By | May 24, 2009 78 Comments

Sociopathic priests and abuse of the spirit

The Reverend Charles Newman, former president of Archbishop Ryan High School in Philadelphia, was sentenced on Friday to three to six years in prison for stealing almost $1 million from the school, according to the Philadelphia Inquirer.

As if that isn’t bad enough, prosecutors say that Newman gave about $54,000 to Arthur Baselice III, once a student at the school, as “hush money” so he would keep quiet about their sexual relationship. Authorities contend that the abuse began when Baselice III was 16-year-old junior at the school. He graduated in 1996. Ten years later, on November 30, 2006, Baselice III died of an overdose in a drug house.

During Newman’s sentencing, the young man’s mother, Elaine Baselice, addressed the court. “He plied my teenage son with alcohol and drugs so that Arthur could be more easily abused,” she said, according to the Philadelphia Daily News. “Newman had me believe my son was full of demons. Standing in the courtroom today, I am faced with the true demon!”

Newman was not charged with sexual abuse because the statute of limitations had expired. He was charged only for the theft. The priest spoke briefly during the hearing in disjointed remarks, but did not apologize to the Baselices or explain what happened to the money. The court didn’t buy whatever he said.

“Your explanations are sorely lacking ”¦ and that’s putting it mildly,” Judge Rose Marie DeFino-Nastasi said. “Your explanations are bizarre.”

Reading the coverage of this case, it seemed to me that the Reverend Charles Newman fit the profile of a sociopath.

More info:
Philadelphia Inquirer: Ex-principal gets 3-6 years for theft
Philadelphia Daily News: ”˜Detestable’ conduct nets priest 3-6 years

Child abuse in Ireland

The Newman case was bad, but not nearly as shocking as another story now in the news—the endemic rape and abuse of thousands of children in Ireland, from the 1930s to the 1990s, by Catholic priests and nuns.

On May 20, a 2,600-page report by Ireland’s Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse was released. It found that children in 250 church-run schools, orphanages and other institutions, supported by taxpayer funds, were routinely abused and molested. Catholic religious orders ran more than 50 workhouse-style reform schools. One of the orders, the Christian Brothers, which ran several boys’ institutions, harbored serial child molesters and sadists on its staff.

The report took nine years to complete. Thousands of still-traumatized men and women, now in their 50s to 80s, testified, some traveling back to Ireland from America or Australia.

“A climate of fear, created by pervasive, excessive and arbitrary punishment, permeated most of the institutions and all those run for boys,” the report stated. “Children lived with the daily terror of not knowing where the next beating was coming from.”

At the time, however, the religious orders were concerned only about preventing scandal, not the danger to the children. According to the Associated Press, “The management did not listen to or believe children when they complained of the activities of some of the men who had responsibility for their care,” the commission found. “At best, the abusers were moved, but nothing was done about the harm done to the child. At worst, the child was blamed and seen as corrupted by the sexual activity, and was punished severely.”

The report may not lead to prosecution of the perpetrators because in 2004, the Christian Brothers successfully sued to prevent them from being named. “Most leaders of religious orders have rejected the allegations as exaggerations and lies, and testified to the commission that any abuses were the responsibility of often long-dead individuals,” AP reported.

The Irish government has paid 12,000 abuse survivors an average of $90,000 each, a total of more than $1 billion, and another 2,000 claims are pending. But in 2001, Irish Catholic leaders cut a deal with the government that capped its contribution to the claims at $175 million—a fraction of the total cost.

More info:
The Independent, London: Thousands were raped in Irish reform schools Catholic Church shamed by Irish abuse report
Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse: Executive summary

Betrayal by Spirit

In The Betrayal Bond, author Patrick J. Carnes, Ph.D., specifically discusses how abuse by clergy affects victims. “It is generally agreed that the impact on survivors of sexual abuse by spiritual leaders is greater than survivors of other forms of power abuse,” he writes. “Since part of coping with trauma is spiritual, sexual abuse by a spiritual leader further complicates the recovery process.”

Why is this so? Carnes writes:

Every journey or recovery depends on the survivor coming to a point where all that person has gone through means something.

Betrayal by the spirit means that the person who betrays the victim also plays a critical role in the resources the victim has for defining meaning. The victim’s spiritual path is blocked. The fundamental question all victims have to answer for themselves is, ”˜Why do bad things happen to good people?’ It is a far more troubling question when the cause of the problem is supposed to be the resource for the answer.

Close to home

For me, all of this scandal hits very close to home. My cousin was abused by a priest. His was one of the early cases—he got a settlement at least 15 years ago. I don’t know how much it was, and I don’t know exactly what happened. According to the terms of the settlement, he’s not allowed to talk about it.

But I do know this: My cousin’s life is a disaster. His marriage fell apart. He was never able to hold a steady job. He spent his settlement money buying drinks for friends in bars. He became addicted to heroin. He assaulted his elderly father. His brothers want nothing to do with him.

When my cousin and two other men first pursued their claims against the priest, his mother, my aunt, took the word of the church over the word of her son. She went to her grave believing that my cousin lied about the entire thing.

I wonder if my aunt could believe today’s news.

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It never ends, sorry, but the Catholic Church disgusts me. I can not believe how they protect these evil people just to keep the church’s reputation in check. The lies go all the way to the top. I don’t understand how anyone would want to belong to this church, or trust their children to these people.


it is not just the catholic church. It is ALL denominations. In fact it is a bigger problem in protestant churches with, last time I checked, about 70 cases a week being reported. Sadly many of those other churches point fingers and try to say its a catholic problem also. Thank goodness for SNAP and organizations like them.


