By | October 19, 2007 86 Comments

Sociopaths as parents (part 3): Hostility spreads!

Scientists now believe that the set of personality traits that cause sociopathy develops in people with genetic risk. But research also shows that genetics alone cannot account for the presence of sociopathy in our society. Sociopathy is caused by an interaction between genes and environment. In my opinion, many kids are twice cursed by genetics. The same genes that put them at risk also give them at least one unfit parent. This unfit parent creates an environment where the genes that produce sociopathy can become manifest.

In part 1 of this series, I listed several parenting behaviors that foster the development of sociopathy. This week we will discuss the trait anger and hostility that characterizes sociopathy. Nowhere are gene-environment interactions more apparent than in the development of an angry, hostile, suspicious style of relating to others.

Numerous studies have demonstrated that children at risk for sociopathy tend to adopt a suspicious approach during social interactions with both peers and adults. They are quick to interpret the behavior of others as hostile, angry or otherwise malevolent. They are also more likely to propose aggressive solutions to situations that involve conflict. When at risk kids respond in kind to perceived hostility, other children reject them. This rejection serves to confirm to the child that others are indeed malevolent–a classic self-fulfilling prophesy.

I am convinced that this suspicious, hostile stance we see in at risk children is due to their focus on dominance and power. At risk children tend to focus on competition and power as opposed to affection in relationships. If your child is focused on dominance, she/he will appear to you to be strong willed and will not respond well to correction. Many parents respond to dominant children by trying to put them in their place. They thus model aggressive behavior. Engaging in dominance struggles only further activates the dominance drive in at risk children. Dealing with a child’s dominance behavior, is perhaps the biggest challenge parents of at risk children face.

The only tool we have to reduce dominance behavior in at risk children and teens is affection. Affectionate interactions are incompatible with dominance behavior, so, if you want your child to be easier to live with, you have to teach him/her to be affectionate. You have to do everything in your power to give your child the ability to love. When strong dominance motivation is appropriately balanced with empathy and affection, the result is a great leader. Our kids who are born dominant are born leaders if we are able to guide them to have this balance.

I believe the dominance behavior at risk children show is inborn. My son was born with this dominant temperament and I work daily to teach him to love. He is now nearly 5 and does show a great deal of empathy and affection, however, he also shows the dominance behavior I am discussing. For example, there are times when we are shopping and someone gets close to our cart. My son becomes very territorial and says to adults, “This is our cart, don’t touch our stuff!” I promise he did not learn this from me. When we are in public I make it a point to smile, greet people and wish them a good day. Notice, too, that my son is not afraid to confront adults he doesn’t know. Just a few weeks ago, we drove to a local bike trail with our bikes on the bike rack of the van. As I was unloading the bikes, a woman approached me to ask about the trail. Her tone was a little anxious and her expression somewhat dry. My son interpreted her body language and expressions as hostile and said, “Don’t be mean to my mom!”

When these issues come up, I reassure my son and encourage him to give people the benefit of the doubt. “That nice lady only wanted to know about the trail.” I relate these experiences here because I want you to consider what would happen to my son if there was an adult male in his life who modeled the same competitive, suspicious behavior he is predisposed to. I have no doubt what would happen; these traits would become greatly magnified!

Studies have confirmed that nurture magnifies nature to produce antisocial behavior in at risk children. Two of the primary predictors of sociopathy in the children of sociopaths are a hostile style on the part of the sociopathic parent and hostile parenting. Interestingly, sibling to sibling spread of antisocial behavior also occurs via this hostility factor. Last week we received a letter from a mother whose former husband and now adult son are both sociopaths. She expressed guilt over not fighting harder when her son asked to live with his father. She didn’t fight because she also had two other children in the home who were suffering at the hands of their sibling, who was developing sociopathic personality traits. I believe that this mother’s decision, to focus her energy on the children she believed could be helped, likely saved the other two children. In the real world, people who have had children with sociopaths often have to make very difficult, gut-wrenching decisions.

Sociopaths not only model a suspicious/hostile attitude toward others, they can also be hostile toward family members, including children. For children who are not dominant, hostility directed toward them from a sociopathic parent creates anxiety and depression. When dominant children are the recipients of hostility, they simply throw it back or displace it on others. Either way, a home that is not a source of peace is bad for child well-being. In order to learn to love, children must learn to enjoy affection. In homes where anger abounds, children come to enjoy food, various forms of video entertainment, and other escapes, as opposed to really enjoying loved ones. This creates a problem with the pleasure balance that sets these children up to develop alcoholism and addiction later on. When love does not abound in our lives we seek to fill the void”¦and the result can be disastrous.

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Cripes. I might be pregnant and I sincerely hope that if I am I will make the right decision.

I don’t want to be involved in custody battles and having to trust my child to my ex and his new girlfriend for visitations.

I certainly don’t want my child to grow up in an angry, unstable environment.

I am praying and hoping that it is just the shift in the seasons that is causing my symptoms and that I am NOT pregant. That would be a real wakeup call and I would be so happy if I am not since I wuold then be able to just get on with my life without the added pressure of raising a child with him.

Thought his response is “I would want us to be a family.” I don’t trust him anymore really and I am afraid that he will see this as a monkey wrench in his plans.

Argh what the hell did I get myself into?

You’ll all be happy to know I am NOT pregnant.

I am so relieved it feels like I should throw a party and a part of me is dissappointed – go figure.

Thanks for listening and being here.


My sociopathic ex and I are supposed to have joint custody but our son lives with him for the better part of the week because he was convinced by his dad that his town had a better school. With this argument and many false accusations against me, he got his way in court. There was a law guardian but unfortunately, he saw my ex as the better off parent and together, they managed to manipulate the system. Now, I have to call my ex and beg to see my son. Alot of the time he says no or this is inconvenient. It tears me up when I call my son on his cell and he is in a bar with his dad at late hours on a school night! It was on a night when I wanted to take him….what? Were they out celebrating their triumph? It tears me up that he is teaching our sons that this is ok and he badmouths me to them constantly. I work hard everyday and I do not drink. I have a very stable and safe environment and family members who care about me. He has none of these things and I hate the fact that he is making me look second rate in front of them. I would never tell them this, but he is the one who is second rate by his continual bragging about his superior lifestyle! Yet, he is manipulative, controlling, paranoid and abusive. I tried to get my lawyer to see this and even had very good examples, careful and detailed notes BUT it didn’t matter to them because he was better than me at convincing them that he was the better parent to raise our son. You can try to be the General of your own Army but it doesn’t always work out in your favor. The courts need to be educated on these types.

