By | July 12, 2009 129 Comments

Spotting the Covert Psychopath “In the Wild”

By Ox Drover

Something occurred recently that set my mind to thinking. My best friend who lives another state came to visit me for a couple of weeks. This friend has known me about 30 years, so has known both of my biological sons, including the psychopathic one, since they were kids. She has “been there” for me through all the trauma, the disappointments and the pain. She was there for me when my husband died in the aircraft crash and my adopted son was burned. She was there for me and for my oldest son when his wife tried to kill him. So she has seen many of the psychopaths I have dealt with “up close and personal” and she has seen the toxic enabling my mother has done and is doing with my P-son by sending him money, even after he tried to have me killed. There is no one on earth who can reasonably “validate” that I have been the victim of multiple psychopaths during my life than she can.

I remember when I went to the EMDR (rapid eye movement therapist). During my first intake interview, which lasted over two hours, as I detailed the large numbers of psychopaths who were conspiring to have me killed and had run me out of my home in fear of my life, the man very politely listened and showed interest in my tale of woe, which could almost be labeled “Pitiful Pauline’s Terrible Trials,” to use an old serial movie title. At the end of the session, he was careful to word his request, since I had told him I was a retired medical and mental health professional, that I “bring in someone to confirm” my stories, which to him, I don’t doubt, sounded like the ramblings of a “paranoid delusional schizophrenic.” When he made this request, in his very diplomatic manner, I actually threw back my head and laughed and said, “Yep, I do sound like a paranoid schizophrenic, I know, but I will be glad to bring in both witnesses and documentation to verify my stories.” Which, the next visit, I brought in court documents and rap sheets and mug shots, newspaper clippings, and my adopted son to verify that I wasn’t just “paranoid,” that there were indeed a conspiracy of psychopaths “out to get me.”

My own tall tales

Because I have lived a life that is pretty much out of the norm for a kid who grew up in the boondocks of rural Arkansas, and in some instances, done some things that are sort of along the lines of an “Indiana Jones” character, I learned pretty early in my young adult life that many people will disbelieve you if you “tell exciting stories” that are too far off the “norm” of most people’s lives. They view you more in the line of someone who, like my neighbor, “Crazy Bob,” tells tales of his years in the FBI, CIA, his Congressional Medal of Honor, his 5,000 parachute jumps, and him being a Navy Seal, all the while being too dumb to know that no one has ever made 5,000 parachute jumps.

Even if “Crazy Bob’s” stories are unbelievable to most people, some of my stories are as unbelievable, of flying cargos of live animals in and out of South America in a salvaged WWII B-25 bomber, or living in the bush for months at a time, or catching thousand-pound crocodiles at night from a 25 ft. canoe in the delta of the Nile, or the crazy camel driver at the pyramids who was paid to let me ride his camel. The only differences between my unbelievable stories and “Crazy Bob’s” are that I can prove mine with photographs, newspaper articles, passport stamps, pilot’s log books and other documents as well as living witnesses who were there with me.

A man who has been my friend for about 15 years told me, “When I first met you, I thought you were some kind of ”˜blow hard’ who made up these outlandish stories, it wasn’t until later, I realized that you were telling the truth.” This man is not the first, but I do hope, will be one of the last people who “hears my stories” and disbelieves because they sound “so outlandish, no one could have done all those things, or had so many psychopaths target them.”

Is every jerk a psychopath?

Even my friend of 30-plus years asked me as I was chattering on about some guy I thought to be a psychopath, “Are you starting to label everyone you know who is a jerk, a psychopath?”

This comment sort of surprised me, so I said, “No, I don’t think so, let me tell you why I think this man is a psychopath, though I didn’t realize it at the time I had a business interaction with him. First, he left his wife of 25 years while she was dying of cancer, leaving her destitute and alone, then he showed up at her funeral with his girlfriend sitting beside him, then he stole the inheritance of the daughter of a deceased friend after he had gotten himself appointed the executor, and then I added a few more incidents to his “psychopathic con-man resume.”

My friend then replied, “Yea, he does sound like a psychopath.”

Psychopaths I have known

Not too long ago I sat down and decided to make a “list of the psychopaths I have known, been related to, and/or who had hurt me/others significantly in interactions with them.” First off, of course, was my “sperm donor psychopath”, and I actually know of two men he killed. One of my maternal g-grandfathers was an abusive alcoholic. My “egg donor’s” brother, Uncle Monster, was a vicious, violent wife-beating, woman-hating man. Then there was Charles “Jackie” Walls III, who was a Boy Scout leader in our small town who was tried and convicted and sentenced to life without parole for the over 1,500 cases of child molestation that are known of. There was the covertly psychopathic teacher I had in nursing school whom I saw over and over persecute and target certain students, primarily males, for several years. Though she never targeted me, I finally became so afraid of her that in the middle of the program, I changed universities and drove 40 miles further for the last two years of my schooling just to get away from her.