And to be blunt the Catholic church has made a least some progress in trying to change in this area although they have a long way to go. The same can not be said for the largest protestant denomination in this country.

Ox Drover

It isn’t just “christian” chruches of any denomination, but ALL faiths have psychopaths that mask themselves with “holiness” to cover their psychopathy.

Every day the news is full of church employees, teachers, ministers,Boy Scout leaders, etc. and others in positions of power and authority being arrested for sexual or other abuse of children in their charge. Parents are regularly arrested for incestual relationships with their children now, what could be worse than the betrayal of a parent?

Having actually known up close and personal one of the worst known serial abusers ever convicted Charles “Jackie” Walls III, here in Arkansas, who was known to have abused over 1,500 kids as a Scout leader over 20+ years, and was responsible for one known suicide (his nephew) and the murder of one of his victim’s parents by the victim at Jackie’s orders.

Personally, my opinion is that ALL pedophiles are PSYCHOPATHS, so if you add that number (and apparently, according to Dr. Anna Salter, PhD one of the world’s experts on it, it is RAMPANT in all societies including ours.) that makes a bunch of psychopaths in our society, over and above the 1-4% that Hare acknowledges. My personal position is that maybe up to 20% of our population is personality disordered to one extent or another. The damage done to these victims is probably responsible for much of the pain and suffering in our society today.

If I had a magic wand and could wave it and every psychopath on the planet would disappear, I think “over population” would not be a problem, and earth would be one big “paradise.”

I guess I better get off my soap box before my blood pressure goes through the top of my head and I have a stroke! This particular issue is a hot one for me.


As an attorney friend of mine, who is representing the victims of the abuse in their lawsuits against the Catholic church says “these cases bring new dimension to the phrase ‘putting the fear of God into…'”



Thank-you for bringing this to our attention. My most recent experience with an n/p was with a spiritualist, in the more new-age vein. He advertised himself as someone who could advance his ‘students’ enlightenment through body/mind movement. I, being a long practicing dancer, was drawn to movement as expression of my authentic self. So his involvement in movement was very attractive to me, and gave me the impression that he was a deep, creative, and loving person; who was helping others to find their own voice.

Little did I know this was his supply space, and that the students (mostly women) were his sources of admiration, money, car rides, sex, and worship. That hanging out in the ‘new age’ community was a perfect place to sell snake oil.

This mind/body expression extended to our sexual life, which was presented to me as an expression of our higher selves, and way to deepen our awareness of God/Ourselves.

Needless to say, the sex (at the outset anyway) was staged to this affect. Lots of eye-gazing, breathing together, and really tuning in to one another. Now I understand it was like hypnotism, these love sessions. He told me how to breathe, how to look at him, how to move, when to start, when to stop. Total control.

And I would open so completely. Yet I always ended up feeling longing and wanting more. I never felt seen and heard and felt, but thought it was my ‘lack of enlightenment’. Not understanding it was becauase I was trying to experience connection with someone who was only pretending. Like making love to a blow up boyfriend, with a tape recorder inside it, that said the right things. And I didn’t have eyes to see, or ears to hear that ‘he’ was a fake. So I kept thinking it was me, being too attached, too superficial, too needy.

What a shock when it became clear that he couldn’t decide between monogamy and ‘poly amory’, and when the sex devolved into a strange, pornographic, and entirely unsatisfying worship of him….and had absolutely nothing to do with me, or our loving ‘worship’ of one another.

Though I know I have had multiple other relationships with N/P’s, this one was the most damaging and disabling for me. I think the use of spiritual principles and practices disarmed me more than I would have been otherwise. I felt like I was opened wide, exposing my most vulnerable places, in the desire to experience something greater than myself. Only to find myself ultimately alone in the experience.

As Joni Mitchell wrote, “Help me I think I’m fallin’ in love with you…..are you gonna let me go there by myself, it’s such a lonely thing go do….”

Oxy- Yes, I believe child molesters ARE socio’s. This hits home for me as I was abused, as a young child by my grandfather. He was not a particularly spiritual man, but a ‘good’ man; quiet, very calm, friendly, and everyone really liked him, thought of him as a deep and reliable man. He was 20 when he married my grandmother, and she was only 13!

I think he was my initial indoctrination into the psyche of a psychopath. And it has been a long road of learning, and of multiple relationships with pd’d individuals, that my ‘inner child’ kept confusing with the ‘love’ and attention my grandfather paid me (I was a lonely child, isolated, and pining for my absent mother).

I think these two events have much in common. I think they are both deeply wounding, due to the openess they engendered in me. With my grandfather because I was so young and vulnerable and open to him and wanting/needing his affection. And to the toxic spiritual N/P when I allowed myself to be open and vulnerable because I heard a spiritual message, and didn’t imagine anyone would use these principles for selfish use. Both highly vulnerable ‘states’.

I am finding it is a long road finding my way back to my own spiritual sense, my faith, and my trust in what is real. I am sad so much of my life has been taken up in finding my way to the truth of psychopathology. I have yet to find a balance between these ‘terrible’ truths, and the beauty that still exists inside me, in the world, in other people.