My daughter and grandson are sociopaths, as well as my mother. I left arizona, as my daughter moved there. I cannot be around them and stay sane. My grandson is a dominant, aggressive 12 yr. old that runs the show. My daughter has 3 drug related felonies, yet she is treated like a queen by my mother. I take the verbal and emotional punnishment for being alive and thinking I have a right to live. My grandson lived with me for the school year last year due to my daughter’s arrest for a cocaine purchase while on probation (somehow she conned the judge-it was a 3 strike state-and got off scott free. Others in her position got several years in prison. She never has had to really pay any kind of price for what she does-NEVER). As long as I did it his way, we had no problems. I bent over backwards to please him because I was really afraid of his temper. I was SO GLAD when he went back home. Only for them to return and that’s when I got out of there. I no longer feel the guilt re. my feelings towards him, my daughter or my mother. I honestly don’t know how I escaped this disorder. My mother tormented me since birth-saying I was a “bad seed” when I was 6 days old. My 4 older brothers raised me, as she would not. I am the youngest and the only female. The emotional abuse was non stop until I could get out of that house. Then I married a sociopath (died 13 years ago from cancer) and gave birth to my very own sociopath. She and my mother are identical. They have no friends except for each other. My father is passive and pretends that everything is normal. He has never stood up to my mother for any reason. I tend to be somewhat passive myself and that is what got me thru last year with my dangerous grandson. He is a food and video game addict. He demands total attention and gives nothing in return. He and my daughter fight so badly. This kid runs the household. My daughter has always treated him like an equal, telling him every sordid detail of her life. Confiding things no mother should ever tell her son. I think she has almost emotionally incested him. She has a 3 yr old daughter (bad temper) who has no rules, does as she pleases, hyperactive to the extreme. Never married either father and they’ve never been in the picture. She has one partner after another (she is quite beautiful) and uses them for money and takes whatever they have and dumps them. No one stays around my daughter for any length of time-she is too violent-gives selfishness a new meaning. My only answer to this is to just get out and stay out-period. I live in another state and they don’t have access to any info to get in touch with me. I can’t take any more of them or my parents. When I moved, it took me 4 months to just breathe, and begin sleeping better. I’m jumpy and nervous and have a very difficult time believing anyone about anything. I live in fear my grandson will find me when his life spins out of control. And it will. Am I a bad person for finally saying NO MORE to a kid?


You are to be commended for taking care of yourself. Staying with the family is an impossible situation. They probably cannot be saved, even your grandson. All you can really do is save yourself.

Ox Drover

Having been born into a family with psychopaths on both sides of the family, interspersed with enablers—I had a psychopathic father, extremely violent, but fortunately he was out of my an MD and very bright, as far as I can tell was extremely narcissistic.

My mother’s brother was a very abusive psychopath and alcoholc, who despised women. Their mother was an enabler, very passive who “protected” her son from any consequences of his behavior, which at age 7 consisted of trying to smother his new baby sister (my mother) He continued in this behaviior until he was 14 at which time, my granfather found out and put a stop to the behavior against my mother.

My mother’s maternal grandfather was an abusive man, also alcoholic, and his wife was a passive enabler.

I gave birth to two sons, one who started demonstrating lack of conscience at age 11, and by age 15 was a criminal. He is extremely bright (99th percentile) but since age 17 (he is 37 now) has spent less than 12 months out of prison. He is currently incarcertated for cold-blooded murder.

He is extremely manipulative and has literally tried to have me murdered by one of his friends (ex-convict) because I have gone NO CONTACT with him–and thus cut off the funds he is accustomed to since I realized that he has absolutely NO remorse for his murder, and in fact is proud that his “crime is more horrible than the cops ever knew”–what COULD be worse than putting a gun to a young woman’s head and shooting her?

He has manipulated my Narcissistic and enabling mother for funds, even though she is aware that he has tried to have me killed for money. She is aware that her death was also included in the “plot” (which sounds like a very very bad novel) yet she still sends him money. I have gone NC with her as well.

I only recently “woke up” and realized the extent of my mother’s propensity to enable or the extents that she will go to to do so. The only thing that holds her in check at all is that my other son says if she continues to enable my criminal son and send him money, he will go NC with her as welll.

My “good” son was married to a psychopathic gold digger, who connec my mother out of $24,000 and had an affair with the psychopath that my inmate son sent to “infiltrate” the family. When they were not able to kill me, they went to Plan B and conned mother out of the money and when they were discovered by my “good son” they decided to kill him and make it look like “self defense”—fortunately, I believe that God was protecting him, as he was able to reach 911 before they were able to accomplish this. The X-wife of my “good” son and my inmate-son’s “Trojan Horse Psychopath are both in prison at this point in time.

I can empathize with Redheeler 100%—the only thing you can do is to RUN. NO CONTACT—hide out if necessary. Fortunately I am in a financial position to do so, but many are not.

When I went to a new therapist in my new town recently after hearing my story, he requested that I bring in documentation and a witness (my “good son”) to prove to him I was not some paranoid delusional “nut job” (not his words on the “nut job”) And I can’t say that I blame him.

For all the world to “see” my family has always been a “respectable” family–because the enablers in the family kept the “deep dark” secrets of the horrible behavior of the male members of the family so that there were no reprocussions against them or tried to make them accountable for their behavior. My son is the only member of a multigenerational dysfunctional family (to the max) that has ever gone to prison, though I am sure that my biological father psychopath killed at least two, and maybe more people.

EVeryone was a “professional” and the family for the most part was “upper middle class” “church going” respected members of the community. While behind closed doors it was a living hell. I am glad that my one biological son is out of this situation, and living in hiding from his P-brother, and my adopted son has no traits, and I am moving to another part of the country as well. I have no assurances that my P-son, even from prison, won’t “reach out and touch” me if he knows where I live.

