UPDATED FOR 2020 — The Lovefraud reader “Flicka” copied us on the following email thread. The exchange is a good example of how sociopaths use every opportunity to assert control, divide and conquer family members, and engage in character assassination. So how do you deal with nasty emails from sociopaths?
By way of background, Flicka was married to a sociopath. Unfortunately, all of her five children inherited their father’s disorder and also became sociopaths. Flicka’s children are now adults, and she is estranged from all of them. So now, when she should be doting on her grandchildren, she barely sees them.
One son, whom we’ll call “Bill,” was married to a Vietnamese woman, whom we’ll call “Lang.” They have a daughter, whom we’ll call “Sally.”
Three years ago, when Bill left Lang, he also left his wife with no furniture. Lang, her mother, and Sally, then 4 years old, had no choice but to sleep on bare floors. When Flicka found out, she gave Lang all of her furniture. Needless to say, Bill was infuriated.
So here’s the email exchange from earlier this year — an example of nasty emails from sociopaths:
From: Flicka
To: Lang
Subject: Mary PoppinsI happened to see on TV tonight a preview of the Mary Poppins musical show coming on Feb. 3rd (I think) and it looks fabulous. It made me think of Sally and how badly I would like her to see and experience that wonderful show with all its singing, dancing and beautiful costumes. I would love to treat her and you to that experience but maybe she’s a little too young. Perhaps you could mention it to Bill in case he would be willing to take her.
From: Lang
To: Bill
Subject: EventsWill you take her to this show? Vietnamese Tet will be on Feb 9th. As usual, we do cooking and worship for ancestors. I want Sally here a day earlier and return that day to you by pick her up on saturday the week after. Agree?
From: Bill
To: Lang
Subject: RE: EventsI doubt it. Those things are stupidly expensive. I was going to take her to Disney on ice but the tickets were over 100 each. I don’t see a problem with Tet but remind me closer to the date I can’t commit to it this early.
From: Lang
To: Bill
Subject: RE: EventsFeb 3rd is sunday and that sunday night belongs to your week. As she wanted to treat me and Sally, so i’ll take her if you want. But if you want to take her there, i’ll ask her if she would like to transfer that ticket to you. Just let me know as soon as you can for ticket arrangement. I’ll inform you a week ahead of time about Tet. Thanks Lang
From: Bill
To: Lang
Subject: RE: EventsYou know how I feel about Mom being around Sally. If you want to take her and ONLY to the theater then I am ok with that. But no before or after time at Mom’s house. She is too negative to be an influence on Sally in a positive way.
From: Lang
To: Bill
Subject: Mary PoppinsAnd you told me you never forbid Sally to see your Mom? Read your email again. What more evidence do I need to prove?
From: Bill
To: Lang
Subject: RE: Mary PoppinsYes I don’t like her being around her but obviously I can’t and wouldn’t forbid her. That was one incident 2 years ago. Get real. If you just want to take my Mother side and fight with me then we both know how this is going to end. Why would you follow my mother’s path and end up angry, sad, alone with no friends at all?
From: Lang
To: Bill
Subject: RE: Mary PoppinsAnything more obvious than that? LOL
Negative communication
What could be more fun and wholesome for a little girl than a trip to see Mary Poppins? But Bill is negative from start to finish. It’s typical of nasty emails from sociopaths.
First, he says the tickets are too expensive — ignoring the fact that Flicka offered to pay.
Then he says he doesn’t want Sally to be around his mother.
Then he claims that he’s not forbidding Sally to see his mother, but alludes to the terrible things that will happen if Lang decides to let Sally visit Grandma against his wishes. Bill manages to threaten his ex-wife and smear his mother all in one sentence
Emotional No Contact
So if you are subject to nasty emails from sociopaths, what can you do about it? In reality, nothing.
You can’t change the sociopath. You can only change you and your responses.
When No Contact is not an option — as when you are trying to co-parent with a sociopath — the next best thing is Emotional No Contact. You train yourself not to react emotionally to the sociopath’s aggression. And make no mistake, Bill’s communication style is aggression.
