UPDATED FOR 2020 — The Lovefraud reader “Flicka” copied us on the following email thread. The exchange is a good example of how sociopaths use every opportunity to assert control, divide and conquer family members, and engage in character assassination. So how do you deal with nasty emails from sociopaths?
By way of background, Flicka was married to a sociopath. Unfortunately, all of her five children inherited their father’s disorder and also became sociopaths. Flicka’s children are now adults, and she is estranged from all of them. So now, when she should be doting on her grandchildren, she barely sees them.
One son, whom we’ll call “Bill,” was married to a Vietnamese woman, whom we’ll call “Lang.” They have a daughter, whom we’ll call “Sally.”
Three years ago, when Bill left Lang, he also left his wife with no furniture. Lang, her mother, and Sally, then 4 years old, had no choice but to sleep on bare floors. When Flicka found out, she gave Lang all of her furniture. Needless to say, Bill was infuriated.
So here’s the email exchange from earlier this year — an example of nasty emails from sociopaths:
From: Flicka
To: Lang
Subject: Mary PoppinsI happened to see on TV tonight a preview of the Mary Poppins musical show coming on Feb. 3rd (I think) and it looks fabulous. It made me think of Sally and how badly I would like her to see and experience that wonderful show with all its singing, dancing and beautiful costumes. I would love to treat her and you to that experience but maybe she’s a little too young. Perhaps you could mention it to Bill in case he would be willing to take her.
From: Lang
To: Bill
Subject: EventsWill you take her to this show? Vietnamese Tet will be on Feb 9th. As usual, we do cooking and worship for ancestors. I want Sally here a day earlier and return that day to you by pick her up on saturday the week after. Agree?
From: Bill
To: Lang
Subject: RE: EventsI doubt it. Those things are stupidly expensive. I was going to take her to Disney on ice but the tickets were over 100 each. I don’t see a problem with Tet but remind me closer to the date I can’t commit to it this early.
From: Lang
To: Bill
Subject: RE: EventsFeb 3rd is sunday and that sunday night belongs to your week. As she wanted to treat me and Sally, so i’ll take her if you want. But if you want to take her there, i’ll ask her if she would like to transfer that ticket to you. Just let me know as soon as you can for ticket arrangement. I’ll inform you a week ahead of time about Tet. Thanks Lang
From: Bill
To: Lang
Subject: RE: EventsYou know how I feel about Mom being around Sally. If you want to take her and ONLY to the theater then I am ok with that. But no before or after time at Mom’s house. She is too negative to be an influence on Sally in a positive way.Â
From: Lang
To: Bill
Subject: Mary PoppinsAnd you told me you never forbid Sally to see your Mom? Read your email again. What more evidence do I need to prove?
From: Bill
To: Lang
Subject: RE: Mary PoppinsYes I don’t like her being around her but obviously I can’t and wouldn’t forbid her. That was one incident 2 years ago. Get real. If you just want to take my Mother side and fight with me then we both know how this is going to end. Why would you follow my mother’s path and end up angry, sad, alone with no friends at all?
From:Â Lang
To:Â Bill
Subject:Â RE: Mary PoppinsAnything more obvious than that? LOL
Negative communication
What could be more fun and wholesome for a little girl than a trip to see Mary Poppins? But Bill is negative from start to finish. It’s typical of nasty emails from sociopaths.
First, he says the tickets are too expensive — ignoring the fact that Flicka offered to pay.
Then he says he doesn’t want Sally to be around his mother.
Then he claims that he’s not forbidding Sally to see his mother, but alludes to the terrible things that will happen if Lang decides to let Sally visit Grandma against his wishes. Bill manages to threaten his ex-wife and smear his mother all in one sentence
Emotional No Contact
So if you are subject to nasty emails from sociopaths, what can you do about it? In reality, nothing.
You can’t change the sociopath. You can only change you and your responses.
When No Contact is not an option — as when you are trying to co-parent with a sociopath — the next best thing is Emotional No Contact. You train yourself not to react emotionally to the sociopath’s aggression. And make no mistake, Bill’s communication style is aggression.
Acceptance
How do you do this? You accept that sociopaths are what they are.
Acceptance does not mean that you condone a sociopath’s behavior, treatment of you, irresponsibility or cruelty. I am also not suggesting that you stay in an abusive situation. If you are being abused in any way, you must get out.
But if you still have to deal with the sociopath after you have escaped, it helps to accept that a sociopath is what he or she is, and that the individual’s behavior will never change.