I’m at a point in my life that I cannot endure any more of the dysfunction, the fantasy, and the hologram of the “nice normal family” any longer. I should have done this 20+ years ago and not fallen for the “malignant hope” that my P-son gave me that “he would change” and “what would Jesus do?” He is a predatory monster.

I am a retired medical professional with several years of work in psychiatry so there is “no excuse” for me being duped and conned–but anyone can be if they allow themselves to be. Setting appropriate boundaries for ANYONE, whether they gave birth to you, or you gave birth to them, is the ONLY way to avoid being conned, used, abused, discarded or killed.


There is something extremely sad about a mother being a sociopath. The person who brought you into the world, held you to her breast, the only human presence you depend on, with your life. God created you and through our mothers we were born. Creation is a beautiful thing.

I am 46yo and have been emotionally, psychologically, spiritually, intellectually abused for 40 years by a sociopathic mother including violent physical abuse by an older brother and a rape that was engineered by my mother whereby her Godson commited this violent, disgusting act. I also believe my 5 siblings that I believe have been poisoned from the same river. They continue to try and destroy me and I did feel absolutely hopeless, crying nightly, thinking suicide, trapped, even felt like I had no soul – they’ve made me feel like this most of my life. As soon as I hit 2008, my luck has changed and now that they see me getting my health and life back and standing on my own, they are so scared. Because they know I have always held the power and I am about to reclaim it!! They are very very uncomfortable right now because things are happening around me that will improve my life, status and future. And all the lies they’ve told about me over the decades to turn a community, my friends, colleagues and relatives against me are about to be revealed as people see me for who I am without me even trying.

THERE IS LIFE AFTER THE FILTH OF SOCIOPATHS. Stay strong and keep believing in yourself. God has been a comforter for me. Pray to your Creator and when you undo the chain between you and your sociopathic family never look back!


Am so grateful for this post-it pretty much explains what was driving the abuses my P husband and his P mother perpetrated against me for the last 5 years of the 15 years I was with my husband.

After returning to the P after a 9 mos. separation, having fallen for his seduction routine touting real change, a desire to make up for the past and a commitment to building our future…I did notice that in spite of those assertions I felt an under current of extreme hostility and disrespect. The very subtle ambient abuse played a role in my picking up on the hostility.

The surface interactions when I first went back belied the underlying malice which I could feel. Both parties claimed to love me and to be concerned about my well-being (was struggling with an illness) creating a major cognitive dissonance which kept me off balance.

In those early weeks, comments would slip out on occasion, which, had I been paying close attention to would have clearly shown me what they really thought of me and what they were up to. However those comments came to me out of context, having no insight into the underlying distortions they had created with which to define me by, I only became more confused.

My P husband had been groomed by his P mother, into becoming what he became. They idolized each others antisocial ideologies/behaviors as though these represented strength, superiority and a ‘healthy’ way to interact with others-they viewed meeting their own needs at the expense of another (exploitation) as being indicative of their responsibility to themselves, the desire to interdependently relate was seen as a character flaw which exhibited weakness, the willingness to be reasonable or compromise was viewed as not taking care of one’s self-just begging to be taken advantage of. Empathy was nothing but a concept-neither could grasp what it really meant but they could use the word in a sentence. Asking for reciprocity was seen as a demonstration of stupidity and an attempt to manipulate or exploit them, as were expressions of emotions (especially this) and any requests or expectations for emotional support were determined to be manipulative, an assault on their “boundaries” and proof of the inferiority of the requestor. If the needs of those close to them were made known, this behavior was viewed as intrusive, self-serving manipulation -a “healthy, responsible person” would never expect to have their needs accommodated much less admit that they had any, they would simply meet their own at all times under all circumstances and NEVER have any expectations others, especially those closest to them-to voice one’s needs exhibited stupidity, weakness and inferiority.

Their words should have clued me into the fact that they were defining me, defining my actions and motivations by assigning malevolent, self-serving, defective traits and intentions to me, for which they felt entitled and justified to abuse and punish me for. Projections really.

I assume now, that these projections were based on their own hostile, negative, self-centered, suspicious outlook on life and people in general, as this article so adeptly describes. Regrettably, I walked in with a sold understanding of my own identity, behavior, motivations and goals and gradually came to the understanding that they both denied the reality of who I was for their own self-serving purposes. I had been tricked into coming back in order to trap me into living within their distortions of me and of reality. I existed as nothing but a dumping ground for their own defectiveness and ill will-through Projective Identification they made me pay for their own sins.

I could not refute their distortions of me, assert myself or form stronger boundaries (stupid suggestions from a ‘therapist’ attempting to rationalize how I had ended up being abused), as I had been pre-assigned the position of “object of no value that needs to be destroyed” in advance of my return…I never existed to them in the first place, and those boundaries had been violated prior to our reunion without my knowledge.

There may well be some truth in the concept that the abusive behavior of a non-socio can be curbed via a victim’s assertiveness and boundary enforcing skill. I had strong boundaries and was an assertive, ambitious, independent, dedicated and responsible individual prior to the 5 years of relentless abuse. From what I have experienced, there WAS NO preventing the abuse by the Sociopaths I was closely tied to- I lacked awareness of their agenda. There were no tricks, no tactics no ways of being that I could have employed in order to have prevented their abuse.

Recognition that this was the case was gut-wrenching, as I had returned with honest intentions and had committed to rebuilding my relationship but I had no power to change what was of their making and not of my own -my only power lay in the realization of how utterly powerless I was within the context of the reality they had created.


It is often observed that parents of sociopathic children tend to avoid or dislike them. However, parental support and constant adult supervision is extremely important for building a bond of trust and companionship with the child.


I have one child who i feel is ‘on the fence’. His father is ADD, he’s been diagnosed ADD and is losing his empathy and compassion and choosing to shut out issues HE doesn’t want to deal with. He’s now 18 and knows it all…..argues about EVERYTHING…..and wants independance but won’t work for it. He’s got entitlement issues big time…..and I can’t ‘play’ along anymore. I won’t.
Going through his 4 years of high school with his fathers drug antics, abuse and exposing the kids to this behavior and acceptance of it……was very poor timing indeed.
He’s had a rough road, but his contstant has been me, supporting, supervising and bonding……YET….this is what I raised.
I’m concerned about these behaviors….and quite frankly TIRED and seeing no progress in this child….(adult now).
I do avoid ‘arguments’ and his attempts to shove his thinking down my throat…..I call BS on him daily. I am here, yet he pushes me away to remain the victim. He seems to nestle nicely in victim mode……not wanting to rise above, or know how. I’ve modeled survivor…..but he keeps manipulating and stays a victim.

