(The article below is copyrighted © 2012 by Steve Becker, LCSW. My use of male gender pronouns is for convenience’s sake and not meant to imply that females aren’t capable of exhibiting the attitudes and behaviors discussed.)
What does it mean to say that someone has sociopathic tendencies, versus full-blown sociopathy, and does the difference even matter?
The simple answer is that someone with sociopathic tendencies will exhibit sociopathic behaviors and attitudes sometimes, while elsewhere he may seem to possess (and, in fact, may possess) a somewhat genuine (if limited and unreliable) capacity and desire to respect others.
In contrast, the full-blown sociopath’s respect for others, when apparently evident, is never really deeply genuine, but rather driven more by expediency or, more specifically, by the lack of any immediate opportunity to benefit from disrespecting or exploiting others.
Another way to say it is that the full-blown sociopath will almost always capitalize on perceived opportunities to exploit others for his own gain, whereas an individual with “sociopath tendencies” is likely to be somewhat less predictably exploitive in his interpersonal relationships.
In my experience, to identify that you are involved with a partial versus full-blown sociopath is not grounds for optimism. So long as sociopathic tendencies are present, their “quantity” seems to me to matter little. In the end, the individual’s prognosis is the same—hopeless. He is no less treatable or curable for the comparatively inconstant expression of his sociopathy.
In some respects it may be more disconcerting to be involved with a partial sociopath than a full-blown one. This is because the partial sociopath’s seeming capacity to be a “real,” sometimes (if selectively) attached human being can serve as a sort of tease—one finds the seemingly less exploitive aspect of his nature even more confusingly impossible to reconcile with the more exploitive one. One seizes on his capacity for “selective humanity,” misjudging it for his potential for ongoing, reliable empathy and respect for others.
Of course this is a pipe-dream, because the partial sociopath’s capacity for “sensitivity,” perhaps even for certain forms of loyalty, is ever-presently compromised by the underlying tug, and ultimate grip, of his underlying sociopathic orientation. He will inevitably, with utter certainty, drift back into his more exploitive mode and exhibit again, at some point in time, the shocking markers of his sociopathy—his defects of empathy in the context of his audaciously violating behaviors.
I want to stress this very carefully: to the extent that someone has sociopathic tendencies, implying that his sociopathy doesn’t necessarily encompass his “whole character” (as in the case of the full-blown sociopath), this is something like comparing two very dangerous, ultimately untreatable cancerous malignancies—the first hasn’t perhaps “metastasized” fully, but is definitely malignant with absolutely no cure and no chance of meaningful remission; whereas the latter shows perhaps evidence of a global invasion, i.e. “sociopathy run uncontrollably wild.”
I’ve worked for several years with a client I regard as having clear-cut sociopathic tendencies and find her to be among the more baffling clients I’ve worked with. There is the strangest, most jarring mix of humanity in her personality, a capacity for generosity, yet alternating with a historical pattern of cunning, lying behaviors and a chilling capacity to comfortably disown remarkable abdications of responsibility.
She has exhibited these dizzying, confusing qualities in her relationship with me. She has lied to my face countless times and produced fantastic, absurd, and obviously specious explanations for behaviors that someone fully unsociopathic would feel anxious and embarrassed to assert. When confronted with her dissimulation, she conveys (and seems to feel) little to no shame, just the knee-jerk inclination to perpetuate and elaborate the deceptions.
She is opportunistic and someone who has “worked the system” in a variety of unethical ways. Ultimately she lacks either the willingness, or capacity, to truly own the varieties of ethically dubious, sometimes alarmingly irresponsible behaviors that continue to sabotage her otherwise seemingly considerable potential.
She is a complex person, a very attractive and seductive individual, and I believe she possesses a dimension within her characterized by seemingly real generosity. At the same time, she can be shamelessly manipulative and deceptive, and can be “counted on” ultimately to be only “unreliable.” She seems destined to leave those in her life periodically stunned by the betrayal of their faith and trust in her.
She will never change. There is a sociopathic element in her character that I believes explains these patterns and that leaves her, in my view, permanently untrustworthy.
I’m interested in readers’ feedback on this subject.
