By O.N. Ward
Every week, a chapter of my book, “Husband, Liar, Sociopath: How He Lied, Why I Fell For It & The Painful Lessons Learned” (available via Amazon.com, just click on the title or book cover) will be published here on Lovefraud. To read prior chapters, please see the links at the bottom of the post.
Chapter 3: Sociopath Math
I can almost hear the collective cacophony. “Onna! That can’t be the whole story. There has to be something more to it. There are always two sides.”
In an attempt to be fair and to give everyone involved the benefit of the doubt, we tend to discount and dismiss malicious, destructive behavior. Sociopaths count on this. Contrary to the popular saying, there are not always two valid sides to any story (and it would not surprise me if it was a sociopath who first planted this idea in our collective unconscious). Are there two sides to the story of Bernie Madoff’s multi-billion dollar Ponzi scheme? Does the heart-breaking story of Laci Peterson and her unborn son’s 2002 Christmas-time murder at the hands of her philandering husband Scott have two sides? What about the conviction of ex-policeman Drew Peterson for murdering his third wife—are there two sides to that story? (His fourth wife has been missing since 2007.) It is critical to realize that there does not have to be more to the story of Paul and Jenny—not if Paul is a sociopath.
Since we have empathy and a conscience, it is almost impossible for us to imagine that there are people, like Paul, who are devoid of both. Yet, there are—lots of them. To help silence those voices in your head that want to give Paul a legitimate side to the story, I would like to give you a crash course in what I call sociopath math.
Although simplistic, I’m guessing we make tradeoffs and choices when we balance our needs against the needs of others by some implicit mental math: We compare the importance of a person to us and the importance of their needs to the importance of our needs. As a result, sometimes we will compromise our needs in favor of someone else’s, and at other times we will allow our needs to trump those of another person. But a sociopath does not and cannot care about other people, so the importance of any other person to the sociopath is always zero (unless the sociopath is valuing the other person as part of a long-term manipulation). Let that simmer in your mind for a moment. Since a sociopath always values every other person at zero, the sociopath’s need, no matter how small, always trumps the other person’s need, no matter how big. It does not matter if that other person is the sociopath’s child, parent, spouse, sibling, or a total stranger. Of course, a sociopath does not act like this at first, because his initial priority is to lure you into developing a relationship—one that can be leveraged for his gain.
For Paul, his need for a wife to be a built-in maid, cook, errand runner, dog watcher, and source of sex trumped Jenny’s need to lay a solid educational and financial foundation for her future. As a sociopath, Paul never gave her needs or her future a second thought. It was always only about how Paul could use Jenny to serve his needs. End of story. There are no two-sides to this story, no footnotes needed. No happy ending possible for Jenny, me, Paul’s new wife, or any of his future targets.
Speaking of footnotes, the sports car Paul took from his first marriage is likely also a manifestation of sociopath math. I am not suggesting that the purchase of a hot sports car is a sign that someone might be a sociopath. However, for Paul to have purchased a sports car at that point in his life suggests warped priorities, the kind associated with a selfish, stimulation-seeking, status-hungry sociopath. Why on earth would a man with no savings, an entry-level job, and a wife in college with prohibitive student loans choose an expensive sports car as the family car? Wouldn’t the money saved on a more practical car have been better spent on the education of the woman he “loved,” who gave up her free Stanford education and relocated across the country to be his wife?
It would have been helpful if I had investigated and determined the truth about Paul and Jenny’s relationship earlier, because it contained multiple early warning signs. Why did Paul get Jenny to marry so young? Why did he get her to give up so much (a free Stanford education) to become his wife? If they were destined to be together, why not wait to get married after Jenny graduated? Why did Paul not make any tradeoffs so he and Jenny could be together? Who really suffered disproportionately by their short marriage?
Unfortunately, what I did not have was the knowledge that every woman needs to be vigilant for signs the man with whom she is falling in love might be a sociopath. Paul exhibited many signs that only now do I realize are relevant: a sense of instant compatibility; someone clearly interested in being in charge or being in control; a life-story that elicited “pity”; emotional isolation of a partner even, ostensibly, for valid reasons (i.e., Jenny’s emotional isolation as Paul’s wife); short relationships; lack of fear or strain in situations most others find stressful (e.g., a rigorous graduate program that did not faze Paul); and selfish behavior (the sports car, getting Jenny to give up her Stanford education). A dangerous constellation was already starting to form, but I didn’t know about sociopaths. The water was receding from the beach, but I certainly did not know the warning signs. It never occurred to me that a feeling of instant compatibility with an attractive, smart fellow Yale MBA candidate who was comfortable taking the lead and who seemed calm when others were stressed could be warning signs of anything dark and malevolent. It seemed more like a dream come true.