I need to move along in my life……LIFE is a struggle……but we all make are own choices to survive. He seems to want to bring me down too……I can’t allow this.
So I withdraw.

Ox Drover

EB, look at the link behind this posters name, he is SELLING something. I already notified Donna.

I hear you about Junior, and I know it is difficult to “kick’em out in the snow” to survive on their own. I even felt sort of like that when I tossed out son C last year and he’s 40 for crying out loud! LOL But you know, I am NOT going to have ANY drama in my home. Period. End of that conversation. I will not argue with someone about their behavior in MY HOUSE. MY HOUSE, MY RULES. LIKE IT OR LEAVE. END OF STORY. This house is NOT A DEMOCRACY. I do NOT have to be fair.

Funny thing about the “being fair.” After my husband died, I had decided how I would FAIRLY divy up the heirlooms belonging to my husband’s side of the family.

First off, I would make xerox copies of all the things like family photos and so on, and would make out X# piles and then “deal it like cards so that every pile got either an original OR A COPY of every photo. Then with the TRINKETS, I would “deal them out” as well, and every pile that didn’t get an original would get a xerox of that trinket. Tie tacks, cuff links, money clips, pins from events or his skating medals etc. So that each pile would have an equal number of original photos and an equal number of original trinkets but a copy of all the other stuff. Then I would number the piles and the kids could “could draw numbers” for each pile. I figured the kids could then pass on to their own kids whatever or when ever they wanted to. None of this stuff was “valuable” in terms of money (my husband’s $$ valuables were stolen —in fact our hired hand stole his gold watch off his body as he lay dying!) LOL but anyway, I was telling P son about how I had come up with this FAIR PLAN so that no one of the kids, step kids, or adopted kids could feel that I was NOT FAIR each would get a fair chance in the heirloom trinket lottery.


Well, what he was saying was, “I don’t want you to be fair….and I want it ALL, so don’t give it away until I can convince you to give it all to me.” LOL

This was actually right before the last time I saw him, and when I saw the SATANIC look out of his eyes as he told me how his crime was WORSE than even the cops knew. The last time I even wanted to see him. I can close my eyes and still see that DISTURBING “Charlie Manson” stare, that EVIL LOOK of malice and pure hate. It was the thing that tipped the scale for me, that look. That comment.

I saw that SAME LOOK on my p sperm donor’s face as well, and on my egg donor’s face as well. I saw in in that famous photo of Charlie Manson being hauled off as he was arrested, IDENTICAL LOOKS. I’ve seen my P-DIL look at me with hate, but even then NOT THAT LOOK of utter rage and malice that I saw on my P son’s face, and my P sperm donor’s face, and yes, on my egg donor’s face, though I’m not sure she is a total psychopath, just more I think an enabler that is quite willing to PUNISH anyone that doesn’t go along with the family plot and family Play.

Since CONTROL, and the lust for control and power is a prime part of the psychopath’s traits, maybe she is somewhat psychopathic…it is a continuum and not an absolute is or isn’t a psychopath, there are different levels of the traits—but it doesn’t matter if she “qualifies” as a psychopath with a score above 30 on the PCL-R or not (she wouldn’t) she is TOXIC, and toxic people in our lives are not going to work well.

EB, I know you are going through some rough times right now, but take care of YOU in the mix…and if you down size in stuff to fit your little rental house so that you have what YOU need to be comfortable, my advice on the rest of the stuff that you can’t put in the little house, sell it, give it away or throw it away, it will end up costing you more in storage than it is worth. “Storage is where we keep stuff for 10 years before we throw it away.” LOL I am speaking from experience here! Stuff ROTS in even the best of storage places. And it is work to move it into and out of storage plus paying the storage costs. (((hugs))))


Oxy…I feel the same way about storage units….I’ve never had one myself….and every friend who ever has, it’s been a place to collect shit that you eventually throw out…..
I DON”T want to go that route. Nor the expense and weight of knowing i’ve got to deal with the storage shit at some point.
If I don’t get rid of it now……I’ll pay for it forever…..
It’s tiime to DELETE.
I’ll pack up what I want, then open my house up for the vultures to pick through.
Crazy thought…..this is what my life has boiled down to….

Thanks for the hugs oxy…..they all help!


FAD’s Passport Saga continues…

Please, fellow mom’s out there, help me compose something that sounds EVEN more convincing than this! (PS I am incited because I KNOW he is NOT capable of this level of literacy; he did not write this!)


It seems quite selfish to prevent our son from having a nice warm vacation with his father outside of the United States. The primary benefit of our son traveling outside of the country is for him to be on vacation with his father in a new and exciting location. There are places I would like to expose him to, that are exciting, family-oriented, and educational for children. Whether he remembers this now or not, memories will be created, fun will be had, and traditions will be shaped. In addition, the weather during the winter months in the U.S is never warm in comparison to the Caribbean (even in April the U.S weather is unpredictable). And the United States may be a sufficient travel arena for you and our son, but not for our son and myself. I have set aside as much money as I could in a vacation fund over the past few years to take our son on vacation. With me finding a new job, I do not know how long it would be before I have any vacation time in the future, so I intend to use this money towards this February vacation.
(Let us remember that jerkface just lost his job, AND has consistently had his CS amount lowered each year on the count of, “I won’t get as much over time next year.”
And has been delinquent in payments to me, yet he has SAVED up money for this TRIP!!!?)