Acceptance
How do you do this? You accept that sociopaths are what they are.
Acceptance does not mean that you condone a sociopath’s behavior, treatment of you, irresponsibility or cruelty. I am also not suggesting that you stay in an abusive situation. If you are being abused in any way, you must get out.
But if you still have to deal with the sociopath after you have escaped, it helps to accept that a sociopath is what he or she is, and that the individual’s behavior will never change.
A lot of the internal angst and tension that you feel is the result of wanting the sociopath to be different. When you give up wanting him or her to change, you have more energy and strength to deal with the day-to-day curve balls the sociopath throws at you.
Your objective is to get to the point that when you receive nasty emails from sociopaths, you just roll your eyes. You ignore all the taunting, and respond only to actionable information:
It’s okay for Sally to see Mary Poppins.
Lovefraud initially posted this article on June 2, 2014.
Her vacation love became a con
Having recently been forced to re-read several thousand emails from my ex, I know all to well how sociopaths attempt to assert control and attack our character. I must admit I still get that knot in my stomach when I read some of the vicious and totally untrue vitriole that he is so well known for, but I am getting better at letting it go and realizing that this is who and how he is, and in in no way reflects who I am. I have also learned over the years to just ignore and only reply to what is pertinent when dealing with our child. This angers him too, and is usually followed with even nastier emails designed to start an argument. It’s hard to not too defend yourself, but in the long run I know it realy doesn’t matter what I say, he will believe and say what he wants.
So true. There is no point whatsoever in trying to appease them. They will play out their sickness, no matter what you do.
I found the only strategy for ‘dealing’ with them, if you have to have contact, is the boring, no emotion, deal with only the core of the matter approach. Even if it initially inflames them (everything does), it doesn’t ‘feed’ them.
Emotional reactions are one of their favorite foods.
Donna, Thanks for posting my story. I have long ago gone NC with all my children and this Mary Poppins extravaganza was just for my precocious,sweet grand daughter and her mother. Little did I know at the time, that my son’s evil traits had already transformed my ex daughter-in-law to where she felt it necessary to have HIS approval! So far do the tentacles of socipathy reach!
Dear Flicka, Your article is a clear example of the suffering that I encounter.
I think I am mostly recovered from the headtrips done to me by my ex husband. But I am here on LF because my relationship with my daughter has disintegrated and I am find myself unable to process the pain.
Here’s my problem:
It was painful but not difficult to conclude that my ex is a sociopath. He fits the profile and he tried to set me up to be murdered, and have it look like an accident. He also murdered animals, so not much of a leap to understand that he had the mindset to murder me. Once I understood what kind of animal my ex was, I was able to cut him out of my life and rebuild my world in a different life. Not to trivialize what he did, the examples are horrendous and match many stories here on LF.
But my daughter is my baby, my dearest love, the reason I endured so much destruction from my ex. She is MY child, he adopted her with my consent given by fraud. I don’t want to believe that she is like him.
She does/says horrible things to/about me, similar to him. She segments people off (doesn’t allow them to meet or talk with each other) and tells them lies about me. The lies she tells are actually MY history, they are what happened to ME, in MY childhood. She tells people that it happened to her. But I can prove it did not.
Now, near 30, she has pretty much excluded me out of her life, telling people that I am toxic, that I refuse to admit how I abused her, that I am manipulative, that I am trying to force her to pay to support my lifestyle, that I order her around, that I starved her as a child, forced her to work and give me her wages, that she had to pay for her food/clothes/car and life expenses. NONE of this is true for her. People don’t have to take my word for it, I can prove that I provided for her entire life including all her years at university. (Note: while we were living with my ex, that she has always excluded me from milestones in her life, which I thought was possible because of how he gave her approval for disrespecting me.)