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Notes
Identifying names, places, events, characteristics, etc. that I discuss here and in my book have been altered to protect the identity of everyone involved.
The psychopath wormed his way into my life
Now I know. When my brother-in-law said to me, “There are two sides to every story”, I remember feeling really irritated with him. He was defending his other brother who was very jealous and abusive to my husband and I. This brother was even physically abusive to us. Where was the ‘other’ side of the story?
.
Sounds like a smokescreen comment to deflect blame from the truth of what he did and said, by hinting that there is some other unknown fact – the ‘other side of the story’ that somehow changes the truth about what he did. When people toss word salad at us, we can get too off balance to ask, “What is the other side of the story that no one knows that somehow magically changes the truth?”
What I have learned: while there definitely ARE “red flags of lovefraud” it is not foolproof and yes, we can continue to be fooled. Some sociopaths are very good liars and manipulators. And normal people are — normal. So it is good to be sociopath-aware, but it is not 100% so don’t feel bad if you get hooked into another relationship. Just recognize it earlier, protect yourself a bit more at the beginning, and get out as soon as you recognize it. Don’t give the “benefit of the doubt.”
With regard to those liars, and there being “two sides” to the matter. No. If one person is telling the truth, and the other person is lying or deceiving, then there may be “two sides” to the matter (a lying side and a truthful side) — the TRUTH does not lie somewhere “in the middle.” The truth lies wherever the truth lies — period.
Lies mixed with truth are simply lies. It is like a little bit of salt (lies) mixed with water (truth): you get salty water. Lies.
The task for normal, loving people is to learn and accept that some people are liars and deceivers. And to eventually learn to discern the lies, and not take everyone at face value. Even just ONE stupid lie that you uncover — trust me, that is more “salty water” and there is not just one lie. There will be more — many more. Definitely run!
Dear Annette,
You are right about what society can recognize. And what society can’t. As for what Bev wrote, I think what I heard her say is that she never bonded with her son. And therefore, there was no loss of bond to grieve over. I think this is very hard for a mother to say. We are to expected to bond with our children even if they’re jackals. I think this the discussion women need to start having. When you are involved with abusive people its okay to want to get away from them, even if they are your own spawn. And maybe what you are grieving is that you are not grieving because it is not a loss. These spaths cause you to question your own humanity which is very dangerous. Once you recognize something is wrong or even bad aren’t we saying to run for the hills on this website. So why do we feel the need as women and mothers to retain destructive ties to the spaths in the form of dangerous and destructive children? Food for thought.
Yes, I think that I never bonded with my son. That is hard to say. Especially when I was young. It is much easier to say now.
It is not something that I ever tell any one, though. Only my mother, and on this site. It is nothing to brag about nor be particularly proud of. It goes against humanity. And, yes, it does make you question your own…
Thank you for what you said. We are expected to bond with our children, at our own peril, no matter what. Look at Ted Bundy’s mother. Or Paul Bernardo’s. I have heard people say that a mother should always love her son (or child) no matter what. Should always stand by them. That ‘those’ people need love to. Really??? I don’t think that they do need love at all. They just NEED a parental cover at times to make themselves ‘look good’ to others.
I did, however, still grieve the loss of ‘my son’, but perhaps not to such a larger or deeper extent, as the bond was never really there to begin with.
Yikes…that sentence looks like word salad…sorry about that.
‘That ‘those’ people need love TOO’…sorry for the grammar.
I am finding myself extremely sad after this conversation.
What a tragedy it all is, really.
Thank you all so much for all of your support and kindness. What would I do without you all??
I am so happy that I found this site. I can talk on here, like I cannot talk any where else. I appreciate that.
I believe I understand what you say, I don’t perceive word salad.
I found this site the best of several that I participated in. I felt sorry for victims, like my ex psychopath’s first ex wife, who went through the spath experience before the internet. I don’t think I would have survived – probably would have committed homicide or suicide.