On another note, I will reiterate my stance on the fact that our son’s health, safety, and well being are my first priority in any and all decisions that are made (just like you). I would never intentionally position our son in any danger.
As such, I have dedicated a substantial amount of time to researching what type of government warnings, threats, and vaccinations are required for various countries. I know what countries native tongue is English so there would not be any language barrier. Although having our son exposed to different cultures (e.g. languages, beliefs, customs, and practices), food, and history will allow him to understand different points of view in the future.
Regardless of his age, life is about learning and making memories. Yes I stated that our son was still young and will not remember these vacations we take him on. And yes I did state that I did not think it was worth it to spend a lot of money on expensive vacations farther away until he is older. All this meant was that we are not going to exotic far away expensive places because of the fact. I just want to take him to the Caribbean so we spend less money but still provide him all the added benefits of traveling abroad. If he is not going to remember any vacation or “anything” for the next few years, why bother taking him to Disneyland as you did at even a younger age than he is now? It is important for us to both understand he will not be this young forever. And it is up to us to make certain we create the best possible memories for him from here on out.
Aside from the above mentioned benefits, overseas travel can offer children a better sense of time. Children by definition live for the moment, with little regard for the past or the future. And part of growing up is learning to see ourselves as links in a chain that stretches into the past and can, with our help, extend into the future. In a country as young as the United States, though, it is not often easy to make that connection. That being said, our country is not the only one within this world. And there is no better time than now to have him experience life to the fullest.
I also realize which countries have the same forms of transportation as in the United States and which countries offer individuals, especially children, better health care than others, in the event of an emergency. Proper care and attention, educating myself daily, and common sense will go great lengths in assuring his safety. (We all know he is incapable of either.)
On a side note, the distance our son would be away from you would be closer than if I were to take him across the country to California, which is in the U.S.
Moreover, I never once mentioned anything to you regarding traveling with “friends.” (some of you may remember him saying he was traveling with “people”) So I am not sure why you keep assuming I am traveling with friends every time I take our son somewhere. And please do not act like you had to cancel your vacation plans because of me. (All I said was I had to cancel my plans.) I had no part in this decision, and frankly was never made aware that I was the cause of you changing such plans. As is, I already offered to take our son a couple days earlier to accommodate your vacation plans, so that has nothing to do with our son or I on our February vacation.
I also previously stated I wanted to take our son to Canada over the winter. Although a passport is not required for our son, it would be preferred he have one between the U.S and Canada. Should you deny me taking our son to Canada, it would seem unreasonable seeing as it is very similar to the U.S. I would appreciate when I do decide to take him you do not deny this trip. Your consent in writing would therefore be appreciated.
If you still choose to deny our son a passport to go to the certain places in the Caribbean, I would then prefer to take our son to either the U.S Virgin Islands or Puerto Rico, since they are U.S Islands and do not require any individual to possess a passport. These places are still the U.S, and according to our settlement agreement we both signed, we can take our son to anywhere in the U.S as long as we let the other know one week in advance. Once I finalize the arrangements, I would like your confirmation in writing of receiving the information on where we are going on vacation.”


*My previous e-mail (as a reference):


After careful consideration, I don’t think a trip outside of the country is in our son’s best interest.

As his mother, his health, safety and well-being are my chief concern.
Considering the lack of adequate health care and automobile safety, along with language barriers,
health advisories, and the current terrorists threats against our nation, as well as the distance our son
would be from his other parent, I think it is premature for either of us to take him out of the country.

I have no intention to take our son out of the country for the same reasons I listed above.

As you stated yourself, he will likely not remember this trip, or any for the next few years.
Not to mention that there is no benefit to him to travel abroad.
The risks simply outweigh the benefits.

That being said, getting him a passport is something we should discuss again in a few years.

At the same time, I do not want to prevent you from having a warm February vacation.
If you had your heart set on traveling with your friends this February, you might consider
exchanging vacations with me, as I have already had to cancel my plans.


Any good responses would be SOOOO appreciated. It’s not that I don’t see through his BS reasons, it’s just that all of this arguing (for lack of a better word) is EXHAUSTING.

Ox Drover

Dear FAD,

that sounds good. I would also add something along the line of.

“since you are without a job now, you might consider that you should post pone spending this money for a vacation at this time until you have a more secure income source than unemployment. With our nation’s unemployment at 9.6% and in our state, X%, and with your lack of educational and job skills for employment above security guard level, you might want to consider too that our son is still going to require medical care, clothing and other expenses, so the money you have saved, while you were behind in child support, might better be spent on keeping current in child support.


Darling, I know this is all so exhausting and that you would just like all this to END. Well, it won’t end until junior is 18 you can count on that, so just adjust your thinking about it (I know that’s hard, he’s not my X and I still want to kick the SOB in the balls!) LOL Yes, I did get my surprise thank you! (((hugs))))


FightAnotherDay……I would have read it and my response would have been a simple ‘NO’ Just reading it gave me a headache!
Selfish….for who?!
‘Once he finalises the arrangements’ …he’s not asking you in the last sentence …he’s telling you!
He’s saying ‘if you choose to deny your son a passport’ are you the baddie now?
Why is he even asking about other countries when your agreement is the States?
It strikes me that he has nothing better to do but sit and write (or get someone else to write) all this rubbish.
He’s just messing with your head.
Sorry I do not know your full situation so if I’m inaccurate please forgive me.



Oxy, That was my previous response, so I obviously need to fill the next reply with more verbiage and reasons against traveling.

This letter is SO inciting because jerkface NEVER left the country his whole life and is poorly educated himself, so how is he one to say how valuable international travel is. There are also many very bright and educated people like myself who do not find a NEED to travel abroad, and find it just as valuable to discover and learn about our own Nation’s great history and heritage.

I am certainly NOT saying my son should never leave the country, but such travel can certainly wait until he is older and can TRULY appreciate the sort of advantage that jerkface quotes above (in my mind, I am thinking 6 years old.)

As far as travel to Canada; while my hometown’s proximity to Toronto Canada made is a great place for my family to frequent when I was young, I was at least 5 on our first trip.

The gift was the least I could do : ) Oxy.


You are Right On!

And, a simple “no” SHOULD suffice, but I guess I am preparing for this to go through attorney’s and I want to have a “leg to stand on” besides my very humble and Unselfish convictions regarding my son’s safety.

It baffles me that he can go on and on about how beneficial this is to our son, but our son, even as bright as he is for his age, is only 2 1/2 and cannot possibly fathom that he is hundreds of miles from home, in another country, or especially appreciate other cultures, even if he may pick up on their differences.

lesson learned


:(…I would never win a mother of the year award that’s for sure. I know that. My son loves video games. He LOVES it! And I let him love it too. My children are loving people. They genuinely care for others and in society are kind to others (working on youngest son now, he cried like a baby the other day and there was no way it wasn’t real. It was a break through for us as a family), and show that kindness and empathy. I hug my kids A LOT. Tell them I love them A LOT. I”ve always done that. I also make it a point for us to share dinner together each night. They don’t have a choice, lol! That’s just how it is. Be there or BE SQUARE! They do know love, and I know they feel love.