I also listed covertly vicious physicians and nurses I had worked with for quite some time, directors of programs I had worked with, business partners of my husband who literally stole his business and bankrupted it, working together, and lying in depositions to the court. (One of them did, later, go to prison for conviction in a very similar scam in which they got caught, but they got away with the scam against my husband.)

All in all, when I finished the list of people that I had known closely enough to know their histories and to see some of their covertly malicious behavior targeting others or targeting businesses, I had, just off the top of my head, a list of 45 people that I knew who would have rated at least a 20, and more likely a 30, on the PCL-R. Many of these people were “respected” physicians, attorneys, Boy Scout leaders, psychological counselors, psychiatrists, surgeons, school teachers, police men, ministers, prison officials, prison guards, college presidents, businessmen, politicians, media stars, and others were “known” and convicted convicts and ex-convicts. Some few were “overt” psychopaths committing murder and other crimes of violence and not caring who knew they were “dangerous.” Others were “covert” psychopaths trying to protect their “public mask” of kind and caring people.

Of course, at the time I was working with or interacting with these people I had no idea that they were “toxic” and “dangerous,” and their public face, in “responsible” positions of college president, or minister of a church, was intact. Even when in some few cases I was actually warned that these people couldn’t be trusted, I didn’t listen to the warnings. When they began to target me and to covertly attack me (“stab me in the back” is the common vernacular) I felt the knife go in, but couldn’t for the life of me figure out why! Of course they were smiling and “playing nice” as they stabbed me, and if I “whined” about the pain I was feeling, then they “couldn’t understand” why I should be feeling and sensing that I was being attacked, of course they didn’t see any “knife in my back.”

Overt and covert

I had learned after the encounter with my sperm donor, who was an openly violent man and “proud” of his homicidal violence, to stay away from overtly dangerous people. I had taken great pains to stay away from the “low lifes” in the community, the heavy-drinking, fighting, strutting “bad boys.”

What I hadn’t learned until the last couple of years, though, is that there are probably, I estimate, six or eight “covert” psychopaths for every one or two “overtly” violent psychopaths. Though Scot Peterson and the BTK killer were actually very physically violent to their victims, they tried to present to the public this “good guy” mask to hide their psychopathic violence. These men were eventually convicted of their violent activities, just as Charles “Jackie” Walls III was convicted and his mask of “community leader and Boy Scout leader” was jerked off his face.

Not every “domestic abuser” goes to jail or makes the statistics. I don’t know what the real statistics are of overt and covert domestic violence, and I am sure that no one else knows, either, of the men/women who physically assault their spouses behind closed doors and nothing is ever known by anyone except the victim and the abuser. Many times, I think, not even the children in the family know the truth of what goes on behind “mommy’s and daddy’s bedroom door.” Unfortunately, too many of the victims take the shame of the beatings on to themselves, and “keep the family secrets” intact.

The statistical estimates of “how many psychopaths are there?” range from 1 percent to 4 percent of the general population, while about 20 percent of incarcerated felons are rated as psychopathic. While many victims may only recognize one psychopath in their lives, there are others of us who have repeatedly been targeted by them.

Crossing paths with psychopaths

Why us in particular? Possibly, we were born into a family highly populated with overt or covert psychopaths. Possibly we are adventurous and, as many psychopaths engage in high-risk or adventurous professions or past-times, we come into contact with a “pool” highly populated by psychopaths due to the adventurousness of our profession or recreational activities.

I spent time working for my sperm donor as a wildlife photographer in South and Central America, Europe, Africa and the American west, and the adventurousness of the profession attracts people who are highly involved in “risk taking” activities like self employment, film production, international travel, general aviation, and dangerous hunting activities. Therefore, it isn’t surprising to me, looking back now, that several of the men who were involved in my sperm donor’s enterprises were psychopaths.

Though my late husband was a man addicted to a “high-risk” and adventurous profession, general aviation, he was not a psychopath, but that profession brought him into contact with my sperm donor, and also many other psychopaths. Many were wealthy, famous and infamous men that, in retrospect, I consider high in narcissistic and/or psychopathic traits, Richard Nixon for one.

Identifying the psychopath

Learning to identify people with “covert” psychopathic traits in the “wild” is much more difficult than identifying “overtly dangerous” people with psychopathic traits, since most of the people who are “overtly dangerous” will swagger around “looking like a thug” and wanting to impress you with their potential for violence. It is sort of like the difference between the pit bull dog who bares his teeth and growls, versus the dog that quietly sneaks up behind you and sinks his teeth into your calf without any warning growl.

In either case, the best test of either the overt or the covert psychopath is their behavior, rather than what they say. If you observe someone do something (anything) to another person that you deem unjustified, ugly, nasty, hateful, revengeful, etc., then you should be very careful around that person and be watchful of them.

A friend of mine who was a dean of students at a prestigious college was literally sexually attacked by one of her fellow vice-presidents of that college; fortunately she was able to get away from him. Six months later, though, when he was appointed the new college president, his first act was to fire her. She hadn’t seen it coming. She was not only devastated, but was shocked and surprised. She shouldn’t have been. She had been warned that this man was a psychopath by his drunken sexual attack, but she kept her mouth shut at that time rather than “cause a stir.” Later, her silence at the time of the attack cost her her job.