The timing of her complete rejection of me happened after I refused to abide by her conditions, that I could visit her but I could not speak to others except general subjects, such as the weather, that I was to keep my face looking down because she said I stared at people and made them uncomfortable. That I was not to speak about the past at all, that she had “forgiven” me of the past. What she was insisting was that I act ashamed for who I am. But I am not ashamed, I am quite accomplished and bad things were done TO ME, NOT by me.
She has defined me, not based on what I have done, but she’s told a story that she uses to get people to feel sorry for her and not hold her accountable for her misbehaviors because as she explains, she “loses it” since she was so abused. (at the same time, she does not hold my ex accountable)
I have gone from my ex defining me as the “crazy wife” to my dearest daughter defining me as the “crazy mother”. And if I don’t submit, then I am shunned.
I don’t want to believe her to be sociopathic. She has fears. She is afraid of heights. Aren’t sociopaths fearless?
I did have a terrible childhood and did not allow my family in our lives, I didn’t not want them to have access to harm her. That is why I told her to stay away from them and why she knows some of my childhood traumas, because I gave her examples of things they did and why she needed to protect herself from them. My sisters are borderline, my brother is a pedophile.
My daughter used to do such kind things, such considerate things. She gave me Chrismas and birthday presents. Sent Mothers Day messages. Not anymore. As she has gotten older, she ridicules that those things carry an emotional meaning. Now she is just flat out cruel, says I am only her mother because I gave birth but do not deserve to be called mom.
Is it possible that she has PTSD? That she has learned from my ex how to be controlling and dominating because she feels vulnerable? She takes Adderall and I hate it, she seems to be uninhibited when she takes it and does not think about what she is saying. Is it possible that she is this way because of Adderall?
Flicka,
How do you process the way your kids are towards you? What do you say to people who ask how your kids are doing? I feel so guilty that I did this to my daughter, that I knew enough to protect her from my birth family, only to expose her completely to the man who ruined me. I actually spent the early years of my marriage doing all I could to enable their relationship, which was used to “divide and conquer” her from me. Is it possible that she is still responding from his smear campaign of me? IS there nothing a parent can say that will break the spell of the smear campaign? At what point would I know that she really is “one of THEM”, at the point of no return?
I know what she is doing to me is not right, I just don’t know WHY she is doing it, and if there is a way to reach her. I can’t stand the thought of giving up on her. Then I would really feel depressed, that Would feel like I was abandoning her, and then I would deserve to be treated this way by her.
I would be grateful for any insights on how your manage your inner emotions about how things have turned out with your children. I find this situation much harder than even the nightmare of my marriage and divorce from a sociopath.
Thank you Flicka.
It sounds like your ex has been doing Parental Alienation. Yes, this is a controversial accusation, but I have heard convincingly that it does happen. Sociopaths like to alienate the children as a way of winning, and taking away the children when they do not get 100% custody. It is really a form of brainwashing not unlike what happens in cults. Below is a link to a video which gives a good explanation of how it happens and why it works.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ne07rdebgtY
Honestly, at her age, I am not sure it is reversible. Hopefully as she becomes a parent, she will gain more perspective. When adults realize that their parents alienated them falsely, they are very angry at the alienating parent. But in my experience, they may also be ashamed and avoid the alienated parent.
I hope it gets better for you.
Escapefor1
That was a very disturbing video. It’s mostly condemning mothers saying they are the ones who perpetrate parental alienation because mother has NPD and is losing their source.
What about parents who are trying to protect their child from a sociopath? Yes, technically Alienation. But done in order to protect the life of the child. I want my daughter to know and stay away from people who I know would murder her if they thought they could inherit her estate.
I think of my daughter as more Stockholm syndrome. He’d be an absolute jerk and then turn around and be Santa Claus.
It’s getting worse and thus, it’s why I am so emotional and seeking guidance. Thank you for taking the time to share with me.
Sounds like you’re recovering now that you see things more realistically. Once one admits sociopathy, the pieces of the puzzle fit so neatly into place. It is onlyto ourselves er must answer. Good luck on your journey.