A lot of the internal angst and tension that you feel is the result of wanting the sociopath to be different. When you give up wanting him or her to change, you have more energy and strength to deal with the day-to-day curve balls the sociopath throws at you.
Your objective is to get to the point that when you receive nasty emails from sociopaths, you just roll your eyes. You ignore all the taunting, and respond only to actionable information:
It’s okay for Sally to see Mary Poppins.
Lovefraud initially posted this article on June 2, 2014.
Her vacation love became a con
Thanks for this thread and topic Donna! Very relevant in my life at this point.. P husband has kept me and my father busy with vitriolic emails full of lies, the back and forth went on for about 15 years; it seems he was doing the same at work too. Now we ignore ALL such emails and text messages.
Like Flicka and NotWhatHeSaidofMe, my son who I brought up amid great difficulty doing my best to protect him from P abuse and give him the best possible in life investing all my effort, time, energy everything into his childhood (and I did not know about Ps till 3 years back so had not learnt how to disengage from P then) is at age 17 becoming as abusive, emotionally dead, manipulative, dominating, threatening, physically intimidating (towards me only)… he has become a smooth liar, natural at word salad, never apologising, instead deflecting conversation by counter accusations that are completely irrelevant and even comparing the P favourably with me… even while he knows P is completely indifferent to him, has physically and emotionally abused him thru his childhood, even knowing how he is in affairs with his students and kept those much higher in priority, while I have had only the son as my priority…further, his behaviour gets worse with any success (just like the situation is with P husband)…
So yes, this is a bitter pill to swallow..but I think, we have to let go emotionally and do whatever is our duty… find our own peace and not expect it coming from the relationship with the child/ children…..
There is a strong genetic component to this problem as I saw this dynamic with my father-in-law, his son (my husband), and now in my son…. atleast we know now what we are dealing with and will be able to live with minimum damage to self and child by keeping unnecessary interaction or expectations to a minimum..
Thanks again Donna..
Donna,
Great example of sociopathic behavior. Thank you for using this example to educate us about getting to the point of fully realizing and then accepting their behavior so we can make healthy decisions for ourselves and our children.
The go around with a sociopath is one to make you sick…..all that spinning….my marriage was to a malignant narcissist although relationships afterward were with a sociopath…
I was fortunate:
Happily, my divorce from the malignant narcissist was pretty much the way I wanted it. He hardly paid any attention to our daughter and since he didn’t have to pay much in child support, he was easy to deal with. He knew if he played it cool he wouldn’t be taken back for more money.
He did at one point start to go on and on about my daughter’s weight gain as if all I fed her was junk food. I finally blasted him and told him to stop the sh*t and shut his mouth about it and to stop acting like his paltry payment was gold. Well, he never expected that and he promptly stopped all fat talk…..
Jerk…then when my daughter ended up in drug rehab, he came once and the counselor said to me that he was a malignant narcissist and needed to get his own counseling on his alcohol addition.
He never sees his grandson. He can take a plane as he has the money but doesn’t care about anyone but himself.
My daughter although clean for years and a good mother has ongoing issues with abandonment and she is borderline personality disordered.
I am there for my grandson and give him all the positive and emotional support I can. He is the eternal energizer bunny of love and happiness….
Now my daughter let a guy she knew for one month move in….although she knew of him as a child….so on that basis, she feels he is ok….I know spend my days protecting my grandson in any way I can….
got rid of my sociopath long ago but keep no contact even if he tried to contact me.
Keep on keeping on is a saying from the 70’s but it fits today…
Keep your visions and hold on to hope…
So true but a mother’s love and hope runs so very deep that seeing one’s own children in an objective light becomes a handicap to the inevitable NC. Had I known then what I now know, I would have left the children with him when I got divorced and perhaps gone on to a new successful life of my own. Yes, my children all have resultant addictions ranging from food to alchohol to pain meds! So far they’ve ‘managed’ but their consciences may get the better of them after I’m gone.
Yes, strange as it may seem, experts concur that abused children tend to support their abusers rather than their ‘saviours’.
I wanted to reply as to what I see as why this is. Do others have other thoughts? (Apologies in advance if my earlier similar reply posts. Just as I finished it, it disappeared, so I am starting over.)
In the case of one child of my ex-N/P H, I think two things mostly account for this.
1. He was fun dad, being irresponsible, juvenile, and creative; while I being responsible and having to say “no”, as well as too busy doing it all, was less-fun mom.