The covert psychopaths count on people being “peace keepers” and keeping their mouths shut about observed bad behavior. They also count on “small” instances of bad behavior being over looked, even though these “minor” transgressions of “niceness” add up to a large mountain of bad behavior over the long haul.

Another thing that is against our being validated when we observe and “label” these instances of psychopathic behavior is the lack of validation we get from others who also know this person, but are not nearly as aware of what it “means” as we (former victims) are. They may pass off the behavior as “Oh, that’s just John” or “Well, he probably didn’t mean it that way” or “Oh, just get along and play nice.”

The covert psychopath may not be physically violent at all, but instead, may only engage in emotional and mental abuse of his/her victims by demeaning and degrading them with subtle put downs. The covert psychopath may also do financial or career damage to their targets, and a covert smear campaign against a co-worker or boss can destroy a career or a reputation.

No understandable motive

Because we, many times, fail to see a “motive” that we can understand for the behavior of the covert psychopath, it makes it difficult for us (and others) to believe that “s/he would do that,” because we cannot see what s/he would gain. Unfortunately, many times the “motive” of the psychopath is the same answer as the mountain climber gave for climbing a very difficult peak, “Just because it’s there and I wanted to prove I could do it.”

It might be fairly easy, you would think, to spot the “overt bad boys” by going to a “bad part of town” or “gang turf” and looking at the guys swaggering in and out of bars or selling drugs on the street and say “that guy acts like a psychopath,” and you might even be right in your assessment, but maybe not. But you can’t be sure you are not dealing with a psychopath at a debutante ball, or a civic meeting, or a political rally, a church group, or a business meeting either, because the fact that people there are cleaner, better educated and dress nicer doesn’t make them less apt to be a psychopath.

My sperm donor used to tell the press that he was “eccentric” and “the reason he was ”˜eccentric,’ instead of ”˜crazy’ was because he was rich!” Unfortunately, I think in many ways he was right, as people who are in a powerful position because of fame, money or other reasons, seem to be allowed more range in the behavior that is considered “acceptable” than those of us who are not so rich or powerful. Their power over other’s lives, finances, and emotions I think is what feeds their egos and their sense of entitlement to “control” others. Those of the human race who are not high in psychopathic and narcissistic traits don’t usually consider “control over others” to be a stand-alone motive to use, abuse and manipulate other’s lives for their own joy. That being said, it is difficult for us to see this as a viable motive in others who do have the psychopathic traits.

Survival skill

Detecting the covert psychopath in their “natural habit” becomes a necessary survival skill to minimize the damage that they can do to us. Whether their natural habitat is in the school room, the board room, the court room, the dining room, or the bedroom, we need to watch for the signs of deception and signs of lack of empathy, even the very subtle signs that these people have an ulterior motive in their interactions with us and/or others. We need to listen to our “guts” and our “intuition” and to validate this information ourselves, rather than doubt ourselves. Even if no one else on earth thinks that what “John is doing” is pathological, we need to have the self-awareness to watch out for ourselves if we spot a “red flag” of pathological behavior or attitude in someone.

To answer my best friend’s question again, I think I would add, “No, I am not labeling everyone who is a jerk a psychopath, but I am no longer excusing bad behavior on anyone’s part. I am keeping my eyes open for signs of people without moral compasses and I am distancing myself from them as far as I can.”

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A psychopathic solicitor targeted me and seduced me into a relationship and stole my inheritance and my house and he was never caught. He had detectives, police, lawyers, psychiatrists and judges on his pay list. The detectives told me that if I didn’t move interstate immediately, with my son, the solicitor would have me killed. He had me locked up in the looney bin and then prison, for paranoid personality disorder and had me charged with extortion and stalking (for trying to get my own money back) and he got away with it. He has done it to a lot of women and still does variations on the theme. He has kids all over the place to different women. Including 6 of his own to his psychopathic wife.
Seven years later I proved my innocence in the supreme court of appeal and all charges and records were dropped. However he did not get charged or struck off as a solicitor and I did not get ANY of my money or my home back. He is STILL doing it. He is extremely powerful on the Gold Coast and his “kingdom” has extended both north and south.
When mylast psychopathic ex- boyfriend (who was a dentist), tried to have me arrested again, (one week after I was cleared of all charges), the mental health team did not believe that I could have so many psychopaths in my life. They lassoed me and “brought me in to the acute care emergency” for mental health assessment.
This time i could prove my history and i had proof and evidence of my past abuse and also I am getting some help by the (few ) detectives in Oz that are not corrupt.
However the Psychopathic dentist is still trying to have me charged ( but can’t!) . So far he has got away with $200,000 fraud from health insurance. Not to mention his tax fraud for his whole life.
I believe the statistics are far higher than mentioned above and they will increase as the family unit further disintegrates and consumerism reaches its peak.
In the meantime, it is rare for me to meet people that are NOT cluster B’s.
I used to believe that this was because I was brought up by psychopaths and my family was full of them.
Now I believe that it has happened to me because it is my job to do something about it. That is, just the ones that have been in my life and are still active in their murderous, evil ways.
Everything has finally made sense to me. But I am still surrounded by psychopaths. This is the only place (LF) that I know that exists, where there are fewer Psychopaths than victims.
And nearly all of us here were once codependent rescuers.
I agree that the nursing industry is where the largest population of hidden female psychopaths are. I think it is because of all the helpless victims available, ready to be abused.
And the gangster/cops and robbers world is obviously the place where it is expected to “bignote” about the atrocities performed by male psychopaths, legally and illegaly.
It is in the court room that I believe, it is the most lethal to find the psychopath.
Nothing compares to being legally abused after you have already been financially, physically and emotionally abused . And no-one believes you.
It really is the end of the world… until you come to lovefraud.