Most people, including me before my spath experience, think people who do bad things are normal people like us who are mistaken, misguided, etc. Sometimes that’s true, but it was my first awakening when I realised that the psychopath I was ‘married’ to wanted to be doing what he was doing. So true that spaths don’t need, appreciate, nor deserve the normal expressions of love. No contact is probably the best way to express love for them. That is a complete tragedy because is is the opposite of what human life is about.
I was thinking the word ‘tragedy’ just now, too. For me, understanding, and indulging to some extent, the pain and loss the psychopath caused me, helped me recover.
I understand what you’re saying. There is no way someone is going to have the warm fuzzy feeling of ‘love’ that results from a normal relationship, in a relationship with a spath. The loss is, like you said, the loss of a relationship that never was. For a parent of a child who died as an infant the loss is more easily defined and grieved. The loss is the expectation of a happy life raising a child. I imagine that the disappointment, frustration and pain of a parent who loses a child to the disorder of psychopathy can sometimes be harder to define and grieve a loss of the hopes and expectations of a relationship. Spaths always cause pain and harm in others.
When I realized amidst the insanity and pain of covert abuse, pathological lies, manipulations, etc. that the ‘man’ I loved (because I am capable of love, not because he deserved it) was a horrible disgusting evil person, people in general did not recognize my grief because there’s no great loss getting away from a harmful evil person. But I grieved the loss of my expectations for the relationship and for the person he deceived me into thinking he is.
You are so good at putting into words that which I cannot.
I grieve for my son…I grieve for me…I grieve for my husband.
I think I have been grieving for almost 35 years, (all of my son’s life), for that which will never be.
I have no ‘love’ for my son on the sense that I should have. I know that he has no love for me, or any one, at all. That actually makes things easier. I had to accept that before I could get to where I am now.
I accept it and I am moving on. It is all that I can do.
IN the sense, not ON the sense…gosh
When you say you don’t love your son as you should, do you mean you don’t love him in the ways you would if he loved you as a son should love his parent? It seems like your response to him has been very giving and caring. You can’t make a relationship happen that he is not wired and motivated to have. Anger, resentment, pain, and just plain wanting to beat the cr*p out of people who harm and exploit us (including our children) is normal; and you’ve apparently not indulged in those feelings, and in that way you’ve done the action of love towards your son.
Giving to someone harmful to you when it doesn’t benefit them makes no sense. I concluded that I’d give even my life for my ex psychopath if it would benefit him, but it would not in any real meaningful manner. (I’m sure he’d be ‘happy’ if I were dead as his alimony obligation would end, but that’s another story) I have no contact with him because that is the absolute best I can do for him.
Consider that if there were something you could do for your son that would really help him, and you would do it. That is loving him as you should.
Yes, that’s right AnnettePK.
I feel as you do…as if having no contact is not only the best thing for me, but it is also the best thing for him. It is the best thing that I can do for him, not only for myself. I feel like it will save both of us.
I will not die for him. Not unless he were being attacked by a grizzly or I had to save him from a fire or drowning.
When I am witnessing the things that he does in his life, and seeing who he is and how he thinks about and looks at life, I feel like I am indeed dying. I can and will not let that happen.
Dear Annette, P.S.
In other words, all that glitters is not gold. And mean, treacherous, perjurious children are no exception. Women who find themselves in this unfortunate situation need to follow their instincts more and worry about what society says less.
Absolutely. The worst situation is to pretend something is good and right when it is not.
Whatever the level of loss is, from a mom who never really bonded with a spath child, to a woman who bonded and committed to the fake spath wearing a mask who appeared to be a good guy who loved her, it’s more difficult to identify the loss and grieve it than in a straightforward death. Unfulfilled expectations and hopes for a good and normal relationship that is supposed to be loved based can be a loss.
Something else that comes to my mind is the idea that was prevalent in the 50’s and 60’s that autism was caused by the mother being cold and not bonding to the child. The truth is the opposite – because autistic babies and children fail to return the eye contact, smiles, and other interactions initiated by the mom, most mothers naturally don’t continue to initiate interactions that get no response.
Yes. Yes.
My gut tells me that I am right. It has all along, but I questioned myself for years and tried to make it all work out. Tried to be a supportive and loving mother.
It just wasn’t ‘right’. It felt wrong.
It is gut- wrenching.
You were and are a supportive and loving mother, because you are capable of love and giving support and you choose to do so. You son’s response based on his motives due to his disorder is what is wrong. You did what you discerned was best based on the information you had. Reading and posting here, examining/questioning yourself, is doing everything within your power to do do the best you can for yourself and your son. That is what love is.