Namaste, or the light in me sees and honors the light in each of you,



I believe in God in my way. But this reminds me of my daughter-in-law who I adore, I will call her sister christian overtime. Wouldnt miss church if the house was on fire, thats fine. But a few years ago I went to her church and met her pastor baptist, didnt like him at all. Weak handshake and no eye contact. My daughter in law was very involved with his family( had 3 daughters ) and I was uneasy about my grandsons being around this man, but I kept my mouth shut. Well there had been many bank robberys in my city and the robber kept getting away, he never used a gun just a note that said ‘give me your money and I wont hurt you.’ Yeppers it was pastor baptist, they caught him, he had been robbing the bank and the church and was buying the company of prostitutes. It really wrecked my DIL, but I have never said ‘I told you so” this pastor got 4 years in the pen and has a church in the pen. Religion has screwed up more lives and caused more deaths by war than any other thing ever….ok OX I am off my soap box now too – gonna go drink a beer.

Ox Drover

Yes, Henry, the “church” is a great place for hypocrits to hide. Or the synagog or the temple, or the new age as slim one pointed out. SNAKE OIL SALESMEN/WOMEN or people out for a few million bucks “send in your donations brethern and sistern!” while they live in 25 million dollar estates from the donations of all the little old ladies on social security!

When someone like your DIL’s “pastor” is exposed it should give a warning to people who BLINDLY believe that “brother so and so” is so holy! My Trojan Horse Psychopath has got the jive down about pretending to be “saved” and getting the churches to “help” him—and of course he takes advantage of them. My P-son is great at that too! blame it all on the DEVIL tempting you! LOL ROTFLMAO

It is the worst kind of criminal psychopath, but all too common. What makes me think the pedophiiles are psychopaths, ALL OF THEM, is that they NEVER CHANGE and there is NO therapy that “cures” them. Just like the rest of the Ps. Nothing helps them and only gives them the buzz words to pretend to “reform.”

Have a beer for me! If you want more “beer” I will put a bucket under hairy Ass or Fat ass and catch you some! It all looks the same to me, and tastes the same too! Yuk! LOL

Very timely and interesting article (and disgusting and repulsive as well), Miss Donna

You know what really disturbs me concerning the avalanche of abuse cases caused by folks who work in/for religious institutions?

Is the irreparable damage they are causing not only to their once precious, innocent and vulnerable children victims but to the entire spiritual meaning associated with faith.

People hear the detailed accounts of these atrocities committed by pseudo priests, clergymen, nuns and after hearing one too many news articles…they become absolutely disgusted, revolted, frustrated and angry at these so-called pious, righteous religious workers.

And in their anger they lump ALL Christians into the same sick, sordid heap as these abusers. It’s not fair, but I have become much more understanding of polarized viewpoints since I’ve been researching patholigical personality disorders.

Having no current knowledge of the prevalency, of the proliferation of psychopaths in the world, I was also confused and deeply saddened, deeply repulsed by the heinous crimes of the clergy. What good hearted, kind, gentle, decent person wouldn’t be?!

Now…I know the truth. I know the reality. Psychopaths, hell the entire gambit, spectrum of PDIs are discovered in every social, economic, relgious groups of people.

The evil live up on high, in their shiny white towers which disguise the malevolent darkness that abides within and the evil live among the squalor, the reak and muck of despairing poverty.

Apparently, evil does not discriminate when seaking souls to corrupt and destroy. And by allowing, choosing evil to worship they also corrupt, abuse, annihilate and destroy their innocent victims.

We can ask ourselves..”When will it end? When will these atrocities against human beings end?”

Not to sound like a dooms-dayer but it will get much, much worse until more decent people learn, accept and believe the fundamental crisis that is facing modern society: the psychopath.


Religion is for people who dont want to go too hell, spiritualality is for people who have already been there.. I will pass on the beer Oxy


Jane Smith,

Well said, woman. Well said!

There is a heaviness yes, but I have the same wonder: when will we wake up to this?

Some of my friends are beginning to understand PDI, thanks to my unrelenting references….and just that makes me, dare I say it, hopeful.

IMHO it ends when we decide that establishing foundations for permanent peace as our most important task. This will change every decision and priority mankind chooses.

Thank-you for your wonderful words…..No idol flattery–I love the way you express yourself.


JaneSmith: You rightly name the extent of the reach of evil. When I am being my most kind, understanding self, I see the psychopath as the human-skinned tool of Evil. If pure Evil wanted a place to live, to operate unrestricted, it would be from the brain and body of someone so distorted and dysfunctional in their motivations and lack of restraint.

I agree with you that education on the nature of personality disorders and the extent of the devastation they cause is an enormous, immediate issue for society.

I’m glad you also see this. The more of us who do, the more the truth can move forward.


I have…uh….”dated” 2 men in my life who were supposedly deeply spiritual beings. My experiences were very similar to slimone’s. Looking back, I believe both are narcissists. Both wanted to practice ‘tantric sexuality’ which, to me, is the expression of a deep love, trust and commitment between two people. Instead, they wanted it with no strings attached. I was deeply hurt by both. (Geez, no wonder I’m still single). Both are very powerful and revered by their followers. The first one used to browbeat me into “dressing for bed” every night. This entailed wearing sexy lingerie, garters, fishnets, and heels. To bed! I can’t believe I put up with this creep for a year. He used to constantly tell me he couldn’t be monogamous with me because I wasn’t enlightened enough and that my jealousy of his coveting other women was something I needed to get over. I got over it all right. When he exited my life, I wanted nothing to do with him again. He called me out of the blue from Hawaii a few weeks ago. I just deleted the message.

I don’t even want to talk about the other more recent one. It amazes me how many narcissists and sociopaths masquerade as deeply spiritual or religious people. And it’s disgusting. As adults we at least can be more selective over whom we trust. But children are totally dependent on adults.