Dear Oxy,
Thank you for another eye-opening post! It is getting so difficult to find people who don’t have a hidden agenda. I know I am probably overly suspicious & paranoid, but, until I met my s, I truly did not believe that such evil existed. As it has been said by many others here, our only “crime” is to have loved someone with all our being, only to be turned inside out with pain & loss. How many of us here have suffered devastating injury, try to recoup some of what we lost, only to have the rest of the world look at us, & say, “WTF”? We are judged & christened as the “boy who cries wolf”, before we even tell our story. So many times, I wanted to scream at my lawyer or the judge, “Do you think I could make this stuff up ,you stupid b*stards!?” I totally agree with Tilly. LF is the only place in the world that is warm & safe.


Dear Oxy,
Great post:) Like sstiles said, its hard not to feel like your being suspicious and paranoid…but now that my eyes are open, I am hopfully better equipped to spot the red flags, and move away. I think that trusting myself, trusting my gut, will be one of the most important things i’ll ever learn to do.x

Elizabeth Conley

Dear Oxdrover,

You’re story is one I can readily relate to. Like you, my life has been a tad on the exciting side. I rarely talk about myself, because my life story sounds like a confabulation. To my surprise, I’ve learned that many people resent those of us who’ve taken the road less traveled, even though they’re free as we are to go where the will. I’m not sure why these people are so bitter and spiteful, but I find the best way not to excite their aggression is to smile a lot, saying little or nothing.

Before I became aware of cluster B personality disorders, I went through life blithely treating all people as I would like to be treated. I did this because I had been trained to believe this was ethical, and I wanted to be good. Now I realize that the harm I was incurring when I tangled with cluster Bs was decreasing my effectiveness as a parent, wife, daughter and friend. Out of love for the people whom I owe the most to, I’m now very cautious with those to whom I owe little or nothing.

Psychopaths might be rare, but cluster B personality disorders may be as common as 1 in 10 people. Given free reign, they are wrecking balls, black holes, parasites or all 3. Treating them as we would like to be treated is excessively simplistic, and opens us and everyone we love up to great harm.

We can treat the anti-social disordered, histrionics, narcissists, and borderline personality disordered ethically, while still protecting ourselves and the ones we love.

All we have to do is be observant, and engage with them minimally if at all. I submit to you that telling other people what you observe in a cluster B simply makes you like the unfortunate little boy in the movie who claims, “I see dead people.” Even admitting we see them is a form of engagement that can harm our lives, because the vast majority of people can’t or won’t see the danger until it’s way, way too late, if ever.

You’re right:

“Detecting the covert psychopath in their “natural habit” becomes a necessary survival skill to minimize the damage that they can do to us. ”

Let’s take it one step further. Knowledge is power. Why let a cluster B know that we’ve detected their dark agenda? Don’t they generally target us with all their considerable fury once they realize they fool us? Let’s keep the power of perception for ourselves, and use it to keep ourselves and the ones we love safe.

We’re lucky. We’ve walked the road less traveled. Why shouldn’t we enjoy the benefits of our unique educations, and avoid the pitfalls of being labeled peculiar? The less angry, insecure or fearful people of the world know about us, the less harm we will incur. We can walk in peace among their discord, and sow blessings wherever we choose to go.

Elizabeth Conley

Sigh! I’m the queen of the stoopid typos 2day.

What I meant:
Don’t they generally target us with all their considerable fury once they realize they CAN’T fool us? Let’s keep the power of perception for ourselves, and use it to keep ourselves and the ones we love safe.

Ox Drover

Thank you guys for some of the wonderful insights, and especially to Tilly for bravely sharing her trials. Telling our stories validates us, and as we grow, we finially come to the conclusions that if we have no one else who believes us, we are still able to validate ourselvers, and external validation is not so important. At first, however, when we are still so raw and emotionally bleeding that external validation is important to us, that is the point, I think, that when we need it the most, is the least available.

Tilly’s experiences are “over the top” as far as the extent that her psychopaths went to discredit her, however, according to some writings by Dr. J. Reid Meloy a woman named Pamela lived with her psychopathic husband for 20 years without any idea that he was apsychopath, and when she started to “out him” and get on to him, he murdered her.

Another example of this is Laci Peterson and her husband Scot who murdered her.