🙂
Thank you so much AnnettePK.
Thank you.
Thank you for sharing here; it’s been good connecting with you.
Anyone with suggestions, please comment – I am lost……I feel like here I am the sister that is trying to save my little sister, who is battling breast cancer, from this psychopath she has been dating (he lives with her) & met on a dating website WHILE HE WAS MARRIED & he has 5small kids (girls, which my dad tells me to be patient because his daughters will see how he is and one day their husbands/boyfriends will see how he is and probably move them away from him) for over 2 years. The more I read – I am positive he is one of the worst ever!!! He is also ex-military, so he is trained well. As my sister told me, “You damn right he’s a manipulator – he’s one of the best because he was trained by our Military”. He fits EVERY description I have read. I have left literature about Gaslighting, Psychopaths, etc. emailed & texts her links, etc……..and now she basically hates me and doesn’t want to talk to me. I feel like this is going to be a long road to make up when she wakes up – she continues to tell me she is smart and no one will take her for a ride….he already had her borrow over $100K against her house that was paid off. What triggered anyone’s mind to eventually say, “Hey, maybe my two sisters that I have been so very close with my ENTIRE life, and we used to talk and be together at least 2-3 times a day/week may be looking out for my best interest and I should actually try to see what they have to say” . I know a lot of places I read they say she has to learn on her own, but I feel like he has her brain (especially while she has had chemo) so messed up she can’t even think for herself. She has even went as far as saying I caused her to have cancer because I stressed her out about trying to tell her, “I know this guy is manipulating you and you’re not yourself anymore”. That was like putting a knife in me…..hurt very bad. Did I deserve it? Am I being ridiculous? I can understand now by reading up on this so much – but I miss her so much and we were the closest sisters ever – I can’t understand why she thinks I would ever want to hurt her. She would normally be the person talking about one of her friends being taken – this is NOT like her. Thanks for anyone’s comments who has been in my boat – I am pretty sure I just have to wait it out – but it’s killing me. Thanks!!!
It sounds like you are right about him. It has to be so painful to watch what he is doing to your sister and how he is exploiting and harming her, and not be able to protect her. He is likely to be controlling her, even using hypnotic techniques, in powerful ways.
When I was under the control of my ex psychopath, my friends and family who were aware of what was going on tried to help me, to get me to ‘wake up.’ But until I was ready to leave, nothing anyone could say to me made any difference.
It sounds like you’ve let your sister know about your concerns. Even though she doesn’t believe you’re right now, she will have your comments to think about when she is ready.
If you can maintain a good relationship with her, so she knows you’re there to help her when she’s ready to get out, she may accept your help when she’s ready. If you keep a close relationship with her and don’t criticize her to the point where she stops sharing with you, you are more likely to know if she gets in physical danger. If she tells you things that make you feel like shaking her into her senses, consider asking her questions that might help her gain some insights. Even if she doesn’t hear you at the time, she will have what you’ve said to draw on later.
I read many things and was told many things that I ignored and/or disagreed with at the time; but when I was ready to face the truth about my ex psychopath I had them in my mind to draw on.
Dear AnnettePK,
Thank you – this makes me feel better. Yeah, I have been trying to tell her I will not mention his name and that I want to be sisters again like we have always been. She hasn’t replied……I don’t think she trusts me because I am the sister who does say it like it is, but I am really going to try so I can be close with her. I have told her over & over again we will all be there for her when he takes her down….I guess I could leave the “when he takes you down” part off, but again I am trying. He recently had her evict our mom who lived in my sisters garage converted apartment so right now she feels like she is in a litigation with our mom, & other sister. Tonight she is going to dinner with our dad & my 4 kids. My dad asked her if myself & my other sister should come and she told him no. That hurt! Our dad (my parents are divorced) who we worship does like this psychopath either but he hasn’t told my sister because he is trying to keep somewhat of a relationship with her so we can at least keep up with her cancer. We were so sick we haven’t been able to be there to take care of her and rub her poor little bald head after losing all of her beautiful hair!