Star: I’m starting to feel like I can’t trust anybody! I’m watching repeats of “To Catch a Predator” on MSNBC (they are having a “marathon” of this show for Memorial Day – I CAN’T FIGURE OUT WHY FOR GOD’S SAKE) and most of the men look normal. I have to stop watching it, it is making me sick. So thanks for the heads up on the “spiritual” Ns & Ss that prey on adults, I hadn’t really thought about that at all.


shabbychic2: I’m glad I don’t watch TV. It would probably reinforce my trust issues. I’m happy with my cats and snakes for now. I have a pretty one draped around my shoulders (snake) helping me type. I wish I could post a picture so you could all see how beautiful he is.


S-Chic: The P I got involved with — someone else described him as “the most spiritual man I ever met!” I remember one night when he used his charisma to take over a New Age CD release party at a gallery in Santa Monica. He was a nothing and a nobody, but he just showed up and acted like he knew everyone and everything, and he took over the show. (I see this stuff now. I couldn’t understand what I was seeing back then!)

Consider that they want as much influence as they can get, and they don’t care how they get it. The preacher, the sheriff, the shrink, the lawyer, the doctor, the “New-Age shaman”: every one of those roles can be exploited by a psychopathic personality. (Oh, yeah, Navy Seals, too!)

I figure that what we have to do is watch them in action, and watch for the humility and the normal human screwups that say that they aren’t playing a carefully calculated role.

I hate that we have to think this way — but if this is the truth, then better we learn it than not.

Wow…two of the most intelligent and eloquent writers on LF think I wrote something of importance! I always see it as the other way around: me learning so much from you folks.

Rune: May I have the privilege of quoting you on your response to me? It was brilliant as all your posts are. Such a super smart gentle loving lady you are….*hug*

Slimone (Catherine), you wrote..”IMHO it ends when we decide that establishing foundations for permanent peace as our most important task. This will change every decision and priority mankind chooses.”

Yes, I wholeheartedly agree in my idealistic heart. The question, the problem will be whether or not people really want peace and harmony which I consider essential for a healthy, happy life.

It would take an unprecedented global involvement, solidarity for this most glorious utopian ideal to transpire. And, sadly, realistically…..I don’t see this happening on a minor scale much less on a grand one.

Optimistically, we have our righteous warriors working diligently, day after day, making strides to stop evil in it’s tracks. Like LF, for instance.

There are countless reasons to love, respect and care for the folks who frequent this website, but the most important one to me is how each and every one of us awesome folks are unswervingly, unflinchingly searching for truth. In all its’ sordid ugliness and its’ wondrous beauty.

Like people in general who search for truth, in the outer world as well as the inner world within themselves, if they were strong enough to overcome childhood abuse/tragedy, if they were strong enough to not be seduced by the darkside in living a sleazy, self-destructive life, if they were strong enough to pick up the pieces after a horrifying ordeal with a psychopath and realize they are so blessed by the simple fact that they are ALIVE and oh so KICKIN….then you know what? These folks can most certainly HANDLE THE TRUTH!!

That’s us as I see it. And the more truth revealed to us as we educate ourselves in as many different areas/arenas that we are exposed to….the smarter, the more content, the more serene and joyful we become.

Yeah, I can be heavy and serious when it is called for, but I’m also really goofy and mischievous as well. And I will be damned if I let evil take what’s precious from me. It is MINE, whatever that mine is and I will never surrender any part of myself to another probable psychopathic suspect ever again. Never.

(btw–I’ve graduated to “idol” status? Cool me! Can I be one of those golden ones with 10 arms holding wicked sharp kitanas in each hand?…haha..wink & a hug)

Peace, Love and Joy to all….



So sorry to say but these religious organizations are alive and well in our society some international such as the religious organization call “The Family”.

Some of us know about the Rick Rodriguez and his tragic story revealing his time he spend growing up in this religious organization. The founder (descended) is David Berg.

Voice of David Berg: I practice what I preach, and I preach sex, boys and girls, Hallelujah! I say ‘fuck’ you know what I’m talking about, don’t you? Every one of you know except maybe for some of the children but our kids are so smart they even know what that means. We don’t think there’s anything evil about it. We don’t think there’s anything wrong with it.

David Berg is a known sociopath/NPD…

Rich Rodriguez killed one member then took his own life. His plan was to kill his mother but was unable to locate her. Also River Phoenix (Movie: Stand by me) is a know victim of this cult. The Family is still up and running but states it no longer practice “pedophilia” when Aids come to the public knowledge.

The effects of pedophilia on a child is long term…

Albeit that this practice is done in “God’s name” what sicken me to the core is how they get the courts to seal the records and hide from public using the court system to do so. Who do we (victims) turn to? The law which shields them and the records seal from public knowledge. This “hush money” paid to the victims not allowing them to tell us their story which would educate the general public. How do we stop it from happening again when these steps are taken and condoned even by the courts of law??

“Irish Catholic leaders cut a deal with the government that capped its contribution to the claims at $175 million—a fraction of the total cost.”

Being a victim of this sexual molestation myself by a “pastor” I know to well that pain suffered by the victims being one myself. Ironically, maybe because I never lost my faith in God and knew any type of revenge serves no purpose and through many years of therapy I never got to the point that Rich Rodriguez did or to because another suicide victim like River Phoenix but I understand the rage Rich suffer from and know how something like this can bring one to suicide. This betrayal can and does often overwhelm the victim. Tell me is there a “price tag” anyone can put on this or even has the right to do so?