I think it is only when we learn to spot the small and seemingly “unimportant” quirks in the covert psychopath that we are able to protect ourselves better by distancing ourselves from these predators. However, as Tilly can testify and others, they can be VERY dangerous when they are confronted.
Another example


‘We can walk in peace among their discord, and sow blessings wherever we choose to go.’
I love this Elizabeth..:)

I was just thinking, that its not just about spotting the red flags that ARE there waving loudly, but noticing what is missing. 🙂

I love this too:Let’s keep the power of perception for ourselves, and use it to keep ourselves and the ones we love safe. Food for thought. I have hurt myself far more than I should have by trying to ‘fight’ this stuff… reacting…

Ox Drover

Dear Blueskies,

So right you are!!!! You said a mouthful, girlie!!! “I have hurt myself far more than I should have by trying to “fight” this sutff…reacting.”

A while back I posted an article about “Why I am becoming an A.S. S.” (Assertive suvivor of Sociopaths” and I likened the intelligence of asses (donkeys) to the dumbness of horses who will HURT THEMSELVES FAR MORE than they are hurt by being attacked. A horse if he gets his foot tangled in a piece of wire will panic and tear his own leg off trying to get free, where an ass, will carefully see what is the matter, test whether he can get loose WITHOUT HURTING HIMSELF, or if necessary will stand there and call for help until a person comes and releases him from the trap he is in.

This is why I realized that I have been more like the stupid horse, who gets a pice of wire around his leg and tries desperately to get out of the trap and literally kills himself doing it, where as if he had simply NOT GONE INTO PANIC MODE could have actually come out uninjured.

Too many times the psychopaths get us in a “one down” situation before we even know we are in a trap, and then when we feel the noose tighten around us, we HANG OURSELVES WITH IT where as if we had just not gone into PANIC MODE we would not have been injuired.

The Ps USE that panic we feel against us, just like a guy with judo training uses your own motion and weight against you, so do the Ps and the other manipulators.

It is difficult to think when you are angry, afraid or stressed out, and they keeop that stress going, keep that anger stirred, and we become a worse enemy to ourselves than they ever were.

Fortunately KNOWLEDGE=POWER and we here are working together to support and teach each other, to share our experiences and the things that work for us, and the things that don’t work! My P-X-BF used to tell me “You’re such an ass!” And you know what, HE IS RIGHT, I AM AN A.S.S. (assertive survivor of a sociopath!) and I AM DAMN PROUD OF IT! Every morning when I hear the yeeehaw of Fat Ass and Hairy Ass echoing across the pasture, or walk out and see their long floppy ears or see them come running to beg their favorite treat, a slice of bread, I thank them for the lessons in life that they have taught me. And who would have thought a couple of jack asses would be such great life coaches! My best friend calls this place “THREE ASS ACRES!”


What a great post and Elizabeth your comments put words to how I feel with this gem:

Before I became aware of cluster B personality disorders, I went through life blithely treating all people as I would like to be treated. I did this because I had been trained to believe this was ethical, and I wanted to be good.

And then you g on with :

Now I realize that the harm I was incurring when I tangled with cluster Bs was decreasing my effectiveness as a parent, wife, daughter and friend. Out of love for the people whom I owe the most to, I’m now very cautious with those to whom I owe little or nothing.

I am just coming to this place myself. Your advice about not letting them know I see what they really are is very helpful to me.

I have as I work through everything and try to grow and heal from the ex-bf – a liar, an addict, a malignant narcissist – who got physically violent and is obsessed with me now – as I grow and learn I see that my ex-h – the father of my children is a covert N and my parents are N’s as well. My therapist had suggested they were N’s years ago but I did not understand it or what it meant. Only now are the scales falling from my eyes.

Oxy – Thank you for the analogy of the ASS versus the horse. I am learning that observation is the best tool I have for protecting myself at this time. Observe, observe, observe others behaviour before I allow them to get close to me. Observe my reactions to their behaviour and their words. Are they trying to charm, get close too quickly, is that person assessing my vulnerability???

I’m trying not to be afraid in general but this way of living is work – at least it is now – hopefully it will become ingrained and not require as much effort in the future.

Ox Drover

Dear Brecikgirl,

Yep, you are right, it is “work” to be aware all the time. It is more “stressful” than walking blithely through the world and thinking it is “alwlays safe.” Life is NOT a “cake walk” if we recognize the vulnerabilities we have to “attack” from various directions.

Of course, we must not live life in terror, but in CAUTION. We, I think must be AWARE of our environment and who (and what) is in it…listen to our gut instiincts and validate those instincts.

We are “socialized” to “play nice” with others and to “not make a scene” over someone else’s “minor” or snide remarks etc, but when those “snide remarks” become a pattern, we call them “put downs”—looking for the patterns in the lights and shadows allows us to SEE THE TIGER hiding in the grass, whose cover ALMOST blends in perfectly.