Thesisterhood, when I read the article on the link that Kim Frederick posted, it struck me that entanglements with spaths or ppaths exacerbate pre-existing emotional issues to the point where targets actually begin to develop the personality traits that the spaths have.
I read a thread on another site, recently, where the poster was saying that she felt that she “(has) to manipulate him to get simple needs (met).” Well, this caused me to stop and think about my interactions with both exspaths, and when I was deeply entangled, I resorted to attempts at manipulation for just that very reason – to have basic needs or obligations met because adult responsibility was clearly lacking. Things like utility bills or social obligations or family obligations…..all of these things were not only put on the back burner, but they were dismissed and there was no acknowledgment that these obligations even existed.
Sisterhood, I think that what you “loved” about him was the illusion that he created. I know that both exspaths created illusions that eventually fell apart, and I had to process that fact. I mean, it’s like building a wall out of cooked rice and covering it with plaster. Yeah, it looks like a wall and acts like a wall. But, after a time, the rice either breaks down or dehydrates, again, and the only thing holding up the plaster is the plaster. There’s no CORE of humanity to support the facade, if that makes any sense.
I believe that a person can have multiple “disorders” at the same time. Look at us, for instance. Not a single one of us survivors can say, “I have trust issues, and that’s it.” I have multiple issues and my counseling therapist identified a couple of diagnoses that made sense. I don’t believe that anyone – and, that means anyone – can simply have one, clearcut, simple, and concise diagnosis. Even organic issues (schizophrenia, for instance) have subcategories and additional issues associated with each patient.
Whatever the spath might be diagnosed as doesn’t really matter, at this point, other than on an academic level. Knowing what he is won’t change what he is. It may help you to process some of your experiences, but this academic knowledge won’t undo the illusion that he created, or take back all of the damages that you suffered. Knowing about HIM will become less important as time goes on, and knowing about your Self will become an adventure, of sorts. You’ll be able to apply what you discover to yourself and your boundaries to identify and prevent future entanglements with other potential partners and platonic relationships.
Brightest blessings
I was thinking about this article, last night, and what I find to be consistent across the board is the blatant arrogance that spaths exhibit. It’s not a snooty arrogance of entitled wealth, but an arrogance that centers around their belief that they are the sole inhabitant of their Spath World. They are the Emperor and the only resident, and they know everything about everything whether they actually have practical experience, or not.
The exspath used to say this exact quote whenever he was pontificating, “Are you ready for this?” Wow….as if he had the one-and-only-answer or acceptable observation in the Universe? It’s laughable, now, but it was an unintentional display of his depth of arrogance. And, he would pretend that he knew what he was talking about, and if I pointed out to him that he might be incorrect (I never used the word, “wrong”), he would try to turn the tables around on me and say, “You always talk without knowing what you’re even saying.” He actively attempted to cause me to question my own base of knowledge.
Borderline…..spath tendencies…..narcissist…..WHATEVER. They’re all toxic and draining. And, I can’t abide their games in trade for their acceptance and approval. Ugh and eugh……
Kim, that article has many many very good points to make…it is quite COMMON in fact for two PERSONALITY DISORDERED people to “hook up” together and I call it the FIRE AND GASOLINE relationship because it usually ends up in a BIG EXPLOSION.
Just as there are “levels” of disorders in what is “labeled” BPD, PPD etc. and levels of DYSFUNCTION in us all, I think that many times people who are “labeled” BPD (especially women so labeled) are in FACT not really PERSONALITY DISORDERED (genetically) but more just DYSFUNCTION in the environment in which they were raised. They were not TAUGHT functional ways of interacting.
This is JUST MY OPINION FOLKS, so don’t get your panties in a wad about what I’m going to say.
You can take a dog, just about any breed of dog, and you can raise it in such a way that it will BITE and FIGHT, if you mistreat it enough, frustrate it enough. In other words, it will have a DYSFUNCTIONAL PERSONALITY that is TRAINED into it. Depending on the DNA of the dog (i.e. the breed) it will be more or less dangerously aggressive.
Now, by the same token, you can take other breeds of dogs, and NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO THEY ARE GOING TO BE DANGEROUS AT LEAST AT TIMES and under SOME conditions. You CAN NOT train it out of them.