Dear not. How I feel for/with you! I do not have the answers you so desperatly seek. I tried with all my heart, soul and knowledge to raise 5 wonderful children; I was so proud to give them to the world when they went off to college and adulthood but over the decades, I felt them drift into immorality and stupidity. They became so disrespectful that I found I was happier not being in their company; I could no longer sit in silence. When my youngest finally threatened me with family committal (!), I went NC with them upon my attorney’s advice. Since then (5 years), I’ve gradually had to accept what they are and now accept that they are emotionally dead to me.This has been horribly trying but I had to ‘get there’ in order to survive. The Serenity prayer has helped alot as well as my favorite poem, “The Man In The Glass” which hangs on my bath wall. You have to get to the point where you accept their emotional death and that process is never really complete but it releases some of the feelings of anguish.I have come to accept that there are some things one simply cannot change, no matter how much we want it.
I surely hope you find the strength to start all over again. For me, disabled and age 77, this is very difficult since I have no relatives and most friends are either sickly themselves or simply wash their hands of all of it…it’s too much for most to handle. But life teaches us many things and this has certainly been one of humility and the futility of my once-promising life. But my concsience is at peace as I continue always learning and spreading information.I no longer keep up appearances; I no longer keep silent about this devastating illness!
Best of luck, my heart is with you! Lovefraud is a wonderful site for reassurance.
Thank you for replying Flicka, sorry I am so late to see your post. I wrote and felt so upset about what I was finally acknowledging to myself that I kinda spun into a down mode and then I lost where I had posted.
Life does teach us many things and I hold on to what my core values and beliefs, that in the end, the only thing that matters is LOVE, and we have to start with ourselves. Self respect and holding ourselves accountable (NOT the same thing as blame). We are to be self responsible, and when we make a wrong choice, we are to make amends if possible, and to learn a lesson, whatever lesson that is.
My daughter makes bizarre accusations, some that I know are wrong because they come directly from my history. My bones were broken, she’s never has a broken bone. I have scars because I needed stitches, she’s never had that kind of cut, she has NO scars. But I did wonder, during my deep depression, was I abusive and didn’t remember it? I remember feeing numb, I was kinda in a daze. Did I have amnesia too? When I was 19, I’ve suffered amnesia when I was in a car accident and hit the windshield. I came out of it hours later, it was like waking up. All of a sudden I started getting my cognitive function back. Do people suffer amnesia during depression? Is she right and I was abusive?
It’s not me who’s gone NC. It’s my daughter although I did stop running after her, trying to appease her because it wasn’t working! I am pretty certain she has been monitoring LF because she uses the same terminology, which doesn’t sound like what someone would learn from a therapist.
I am sorry you don’t feel able to find the strength to start over. I am 20 years younger and I don’t either. I have been very sick and for years, I was unable to work, I was a MESS. I am MUCH better now but my career days are over.
I had hoped to find peace of mind and put things in perspective. I had hoped to make amends to my daughter for not fulfilling the childhood I wanted/imagined for her. I am heartsick that she calls me toxic and manipulative but refuses to explain what it refers to or uses the word in such broad definition, such as her definition of manipulation is anything that does not originate with her. They are my words but she does not use them they way I do so it’s quite confusing.
I wish I had the explanation that made it all make sense. Once I realized my now ex husband was a sociopath, then all made sense, why he sometimes seemed narcissistic but narcissism didn’t explain all of him. Sociopathy does. Once I knew what animal he was, then I was able to create a recovery plan for ME.
Thank you for speaking up. I am sorry your children have chosen to be who they are. They are missing the opportunities to gain wisdom, wisdom that would put them ahead of others as they journey through life.
This sort of email is all too familiar to me. When I told me ex I wanted a divorce he stopped talking to me. I knew he would – he’d done it so many times over the years, every single time we disagreed or argued so this time I simply followed suit. What followed over the next two years while we went through a highly acrimonious divorce were hundreds of emails and texts – all of which I kept.
Right from the start I resisted the urge to reply instantly and would wait until the following day and until I had sent it to my sister who would give her’s and her partner’s views and by the time all this had taken place I would have calmed down. Emotions were running so high it would be far too easy to say something foolish, inflammatory or even dangerous in terms of litigation.