Psychopaths generally are like that tiger, and while their cover anD camo is almost perfect, seldom is it completely perfect, IF WE ARE OBSERVANT! But so many times, I have seen the patterns in the grass, and felt the presence of the tiger, almost felt its hot breath on my neck and then talked myself out of believing that there was REALLY a tiger in the bush….I am no longer going to talk myself out of my gut instincts any more, and I am also never going to let anyone else talk me out of it either.

Just like my GF sort of questioning me about my OBSERVATIONS that I thought the man was a P, I had valid reasons (based on his behavior) to assume he was toxic (whether or not he would have actually scored 25-30 on the PCL-R is immaterial) so I was being “judgmental” in some people’s views, but in mine, in my view, I was being cautious and observant. Once bitten, twice shy. Better to be SAFE THAN SORRY where it concerns caution.

super chic

Wonderful article! I have wondered if I’m going to end up labeling every jerk a S/P/N so this is a very timely post for me. I never understood what the red flags meant, I also treated people as I would like to be treated (as breckgirl said) so I’ll have to read this article several times so it sinks in. I want to learn my lessons well!


I think sometimes we are quick to label jerks and bitch’s as a narcospath or a physcocreep. But hey who wants to be around a jerk or a bitch? I was offering Overwhelmed some advice on another thread, she is a newbie here and just coming to grips with the reality of who/what she is dealing with. But then it dawned on me, I really cant feel that overwhelming pain. I remember it, I understand it, I relate to what she is going through but I don’t feel it anymore. Must be like women describe labor pains and child birth. Or as NewLily was saying about that missing limb concept, it takes our minds time to catch up with reality. So I guess I survived. Has taken me well over one year to catch up with reality. I had many toxic people in mylife, my mother the biggest baddest narc of all, the reality of her hit me about 6 years ago, long before I ever new what a narc was, I just new the mother I had adored and worshipped all my life wanted me dead and I had to flee in the dark of nite with help of my son’s. Like Ox I lived in fear of her for many years, until she went into a nursing home and can no longer walk and carry a gun. Yes I have tall tales to tell, and when I used to tell them people looked at me like I was demented, so I have learned to keep the truth to myself, because so much of it is unbelievable. I dont need sympathy, and no way anyone could ever relate to my life story. But not everyone is a spath. Beside’s I think spaths know when we are targets and when we aren’t…Ox about a year ago you told me to get some back bone and pull up my big boy britches (remember?) well I think I have a wedgey….


bears repeating:

“The covert psychopaths count on people being “peace keepers” and keeping their mouths shut about observed bad behavior. They also count on “small” instances of bad behavior being over looked, even though these “minor” transgressions of “niceness” add up to a large mountain of bad behavior over the long haul.”


Great article, as always, dear Oxy!
What i would like to mark is that who had misfortune to get involved with P/D/Ns, also has a moral obligation and duty to educate ppl how to spot the fart even if it is not noisy nor smelly (sorry for being rude) .
Especially parents (mostly mothers) should NOT hide the truth from children, in the name or for the sake of some ilusonal “mental health” of a child, keeping him believe his/her Daddy loves him.
What is hard is that many women are ashamed (as if it is their fault) of humiliation/abuse and tend to hide it in public, thinking they are less worthy, assuming OWN pieace of guilt .
Like u, Oxy, i was in touch with many pers. disorded ppl, starting from my both parents. I was taught, as u was, to pretend it never hapened and forget and forgive.
I am still not ready to post my whole story, just this time i would like to point on one:
I never hided anything from my child and never made things look diferent than they really are. When first time she went out with boyfriend, i taught her never to deny or decline to see red flags.
Relation seemed nice, boy seemed nice, everything was OK..the only problem was that she gos some starnge alergy (she was 15) and breath obstructions, until once she nearly died. Than she told me boy slaped her, and she broke relation and stoped to meet him.
She told me: When FIRST time he was rough and he pushed me so i fell down, i thought its my fault, i sliped and lost my equilibrium..he loves me so much, he would never do that to me intentionally. When few days after he slapped me, i remembered your words: ” If anyone ever treat u bad or hurt u, IT IS FIRST TIME and just a BEGINING, and it will never stop, as long as u dont go NC”
So, telling her whats going on, explaning, teaching her, warning her about red flags and terrible mistake of denial to see red flags, spared her of great pain.
We have to teach our close ones, especially young ones, how to spot P/S/Ns, for they are as dangerous as drugs – close ur eyes at just one or two red flags…and u are IN THE PLAY, u start to be addictive, as drug users can become adictive after even 1-2 “highs”.

Thank u Oxy
Blessings to all


I have been reading these posts for a while and have wanted to post my story but it has taken me a while to get up the nerve. Here goes.

I met my husband 25 years ago and fell for him immediately even though there was something that bothered me about him. He was charming etc, but not nice. We did not see each other for a few years then he got in touch and poured on the charm again and acted like he was doing me a favor by being with me.

Two years ago I had finally had enough I had been thinking about leaving for years but did know how to go about it. I had five children and was a stay at home mom. I love my children dearly and wanted to protect them. Everytime I got pregnant ( birth control did not work for me) he would tell me how he could not handle it and tell me to have an abortion. I refused so therefore was punished the first time he had gone back to Ireland “to go to school” right before I found out , he did not come back until my son was 6 months old. He never once sent a penny, instead it was my problem. I made the biggest mistake of my life when I allowed him back in my life so that my son could have a father. At least I got 4 other children out of it.