And there are dogs in between these two extremes. So we (humans) are just the same, we have DNA factors and we have environment factors in how we deal with stress, how we deal with others of our kind, how much we need or desire to be “alpha” in the pack or if we are willing to be “beta” to someone else’s alpha.
A guy at the VA hospital in Little Rock years ago started out with one litter of pups from a reasonably “nice” breed of dog and he bred the most aggressive to the most aggressive and the least aggressive to the least aggressive and in about 20 generations he had TWO TOTALLY DIFFERENT groups of dogs. He had one group that were worse than the worst pit bulls and one group that would wet themselves if you said “boo” all bred from one litter of pups. So DNA does matter in dogs as well as in people.
Unfortunately, with people you can’t generally LOOK at them and say what their DNA is as far as aggression, smarts, truthfulness, etc is. But at the same time, that is the thing that fuels racial prejudices because we want to be able to look at someone else and KNOW something about them….sol people develop prejudices based on physical looks, skin color, hair color, etc. but unfortunately that does NOT work with humans.
One of my husband’s grandsons is a big lover of Pit Bull dogs and he is convinced that it is ONLY how the dog is raised that makes them aggressive. I KNOW he is wrong, but there is no way I can convince him, no matter how many rational arguments I give him, he is NOT GOING TO CHANGE HIS MIND. He refuses to acknowledge that DNA has anything to do with how a dog behaves. Having bred and raised and trained dogs for 40+ years, I know that DNA has a VERY HIGH PERCENTAGE of what a dog becomes.
I also know that in Humans DNA has a lot to do with what we are. How smart we are. How tall we are. What color our eyes are, and how much empathy we are capable of.
The difference is that I can LOOK at a Pit Bull Dog, or a Border Collie and make an INFORMED GUESS at what the dog’s DNA is and what the emotional and instinctive make up of that dog is.
I can NOT look at a human and even begin to make a guess at what the DNA effecting the person’s emotional make up is. I can’t make a guess at how smart they are or what talents they may have.
In choosing a dog as a working dog, I am going to choose a dog that is from a BREED that has the instinct to do what I want it to do. I am not going to get a pit bull dog to herd sheep. I am not going to try to train a Border Collie as a “protection dog” they would be a complete failure as a “police dog.”
I had a neighbor once who raised “catahoula” dogs which are the “pit bull dogs” of stock dogs which are usually used to flush wild cattle or hogs out of the brush in South Texas. I would never use them on sheep, because they would rush in and seize the first sheep and kill it, but for the PURPOSE that they are bred, they are perfect and FEARLESS against a herd of hogs that are trying to kill them. For any other purpose working stock they are worthless and I would also never keep one as a “pet” because of their aggressive nature and unpredictibality.
This neighbor and I had some “words” multiple times about him letting his dogs run loose (on my property) and attack my stock and even once a hired hand, and fortunately they eventually had their place foreclosed and I was able to buy it from the bank, so the problem was solved without bloodshed.
Speaking of two PERSONALITY DISORDERED PEOPLE getting together, I have seen this TIME AND TIME AGAIN and the “loser” in the fight then presented themselves as an “innocent victim”—who then went on to either find another PD partner and rinse and repeat–or they found themselves a TRUE innocent victim to abuse.
Sisterhood, I agree. I think the article is more sympathetic toward the male Narcissist. Also, the Narcissist as rescuing care-giver? WTF? For me, though, after I scratch the surface, it all makes sense. My x couldn’t even take a cat to the humane society….but, he couldn’t spay it either. He avoided the problem of the cat, until we had 22….yes, 22 cats. My 26 year old son still lives with him….hmmm. Co-dependant? Narcissistic? who cares. Trouble.
Me? An adult child of an alcoholic? BPD? C-PTSD? Don’t know. Over-lap, and crazy-making circumstances. I would rather be a C-PTSD survivor, than the much maligned BPD, but, again, it’s all about me taking responsibility for my patterns of behavior and doing every thing I can to make a more productive and happy life for myself. Just say NO to Narcissists. LOL If you aren’t BPD, any prolonged exposure will make you act like one.
Yes, Truthy….they are a legend in their own minds.
Mine suffered from “Walter Mittyism” and I could actually see him slip into his fantastic day-dream. He fell in love, in his dreams. Sigh. It was all too painful to stay in the present, to be in the real with me. Yeah. It was a very painful state of affairs.