To begin with I found it terribly difficult. I can be a little over-wordy as it is but I gradually learned. Less is definitely more! As you say, again and again on here – the absolutely best policy with these people is NO CONTACT. However, if you’re not in a position to do that – as I wasn’t then – keep it to an absolute minimum, remove all emotion and keep it on a needs must basis only.
For me, I just had to keep reminding myself of my goals – Sell the house and get the kids out. Keep them safe in the meantime (as he refused to move out). Get the divorce through asap with the least damage possible. Move away and move on.
I would write long epistles, read and re-read them, edit them and then send them to my sister for a sanity check. I would say to myself – w”ill this help me achieve my goals or hinder?”
However hard it was sometimes to swallow and ignore his utter tripe, I did. I really don’t know how sometimes, particularly when he wrote about the children but somehow I stayed calm. He tried everything. Guilt-tripping, lies, aggresion, more lies, threats, more lies, utter delution and yet more lies but I never rose to it.
It is an incredibly hard thing to do but I am proud of myself for finally standing up to the controlly bully that he is. It must have driven him insane. He doesn’t type quickly like me and yet he would sometimes send huge long emails (and letters to the solicitor), that would have taken him hours and he would either get no reply or a simple one liner to one point if there were something that needed to be dealt with. The rest would be ignored.
Whew, like others I know how those emails can get to us. I wish I could post some here but I am always afraid he will find them and well I guess I still fear what he might do even after over 2 years apart. The ones he sent were absolutely ridiculous and over the top crazy and abusive, threatening and did I mention CRAZY?
One thing I did was to keep copies. When I went to court for my restraining order I took them all and put the worst ones on top for the judge to see. I also took them to my pastor because my ex was pretty good at fooling him too. They both absolutely couldn’t believe he would write such things. It was essentially the only proof that he really was someone different than he seemed to be around them. I also wrote stupid things he did like waiting for me in a lawn chair at church next to my car one day while I was out to lunch with friends so he could tell me he needed to see our dog, to arrange “visitation” visits. Yeah RIGHT. Anyway, I wrote the time and date down of that and also the time he followed me and had witnesses from the office next to ours about how he waited outside for me to get off and then followed me. Even writing this I am sickened and even though I keep the emails in case I need them someday I tried to read some of them the other day and just got those same old awful feelings. I still dream about being back with him and they are nightmarish and I wake up next to my husband and feel so wonderful that I am not with the spath anymore. My point is to keep EVERYTHING.
“Less is definitely more! As you say, again and again on here ”“ the absolutely best policy with these people is NO CONTACT. However, if you’re not in a position to do that ”“ as I wasn’t then ”“ keep it to an absolute minimum, remove all emotion and keep it on a needs must basis only”.
Exactly! I did the same thing and STILL it was painful to read the replies but much better than trying to get in an intelligent with a 1 year old.
Absolutely Linette!
We moved (finally) in March and I found a huge file of all our emails and print-outs of texts. Even now I flinched at some of the content but I could also see how utterly delusional they were and how trying to reason with him would be a total and utter waste of time, energy and emotion.
Thank goodness I no longer have to engage! Bliss!
Yes I am SO grateful every day for that! Whenever I remember how much time I “wasted” on him, I TRY to remember that it could have been my whole life! It was 11 years for us. My name is on a checking account that he uses because I forgot to include it in the divorce papers. I haven’t taken it off because I will have to contact him. The bank refuses to take my name off without his consent and I NEVER use it!!! I am thinking about paying my lawyer to take care of it!
Well I was with my ex for 24 years – 22 or those married. I don’t remember when I started to see cracks but it was fairly early on. I rarely think about the time I ‘wasted’ because if we weren’t together I wouldn’t have two beautiful children. And you’re right – it could have been worse! I’m young enough to start again!
I have a wonderful partner now, a gentle man and gentelman and am very, very happy. Please god I have a good few years agead of me to enjoy my second chance!