Dear Bev,
and Annette
There are so many posts I can’t find your last one but I want to point an observation out. I see just from this morning from your posts that you are evolving down to the issue. And that is it is possible and probable that good mothers don’t feel love children. And if that’s the case what’s the reason? And we as good and loving people flinch at the thought. But I actually accept it. And what to be done with this charade; they pretend to be respectable and I pretend to love them. Of course I’m talking about children like your son. Where there’s nothing to plug into. Why continue the pretense? Why allow to society to act like spaths don’t exist and why allow society to make us pretend to love the spath? In all of my readings on this one thing I’ve learned is that we train ourselves out of our animal instincts and we step into the role that other people want us to assume. Which in some cases is feed the spaths, nature the spaths, hold the spath out as respectable, keep the spath next to you. What foolhardiness and why would I continue to ignore my instincts-when they are screaming out at me? I think more women feel this way than we know. Who knows what Ted Bundy’s mother felt? I don’t believe she was dumb. I’m inclined to think she knew but she couldn’t say. When your eyes see something why act like you are not seeing what you are seeing? I find it liberating. I’m not dragged down caring forward people who don’t love me and wish me ill. I guess what I’m saying is in these extreme circumstances its okay not to love your children and its okay to say it. But by saying this spaths want us and other to think there is something wrong with us for not “loving” other spaths just because we have the name “mother”. I say there’s nothing wrong with us. Right now in my life I’m looking for the truth and I’m looking for solutions. It’s easier this way.
Thank you for this good summary. Yes, spaths will use our humanity and whatever else they can twist around against us to manipulate us. Much of the world buys into their spin.
Love defined as an action, rather than just a warm feeling, is what one can choose. Seeking truth and solutions is the most loving thing one can do – for oneself, the spath, the universe.
The Biblical definition of love in 1 Corinthians 13 essentially defines love as a set of actions, including, “(love) does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth” (vs. 6). Feeling warm towards someone in the face of being mistreated, manipulated, abused, lied to and lied about, is not part of the Biblical definition of love. In general, the Bible’s instructions for dealing with people who are harmful is to stay away from them and not to act like them (Matt 18:17). 1 John 5:16 says there are some people that we are not even to pray for. I discern it’s useless to pray for my ex psychopath because he is doing exactly what he wants to be doing. He doesn’t want what I would pray for him. My prayers for him would be useless.
I think of Love as the quality of vibration of our energy. An analogy might be, a continuum of “poison” vs “nutrient,” or negative to positive. Or destructive to nurturing. Love is nurturing rather than harmful. So yes, it is kind of a feeling. I like the way you put it, that Love into action is the choice we make of how to apply it. But I do think of it more as a motivating quality, as in the Biblical passage you reference. It is HOW we do something, not so much “love is a verb” because it just seems more (to me) to be a quality. And it is this ability to receive and transmit this love vibration, that sociopathic relationships interfere with. I think of them as toddlers with baseball bats in a china shop. It seems way more fun to them to declare ownership by destroying through smashing, than to appreciate the beauty without harming or interfering with its expression.
TRUTH.
Love IS truth.
There is NO truth in my son.
Oh my, yes!
That is where I feel like I am at now, as well. It IS liberating.
I used to have dreams of being ‘trapped’…like I was in a building that I could not find my way out of. There would just be more hallways and rooms and no doors to exit out of. Almost like a maze. Or, I would be trying to get down off of something, like a mountain top, or even a large piece of equipment, like farm equipment (a plow) or a freaky too tall semi truck…and I just can’t do it! I cannot find a way off or down. The dreams intensifies when HE brought two children into the world. Perhaps I felt an obligation to them, as their grandmother. I know now, that I have no obligation to make up to them for, what HE is not.
Since I have been realizing the obvious of my situation with my son, I have had fewer of those dreams. I have complete realization of my situation now, so I feel less trapped, I suppose.
I really do know that there is nothing wrong with me, now. It took a long time to figure things out, that’s for sure.
Like you, I only accept truth. Trust. Love.
AnnettePK has the definition of love underneath my post here. From the bible. It is all about TRUTH.
My son has no truth.
Bev,
You are a kind person and your story about your son has helped me come to terms with my own children. It’s okay what you feel. That’s what I’m trying to say. It’s okay to love , i.e.: our mothers, our husbands and not to love. Let’s keep talking. Let’s keep plumbing. Let’s keep healing. The closer we get to the bone the more we can heal. You have suffered too long.
becomingstrong,
What a lovely and warm post. You know, I feel like it is YOU who has helped ME come to terms with how I feel about my son. Isn’t that something, huh? I hope that I have indeed helped you as well. That is so wonderful to hear.