I had never heard of sociopaths really until my then attorney asked me if my husband was one and I said “NO” I then went home and looked it up online and got sick to my stomach. It described him perfectly and I wasn’t crazy. It also scared the crap out of me. Especially the fact as to how they can manipulate the court system. All of my fears have come true.
I knew I would have to fight for money as he had over the years put everything in his name. Always had a good reason. Needed a new account for business and would get my name on there soon, yeah right. He started on my oldest son a year or so before I filed ( I think he knew it was coming but did not think I had the nerve) He told him that he did not have to listen to me etc. Then when I filed for divorce ( I had to live in the same house for 6 months as he would not leave) He started with both boys telling them they had to help him get “her” because she was ruining the family. A family he never had any time for. Things escalated and I had to get a PFA against him and even against my oldest who was 15 and hitting me. The day I did that he went to school and took my two boys. I have been fighting ever since. They live only 3 miles away and he has worked his majic on them. I even have a Psychologist who is testifying in court that they are suffering from severe Parental Alientation syndrome. As usual my husband says I brought it on myself. My custody case is in a few weeks. It has been going on for two years , we go to court and it gets put off again again. That is just for the custody, the divorce is a whole different story as is child support. He is self employed and does business out of the country so he is hiding money. and says he is destitute.

I am at the end of my rope, there are days I do not think I have it in me to keep fighting but I have my three girls with me and need to protect them. He is actually fighting for full custody of all five. My sons seem to be lost to me. Especially my oldest ( who I was so close to) My younger son needs me so much but is so afraid of being rejected by his father. He saw what happened to his sister when she said she would not take sides.

I am off now as it is tough writing this


While it is unfortunate there are so many evil people out there, it’s also important to note there are also sick people, in varying degrees. My point isn’t to feel sorry for or enable those who are sick while rejecting Psychopaths, Sociopaths and Narcissists.

My point is that, in order to be healthy and, at a minimum, emotionally safe, it’s important to reduce exposure to and heavy relational investment in anyone who sets off unhealthy radar. This can include individuals with other, less violent but harmful non-the-less, personality disorders.

Even a Codependent can manipulate, using kindness and helpfulness, to control the object of their affection. This is also someone who, while not overtly dangerous or negatively affecting, is not ready to participate in a mutually respectful relationship.

Elizabeth Conley

“is not ready to participate in a mutually respectful relationship.”

This is a really good point. It doesn’t really matter why a person isn’t ready to enjoy an adult relationship with other adults. No matter what, we have a right to disengage, firmly but gently, and look for the kind of relationships that are mutually beneficial.

Ox Drover

Dear Momcooks,

I am so sorry that you went through all of this for so long and are still engaged in the battle. I am glad, however, that you landed here at LoveFraud, this is a healing place where you can tell your story and be validated—we have been through the fire as well with our own psychopaths and do understand some of what you have been through.

KNOWLEDGE=POWER so I suggest that you hang around and read as many of the old archived articles as you can, there are hundreds of them but they are usually short reads and have so much WISDOM and information in them. Feel free to post any time you wish, t6his is a very caring and supportive group of people here. Again, Welcome! God bless.

super chic

momcooks, that is tough to write about, I hope it helps a little bit to know we are thinking of you, I will say a prayer for you, I hope you will keep writing & reading, it helps. I pray for a good outcome for you, you sound like such a loveable mom!


Among those of the female gender there are the coy-flamboyant ones who come on quite sexually. Often they are incapable of getting keeping a job. they will have something of a criminal his/herstory. They will collect children in order to get monetary child support. They will have fetishes like a huge shoe collection or an ocean of clothes, all from the priciest stores, clothes which they never wear. They lie and sit at home all day talking on the phone incapable of doing almost everything one might think constitutes mutuality and participation.
2.Among men, there was one at my office who claimed the quietest cubbyhole but one near the boss. He had all the appropriate photos of his dogs, Yes big dogs Shepherds and Rottweilers, his children. He of course carried the Bible and even went to a church. He did all kinds of things to ‘look good’ but seldom ever knew anything about the job. He could not use well the computer nor write letters. He was a back stabber and stole others ideas. If it weren’t for his having a government job he probably would have failed to be able to work effectively for another company.
3.In the ‘hood, there are men who sort of lurk in the shadows. They will chime in when someone is getting pillaged by another. It becomes a cruel game for them to see that person get persecuted. They keep to themselves a lot and water the pastor’s lawn.
4.The Rev is like a sort of refuge for them and you had better not talk against the Rev. While the Rev himself is a criminal who has stolen things from me to put under his air conditoners. Rev bellers at his wife when they cut the grass and his wife does most of the work. I wonder if the Rev know what his flock (and there are two others in the hood like this one) is doing to others aka criminal enterprise. Oh the Rev appears so gentle and gets these sociopaths to do all the cooking on “Mothers Day and all these mothers get the meal prepared for them.
5. My own father too! What a mess. Solidly in allegiance to his quite abusive mother; therefore loves to pander to women but rejects men and even especially his own and only blood son. No I don’t think him being a Leo has much to do with his voracious appetite for eating people for sport! And to think he still survives being over eighty.


tonite on ABC on the PrimeCrime show … 10 p.m. Eastern
a MAJOR sociopath is being interviewed … as well as his victims.
he was tried twice for raping these women by drugging them and TWICE the jury acquitted him, even though he had many identities and passed himself off as: an astronaut, a CIA agent … you know the drill.
probably a must watch event.