I think most of us can say we were the narcissistic rescuing caregiver. Remember, the article is describing two imaginary people. It applied ALL the traits that might appear in these two people for the purposes of illustration.
We were involved with a disordered person because of our own narcissism. Our own emotionally arrested issues. That issue being the need to rescue, fix, save and take responsibility for an adult who should have been doing it themselves.
We were acting from old programming from our childhood where we were taught that we should make everyone happy, then we would be loved in return. puke.
Anytime you are acting from infantile programming, that is narcissism. Even when you have the best intentions, you are still trying to control others. Spaths can smell narcissism. No matter what the type or presentation, narcissists are their favorite food.
The difference is, I think, that an emotionally healthy person exits the relationship….someone with issues, stays, and tries to fix the problem, thinking they somehow have the magic fix, and will eventually succeed. Trauma bond, par excellance.
oh yes, kim…absolutely…
an emotionally healthy person WILL EVENTUALLY
exit the relationship. I see what you are saying
about how someone with internal issues stays…
hence the abusive relationship cycle never ending.
I can see and understand how easily victims can get
trapped into that kind of thinking; especially when there
are threats of physical violence involved. And/or actual
physical violence, itself.
Trauma bond PAR EXCELLENCE: oh yes.
And if you have any other extenuating issues,
that only magnifies it. It’s best to have as little
contact and/or communication with the ppath
as is possible and the sooner the better.
I understand where YOU are coming from too, skylar…
the ‘rescuing caregiver’. Yep, that was me. I admit it.
I was the PERFECT PREY. That’s what “IT” was laughing
at: how charming he is…he can run a con in a blink of an
eye with the ladies…
Very interesting discussion.
Please do continue….
You are feeding my soul.
Dupey
Oxy:
I also saw the exact thing that you describe…two personality disordered people getting together and then one of them claiming to be the victim. That was the OW.
I posted this on another discussion but some of the comments were meant for the discussion here. So i’ll post again so you don’t think that I didn’t respond in case you don’t go by the other discussion again. Happy birthday to Stargazer, Skyler & Louise!
Also thanks for all your responses. I spent along time reading mostly being in so much despair i felt i had nothing to contribute that would be constructive. So thank you for that too. I’m finally coming around I’d say. xoxo
SEVEN SPATH RECOVERY ITEMS TO NOTE:
Hi.
STARGAZER: I certainly relate to the UNBRIDLED JOY comment. Yes. Resentment puts joy out like water on a flame. Something to remind myself when a moment of joy, and they do now and again, from time to time, in rare moments, pass my way and i do the if only”. and I’m angry again. i think the spath stole my joy. Maybe he did. Maybe he didn’t and I gave it up to him. Nonetheless he is certainly not going to bring it back. Im gonna have to get it back myself i believe. Present in the moment. Present in the moment. The present of joy to me from me perhaps? I want my joy back. I miss my joy.
KIM: The EMPTY BOAT analogy is priceless and oxygen providing. Meaning that if I had heard that earlier in this process it may have breathed some life into me sooner or at least for moments. We have a saying in my industry and profession that we use that’s similar, “ALL HAT AND NO CATTLE,” but its more about power than disordered personalities. The empty boat is an image I can grasp. Not allowing the image of the spath driving the boat or being in charge of anything, & ESPECIALLY NOT ME, just as empty space disempowers him. Puts them into near “figment of the imagination” category. A very bad dream that I can wake up from. Too late to run but maybe as the new day rises I can wake up. I have never liked getting up until the sun is warm so it is clear to me that I have a way to go yet. Thats okay. I picture the empty boat. Adrift on an endless sea. bumping around & into things doing damage but nobody is really there. Eventually those boats beach or capsize. A brief headline & the boat is salvaged for scrap. I like it.
