Christmas. I could never figure out why he didn’t act normal. Now I know that he displayed all the traits that are associated with the spath. I did not see him or talk to him for 4 weeks and I thought I was doing good. But the missing him was too hard. I should not have done it but I contacted him and even saw him this past weekend. Now I realize that I will have to start the whole process over again to get him out of my head. My family would be furious with me if they knew I even talked to him. They were so worried about me dating him. They could see right through him and I couldn’t. I was just in “love”. And of course, there was always “talk” of marriage. Anyone, got any advice?
Skylar,
There is no requirement that anyone must tell their personal histories in order participate in discussions on Lovefraud.
To Be Free:
Relationships with sociopaths are highly addictive. What you are experiencing is not love, but addiction. Therefore, you must treat it as and addiction. That’s why No Contact is so important – and why, when you break down and make contact, you have to start all over again.
But you’re not unusual – many people require many attempts before they are truly able to walk away. Get yourself psyched to do it again. Commit to yourself to stay away, and do it.
I was a very, very messed up person with life problems. Stumbled across a player that subjected me to various elements of lovefraud — I was very slow in recognizing things that were going on, as well as patterns and tactics that appear here in various people’s accounts with their spaths. I didn’t have the lovefraud site to learn from. That situation didn’t involve violence. It lasted quite a while, that person is still like crack to me. Addicts get complacent and sometimes pick up the pipe again thinking they can handle it. Mentally ill people get complacent if their medication is working, and then reduce it because they hate the side effects — having lost sight of the terrible chaos or suffereing that comes with their illness unmedicated. Sometimes the pipe is agressive in trying to get back in your life. This is one reason why “skin hunger” interests me. I think it makes some people susceptible to jerks that come around when no one else has stuck around.
Years later, in a different relationship, I was subjected to a really brutal and degrading attack which had an incredibly complicated aftermath, including eventual reinvolvement with the person. In the year after the attack, I found myself obsessed with the Elisabeth Fritzl case which had just broken, because in my bizarre way I related to the idea of being held captive, in that I felt very trapped where I was and unable to tell a soul that could help me resolve things. I was obsessively refreshing google for news, and stumbling upon other crime stories and Dateline and 48 hours archives (i don’t have a tv). Found myself rubbernecking these stories — had watched years earlier the real mystery shows on the Discovery Channel which were similar). I was drawn to these stories and also learning things — you see or hear enough and you start to see patterns on why crime or violence between intimates happens. Anyway I also stumbled accross Eyes for Lies, which had a link to here. I might have also encountered LF before but this was a restumble.
I read a lot of stuff that initially triggered me because of my earlier lovefraud experience. But I also was learning stuff and feeling a certain improvement in my mastery of what happened years earlier and an ability to spot some kinds of trouble — many of us here had NO preparation in our youth even for generic cads. I also learned new important things — like that I may have mistakenly attributed the lovefraudsters deeds to his Middle Eastern background. Or maybe that’s a warranted connection, but still I was reading stories about church people, this type that type, educated etc. (Occasionally I would recognize in stories attributes of my current boyfriend who was on his own journey of redemption, but still very troubled and taxing and draining and abusive though not violent.) You were the first person I ever saw use the expression “grey rock” — a concept or method I never really had to test out but seems like a magic coat of armor for the future. I disagreed with some stuff I read here, was wary of some posters or some of the things they said, but remained a reader, eventually registered out of concern for Nassau Girl and had a handle to post with. Registered a new handle after I lost the otter ballet password.
Much of my internet use was also from boredom at work, so I would check in here regularly and other places.
I was IN my last very damaging relationship while reading.
The extrication of ourselves from the relationship was also very complicated, and ended in a massive betrayal in a number of ways, with more horrible aftermath and upheaval that I am still in, although the attack person is mercifully gone and the relationship ended. I mourn a lot of the positive part that kept us with each other, but also have reminders of why. So while not a classic LF like a bigamist or Donna’s horrible abuser (I don’t even want to type his name), this second guy (not sure if spath or if under influence of a spath — very churchgoing _ father, at most ‘secondary spath”) is one reason I pay attention here. Especially because some things still trigger me and I am not out of the damage this person did yet.