But I see my mistakes glaringly obvious. My children were traumatized too by Spath and our relationship. This morning, when I awakened, the first thought I had was “today is a new day! I’m going to be positive, and FORGIVE MYSELF for my past mistakes. Those are in the past. I’m going to live in the present in peace and look forward to the future”. I keep saying, “I forgive myself” over and over.

I don’t know what to do, admittedly,with what has been and how it has affected my children. If I could take back what happened,I would. But I can’t.

One of the things that means so so so much to me, is that my children forgive me, and they have been consistent in saying that despite my relationship with spath, they KNEW they were loved by me. That gives me some comfort. I think it’s so important for me to learn to forgive myself as easily as they do, so I can work harder at healing our stuff.

This was a VERY enlightening article. Thank you for writing it!


lots of good ideas in the above posts.
You might try:
are we talking about the same son? because the son I have is 2 1/2.
Anyone who has studied child development knows that it’s best to Keep family outings with a 2-year-old short and simple. The child this age has a short attention span and lengthy activities will cause the child to become irritable and tired. Frankly I don’t believe it is in the best interests of our son to subject YOU to such a frustrating event.
At 2 1/2, the best possible memories for our son would have been a happy 2-parent family, not exotic travel to tropical climates. But you were not able to provide that so, the next best thing you could do is provide the monetary support that will keep him healthy and provide a good education. Instead, you managed to save for a caribbean vacation for a 2 1/2 year old, (while “unemployed”) but couldn’t pay your child support on time and had to have it reduced. The judge will love to read that logic.
This is the kind of selfish “logic” that you have always displayed and it’s WHY I don’t want our son to be outside the jurisdiction of the court system that can protect him from any further “logical” decisions you might make while out of the country.
But what I ascertain most from your email is that you just have nothing better to do with your time than try to waste mine. Be my guest, I find it amusing.



Skylar. You and my brother could really hit it off.

Coming up next. My brother’s response to the BS!

I am SO glad my friends (here) and loved ones can keep me sane through humor.


lesson learned

LOL Sky!!!


lesson learned

I feel so bad that some of you here have to STILL deal with these jerks as parents!!!!

I see so much strength in all of you for having to do so.

I really respect how you handle it.


And here it is.
Complements of FAD’s brother.

“Ok, If you want to take our son on vacation to new and exciting locations, why not take him to one of the many exciting (and warm I might add) within the United States. Sure, fun will be had. You will put him in the care of some rent-a-nanny and be off to do some obscene activity your perverted mind finds enjoyable (sex with some rare Caribbean animal). I understand my less sophisticated nature and hillbilly-like family can only afford vacations within this pathetic land, because we were busy paying for day care, health care, and the general well being of our family. Oh buy the way; you may want to keep your vacation funds to help get you through what inevitably will be a tough time, as your sorry arse will be hard pressed to find someone to hire you as a toilet cleaner, much less give you a good paying job. GOOOSSSSSHHHH you are so STUPID—.Please read your own words; “With me finding a new job, I do not know how long it would be before I have any vacation time in the future, so I intend to use this money towards this February vacation.” UUUURRRRRRR you are a STUPID ARSE!!!!! Now I know why people study EUGENICS. Try saving your money so me and the other working people don’t have to take care of you, you piece of chit.
As I stated and proved sufficiently enough in the last paragraph, you are STUPID. I understand, it’s not your fault, but you are STUPID none the less. So, when you tell me that you would never INTENTIONALLY put our son in harm’s way, am I supposed to feel good about this? I am sure you have done all the research to make sure you do everything possible to prevent the spread of that bizarre animal STD. I don’t see you fitting in real well with the native populations if you believe their native tongue is English, but again you’re STUPID! You have no knowledge of how colonialism impacted the islands of the Caribbean. Boy you are STUPID! Yea, your correct we should allow our son to go all over the world to learn tolerance, multiculturalism, and general acceptance of different points of view, because we don’t have an opportunity to learn this within our own country everyday—ARSEHOLE”..
HUH: You have finally rendered me speechless!!
Yes, you are correct again; we can’t have our son being as ignorant as his father, and believe the native tongue of the Caribbean inhabitants or the indigenous people is English. As for this bullchit about time and the link of chains crap—.the only broken link is in your genetic code. Boy you are so f’d up! Live life to the fullest now, like you said, so he can remember it so well. So because the USA is not the only country in the world, and he is a link in a chain from the vacation future and vacation past and the native tongue is English I should allow him to experience life to the fullest so he can just forget it? Yea I feel a lot better now; I think I will give him permission go with you and the trollop.
According to Michael Moore Cuba has a good health care system, but the transportation has been stuck in the mid fifties. You do have a lot of common sense. I am beginning to really consider this.
FARK you are so STUPID!! What makes you think the number of miles has ever been an issue, you DOLT!!! Good side note.
Are you going alone then? No, then you must be remarried, oh wait can’t do that yet, but soon you will or be wearing cement shoes. My vacation, oh my brother says “Go Fark Yourself”!! You must not be paying attention and any other excuse for being a loser.
Boy you have huge balls! I haven’t even approved the first Bullshit request and you are going to bust my balls about some other chit. Eat Chit!!!
You appear to have all this figured out. If I recall correctly when you agreed to that settlement you still had a job, but those terms have changed, please consider these terms changed. Oh yea—————”.GO FARK YOURSELF!!!!!!!

Ox Drover


Let me add, that One step posted a characteristics of 2 yr olds the other day (don’t know where it is or what thread) but it says that TWO YEAR OLDS DO NOT LIKE CHANGE and their DEVELOPMENTAL STAGE is to NOT LIKE THINGS THAT ARE DIFFERENT, so traveling with the jerkface to STRANGE places will be TRAUMATIZING not “enlightening or educating” and to subject a 2 year old to such travel is counter productive besides the fact that even though he saved this money for a vacation,, NOW THAT HE IS WITHOUT EMPLOYMENT HE MIGHT BETTER CONSIDER uUSING IT FOR LIVING EXPENSES THAN FOR A VACATION.