“henry says:

Religion is for people who dont want to go too hell, spiritualality is for people who have already been there.. I will pass on the beer Oxy”

Very Good!

Words of wisdom!


It is not religion or a group of people or a certain faith !

People kill people , in more ways than just murder!

Just like a gun is not responcible for killing someone!

We above most can relate how and why this happens!
Brainwashing, brainscrewing manipulation! Cults exist! Psycopaths exist!

Please don’t blame God or steriotype a group because of the evil amungst us! Peace

I am glad most posters have stated God, the Catholic Church and organized religion are not inherently evil. I am an orthodox Catholic and I am sick of the jokes about priests and insults. It’s a cheap and lousy to attack Christianity.

That said- I do believe the Devil ( yes, real capitol D- he exists) does target in particular the Catholic church. No doubt about it and to often church leadership are his footmen. He targets the Church , because the Catholic Church is the fullness of the faith.

I condemn and find these crimes the most repugnant. And I am the first to hold the church accountable- this makes me no friends. Both psychos I know are parishoners. They use the church to act out in.

I blog on evil and psychopathy-


I don’t think this is the place to debate celibacy. I find your remarks abusive, cruel and lacking in empathy to say the least.


Well, I believe in God and I have no problem with the Catholic church in general–actually rather like it the few times I have attended one. But I think there are bad people both in and out of religion. The only thing I would like to toss in the mix really about the Catholic church and child abuse, is that I think it is unnatural to expect a Priest or Nun to take a vow of celibacy and refrain from sexual activity. I think when a person has that set of “rules” to follow that prevents them from satisfying their natural impulse that is just ASKING for trouble.

With that said, it does not excuse preying on vulnerable children. BUT I can also see the dynamics of how it could happen because seems to me the Priest might see the child as vulnerable and least likely to “out him”, thus he may choose a child to express his sexual urges with, even if he is not “technically” a pedophile–meaning even if a child is not his sexual preference. A priest very well might prefer adults but if his sexual desires become overwhelming and a child is around, it may just be too tempting and that is the way it plays out. Well, what I mean is, even if a child would not be his FIRST choice, given a different set of circumstances, it could be the child is convenient, more likely to keep quiet, and thus the Priest is more likely to keep his JOB of priest.

Please understand I don’t condone it and I think it is WRONG and yes the adults are the adults who should be able to control their own behavior etc. But I am also saying I think the Catholic church has this rule in effect that really goes against nature and the sexual urges we all have and want to express. I think these cases of abuse of children in the church should be prosecuted to the fullest and the church sholuld stop covering it up. But I also think the church needs to allow Priests and Nuns to marry and ditch that vow of celibacy. If that one little rule was changed, I think there’d be a lot less horny Catholic Priest running around wearing robes who can’t get it on with adults without losing their job, so they stoop to abusing innocent children.


Ok, in scrolling back thru the comments, I see Blogger T said:
“it is not just the catholic church. It is ALL denominations. In fact it is a bigger problem in protestant churches …….”

Well, I guess that blows my theory of a buncha horny priests who had to take a vow of celibacy and should be allowed to marry theory right outta the water!!!


I think there is great virtue in choosing a life of celibacy (and I certainly hope I’m right, seeing as I may be destined for it myself.) However, I think that most people underestimate the pull of the sex drive, and without proper understanding of how to transform/transmute this energy, it’s very dangerous to simply repress it and regard it as evil. I don’t think it’s a problem with Catholicism per se to require celibacy. I just think that people take the vow not totally understanding how and why. In Buddhist retreats, we had to take a vow of celibacy for up to 3 months even without talking or speaking to anyone. During that time, we got to observe all of our sexual/romantic attractions to the others around us that we could not act on. We just observed the energy and let it wash over us. For some (like me), we couldn’t wait to get out of the retreat so we could pursue our romantic attractions. However, a few I know of took it on as a challenge to see if they could feel the energies without acting on them. Those people are among some of the wisest and most peaceful people I know, and they don’t feel the need to act out inappropriately by molesting children.


Given the topic of Catholicism and sexual abuse, it didn’t occur to me that mentioning celibacy would be considered to be out of line. I was trying to convey my opinion that the sex drive is a strong motivating force in alot of behavior, even bad behavior, and that I don’t think suppressing it is healthy–simply MY OPINION. But I was also hoping to get across the point that I don’t think lack of sex is an excuse for abusing children (and for the record I think most people who have no sexual outlets DO NOT abuse children). In rereading my earlier post I see that I did inject some of my off the wall humor in my comments that I suppose could be considered offensive–(humor that probably only I find funny, but oh well). But anyway, I didn’t deliberately intend the remarks to be offensive, but I can see where someone might take offense to them. But anyway, I have nothing else to say on the subject but sorry you took offense and find my remarks abusive, cruel, and lacking in empathy.

Ox Drover


I agree with you and I also disagree with you on this.

First, I thinkk that ANY CHILD ABUSER IS A PSYCHOPATH, period, and they choose children because they are SICKO PREDATORS.

Doesn’t matter if they are teachers, priests, baptist, catholic, or voo doo priests….they are SICKO PREDATORY PSYCHOPATHS. that is why they target children who are vulnerable.

As Donna has stated she believes that psychopaths are not straight or bi or gay, but ANY SEXUAL OUTLET is fine with them, though they have a prefered one, but any port in a storm.