I was close to answering “how is it relevant?” to your question, and wary of your reason for asking. And certainly wary of what new attacks await, especially after learning what happened to Cappuccino Queen. The stuff I typed out and saved is also completely different from what I wrote here because it was heavy on detail of events with abusers rather than about how I ended up at LF. After seeing this latest word salad is from psychopaths business, I decided there is no way I would share it. But you asked again, and so here is some of the answer. I did not edit it it or proofread too carefully; my answer may be too stream-of-consciousness or disjointed for some tastes, so I half-apologize for any ongoing coherence problems.
oh, lol, typing, typing, and Donna steps in in the meantime. Thank you for doing that, Donna. I’m OK with my sort-of compromise post.
And grateful for any good will in skylar’s curiosity.
Thank you Donna.
You are totally right about being additive. I lost my husband of 22 years and very shortly after I started seeing this guy whom I had gone to high school with but had not heard from him in 30 years. He was sending condolences at first, then later wanted to get together to talk. He lived an hour drive from me. I was totally vulnerable. He wanted to shower me with attention and then gifts. But the Dr. Jekell/Mr. Hyde actions was what I couldn’t understand. And of course, in every conflict we had, he turned it around to be my fault. I excused his behavior time and time again. I am just an emotionally generious person, which was bad for this relationship. He lied to me so often but I would end up excusing that too. It is so crazy. Then, of course, I found him talking to other females and he said they were just “friends.”
My deceased husband was a wonderful man and I never was treated in that way. I just don’t understand how I would let someone treat me like this and STILL go back to him. Guess that’s why it’s called addition.
Raggedy Ann,
just from past experience here on LF, I’d say that telling your story will only get you more good will. People here are very compassionate. They only get suspicious if they don’t read any story at all.
Personally, I was very curious because you do seem to have a different perspective than most people here AND you are quite willing to post it and defend it, vehemently. So that made me curious as to why, on both counts.
Your average empath (if I may say there is an average) MIGHT have empathy for a pedophile, but wouldn’t post it on LF because of empathy for the survivors of abuse. Not judging whether that is good or bad, just what I’ve noticed.
I’m kind of like you, in that I will have an opposing opinion and I will mostly just blurt it out. Donna might recall that I have even argued with her on particular issues.
Blogging on LF has taught me to be a bit more “diplomatic” in how I state my positions, but I’m probably still not the most diplomatic person out here.
Being in the company of all these wise teachers here for the last 3 years or so, I’ve learned more about human nature than I have in the previous 44 years (when I learned virtually nothing). Learning is why I’m here, so I appreciate your sharing your experiences. Please continue to share your experience as much as you are comfortable doing. You might be pleasantly surprised at the response you get.
In my life, it was my parents who set me up for being a victim early on. They taught me to sacrifice for others. So of course, I looked like perfect spath food. My spath brother and spath sister are still convinced that I should make the ultimate sacrifice (my life) so they can inherit my share of what anyone would consider a measly inheritance!
I mentioned this because you speak of “skin hunger” and that might be an indication that you were “starved” for touch in your early upbringing, by your parents.
I will be honest and say that I do have some trouble following your posts sometimes. Maybe that’s why people brought up the term “word salad”. I think sometimes it takes some effort from both the reader and the writer to understand each other, so please don’t be offended if people ask you to clarify.
Dear ‘Donna,
After listening to JM reem you on about the car and listening to your tone, knowing all that had happened and you were now back in Jersey, and he is not even concerned about you, just his fxxxxxxx car, I found my self letting go of a little giggle (through my nose) at your tone…I guess because now you had him and you can tell you are not moved at all….I loved that… your tone….Thanks for posting this. It is so true….