Downton Abbey was on TV last night, and Terry and I are among the millions of fans. Last night’s episode (Season 3, Episode 4) ended in tragedy because of behavior that looked so familiar to me.
(Spoiler Alert: The following description gives away the story.)
Lord Grantham’s daughter, Lady Sybil, is about to give birth. Rather than depend on the local country doctor, Dr. Clarkson, Lord Grantham has imported a more socially acceptable obstetrician, Sir Philip Tapsell, to deliver the baby. As the birth approaches, both doctors are in attendance at the estate.
Lady Sybil starts acting incoherently. Dr Clarkson fears that she may be toxemic. He recommends that they rush to the hospital so the baby can be delivered immediately by C-section. Sir Philip insists that nothing is wrong—Lady Sybil is experiencing a normal childbirth. The two doctors argue in front of the entire family and the nature of the argument is why I’m describing the show.
Dr. Clarkson worries that Lady Sybil may be in grave danger, but admits that he doesn’t know for sure. Sir Philip, on the other hand, is totally confident that nothing is wrong. He never wavers. He is pompous in his confidence. He practically sneers at the country bumpkin doctor for being an alarmist, and actually tells him to shut up.
Lord Grantham notes that Dr. Clarkson isn’t sure about the possible danger, whereas Sir Philip is 100% confident that everything is fine. He sides with Sir Philip, and they do not go to the hospital.
Lady Sybil goes into labor and the baby is born. But a short time later, she goes into convulsions and dies.
Argued like a sociopath
Dr. Clarkson was right all along. But Sir Philip spoke with unshakeable self-confidence, unwaveringly certain that he knew best. He argued like a sociopath.
I am not saying that the Sir Philip character is a sociopath. But I am saying that his extreme confidence, his self-righteousness and his hubris are all traits that sociopaths display when they are pushing to get their way.
I write about this in my book, Red Flags of Love Fraud:
How do they do it? How do sociopaths convince you to go along with their agendas, even to your own detriment?
They command it. This is a function of their charisma because they command unflinchingly, with complete self-confidence, they get results. Now, this doesn’t mean sociopaths are always barking orders. Often the commands are delivered on cushions of sweetness, or camouflaged as appeals for sympathy. But in their minds, whatever sociopaths want, they are totally entitled to have. Therefore, when they make their desires known, they show no doubt, only certainty. Compliance is demanded, and targets respond.
Those of us who are not disordered usually aren’t as adamant in expressing our views, opinions or desires. We may think we’re right, but recognize that we could be wrong. We may know what we want, but we’re willing to compromise. So when we come across people who communicate vociferously and forcefully well, we tend to be bowled over. Because of the sheer force of their words, we tell ourselves that they must know what they’re talking about, they’re telling the truth, and they’re right.
My ex-husband’s convincing lies
I’m soon going to be on another TV show I’ll tell you all more when I have details. The producer asked me if I had any more video or audio of my ex, James Montgomery. Well, I found some tapes that I had forgotten about recordings of voice mails, and a recording of our first telephone conversation when I arrived home after leaving him. The tapes illustrate the steamroller tactics with which he argued even when he was lying.
Let me set the scene. James Montgomery swept into my life, portraying himself as a successful entrepreneur. He invited me to be part of his business plans, which, if I could help him get started, were sure to make us fabulously wealthy. He pressured me to lease a car for him it was in my name, and I made all the payments. To feed his unending need for money, I drained my savings and loaded about $60,000 in debt to my previously zero-balance credit cards.
Montgomery also told me he was a member of the Australian military who had heroically served in Vietnam, and still acted as a consultant, particularly on terrorism. He often flew to Florida, telling me he was stopping by MacDill Air Force base in Tampa, home of the Special Operations Command. While there, he was able to get around by borrowing the cars of other military members that were parked at the base.
In December 1998, Montgomery dragged me to Florida, saying he had a contract to open a Titanic show in Orlando. We spent money we didn’t have to move down there. A few weeks later Montgomery admitted he never had a contract. Then, while he was flying to yet another business meeting, I discovered that he had fathered a child with another woman during our marriage. I left Florida, and took the car that he had been driving.