ERALYN: ONE PIECE AT A TIME. I hear Eralyn as she said how she wants to start at a running pace. I now have those fits and starts. And welcome them. Like a very cold engine on a freezing morning trying to turn over, warming the air in the heater and ever so slowly melting the ice and snow from the windows. The car feels warm. I put it in reverse. Step on the gas. Back out of the driveway. Shift into drive and the engine stalls. I should have waited five more minutes as the heat stops and the icy cold immediately fills the air in the car again. Oh yes. Lots of that going on and I lie down and rest. But I have a pretty good idea I will get up tomorrow. And that is progress as I used think I could never get up again. And then when I did, that I wouldn’t and don’t want to do that again. I will instead lie here until i die from old age. Still waiting btw. I have tried so many times to start over on all the pieces all at once & collapse every time under the strain. One piece at a time is my latest strategy.
BABY STEPS. Shit I wasn’t designed for baby steps. Yes I know what to do. But I want to get it over with and for some reason this part of the journey does not allow that. My brain is asking to be rewired a bit and it just can’t be done on autopilot. Maybe because autopilot had something to do with where i landed. No, this cant be done by will power alone. The process just won’t allow that part of plain and sheer determination alone to make it happen.
The need for INTROSPECTION, being present in the moment, dealing with what is instead of what or how I just want it to be is demanded of me from the universe somehow. In hind site it was almost as if I used to have the “will it and make it so” power and that power is on vacation or retired permanently. Only time will tell. But yes, I have to say vacuum, clearly say it a couple times and it can take three days for me to go to the closet and extract the vacuum cleaner, at which point i let it sit outside the closet, the next few days I will tidy up here and there AND clear the floor. Sometime in the next week I may actually plug it in and turn it on.
It’s rudimentary behaviors that need to be prodded and cajoled. Open the mail, brush, floss, shower, answer the phone (I ESPECIALLY HATE ANSWERING THE PHONE), write it down, make a list, return that call, pay the phone bill, see my lawyer, pay my lawyer, fix something to eat, one step at a time, oh get out of bed, get cleaned up, leave the house, it goes on & on & on. Each one of those things can take days or even weeks to accomplish. i at least open the mail now. There were months and months when I didn’t even do that. But I have to appreciate that the thought vacuum even occurs at all. I didn’t used to care if the floor was clean & I do now. Progress. Not leaps & bounds. I am probably the only one who sees it at all since my friends still compare old Lil & this Lil we don’t recognize Lil. They’re all pulling for the old Lil, but we should just as well have a funeral for her. I am forever changed. There is no doubt about that. How I change, what I change to is what’s important & the jury is still out.
I’m working seriously on “PLACE OXYGEN MASK ON SELF BEFORE HELPING OTHERS” right now. I never needed help before. I was the helper. So this is a 180 DEGREE perspective of the world for me. OLD HABITS EMERGE EVEN THROUGH EXCRUCIATING PAIN, BLINDING RAGE, DEBILITATING DEPRESSION AND NEOPOVERTY, AND THEY DIE HARD. In fact we resort to old habits almost always in times of stress. But part of that old me also wonders if after being so helpless that helping someone else even if briefly can’t be rehabilitating as well”.. Or is that my core survival instinct kicking in again saying lets do this. We know how to do that and life could be normal again if we just starting acting like we used to? We being not all of us or the royal we but the old and new Lil trying to unsplit perhaps.
I do reach out now from time to time & say I’m having a truly bad day. There isn’t always a reason. The bad day rolls on for a variety of reasons or no reason at all. It runs over me like a freight train at full speed between stations. I am dragged for miles until I pull the cord & say help me somebody. yes again. I need to get away, out, a drink, a walk, a drive, a movie, a ballgame, anything just help get me out of my head. The few friends I have now know what I’m saying & they do all they can to help. If they are tired of it they don’t say. I try & spread it around so I don’t abuse anyone person. They also know I have a dislike for myself when I do it but they know & I know I have to ask in order to survive.
WISDOM. There’s a lot of that on this site from the various souls who have traveled this journey before me, along side me, the relapses we all incur, the anger, fear, self loathing, hatred we experience, the people who will come after us. I read recently that we should all “USE THE EXPERIENCE OF OTHERS MISTAKES. LIFE IS TOO SHORT TO MAKE THEM ALL YOURSELF.” All building on the knowledge base realtime as we build it. Build it and they will come. And as Donna and Liane & Steve, all the other authors and all of us have done & are doing, we’ve MADE IT SO.
Much love from Lillian on her 51st birthday”.. xoxoxo