Even though I feel the way that I feel towards my son, and it goes against the human grain, I do now know that it is right to feel the way that I do. I know that I am a wonderful person. I need truth in life, that’s all. I NEED IT.
You, and others, and this site, has helped me to realize all of this.
Over the weeks and months I have read all of your posts, some to me, some not To me, and I see that like you, I too can become that strong and confident person that I once was, again. You certainly strike me as strong and confident. I will put money on that you do not feel 100% that way, but that is what you exude. Strength and confidence and truth.
You also exude SO much warmth and love, that I KNOW that I too am the same warm and loving person that you are. That I ALWAYS have been. That we both always have been. In fact, likely ALL of the people on this site are just that…and we have lost confidence in our own humanity, as AnnettPK said. We have doubted ourselves and our wonderful qualities because of the SPs in our lives and how our experiences with them they have literally changed us.
You, too have suffered much. And, we are healing for sure.
Oh yes, let’s keep plumbing, let’s keep talking…let’s heal!!
Dear Bev,
I am so sorry it has taken you so many years to come some terms with this nightmare. I envy you that you live with your mother who obviously is a loving person. What a support system. My life with this situation is pretty awful. But I have to say it pales in comparison as to what you had to deal with. You have had to come to terms with the unfortunate and essential fact that your only child is bad to the bone, diagnosed bad to the bone. And that his legacy and his future will be one of hurting human beings, the last thing a good mother wants for her child. You were going through this before the internet, before chat forms, before CPS involvement was so prevalent, basically in the dark ages. You are stronger than you think. And now we have learned it is okay not to “love” our own children. When we love someone we can’t control it. It just comes forward whether they deserve it or not. It’s a feeling. And we don’t love someone, or we stop loving someone, we can’t control that either. It’s just a feeling. I’m done with pretense. I am done with trying to make think my marriage is okay, that my husband is respectable, that my children love me, that I love them. What for? It’s just too much work and it’s too painful. Talking about not loving your own children is worse than admitting to be a child molester. Why? The truth is worse than a dirty word. Look at what we are forced to live with. We were dutiful, caring, responsible, ever vigilant, put the needs of our children first, until we had no option but to face the truth.
Michele started this whole discussion saying she lost custody of her children when they took the stand and falsely accused her of abuse. Michele seemed to be focused on the spathic husband, but not at all focused on the dangerous lying children. I would be very leery of children who could testify in court voluntarily that their abused them, even if were true, but I’m especially afraid of children who would expose their mother to public vilification, criminal charges, arrest, and loss of employment based on a lie. But Michele is going to have to get there on her own. And we mothers need to put our foot down and distance ourselves from such children. And once we do then we also move solving the problem of spaths and remove one weapon out their arsenal, using the kids. And there be consequences for these children. I’m sure everyone wants to hear this but there it is. We are always looking for ways to get out from underneath the abuse. We have physically peel them off of you. I don’t want to spend a lifetime trying to convince my children I am worthy of their love. I now see how ridiculous that is.
I cam across this post today…it is pertinent to a lot of our collective situations.
We are supposed to naturally separate from our families of origin and it is healthy to do so.
It is one of the BEST posts that I have ever read. I hope my link works…I have never done this before…lol.
http://www.mindbodygreen.com/0-24867/the-single-most-destructive-factor-in-your-search-for-real-love.html?utm_source=mbg&utm_medium=email&utm_content=daily&utm_campaign=160504-the-single-most-destructive-factor-in-your-search-for-real-love
I forgot to say, that while I do not actually live WITH my mother, we do live very close to each other. 5 minutes away! How fantastic is that.
I am extremely fortunate to have her in my life, and yes, she is my biggest supporter, and also has shown me the most pure and unconditional love of any one in my life.
Bev,
I loved the link. Yes we are “individuals” Once we recognize that we are “ourselves” first, mother’s, wives, daughters etc.. second we will be more likely to establish healthy boundaries. I couldn’t agree more. Now when I introduce myself at a school function I will always say my name first and then I say “I’m xxxx mother”. It’s just a little reminder to myself that I should and do have my own identity. I believe that when we teach our children that we have our own identities and show them by example that we are our own people in our own right, they’ll be respectful of us and of others, including themselves. I grew up with a very selfless mother, however, she was doormat and we knew that she had boundaries if we crossed them there would be consequences. We knew if we made an accusation against her we could pack our bags right then and right there. We knew she would not put up with rotten kids. I greatest fear was that we would let her down. Not that we didn’t act up, we did, and weren’t perfect. But we new there consequences. I was doormat. I equated selflessness as having no expectations and no boundaries and that was the wrong way to go. Thank you Bev for the link.