My personal opinion is that crucifiction is too fast and painless for psychopathic kiddie diddlers—-

What does make me upset is that the Catholic church and some other churches have had “higher authorities” cover up KNOWN CRIMES BY THEIR PRIESTS/MINISTERS—-and in my book, any “higher authority” that covers up a crime of this sort should also be punished with the offender, with the same punishment. What lets it go on, in any place is when people COVER UP this kind of thing instead of EXPOSE IT!

Well said…There is NO excuse for cover-up, and I believe that act in itself is just as wrong as the abusers behaviour- they are cohorts in crime. It sickens me to allow ANY SEXUAL DEVIANT to be allowed to go underground. The punishment should be the same for both.

Ox Drover

Well if you covered up for a bank robber or a murderer you would be an “Accompliace AFTER THE FACT” and would also go to prison in many cases….so I think this should be the same treatment as covering up for the bank robber.

Unfortunately, people who have been abused by their fathers often state their mother either “didn’t believe” it or hushed it up, or even in some cases BLAMED THEM!


This whole manipulation and cover up makes me feel so desperate for humanity. And some how ordinary people ade and abet the most horrible crimes. Not to go into too much detail – I have experienced it in my up bringing, when questionable behaviour came to light with male members of my family, and I ‘called it’ I was turned on and shunned. I was even told that they ‘knew’ but that the person in question had ‘never actually hurt anyone’! (no! just co-erced, exploited young vulnerable females into sexual relationships!!) My relationship with the s/p has made me painfully aware of how easily humans are able to ‘block out’ behaviours that are clearly unacceptable. A human being’s capacity for Denial seems to be evil’s most powerful and dangerous tool.


(lol. my capacity to spell is definitely not mine.;)


Blueskies: Unless someone has been manipulated by an S/P — and has come to REALIZE it! — they wouldn’t believe how skillful these people are as manipulators. It’s not just our blindness. It’s also their tremendous ability to persuade us that black is white, up is down, and poison is good for us!

Denial is also a survival mechanism. It’s what lets us run on a broken leg, if that’s the only way we can survive. But at some point we need to know the truth if we are going to become fully awake in our lives.


I also want to say(and no offence to Jen cuz I think she’s ace) that I dont for one second buy the idea that a life of celibacy can lead to peadophillia. What a crock. I dont have a particularly good opinion of the catholic church, but that is based on my own experiences with individuals involved in it.
A neighbor of mine where I used to live, was a single parent, eventually got busted for child pornography. In his statements to the press he said that he had become isolated and lonely(as a single parent) and it had lead him to act in this manner. BS!!!!! I dont buy it. I am a single parent. I sometimes get lonely. I have been without sex for years at a time (sniff;) But it is just not in me to behave like that. Certain institutions are set up perfectly to enable these SICKO predators to operate and so they are drawn to them. The Catholic church is one because it is doing the big denial dance. The s/p I knew is an NP and wants to work ( he says help) in poor and isolated communities, I wonder why. help himself to people with no power to stop him.

Elizabeth Conley


” their tremendous ability to persuade us that black is white, up is down, and poison is good for us! ”

You are so right. There’s no warning people about Sociopaths. They either get it, or they don’t. If people don’t get it, they will give the Sociopath chance after chance to “reform”. They’ll believe every word the charming sociopath utters, and defend the sociopath against all comers, particularly his/her victims.

Churches are particularly vulnerable, because they are predisposed to believe anyone can change. They also tend to have a need to believe that all the bad people are outside their church, and the people inside their church are blameless.

In our age of litigation, most churches have conceded that they need insurance. What they haven’t conceded is that they need to follow their insurer’s guidelines. Their liability insurance will not cover them in circumstances where they’ve failed to perform appropriate background checks on volunteers/workers or failed to respond immediately to allegations of malfeasance.

It’s going to take a 2nd wave of litigation for the churches to wake up to their responsibilities. Right now they think their insurance and good intentions protect them from their irresponsible choices. When they realize that they are not covered by insurance in cases where they’ve failed to follow the insurer’s guidelines, they will finally act responsibly.

It’s impossible to reason with naive, well intentioned Christians who are headstrong in their conviction that they are right to “forgive and forget” all transgressions, including transgressions made not against them, but against others. So confident are these people that they “have the mind of Christ”, that they stubbornly accept into their midst, harbor and eventually protect Sociopaths from all consequences.

This has cost Christianity untold suffering, and yet the only hope for change lies in the civil courts. These proud, stubborn men will not bend until wave after wave of litigation begins to nibble away at their bottom line.


Elizabeth Conley: You sound like an uppity woman who doesn’t know your place. Good for you! I came from a very religious background, and I have seen everything you say. And I know that my belief in that dogma was a large part of why I stayed married to a very toxic person for 6 years in my very young life.

We are so fortunate that we have “had the scales drop from our eyes” so we can see these predators — or even acknowledge that they exist so that we are willing to listen when someone else recognizes one!

Elizabeth Conley

Yes Rune. I am one uppity woman.

My trust in various dogma about humility and obedience made me vulnerable to predators too. Until I got “uppity”, I was little more than a roll of toilet paper to “nice” Christian men.

Now I’m uppity, and the men still comfortable in my company are good, strong and wise. The mama’s boys and the cluster Bs have run for cover! No great loss there!


EC: So that WAS you I saw on the poster advocating uppitiness! I notice you weren’t barefoot, either.

We need role models of women who can stand up for themselves, and also retain their feminine presentation of strength. Good for you. Your daughter is lucky. And so is your son.