So, here’s part of my conversation with James Montgomery when I was back at my home in New Jersey. (Warning: Contains some profanity.)
Here’s what I know now that I didn’t know during the conversation. My entire marriage was a financial scam. James Montgomery was never in the military. When he travelled to Florida, he was visiting other women including, but not limited to, the mother of the child., who probably owned the car he drove.
Yet listen to how he argued about the car. I was wrong for taking the car back to New Jersey, which inconvenienced him. I was wrong about him using cars from the base. And I was stupidly ignorant about the policy for using military cars. Montgomery was adamant and self-righteous in his argument even though everything he said was a lie.
At the time, the conversation was terribly upsetting. He threw many more accusations and threats at me, which, because of the conviction of his words, made me wonder if he was right.
Later, I discovered that everything he said that day, and practically everything he said during our marriage, was a lie no matter how convincingly the words were stated.
I didn’t know someone could lie with such confidence and conviction. And that’s how I got into the entire mess.
And now “Hungry Eyes” is somehow stuck in my head. And I also suddenly want a brownie.
I think I might have skin hunger. If it is the desire to be touched, held and cherished., I know I do. My cats are great at treating it. They have skin hunger to on their own terms.
How about some “eye candy”?
Only if the “eye candy” comes bearing a brownie….
Kim., go to the EDIT feature and take out all but ONE PERIOD or one letter of your post you want to delete.
Betsy bugs, I was not saying this forum is doing or saying anything about the mentally ill. I think I mentioned that we in the US have a national conversation going about guns and mental illness partly because of children.
I was saying to skylar that my own unique vantage point vis a vis mental illness may have without my realizing it informed how I was willing to see pedophilia: as an affliction imposed on people who might otherwise be civilzed or average or bad.
I’m not here to discuss my being a child mental illness or garner sympathy or gain approval, except for my ideas when they are new to somebody. I am not on lovefraud to discuss pedophilia per se either but it did appear to have come up as a topic for discussion. My reason for being here is connected to conventional lovefraud.
As long as I’m here, it will require some pandering on occasion to the “spirit of the community”.
Thanks, DfG, that was very educational.
Translation: rather than being “schools for saints,” we should expect a convent to contain a HIGHER than average proportion of dysfunctional and personality disordered inmates.
No wonder people talk about being “survivors” of Catholic school!
people mention reliance on spidey senses and bs meters and spathdars, etc.
one of the reasons I had such an emotional breakdown during my relationship with my spath is that in my life, i had always relied on my intuition. it saved my life countless times. i used my intuition to guide me in expressing my humanity.
but my highly sensitive intuition (which sometimes spooked people b/c they felt i was psychic) went haywire when i encountered my spath. i could no longer rely on it or put much faith in it. and without it, i was confused and often WRONG about who i could trust nor could i depend on it to alert me when i was paranoid b/c at the time, it seemed there was NO ONE i could trust (everyone was out to get me – which happens when isolated by spath and his minions and having our reputations smeared to the community).
one lesson i learned post spath is that my intuition is not infallible. sensitivity is great, and i did eventually recover my intuition BUT i came to realize that good judgement required more than ‘sensing’. It also requires prudence, discernment, common sense, emotional maturity, and an adherance to my moral code in order for me to set appropriate boundries on others AND on myself.
saying i could not possibly be wrong b/c my intuition informed or didn’t inform me turned out, for me anyways, to be unwise. after all, mere common sense clearly tells me being wrong IS possible.
just an observation based on my emotional breakdown during my marriage.
raggedy,
Thank you for expanding on your own life experiences in so far you felt comfortable to do so.
I know and understand you feel weary of telling too much about yourself, fearing to end up being hurt if you are rejected, especially when communication so far has not been going smoothly. Others too are weary of you, because for them some of your arguments reminds them of red flags to watch out for.
I am not attacking anyone, nor defending anyone, nor asking for empathy, but I hope to explain where many people come from here, and how it may appear to them.