P.S. Your mother and you are lucky to live so close.
I know…isn’t it a great article.
Individuation. I have never even heard of that. I agree with everything in it.
Yes, that’s how it was in my childhood, too, with my mother (and my father). I did not want to ever disappoint them or let them down. They expected certain behaviors of me and taught me well. I think that it a good and healthy trait.That means that we are loving and respectful towards our parents. And empathetic as well.
I don’t know why I thought this link would be pertinent to our conversation here, but as soon as I saw it…for some reason, I wanted to share it with everyone. If nothing else, I think it explains why many marriages or unions break apart.
I almost think that people who dysfunctionally ‘cling’ to their origin families, are somewhat disordered. It is healthy to want to let go of familial traits that are ‘bad’ or that you do not agree with. Keep the good and let go of the bad. Seemingly, it is also healthy to want to ‘let go’ of a family member who may be disordered, then, as the relationship is uncomfortable to you and does not ‘feel’ healthy or right.
Very interesting dialog between you Bev, Annette and becomingstrong on the subject of emotional feeling toward the disordered person(s)in our lives. And I enjoyed reading the link you provided, Bev about Individuation, which I too had never heard of. I can apply it to my own life in that I feel my marriage is all the more strong and stable due to the fact that we moved 600 mi. away from any family members on either my or my husband’s side 30 yrs ago. So my husband and I grew as a couple over the years and leaned on eachother for support. We didn’t have a lot of familial meddling in our lives on a daily basis. And as a result we’re not as close to either of our families, but that’s okay and probably for the best. Turns out neither of our families of origin are all that great anyway.
Bev, one comment I have about your feelings toward your son is that it is much better to see the reality of the situation as you do than to view everything through “mom goggles” as my own mother does regarding my sociopathic sister. When a mother refuses to see their sociopath child for what they truly are, they become part of the lies, part of the ongoing charade and drama. They become the sociopath’s enabler making them that much more powerful. This enabling by my mother has pretty much destroyed my family of origin. My sister has all the power in the family and can lie, steal and manipulate to her evil greedy heart’s content. I love your assertion that truth is paramount to relationships. Like you, I have no interest in people that are not to be trusted. Without trust you have nothing in a relationship, and that includes siblings, children and spouses.
I guess I’m rambling a bit but just wanted to share those thoughts and that I empathize with the human tragedy of having to distance our hearts from someone that we “should” be close to, but are unable to due to their disorder. It comes down to self preservation. To someone like me that values trust it is just impossible to deal with someone that deceives me repeatedly. My heart just can’t take being duped and deceived. There is no other choice but distance and cutting ties. I grieve for the loss of my sister but at the same time I realize I never really had a true sister. She was always lurking behind me ready to stab me in the back at the first opportunity. I don’t hate her, I just choose not to make myself available to her for her to manipulate, lie, gaslight, backstab, slander…and on and on. It never ends. Thanks to all of you for sharing your experiences and helping eachother to heal. I too would be lost without forums such as this where I can discuss my feelings and emotions. So hard for anyone to understand us that hasn’t dealt with disordered people in their lives.
My goodness, Wounded1, I always feel as if you say exactly what I would say, were I better at putting into words. what I really want to communicate.
I am beginning to think that perhaps people that say ‘family is everything’ and people who thrive on dysfunction in their families, anr disordered in some way.
That may sound harsh and perhaps even judgmental, but how many times have you seen that play out? On the news the other night, there was a story about the son of a fire chief, who burnt down and totally destroyed a train bridge, vital to the town where they all live. The son has a lot of other prior crimes, even some with fire. The son is also a volunteer fireman! Well, the father gets on TV and says, ‘I will stand by my son, no matter what, just like I always have. He is my son. Family.’
All I could think was…what an idiot. What a fool. What an enabler.
Am I wrong to think that way? Or, are there too many people enabling disordered family members. Are they themselves, disordered, or are they only seeing things through parental ‘goggles’, like you say?
I do see my son for who and what he is. I have never been that mother, though, that justified any of his behavior. I don’t know why, I just never was that person. I did give him plenty of benefits of the doubt over the years, because I did not know about sociopathy (or any personality disorders) and what it meant. I did not know that people existed without a conscience or empathy. But, I never excused any of it. It is just not who I am. Too bad for my son, I guess.
