By Ox Drover
Donna’s great article about Victory, of a sort, over a sociopath the other day got me to thinking.
Just what is “victory?”
My wonderful stepfather was a young basketball coach when he got his first real job coaching for a very small rural school which had not had a winning game in over a decade. The team was dispirited and had no real expectation of ever winning a game.
One of the local coaches bragged that he would beat them “by a hundred points!” at the next game. The team thought there was a good possibility that that coach’s team could do just that. However, it is “good sportsmanship” for a coach playing a much weaker team to let their second, third, and fourth strings get a chance to play, and to win over the weaker team, but not “tromp” them.
Daddy thought this other coach’s brag to stomp and tromp his team was poor sportsmanship so he made a plan. When the fourth quarter started and Daddy’s team had the ball, they “froze” it (which was legal in the game then) and wouldn’t either shoot the ball or take a chance on losing it, so passed the ball from one of Daddy’s team members to another the entire quarter. They didn’t make any points, but they kept the other team from even getting their hands on the ball the entire quarter, and thus making points against them. Daddy’s team didn’t win, but the other coach didn’t win by his “hundred points” either. That little team went on the next year to win their division championship because of the confidence that Daddy inspired in them.
Sometimes “winning” or “victory” can be interpreted in different ways. I’m also reminded of the old Country and Western song, the “Winner” where an older man and a younger man are in a bar talking. The younger man wants to be a “winner” in bar fight brawls, and the older man is educating him on what is “winning” and what isn’t.
Sure, you can get into a fight and you may inflict more damage on your opponent than he inflicts on you in the fight, but like the old man said, “He gouged out my eye, but I won.” Sometimes it is better to walk away from a fight and not lose more than you have already lost, or allow your opponent to take another “pound of flesh” in your attempts to “get justice.”
It isn’t always about getting what you deserve, or victory over them, or even seeing that they get “what they so richly deserve,” sometimes, I think, “winning” simply means keeping them from taking more out of you and, like Daddy’s team, “freezing the ball.” Sometimes, it is like the would-be barroom brawler, walking away (intact) with the other guy yelling curses in your direction.
It is emotionally tough to watch a cheater “get away with it” when they have ripped us off, and go “waltzing away” unscathed and apparently the victor. It eats at our sense of fairness to let them “succeed” and not pay a price for their bad behavior.
Yet, sometimes, “discretion is the better part of valor” to use an old phrase, or to “be a live dog, rather than a dead lion,” and “retreat and live to fight another day.”
Those victims who are not able to fight for a “victory” of any sort, I don’t think need to feel that they have “failed” because they chose not to fight the sociopath.
Too many times fighting the psychopaths are like “fighting a circular saw,” as my grandmother would have said. It “just isn’t worth it,” because the damage to yourself will be worse than you can possibly inflict on the psychopath. They stack the odds so in their own favor, that even if you “win,” you end up like the old brawler sitting in the barroom, broken and so gravely injured yourself in your effort to gain a “victory, of sorts” that in retrospect the price was too high.
Sometimes, it is better to walk away a “loser” but still intact, and with your head held high, using the energy and resources you have left to focus on healing yourself, on recovering what you have lost in terms of finances and strength, and take care of yourself. To me that is also a “viable victory.”
KiM, as the quote from the book says, “there is also an important difference between health self-examination and unhealthy, counterproductive self-blame”
And all those traits you mentioned, with the exception of the low self-esteem are the ones that allowed a female member of my family to become a self-confident air force pilot and a world-class rock and ice climber. so many look up to her and admire her.
Myself….I loathe my tendency to people please. Got me in trouble with the P. DEEP TROUBLE. But in my work world I’ve been called “the Hilary Clinton of diplomacy for our field” and “the most gracious leader we’ve encountered”, etc. and am known as the one who can get along with all the factions and bring them together.
I prefer to focus on Steve’s post to ask ourselves what red flags did we miss and what red flags did we see but ignore.
And yes, what trauma repetitions we might have going on, but in a non-blaming way. Sort of the way my trainer refers to my flabby arms….”here’s some exercises to strengthen that area and bring it up to the strength level of the rest of your muscle groups.” Sounds so much nicer than saying “OMG, your upper arms are flapping in the wind!”
Just that in working with a population that is prone to self-blaming, because of the way P’s work on us, it behooves us to go out of our way to word things carefully and keep reminding everyone we are NOT the problem.
Much more motivating.