Re the bank account. I guess a ‘checking’ account is like our current account. I had a joint account with my ex many years ago. I never used it, never had a cheque book or bank card. He set it up for our bills – otherwise we had separate accounts.
What I didn’t know though – until I had to get a credit rating for the divorce – was that he had defualted on the account. It wasn’t a vast amount of money – around £700.00 but it has meant a dirty great red blob on my credit rating which means I can’t get a mortgage – even the tiny one I needed to top up the capital from our house sale so that I oculd buy a house for myself and the kids.
In his court papers he tried to suggest that I could get (and afford) an eighty thousand pound mortgage – while he said he couldn’t get one at all – hence his argument that he should get 55% of everything. He also suggested he ought to have half my pension and also possibly have to claim spousal maintenance from me!!!
All of the above based on the fact I had a half decent job and he claimed he was unable to work – which was of course just one of the many lies. I work as a PA, earning well for what I do but it is limited and no, I couldn’t anywhere near afford an 80k mortgage!
If you can, I would get rid of the account – sooner the better – as you never know what he may be up to with it.
I’ve been divorced from my spath for 10 yrs now, and have essentially raised 3 children on my own. Our two oldest sons (19 and 15) do not maintain a relationship with their father. He was very controlling of them, and they chose to break away and stay away– which actually suited him just fine, as it gave him an easy out for financially supporting older teenagers–beyond the pittance of a court ordered support payment(cars, insurance, college..etc)..the caveat, of course,.. was it suited him just fine, ..so long as… he could smear me in court and to friends..that it was MY fault. Our daughter, 13..is a different story…so far, she adores him..he uses her as his window into private matters (and trivial) events that go on in my house, and she obliges him for the emotional alms he’ll throw her way to do so..Looking back, I really can’t believe the time and effort he put into his con..I am NOT kidding when I say his emails resembled small dissertations..2-3 pages long..SINGLE SPACED. At the beginning, I reacted, I thought I had to defend the lies, smears etc.. eventually I stopped..I got myself an email editor, of sorts…and responded a day or two later.. and ONLY if any of it required a response..ie schedules for the kids… which it RARELY did, as I have always had primary custody..(despite his trying to sue for such).. spaths are VERY VERY good at their cons.. NC, if at all possible keeps you OUT of the game.. I think, eventually, my daughter will see the light, and it will be a very sad day for her..I let her have, whatever kind of relationship she wants with him, and if and when her visits become too hurtful, (being with him, yet feeling so alone), .. she hopefully will have the strength to walk away as well.
You’re doing the right thing regarding your daughter. It has to be their decision (unless serious abuse or violence come into it. To begin with my ex just cut my son out. I think in some way he blamed him for our split and ultimately the distruction of his perfect little set up – his mask, his financial stability. It was immediately after my ex assaulted my son that I said enough’s enough and asked for a divorce but truth is we’d already separated. I’d told him 4 months prior that the marriage was over, he’d been sleeping around and by then I knew he was a liar and cheat and he’d been using the money I’d inherited from my auntie to take other women out, stay in hotels and all sorts. What he did to our son was just the final strawer but he stopped talking to him then and there and hasn’t spoken to him since. It was another 8 months or so before he stopped talking to our daughter and privately I was really worried how it would affect her moving forward to remain ‘friends’ with him and also how it would affect her relationship with her brother but that dilema was removed two Summers ago and he’s not spoken to either of them since.
I used to find it hard to stomach the smear campaign but over time I’ve learned that actually most sensbile people see through it and those who don’t – don’t matter.
So well put, Donna. As I was reading the email exchange – and I did not have children in common with my ex-“insanity” spouse – I could feel my blood pressure rising and the memories of crazy exchanges.
You have surely come a long way and I aspire to that calm reason. There is a joke about not handling “stupid” well, but in life with these creatures, it’s the absurdity of non-reason that is the grabber.
I thank all the respondents, too. It is both sad and comforting to realize so many experience the eerily strange and bizarre communications.