“NO to a passport” is your FINAL ANSWER! NO is a complete sentence. You might even consider just that in your response to him.


After considering all the various angles about our son traveling out of the country for a vacation, I have come to the conclusion that this is not in the best interest of our child at this age. We can have this discussion in a few years when he is old enough to appreciate and possibly learn from “international travel.” Right now, he is a 2 year old toddler who appreciates and needs consistency in his daily routine.



SIMPLE and straight to the point. NO!!!!!

Simple is better.


Let him be the one to run off at the mouth with stupid things.

Law #9: Win through your actions, never through argument. Any momentary triumph you think you have gained through argument is really a Pyrrhic victory.

NOTHING ELSE, no arguing with him, no explaining NO!!! NO!!!! NO!!!!!


true less is better, but in this case, these emails could end up being used in court so sounding unreasonably selfish may not be the best thing. Reasonably selfish, could work in FAD’s favor. Also brown nosing the judicial system with her unshakeable faith in it, could also help. BLAH!


Oxy, Good advice.

I do remember someone responding to my passport issue earlier. I think I bookmarked it.

It’s all so helpful.



FAD, your post was so very funny, I’m still chuckling away at the thought of him reading THAT (if only)



I do not see any selfishness in Oxy’s example.

Or were you just stating that sounding selfish would be bad.

In my case, I honestly feel that I am only doing what I can in my son’s best interest.

We know how these Spath’s are, and how selfish they inherently are. It’s best that I do not let his father make any selfish/careless decisions abroad.


no her reply is not selfish, but judges are used to hearing rational arguments, so as a judge, I might tend to be swayed by reasoning.
If you don’t give any REASONS, then a judge might think you were being capricious. Still, less is better, if you want to save your arguments for court.
Your brother’s approach was the most fun, but could probably be used against you! LOL.
No, is a complete sentence, but it won’t win your case in court.



Dear Jerkface:
This issue has already been discussed and closed.
We can revisit this discussion again, in a few years. Jr is a 2 year old toddler who appreciates and needs consistency in his daily routine.



I say….shorter and direct.
If he brings it up again, do not respond.
Expect punishment…….your not complying with his desires.
Do not engage with him. He’s picking for that. He wants something like your bro’s response…….DO NOT!
You know the truth…..don’t let him egg you.

If he’s that adamant….he’ll take it to a judge. Say no more to him.



I would be comfortable quoting you, but what is my defense to taking my son to Hilton Head or other Disney resorts?

My sister in law and I, of course, keep the kids’ schedule throughout vacation, but he will say he does too.

I also, do not disagree with US destinations, so I believe I must cover those requests. yes?



Why would you need a defense for HH or DResorts?
You have no problem with him taking jr on vacation…..just not one requireing a passport.

I don’t see a defense needed……remember….OFFENSE, NOT DEFENSE.

Would you defend yourself if he questioned a 7pm bedtime?

Ox Drover


I agree with EB, SHORTER….don’t bring up the California or Florida or anything else….if he does, say “I have no problem with you taking Junior to california XYZ date.

Even if you have to cancel a trip with Junior and your sister to justify you not letting jerk face take him to another country, I would be willing to do that. WHATEVER it takes to keep him from taking the baby to another country out of the jurisdiction of the US government. NO PASSPORTS.


Keep in mind…..a judge isn’t worried about a schedule or whatnot……a judge is ONLY concerned about legalities.
Abuse, neglect……
What he feeds him, how he feeds him, who he leaves him with, what time he let’s him sleep etc…..are ONLY parental irrantants……..NOT neglect or abuse…..
hence…..not actionable by law.
This is where it behooves you both to work together for the sake of the wellbeing of child.

Right now….your playing ‘chicken’ with him. He wants, you won’t comply……his only next step is to take you back to court to have a judge order him get a passport.
A judge could very well rule that you have to comply with passport issues……..

Another thing…..judges will not rule based on ‘what if’s’. they tend to go int he direction of …..well okay….we’ll see how this time goes…..if spath doesn’t return with Jr……THEN theirs trouble…….but generally they won’t vote against a ‘loveing’ ‘doting’ father if they ahve no reason to.
Reasons would be, he’s doesn’t always return Jr from visitation for a few extra days……Jr. comes home in a diaper in 20 degree weather…..Jr is bruised, Father doesn’t pick Jr up for visitation or willy nilly…….
If he is generally compliant…’lll have a hard time,in front of judge……(BUT….you already knew this).


Id actually make it even shorter….

Dear Jerkface:
This issue has already been discussed and closed.
We can revisit this discussion again, in a few years.


Ox Drover

FAD, yea, but keep iin mind too that he IS OUT OF A JOB so I bet he is UNLIKELY TO want to spend his vacation money on a court order….I have NO DOUBT that he will PUNISH FAD as soon as he is thwarted from going on his “vacation” and taking the baby, but—-BUT—HE IS GOING TO PUNISH HER ANYWAY no matter what she does. He will always find some way to harass her….that is his fun and games now, his total focus. PUNISH FAD!!!!


I suspect he will want to take him to the Virgin Islands or Puerto Rico.
Though I am not certain a passport is not required for either.


No passport required for the following:

US commonwealths/territories: American Samoa, Baker Island, Howland Island, Guam, Jarvis Island, Johnston Atoll, Kingman Reef, Midway Islands, Navassa Island, Northern Mariana Islands, Palau, Palmyra Atoll, Puerto Rico, US Virgin Islands (St. Croix, St. John and St. Thomas), and Wake Island.

Look like Jr.s going to see the sights of SAMOA soon too huh? How about Guam……
Expect that!



“I obviously need to fill the next reply with more verbiage and reasons against traveling.”

No you do not. EB and Oxy’s ideas for a short, simple, factual reply are spot on. Don’t buy into reasoning with the unreasonable – if he was reasonable would you have needed court orders in the first place? No – you would have worked out an amicable arrangement outside of the courts. I wasted years of my life, time, emotion and effort forgetting that the unreasonable cannot be reasoned with. It doesn’t matter how good your argument is, how strong your logic is or how right you are – remember that they do not think like we think.