2. Our daughter seemed to believe he needed taking care of. If she did not do it, who would? I did most of the caretaking and virtually all of the bread-winning in the family while he was basically unemployed until he absolutely had to be. So she may have perceived him as unable to take care of himself. While in high school, she tried to help him get a job, with him in his late 40s. She always goes back to him and checks in with him, now that she has her choice and is out of custody agreement.
She favors him, even after learning for herself who he is, and realizing that maybe I was not the mean mommy who got divorced for no reason that he portrayed. She can start to see why now, but that still does not seem to matter. He’s still her favorite.
Yes, there was parental alienation, even as we split custody. It can be psychological and does not have to result in physical estrangement. But that does not fully explain her preferences. The above two points seem to go a long way to doing so, above and beyond the normal love for a parent.
I never believed anything could make me stop loving my children. But my daughter has with her viciousness, NC, lies, set-ups, conspiring with my sisters against me and playing games with seeing the grandchildren. I do not know if she is like her psychopath dad or brainwashed. My trying to save her only made it worse so now I no longer even want to see her either. We see her husband and the grandchildren on rare occasions now when the children used to spend days here and go on trips with us. I thought it would kill me…even tried…but now I have some peace. I was a good mother. I am a good person. I cannot help her. Sad but true. I have to live with it. Thankfully I still have my loving husband, son, DIL and SIL and some contact with the precious grandchildren. I will survive. The grief is forever though.
I am so sorry for you and what you have gone through. I like what you said “I was a good mother and I am a good person”. I need to repeat that a million times a day. I want to take all the guilt on myself for my son and my bad choices in men. But I AM a good person. That’s the difference. I am sure they never regret anything except maybe being caught.
Not sure. Never really happy as they often have addictions. But we were good mothers and good people, that’s why the poem “The Man In The Glass” hangs prominently in my home. A wonderful motto to go by…
Heartbreakingly, I feel that this is very similar to my situation, though my children are younger. My daughter has already started doing what you say. The hard part is the agony of indecision, of not knowing what her personality really is. Is it worth fighting for, or a lost cause? It is so hard to just give up on a child, and knowing there will likely be grandchildren who also would be estranged then. How does one decide without keeping on trying to help and waiting to see? My daughter is of age, so I can not compel therapy or find out the results of any evaluation at this point.
This is my first post on Love Fraud. This is to all and especially to NotWhatHeSaidofMe
I want to let you know I feel for you. I hear you going through so much anguish. You are loving your daughter deeply–she is part of you–and also you are finding her behaviors cruel, rejecting, and terribly hurtful. This must leave you feeling torn in two.
When I read your post, Co-Dependents Anonymous (CoDA) came to my mind as a possible tool that might be a support as you are going through this difficult time. You can Google this 12-step program and check out the list of co-dependent characteristics and see if this might apply to you.
I believe I understand to some degree how you are feeling from my own experiences. I have been going through a family conflict with a sibling for a long time. The pain of conflict with someone close to my heart since childhood has been tearing me up so much for the last years that it has badly affected my health.
I want keep myself safe from the conflict, emotional turmoil, and stress and get my health back, yet I also feel such longing to be close to my sibling that I feel like part of me is being severed from me. I don’t want to choose between my family and my own well-being. I’m very torn, and it’s terribly hard to know what to do.
Over a year ago, I became desperate about my situation. I was ill and getting worse. The doctors could find nothing wrong, but it is amazing how debilitating stress is. My energy was very low, and it was going lower. I could not function. I had withdrawn from all my activities because I had no energy for them.
Gradually, I got worse. My back began to hurt, and I had to stop walking. I did not have enough energy to do the essential things like my laundry. All I could manage was to get in food, cook it, and eat, which took all my time and energy. I was in despair about my conflict with my sibling, and it was profoundly affecting my health. I did not know if I could die from loss of energy, but I was afraid I might. I had to get my life energy up.
I began to look for help, and I found a coach who was willing to work with me on a low sliding scale. Near the same time I stopped reading letters, which had been very disturbing, from my sibling. Although this was very difficult for me to do, because part of me longed for a good sibling relationship, another part of me was fighting for my life, and I did it. I needed to eliminate the stress to keep myself from going under.
Since then, I have been working with my coach by phone. This has been slow progress, but I am gradually getting stronger. Coaching has done a lot for me, and I have more energy than I did. A great deal of this improvement is also due to reducing the stress in my life by not reading letters from my sibling.
Recently I was able to do my laundry for the first time in many months. My back still hurts, but not as much. I can walk again, and I am even able to dance now. I am still in greatly debilitated condition, but I am on a broad lifestyle plan to improve my health.