You are not rambling. You never do. Everything you say is so spot on and needs to be said so that we can understand it properly. That is why all of your posts (and your writing) is/are so excellent.
I love reading your posts and am always thrilled when you do post!
Thank you.
Firesetting and arson is a classic sign of psychopathy. I think it’s difficult to discern exactly where the Dad stands from that one quote. He may have said more that qualified his statement that wasn’t included. He may not really understand his son’s disorder, and he may mean that he supports his son in doing right, but doesn’t condone nor justify his criminal activity. It may be that the dad is in denial, and/or doesn’t understand psychopathy. Whatever his level of understanding and experience, his son’s choices are likely to be causing him and his family a lot of pain. He is likely to have had a difficult journey behind him and a difficult one ahead of him.
It sounds like you did the best possible under painful circumstances. Even if it did not facilitate positive change in your son, I doubt it was bad for him.
Yesa, that is a fair and good point AnnettePK.
I believe that my husband was doing that for a long while, regarding our son. First, my husband (nor I for that matter) knew the meaning of a personality disorder. Then, I think what you said about supporting the possibility of our son getting on the right track, also came into play.
Dear Wounded,
I loved the “mommy goggles”. Isn’t that the truth. Good that you are far away. When mother’s ignore what is plain in front of their faces they end up hurting themselves, they deprive themselves of healthy relationships, and they hurt others as a byproduct. I am sorry. But good you see it. I don’t want to be one of those mothers.
@bev
‘I am beginning to think that perhaps people that say ’family is everything’ and people who thrive on dysfunction in their families, anr disordered in some way.’
‘Am I wrong to think that way? Or, are there too many people enabling disordered family members. Are they themselves, disordered, or are they only seeing things through parental ’goggles’, like you say?’
I think an awful lot of people do this. And althoughh I’m guessing that you mean ‘personality disordered’ I think parents whose children have other problems do the same thing. Parents whose children are on drugs have to make difficult choices – I can remember on T.V. a Dad who’d done everything he could think of and finally it was ‘consequences’. No more rescuing. It will be what it is. Whilst I can remember a Mum on a different programme getting drugs for her daughter on the grounds that at least she knew where the drugs were coming from (i.e. they were safe), so she was going through the same journey.
In some ways it’s possible that ‘losing’ a child to psychopathy might be very similar to ‘losing’ a child to drugs, extreme criminal behaviour or abuse. Not exactly the same, but similar.
Yes, interesting.
Some people are always saying ‘family is everything’ and many of those people seem dysfunctional, themselves. Like, as in, I know more than a few ‘heavy drinkers’ who particularly like to lament these trite sayings while they are half cut. Then, they throw back another shot or drink. This, after they have told a sad or bad story about what is going on in their family. I always wonder…are these people happy? Why are they drinking so much? Is that ‘family is everything’ dynamic really comforting them and bringing them happiness, or, perhaps, is it actually hurting them instead and they cannot or will not see it.
I do love the word FAMILY. It denotes trust and warmth and safety. I love my mother. I love my husband. I love some other people in my family. THEY are everything to me, HOWEVER, some family members are NOT everything to me. In fact, there are a few that I want nothing to do with at all, ever.
AND, I am not in denial or afraid to say it any more.
Bev,
You have two principals in your life whom you consider to be family, your mother, and your husband. I’m going to go out on a limb here, but I’m assuming your husband isn’t related to you by blood. You chose him. And brought down your specter of family and dubbed him family. We can chose who family is. We have that control and must exercise it. They want to enslave us to their definition. For example: This is your son, he is your family, no matter what horrible thing he does to you. Since We have decided your son is your family, because you are related by blood, you must love, cherish and protect him. Even when he’s gouging out your eyeballs. And if you don’t do that, you are a bad person. And since you are not a spath you are sensitive to wondering if you are a bad person. I say to hell to these corrupted notions. I will bring people into my fold and call them family as I see fit. And I will banish those who are hateful and dangerous, even if their names is son or daughter, as I see fit. As far as legal obligations, I will comply them, i.e.: possible child support assignment, education, but that’s it. I will not make excuses for them, lie for them, or cloak them with my respectability. I have no moral or legal obligation to defraud society because I’m related to somebody by blood.
Perfect. Exact.
You are a wonderful and aware person becomingstrong.
Thank you Bev I feel the same way about you.