Ox Drover

Also, ED, some churches are so “enabling” (afraid to offend anyone even if what they are doing is OPENLY BAD) churches used to take “disfellowshipping” more seriously and when a member was caught in BAD ACTIONS they would publicly toss them out! Seldom is this done any more. The biggest known hypocrits sit on the “front pew” and I guess also CONTRIBUTE MORE.

These people give all Christians and all churches bad names, and when a church deliberately hides “secret sin” like child molestation on the theroy that the perp has “repented” and give them another opportunity to “sin” against children, then I think they should ALL be strung up by their U_NO_WHAT’S.

I was raised to forgive and FORGET with emphasis on the FORGET or “pretend it didn’t happen” and to keep all the “secret sins” of family members QUIET! OR ELSE. It never set well or seemed right but it was what I was taught and it almost turned me against God…fortunately I got out of that mind set and see that this kind of “forgiveness” is NOT what the Bible or good sense either teach.

One of the most loving, kind, caring and naive ministers I ever knew does in prison ministry (that’s how I met him) but I have educated this wonderful caring man to psychopaths (many of his “parish”) so that he is hopefully not so likely to get hooked into their pity stories. My P son is a good “Christian con” with the best of them.

Jesus himself was not a “namby pamby” person, and He called a “Spade a spade” and challenged the hypocrits in the Temple. It is what got him crucified. It will get us “crucified” shunned and tossed out on our ears many times if we try to expose these people and bring their “sins” to light. The BLIND believers were summed up by jesus when He said “have eyes and do not see, have ears and do not hear.”

As the psychopaths on their blog call those people “SHEEPLE” and so they are! DUMB sheep which is about the best thing I can say about sheep. If any animal higher than a flat worm has as little intelligence as a sheep I don’t know what it is.

I am tired of being a SHEEP and blindly following what ANYONE “teaches” me with the “voice of God”—I can read it for myself.

I was persecuted and ridiculed in my living history group for wanting a convicted and former inmate member (child porno) expelled from our group and working with kids! I was totally dumbfounded when I got that response from people I had RESPECTED and people I thought were intelligent and caring. Coul’a’fooled me!

Elizabeth Conley


“Pretend it Away” Christians make abuse possible. Enablers is the nicest thing we can call them.

“I was persecuted and ridiculed in my living history group for wanting a convicted and former inmate member (child porno) expelled from our group and working with kids! I was totally dumbfounded when I got that response from people I had RESPECTED and people I thought were intelligent and caring. Coul’a’fooled me”

Nice Christian people have a fit when you suggest that Sociopaths and Psychopaths need to be dealt with cautiously. If you suggest this you’re mean, unforgiving, unsubmissive, yada, yada, ya. They put the fox in charge of the hen house time after time. Then try to pretend there are no chickens missing.


EC said: “Churches are particularly vulnerable, because they are predisposed to believe anyone can change.”

I read several newspaper articles and also a book about Jimmy Swaggart. The book covered alot more detail about his ongoing bad behavior, than just the several “well known falls” he had. He is a perfect example of the type some Christians think can change and should be forgiven—again and again and again–and lets keep him in the pulpit. He is a showman who knows all the “pretty” and “right” words to say, but man his bad behavior through the years and years and YEARS has been something else!

But on the flipside, it is unfortunate that the “bad” ones who get the publicity cast a bad light on the ones who are sincere in their beliefs and try to follow the righteous life, in spite of their human imperfections. I grew up with a Preacher (he died just a few years ago) who was one of the finest men I’ve ever known. He was honest about his imperfections, that Preachers are subject to the same temptations as the rest of us, and he tried and IMO suceeded, in living his life as true to his beliefs as possible. God bless him.


PLease back up your claims. I am extremely well-read regarding psychopathy and I have NEVER read that celibacy or a cloister breeds psychopathy. Never. In reality -if teh tenets of the Church were followed , There wouldbe no abuse anywhere.

Sinful people are the problem not the Church’s teachings.

Ox Drover

Jen and EC (not ED LOL) I second what you have both said entirely.

I am so sickened by the greedy bas+ards on TV preaching and askin gfor donations whil eliving in 25 million $ houses. One of the tabloids a while back got a helicopter and published aerial photos of them and they looked like the CEO of ENRON’s house, or Madoff’s. Like the Bakkers. PUKE! Also these public POLITICAL “Revernends” that have bastard kids and mistresses and no real church, how are they supported? EVEN WHEN THEY ARE EXPOSED they keep on keeping on and somehow are still “popular” with those that admire their causes. PUKE

No one seems to care a flip about the damage they do, about the greed and corruption they are involved in and they “repent” and keep on SINNING and no one holds them accountable. Is there no “right” or “wrong” any more? Is there no PUBLIC SHAME any more, do people no longer want honest and moral “spiritual leaders”? WHAT THE HECK? Doesn’t make sense to me. I guess I am getting old and cranky, WHERE’S MY SKILLET? Henry did you borrow it again to cook corn bread in—no, I forgot you have your own skillet—guess my CRS must hve misplaced it again!


I took the time to read just ONE account of a lifelong Priest-Abuser – the link to that article is above.

It’s a long read, so only go there when you have a couple hours to do so, and moreso, I suggest you be in the mood to deal with the “down and dirty” details of his entire ministry.

It saddens me to realize that Priests, whom we are to love, trust and depend upon for spiritual guidance, can develop a lifelong “deviance” that ruins so many lives.