Although the conflict with my sibling is not at this time being addressed, it still has to be resolved. However, I need to be healthy to cope with it. I feel uneasy and sad about my choice to stop reading letters from my sibling. Sometimes I feel much worse than that about it, too, but I believe it is the right choice for me because my health is too fragile to risk being compromised.
I don’t want to get to such a low point of life energy and health in future before I assert myself and take action to meet my needs, but it is very confusing to have conflicting needs like this that tear me apart: on the one hand, wanting to be close to my sibling, and on the other hand, wanting to avoid stressful conflict and to protect my health.
I plan to continue working with my coach, yet my coach says that perhaps I need to get into therapy. I think that might be true, so I am looking for referrals. I need a low sliding scale and a very good therapist, which is a difficult combination to find. I am in the Los Angeles area, so please let me know if you have ideas. You can post them in this thread for me, since I do not know how else that would be handled.
NotWhatHeSaidofMe, I think you can see the parallel in our situations, which although also very different, have our anguish at the root of them. My very best wishes to you.
Joyful Dancer,
I might have some good suggestions for you. I too was driven into chronic exhaustion beyond my ability to cope with daily tasks. At its worst, I felt, and possibly was, closer to death than life. In my case, this was in large part due to my marriage to a N/P. My doctors also could not find anything wrong — at first — until things got very bad healthwise.
Look into Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and Fibromyalgia. Even if this is not what you have, my belief is that these are extremes on a spectrum, and high chronic stress, especially when you feel trapped in a situation or an insoluble problem, is the primary driver. Some of the same things that help CFS and fibro may help you.
Also look into adrenal exhaustion and low dose cortisol replacement. Higher doses have side effects that may be worse than the initial problem. But there are natural things to do to be supportive of the adrenal gland and your natural resiliency to stress.
Also check into stress management techniques.
A therapist can help, but in my experience very few really understand Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD), and psychopaths are only part of Antisocial Personality Disorder (ASPD), so experience with these can also be quite different. Most therapists that deal with personality disorders really mean Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD), and this is usually quite different, though in its more acting out forms may be similar to what we encounter with sociopaths. My view is that the best for us is trauma therapists experienced in trauma and PTSD. One helpful way to deal with PTSD through either talk therapy or body work (without psychotherapy) is Somatic Experiencing, or SE. They have a website with referrals of trained practitioners around the country. This method makes sense to me and I tried it in body work and found it somewhat helpful.
As part of my recovery from CFS and fibro, I had to separate myself from anyone who was hurtful or stressful. This included some family members who I did not see or talk with for up to 2 years while I recovered. Later, after feeling stronger, I was able to deal with most of them and they re-entered my life. I was able to recover while living with my N/P husband.
Later, after divorcing him and moving out, and after “coming down” from that experience and recovering from complex PTSD, I finally am in a place where my mind is once again clear and my body is mostly back to reasonable levels of energy for my age and situation.
You really do have “to put the oxygen mask on” first and then deal with challenges such as your sibling. That way, you’ll be stronger and more up to dealing with anything and handling any stress and strong emotion that comes. Just be aware that it is usual to feel like retreating in the face of the problems sociopaths can cause.
I wish you the best of luck.
I remember those conversations well.
I found that the more I bit my tongue and ignored the emotional baiting, I was able to focus on the business of the exchange. The more I focused on the business of the exchange and responded only to the business at hand without emotion, the less interested he became – after the more frustrated and hyper period which was miserable. Eventually, he called me a cold hearted bitch and he left me alone.
It was only fun for him when I was reacting to him in a way the he found entertaining. When I stopped, eventually, so did he. Now we are no contact. Every few years he will try to stir the pot. I don’t respond and he goes away again.
flicka, my heart goes out to you. Such a hard thing to have so many sociopaths in your midst. I still do not understand why people gravitate towards the sociopath and away from the victim. I always thought that it was his charm that convinced others that the bruises on me were attention seeking on my part and not a sign of victimization. Maybe, somewhere inside, they were afraid that turning on him would result in what he did to me. Whatever. What I did find was that the stronger I became in dealing with him, the fewer of our friends had contact with me. In my situation it was just as well. I didn’t need him milking them for information about me to use against me. God Bless You!!!!
I personally believe that ‘friends’ do not fully comprehend the devastation caused by psychopaths; they don’t know how to deal with it so they just remain “hands off”. It is truly an incomprehensible ailment to the unknowledgeable; even then, it’s mostly those who’ve had experience with it that comprehend. If we ‘normals’ hadn’t experienced it, would we have ever believed such evil exists anywhere? Would we know how best to help the victims? I highly doubt it.