Sky’s idea of throwing in a little bit about the developmental stage of a 2 year old is also valid, but I would also keep that bit brief and not go on and on about it. One or two sentences, to add to the stuff already touted by Oxy and EB. (BTW Sky, I laughed at your whole “response”! Funny girl 🙂 )


The most up-to-date info is that one does indeed need a passport for the Virgin Islands.

I want to know what’s wrong with Hawaii in February?


Would it be rash or rational of me to correct him on his false accusations toward me?

There have been a few to date?


Thank you for confirming that no matter what I do jerkface will do anything to torture me. I am always (as you all have noticed) trying to calculate my communications with him (and do so only when necessary), but always get grief.
Your statement about him actually brings me peace to know that I am not doing anything wrong to deserve this.

Good night, and a round of great thanks to you all. This whole matter combined with the latest custody issue has me more upset than I let on.



WHy? Is it important? NO…..OFFENSE VS DEFENSE.

They want us on the defensive… keeps us OFF BALANCE.
Where do you think all this wrong stuff comes from…..his warped convoluted manipulative mind… KEEP YOU OFF BALANCE!



There will be things that you can control and things that you can not. You must let the second lot of things go.

You can refuse to agree to a passport.

You can’t refuse to let him take your son to the Virgin Islands.

Plan accordingly and use your wit and your energy where you CAN effect change and influence outcomes; don’t waste your precious energy and heart bashing your head on the brick walls.

If you want to vent, then write your angry, vengeful, nasty stuff to US here and give us all a good laugh. We will cheer you on and it will not hurt your outcomes. Keep a level head for the real life stuff. Cool, calm, calculated. Poker face. Keep him guessing by not responding as he expects you to – it’s the reason he’s baiting you, after all. Cut the circuit.

Ox Drover


Darling we have seen you through all this from ABSOLUTELY INSANE-CRAZEEEEEEE to where you at least can remember your own name! LOL

NOTHING you do is going to make him behave any better, he is out to make you as crazeeeeee as he possibly can and he literally stays up nights with his new “lover” thinking of ways to pith you off and make you crazeeeeee. The hair shaving thing is only ONE example. “You didn’t tell me not to” LOL ROTFLMAO BTW my son looked at the photo of your junior and said, “I think she ought to give the kid a MOHAWK. When it grows out some, get him a MOHAWK. He is small enough he won’t know the diference or grow him a rat tail and plait it, or have him a mullett LOL And then tell jerk face that you want him to get that hair do for RELIGIOUS REASONS. LOL

Might as well mess with his head too. LOL (I’m just kidding, you know that) (((hugs))) and my prayers always.


Or send daddy pics of Jr in Kaliforniiya on YOUR beach vacation, donning his speedo’s and holding a barbie doll with a MULLET!

Don’t react.
Think of the serenity prayer……..



First thought you meant holding a Barbie doll with a mullet.
Then I read the previous;
(thank you; cutting and pasting in a memorable place.) and now understand: Jr, with a mullet and Speedo holding a barbie.

Tell your Jr. my Jr. HAD a fauxhawk until jerkface shaved his head.
(just how do you think I coped with all those cheap hair cuts!?)

Happy thoughts as I lie down.
Heaping burning coals on jerkface’s head is exhausting.



What the hay…..give Barbie a mullet too! 🙂
Night Fad….sleep tight on allthose warm coals….


might be exhausting work FAD – but somebody’s gotta do it! 🙂


The exhaustion does not end.

We were forced to go to court because he would not negotiate a new parent schedule due to him being laid off. (he then had his regular generous visitation PLUS had our son while I worked M-F)
Even after showing proof that Jerkface lied to me and waited for me to sign the custody agreement before telling me lost his job (signed unter false pretense) they maintained that it was still signed into agreement.

I got our son into daycare 2 days a week, and he only lost one overnight! Screeeeeech!

Then they say he can go on vacation (out of the country) US VI, denied our son a passport.

within 4 hours I get this:

“Please fill out the attached, have it notarized, and send it asap. I would like to go on Wednesday to get his passport.”

To which I reply:
“According to my attorney, a Passport has been denied.
You will have to contact your attorney regarding this matter.”

So JF says:
“Not a problem. Where we are going in the Caribbean he does not need a passport. However, it would have been in his best interest to have one for safety and security reasons. ”

What an ass! I say it would be in our son’s best interest not to be subjected to your selfish reasons for leaving the country under the pretense of “getting your way”.
The Contiguous United States have a LOT to offer and what kind of American are you for not realizing how blessed we are for the freedoms and safety we have been afforded, and the amount of “centuries” of history we have within our own great nation.
To name a few great sights: the Hoover Dam, Mount Vernon, Philadelphia, Washington Dc, Boston, New Orleans, Grand Canyon, Carlsbad Caverns, Redwoods National Park, and what about the underground railroad and Harriet Tubman, Frederick Douglas, Rosa Parks, don’t forget Betsy Ross and Susan B Anthony…………etc. etc. You get the point. Oh no, you don’t. That’s right until 2 years ago, when you went and found yourself a sugar momma you’d only been to Texas and Canada. And you haven’t picked up a book for anything other than sexual entertainment since the 7th grade. So you REALLY have no idea what adventures, education and potential for cultural enrichment and awaits us within the boarders of this measly nation.


And BTW that mumbo jumbo about links in a chain was plagiarized by Jerkface straight from this site!


FAD……breathe girl.

Fear vs Anger
If we are fearful, we think we are more at risk than if we’re angry:

Given the fact you will be ‘dealing’ with these issues with daddy-0 for years……
I think it might be helpful to you if you look at your fears/anger and write them out…..separating them.

Know the difference between the two and separate them out.

And remember to take those breaths!


Your reply to his email was good. Keep copies of all of this email correspondence; just file it away “in case”.

What a jerk! If it’s “not a problem”, then why the hell did he ask for it in the first place? Keep your wits about you; I sense a trap here. I know you are not silly enough to fall for it, but first he says he wants a passport, then he says it doesn’t matter because he is only going to “the Caribean” anyhow…I don’t trust that he didn’t just tell you that in the hope that you would drop your guard and think, “Well – okay then, seeing as he’s only going THERE….” and sign for the passport; after which I am sure he would have gone anywhere else but the Caribean.

You poor thing! What a constant stress. Chin up girl, and watch your back. xx

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