Just my 2 cents worth – but it was interesting, especially since I am going to finish my BA in Psychology at a Benedictine University locally. I will watch, learn and also “specialize” in Cluster B personality disorders, testing, evaluations, and will BANG MY DRUM LONG AND LOUD, to educate people about these types of people.

Not all priests are abusers, I realize this – however, the cloistered environment and the tenets of the Church, seminary education possibly lends itself to the development of this scandalous trend.

~hugs to all~

Psychos look for enclaves- the enclaves don’t create them- that’smy point. I cannot fathom how living a life truly dedicated to prayer and sacrfice would CREATE a psycho.


Holywatersalt: I’ll “back the claims” in a back-handed way. Psychopaths look for occupations and situations where they can be predators without a lot of interference. A “job” that involves authority, the trust of the potential victims, and a lot of autonomy is perfect. Also, if the structure means that the perpetrator will be believed far more than any victim, that makes it all the better.

Occupations that serve well for the psychopath are lawyer, psychologist, doctor, coach, high-school principal, Boy Scout leader, music teacher, dance instructor, clown specializing in children’s parties, and yes, priests and other members of the clergy, including youth pastors and Sunday School teachers.

Ox Drover

HWS, I agree with Rune on this the psychopaths are already psychopaths when they become “priests”—they FAKE their spiriuality to get into a setting where they can be around kids and have little or NO oversight from anyone.

It isn’t being unable to “marry” for an outlet for their sexuallity, these people are many times “equal opportunity abusers” of both girls and boys. So it isn’t about being “gay” or anything else it is about being a PSYCHOPATH.

Putting these people (who were psychopaths before they became priests) to guide and teach our young people is like putting HITLER IN CHARGE OF THE JEWISH WELFARE LEAGUE.

What better way to supply yourself with a ready supply of victims than be a church leader (in ANY CHURCH)? Because there are so many Catholic schools and boarding schools etc and there is LITTLE OUTSIDE OVERSITE in these institutions it is the perfect playing field for these fiends. They are NOT men of God, they are just “playing at it.”

As for the abuse in the Irish orphanages and schools, in the 1930s there was a lot of “spare the rod and spoil the child” in that culture of beat them until they conform. The sexual abuse was just ICING ON THE CAKE. A kids word was never believed over a man/woman of God who WOULD NOT LIE (of course) so the climate of it all led to the abuses.

It isn’t about not having sex at home being the reason that ANY person cheats, rapes or abuses it is about BEING a psychopath and arranging to have a job that is a job giving control over and access to potential victims.

My own experience runs as follows: I was married to a Catholic (I am also), and when he was caught by me on the internet “just seeing what child pornography was all about”, when I went to the Monseignor, my ex was immediately discharged from Eucharist Minister and from bringing communion to the elderly. I was given counseling that was paid for by the Catholic Church for as long as I needed it, which was a year, and offered free room and board for that period of time at the local retreat house in the city where I was receiving counseling. My ex was offered counseling as well, which he refused. I believe that Pedophiles are already P’s when they enter the church, and that it is just a convenient place to practice their deviancy.


OxDrover said:

Personally, my opinion is that ALL pedophiles are PSYCHOPATHS

I disagree. Not all people who commit sex crimes against children are pedophiles, some are opportunistic predators without a specific predilection for children. Perhaps there is a higher rate of sociopathy among those who actually commit the crime of child molestation. But that does not account for all such crimes: some offenders, particularly pedophiles, are likely to rationalize their behavior with the delusion that the acts were consensual and/or harmless. Those who need an internal rationalization in order to avoid feelings of shame are not sociopaths, as sociopaths do not have any shame to avoid.

Furthermore, according to the research I have read on the topic, not all pedophiles actually offend. Some fraction of the 6.7 billion people in this world are, by some dreadful loss in the genetic or developmental lottery, predominantly sexually attracted to children. Apparently, there are those in that population who recognize the obscenity of engaging children sexually, who feel revulsion and shame over their predisposition, and who vow to never commit any such act.



It’s funny you picked up on the ‘idol’ flattery. And stranger still that when I wrote it I had a Kali-like image float through my mind……Goddess of destruction, so that new life and enlightenment can emerge!

Sadly, I agree with your feelings about my idealistic sense of when all of this evil doing will be blasted away by the light of enlightenment. I don’t see enough individual choices being made, based on the desire to create peace. Let alone on a mass scale. Still and all, I do think that is what it may take. This horrible twist in the genetic well-being of the human race may very well take the enlightenment of at least a statistically significant number of us to be overcome…….weeded out of our genetic/cultural profile so to speak.

Pema Chodron, a buddhist priestess, titled one of her books ‘No Time to Lose’ and she implores the reader to take to heart the magnitude of the individual’s choice for peace, for knowing the self, for waking the ‘f’ up (well, she doesn’t say THAT…but she would if she were me).

To All: as for whether all pedo’s are pp’s. I don’t know if my grandfather, or my stepfather were psychopaths or not. I only remember them through a childs eyes/experience. And neither are around (they both died when I was young). BUT what I do know is that I have deep and long-standing ‘feelings/beliefs’ about love and sex that are completely WRONG–but are kind of imbedded in my emotional and physical body. So, what ever they are, they do horrible damage that is very difficult to undo. And they need to be prosecuted, named, and kept away from children. I personally prefer castration….but that is a whole ‘nother moral discussion (where are JaneSmiths wicked sharp knives?!)


JaneSmith – [they do horrible damage that is very difficult to undo.] feelings/beliefs about love and sex that are completely wrong…Jane I just want you to know that you have been a huge support for me over the past year – you understand me – I know you do .

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