Most people are not here unless they lived through the deepest betrayal and mental, emotional even sexual and physical abuse by the hands of psychopaths or other extremel toxic people, in some cases these abusers were highly dangerous. Some are very lucky to have actually and literally survived these relationshits (with partners, children, parents, etc). Most of these survivors got involved and stayed with those abusers in the first place because they are naturally trusting and very empathic people. These were people who used to believe that there was good in everyone, and lived with hope that anybody has the personal potential to grow and learn, and that there are always two sides to a story. Some of those people also grew up to regard abuse as normal and sacrificing one self for the favourite toxic sibling or parent, and that would include sexual molestation. Both types of survivors used to think that they were highly responsible in preventing someone who is deeply flawed from doing it again, and thereby had bad boundaries.
A part of the recovery process for survivors is learning to validate our own beliefs, values and boundaries, and what cannot be condoned. It also involves not trusting anyone until they have shown to be trustworthy, as well as looking for signs that someone may be toxic (not always sociopathic, but toxic), and this distrust sometimes does extend to poster here, especially since there have been trolls and toxic people who visited this blog and duped others or wish to create drama and attack people for finally standing up for themselves in a way they never did before. Recovery also includes putting yourself first for once, and setting up boundaries.
There are several reasons in my opinion why your posts have caused people to not welcome you the past week and at best communicate with you with big question marks:
– in the past trolls have played the pity-play card, if not for themselves, at least for a type of toxic person (rapists, criminals, spaths, narcissists, etc). Some of these trolls did present themselves as spath victims, and some even succeeded in that.
-In the mean time those telling us to pity these toxic people do not in any way behave or show empathy for victims and posters of this blog.
– It is also often said in a condescending way, as if they feel they are better than the survivors.
– They emphasise their right to free speech, but at the same time deny others the right to set up boundaries, the right to be treated with respect and be left alone.
When someone behaves in this manner here, several red flags go up, and the response is to shut down on that person. And even those who are far along in their recovery process will step in protectively to prevent those in their first steps of recovery and extremely raw from being harmed.
When you claimed pity for pedophiles in a manner as if asking empathy for them as well as asking for understanding for people who have skewed norms and let themselves be guided by their instincts, while expressing yourself in a way that could be perceived as condescending to survivors (word choice such as ‘pandering’ expresses looking down on others), as well as waving off cautions against possibly hurting and triggering survivors of child abuse and thereby showing no empathy for such survivors, and yet demanding to be respected for your right of free speech, you behaved exactly in a manner that sets of alarm bells.
This blog is not an intellectual debate forum. There can be discussion and disagreement, but it is not the same as a “debate hot zone” where you can order someone out of the kitchen if gets too hot for them to handle. This is foremostly a blog to help people heal and recover. There is little or no other possible place to do this (aside fom a few other self-help forums on this subject). Family, friends and RL environment cannot have the equal understanding for survivors in a way that other survivors can. They hardly ever comprehend how devestating the experience was and how profound and worldview changing it ends up being. It’s not their fault: they didn’t experience it.
It is true that the survivors here may err and reject a person who is in genuine need of support, as apparently happened to Hera. I am deeply sorry for LF, as well as Hera that such occurred. I think it serves all of LF to be cautious in both accepting someone without reserve as well as rejecting someone without reserve. Time and observing usually helps.
Personally I think the intellectual discussions for empathy and pity for pedophiles, spaths and people who behave illegally or immoral because of their instincts is pretty pointless in the context of this blog, no matter how good an intellectual point you may raise about it. I feel pity for many such people, not because I imagine them to be tortured souls, but because they lack the potential to ever experience life in such a spiritual and deeply emotional way as I and others can. But while I may pity them, I do not have empathy for them anymore. Meanwhile I feel the reverse for survivors: I do not pity survivors (instead there are a great many that I admire for their strength to survive), but I fully empathize with them.
I also see no need in acting condescending to survivors or expressing insulting views about other posters or posting community in general. There is nothing constructive about it imo.
I certainly disagree with waving off the request for respect for anyone’s traumatic past.
I hope my post can shed some light for you on why the communication went and goes awry, and if you have a sincere wish and need to engage here it might help you to not end up being hurt yourself or hurt other posters in the process.
I sincerely wish you the best in your efforts to overcome your feelings of communication inadequacy that you expressed, as well as recovery from your own trauma, whether that occurs here or not. Welcome.