Part of it too, is how long we’ve been NC, etc. If we are still dealing with the P, our self-concept has been beaten down so far it is amazing more don’t commit suicide. SO IMPORTANT to always overtly say, over and over, but WE ARE NOT THE PROBLEM. These are tools for dealing with the fact that there are bad guys, and some of us also need tools for dealing with the fact that there have been bad guys in our past, which makes some well worn paths for other bad guys to use. But the problem is the bad guys.
You can address those “issues” Kim, but they are just traits, that serve you VERY WELL in some situations, not in others. And of course ANY trait in extreme usually causes us problems, so we are wise to seek some balance.
You call it “need for excitement” . Other might call it a willingness to experience the fullness of life. The lack of it in people can lead to personalities that are afraid to travel, afraid to try anything new, boredom, unwillingness to take risks at work that lead to better results, etc.
You call it “obsessive personality”. Well, I hope to hell any pilot flying a jet I’m on is obsessive, and as gone through the checklist about three times. I hope any rock climbing partner is obsessive about what s/he is doing. I hope my doctor is obsessive , really thinks about my problems more than once, comes back to my scan again, makes sure she has the diagnosis right.
etc etc. .
I agree with the fact that even if the women walked down the street naked, she did NOT deserve to be raped, that said, there are just some things that USING GOOD SENSE will help prevent being victimized….none of us deserve to be robbed either, but we have locks on our doors, and we don’t deserve to have our car stolen, but we lock it (if we are smart and use good sense) and park it in a “safe” area if we possible can.
I do not deserve to have my P son send someone to murder me either, but I am GOING TO TAKE PRECAUTIONS not to be caught unprepared in a ‘dark alley.”
NEWS FLASH: I have not always USED GOOD SENSE, I have not always protected myself by HONORING the “red flags” and I have walked down “dark relationship alley” in a G-string when i shouldn’t have been in the alley in the first place, must less in the G-string….even if I had been wearing a burka I shouldn’t have been in the alley when I saw it was a dangerous place. I AM RESPONSIBLE FOR BEING IN THE DARK ALLEY. I am, however, NOT to blame that I got “emotionally raped”—-but i did put myself in a place that “rape” was more likely by NOT USING MY GOOD SENSE.
I may well be “emotionally raped” in the future in the bright light of day on the court house steps, but I won’t be walking in the DARK AREAS any more and at the first sign of a red flag waving I am going to make like a RABBIT AND RUN!
I can’t eliminate all the bad people in the world, but if I hang out with people who are OBVIOUSLY NOT HIGH in P-traits, honest, truthful, giving, caring people, I am LESS LIKELY to be abused.
If I hang out with a lot of ex-convicts, people who lie, people who cheat, drug addicts, etc. (high in P-traits) I am more likely to be abused.
I agree, JAH that sometimes it is difficult for people to get the “concept” that just because you were in the “alley” doesn’t mean we are “blaming” you, but …. if you keep on going back into the alley, maybe someone who cares needs to point that out as well. I kept on going back into the alley with my egg donor because I just couldn’t get it through my head that she could POSSIBLY be deliberately hurting me….and a blogger (on another site) pointed it out to me, and I didn’t want to hear it the first, or the tenth time she pointed it out, (I did not, however, flame her because she said soemthing I didn’t want to hear) but eventually she got through to me. sometimes when people get “stuck” it is only with loving concern that we CAN get through to them. Most of the time here on LF people don’t “throw tantrums” when someone points out that they are misunderstanding what is being said, they just ask for clarification.
Most people (thank goodness) on LF ASSUME that someone is trying to help them, not throw stones at them. Whether it is the person writing the article or a person commenting on a post or an article.
A person who used to post on LF that I knew in RW got horribly mad at me once for something I said on the blog we had going about sex. I said that I thought “in my opinion” sex should be in a committed one-to-one relationship due to the health risks that even a condom won’t slow down.
She e mailed me at home and FLAMMED me because she said 1) I said that sex was only for married people and 2) that I did not say “in my opinion”
NEITHER OF WHICH WAS TRUE.
Then she went on to tell me how terrible I was for hurting the feelings of all people who had had sex outside of MARRIAGE and ya da, ya da.
Putting words in my mouth (blog) that were NEVER EVEN THERE. I never did get her to see that this post was NOT POINTED AT HER because she had continued to have sex with someone she knew was sleeping with several others at the same time. (I didn’t even know this about her to start with!)
The point was though, that because she was angry at herself for some reason, or feeling guilty, or whatever reason she had and I’m not to this day sure what it was, she became LIVID with me and attacked me personally (off the blog thank goodness) and never did see that I was not condemning her personally for choosing to do something I didn’t even know she had done.