Yes, I am much more at peace having no contact with any of them…no more conflicts, no more lies, no endless questions to myself. NC is the only answer.
flicka…I wholeheartedly agree. Friends do not get it…I guess they can’t. I can’t help that the devastation caused a hole in my heart that will not heal completely. Yes, I have healed a TON and am functioning way better than I have been, but there is still a feeling of emptiness or when something else negative happens in my life, all the feelings from the spath come back and and I don’t like it; I don’t want it, but what do I do about it? Therapy didn’t help, friends don’t really get it…they just think I was “used” by a guy and that was it…that I should have been over it a long time ago…they have no idea the evil that it entailed and the mind games, the mind control, the brainwashing, the fact that I was specifically targeted, conned and thrown away like a used tissue. Is it just something we have to live with forever and just shut up about it?? I live my life and am blessed, but is what happened to me just something I have to live with in my heart forever? Does anyone have anymore suggestions?
Yes I agree that nobody who has not been there can really get it. In the end, when true colors were shown, I retained most of my friends. But they did not say anything earlier and some have since asked why I was with my N/P husband back then. They saw how bad he was and wondered about me. So maybe that is also why they back off. They don’t understand the dynamics of the entrancement and the feeling of, or actual, helplessness that can ensue. They stay away from what they do not understand. And they stay away if they sense they can not help or their help might not be welcomed.
Escapefor1…I totally agree about friends staying away if they sense they cannot help or they do not understand it because they themselves have never felt what you are feeling. I think they feel helpless and they don’t want to feel helpless. Very good points!
Dear Ser: I don’t think we are ever truly “over” an abuser but we must learn to cope in order to survive. Along with NC. and gradually rediscovering WHO we formerly were, we need to replace our concerns over our abusers by substituting a life goal. For example, find something you’re really interested in and throw your time, heart and soul into it until it becomes as consuming as the abuser once was. Whether it be helping others overcome things, teaching wht you’ve learned or developing a business, we must not waste our energies on unproductive things.(i.e. psychopaths.) Get on with trying to create a challenging life of your own and one which consumes your thoughts, love and energies. Hard to explain but we MUST substitute the abuser with more meaningful things. At least I think so. Good luck to all victims!
Good advice. We need another obsession to replace the first.
flicka…this is true. I guess I am just not doing enough of the passion stuff. I volunteer a lot at church and in the community…I guess I am just not doing it enough. I need to really throw myself into it or something else. I have come a long, long way. I told a friend earlier today that I guess I will just have to live with the small hole in my heart and that’s OK…a lot of people walk around with holes in their heart. I just know I am not the person I was before he walked into my life out of nowhere. But that’s OK, too. Thanks so much for your wisdom.
No….you’re 100% better, wiser! Life is a continual growing lesson and if we’re not changing, we’ve stopped growing. Continue seeking and you will dicover what motivates and captures you! Good luck!
Thank you, flicka! 🙂
So true. These emails sound just like my P/N ex! The part about the $100 tickets and the negativity of well-meaning relatives just rang so true, plus just the general obstructiveness.
In my case, my ex also went after bothering my parents and trying to enlist their aid in my cause. He sent all of us so many long and horrid emails. What stopped that in its tracks was that I filed a motion to stop the harrassment. It might have ended up with a criminal charge. So he stopped but quick.
Something to think about trying.
When I married my pscho Ex 40+years ago, appearances meant more to me and no one, not even my nearby parents, had any idea what I was going through. Even ex’s Child Protective Service charge of abuse never was followed through. I somehow thought perhaps my college age daughter would be a shoulder to cry on but alas, she was already in his camp. So I moved with the remaining children to the N.C. coast, worked 2 minimum wage jobs while raising 3 abused sons and walked the seashore for years to try and heal myself after trying to salvage 23 year marriage. I was heartbroken but had to go on for the 3 remaining children; they never asked to be born!
Thanks so much for listening and advice. I am now too old, disabled and tired to fight on. Why I keep living, God only knows. But I keep mentally busy with research, projects galore and my love of Nature, animals. music and writing.
Flicka,
I really am sorry to hear it. I can not imagine having all your children affected and distanced from you. I am glad you have found your own interests. Although I am still parenting, it is nearing the end (empty nest is coming due to college), and sometimes I just feel like I need to focus on my interests. If I can remember what they were, LOL.