Well, I still think it is UNwise to have sex with someone (with or without a condom) who even might be having sex with someone else, and when you do, I think you are taking a big risk, a guy in texas recently infected 11 women with HIV and HE knew he had it, one of the women was in a 4 1/2 yr “committed” (she thought!) relationship with him, another one a year+ at the same time.
Maybe my friend didn’t like my opinion that I thought it was UNwise and became offended. She certainly couldn’t convince me that it WAS wise, and IT WAS ONLY MY OPINION and I said so.
People who are wounded though, don’t have to have an “excuse” to get bent out of shape though, just being wounded makes us (all of us I THINK) cranky on some level for quite some time. When a person is cranky they are easily offended. Which is one reason at this point, I normally don’t take offense if someone that I know is a recovering victim gets cranky, but I usually WILL gently point it out if it goes on and on. If they keep on attacking, I usually just disengage.
I don’t come here to offend or attack but at the same time, I don’t come here to be attacked either. some people I know better than others and some people who know me better trust that about me more than a complete newbie would, so I try to keep that in mind also when speaking to someone.
I hope that all makes some sense. Peace.
((JAH))xoxo Thankyou for your prayers and support.
You know, I think I’ve stated my position, supported my arguement, and at this point will agree to disagree, that is , if you will do the same. I’m quite adament in my position, as I see you are, too. I’m not going to change my opinion and I don’t expect you too. I might add that you made a lot of really good points.
Sorry, my cmment posted too soon. Anyway, I don’t really think we’re at odds with eachother, I think we’re both trying to recover. Maybe the sticking point is the word healthy vs. unhealthy. I never said anyone should disparage him or her self. Yes, when it comes to having a good, healthy, satisfying relationship, I have a lot to learn. Yes being obsessive might serve me well in this situation, or that one, etc. etc. etc. It doesn’t mean I’m good at relationships!!!! I”M NOT! I WOULD LIKE TRO BE AT LEAST ONCE BEFORE I DIE!!!! I’m doing what I can to do that. is that okay with you?
wow, this is a touchy subject. I just re-read my post and I was really defensive. I’m sorry about that. I do understand your position. I just don’t think you understand mine.
Kim I understand your point, and actually I think there is validity in just about everyting that we have said on this particular subject—more semantics than differences of opinion.
Yes, Oxy I agree. Why do I feel so angry? I feel really, really angy. I want to prove my point, get i n the last word, etc.etc. etc. because, I really do think I’m right….damn it!
okay. I need to stop and take a look at that! Maybe no one else does, but I do. For my own sake, I do! That’s my point.
I’m not perfect, and, ” I’m suffering from the pains of growing up, as is everyone here! ,that might seem like a ridiculious statement coming from a 50 year old but it’s true. I’m trying to re-parent myself, and learn how it’s done. Do you know what I mean?
When I see other people “cutting off their noses to spite their faces, I say, there but for the grace of God go I. But now I sound, holier than thou, and I don’t mean to. I really believe in what I say. Anyway, thanks for speaking up. Sigh. I’m tired.
Sorry if my comments made anyone angry. That was SO not my intent. My concern was for any woman who might get pushed over the edge, thinking she is to blame. (I mean all the silent readers we never hear from. Those still in the fog. That is who I was thinking about.)
Obviously I believe in working on my own issues. You should see my copy of the Betrayal Bond. As I’ve said before, the book is now falling apart, but I no longer am. 🙂
Kim, I was trying to make you feel good about yourself, not bad!
The written word is very frustrating. Missing all the love and caring that comes across when we are speaking, not typing. Had you been sitting here talking to me, I’m sure my care and concern and support would have come across. That is all I was sending in your direction.
Oxy, I agree, it is just semantics more than anything. But it is probably a lesson to me, once again, to not try to rescue. But my whole career is centered on speaking up for the helpless, so….Oh well. I can remember doing it in Kindergarten. Don’t think that is going to change. For better or worse.
PS Kim, when I said “KiM, as the quote from the book says, “there is also an important difference between health self-examination and unhealthy, counterproductive self-blame” I didn’t make it clear, that I meant that as support for what you had written! Because you were doing healthy self-examination. You used those very words at the end of your post, so I was TRYING to say, you are right. I obviously was not clear, I surely meant to be! I’m not about taking “sides”. I have agreed with things you said, Tilly said, Oxy said. You all have made excellent points that I agree with. You all are not in total disagreement.
ARGGH. As I said, the written word is frustrating.