Your timing is AMAZING!

Ox Drover

Dear Amanwhocares,

Thank you for your post, it sounds like you are around a “covey” of psychopaths, and oh, yes, they can present as so “holy”—-

I suggest that you read the book called “Snakes in Suits” by two oof the top researchers in psychopasths in the work place, Drs. Paul Babiak and Robert Hare. It describes in greater detail the man in the cubical with the Bible and how they operate in companies and groups. It will “curl your hair” and make it “stand on end” at hhow you see these people described and then look kback at people you have known in the work place that have acted just like that.

The more we know about these people and the further away from them that we can stay, the better. Glad you are here, thanks for sharing. god bless.

Ox Drover

Dear LIG,

Thanks for the heads up! I will watch.

I have been watching Prime/Crime, 20/20, 48 hours mystery, and Dateline lately and all of these shows detail a psychopathic crime (usually a murder or such) and of course these psychopaths are in the TOP bad guys with murder, sometimes serial murders, etc. I saw one last night about a married couple who killed a girl and burned her body. They were eventually convicted and sent to prison. The man was a complete psychopath, blaming the victim of course, and I’m not sure about his wife, whether she was a victim herself (as well as a participant in the murder) with Stockholm Syndrome, she did SEEM to be genuinely sorry as she was sent off to prison for her part in the murder, but he was defiant. the judge gave him the maximum sentence.

He copped out to 2nd degree murder, but then said “I didn’t do it”—DUH! Typical P crap. the wife copped a plea too, but though it would do her NO GOOD, she did express remorse in a way that was convincing to me….so I actually lean toward her being another victim of HIM. That’s the problem though, even though if the wife was a victim of him, she participated in the murder and destruction of the body, so she gets a jail sentence as well. She is accountable for her actions, even if she was bamboozled by him.

Not only do the Ps themselves do horrible acts, they con others into helping them with their horrible acts. Or as the Bible says “Evil companions corrupt good morals” and the psychopaths dupe other people into doing things that their own moral compass would otherwise not let them do.


another show to watch — unbelievably — is judge judy. i’d say that 70% of her cases have to do with some dirtbag guy sucking the life and money out of some unsuspecting girl/woman. judy almost always let’s ’em have it! often the ‘gifts’ — usually thousands of dollars, help buying a truck, a vacation — that the a-holes claim were given to them are reimbursed by court order! so satisfying.

Ox Drover

I think many of these day-time “judge” shows are actually with psychopathic creeps—I actually can’t stomach watching much of that kind of show, thoutgh. Makes me grind my teeth. the DNA tests of “you ARE the father these 4 kids” etc.

They turn the things into a media circus but never really educate people about anything on how to avoid these creeps.

There was another one I chanced on the other night as I was flipping channels that was “cheaters” and the detectives followed a cheater, then confronted him/her with the videos and proof of their cheating. they also did a bit of follow up on the victims and how they were doing afterwards. Again, no real “education” about all this crap and waht the REAL PROBLEM is.

“They may pass off the behavior as “Oh, that’s just John””

This illustrates a VERY important concept: People typically discount the standard behavior of a person, no matter how bad it is. Sociopaths COUNT on that; they know that if they’re jerks all the time, they paradoxically get away with it in a way they couldn’t do if they were only jerks sometimes, because people remember, and form their opinions based on, our ATYPICAL behaviors. They act as if everyone’s standard behavior is the same level of “goodness vs badness,” which works beautifully most of the time but is tragically wrong in the case of those who are markedly bad…. and, sadly, those of us who are markedly GOOD, which explains people’s bizarre lack of judging in your favor even when the sociopath has been awful and you’ve been a SAINT.

I don’t know how well I’ve explained this; I found it here

so read that if you want to get the entire description.

Ox Drover

Eternal student,

I give you an A+ for the way you described it, you did perfectly as far as I am concerned and I really think you are on to something….thanks for the link, too.

In “Snakes in suits” Babiak and hare explain some more of that kind of thing, and how SLICK the Ps are in the way they go about it, and how THICK most of us (“nice folks”) are in picking up on these subtle knives they stick into us.

Because, too, I think we have been trained to give people the benefit of the doubt, and even if we see they are not so nice, we still try to “get along” with them. Treat them like they aren’t toxic, after all “there’s good in everyone”….RIGHT?

Ox Drover

Dear LIG,

I watched the prime time crime show tonight and the guy (serial rapist) finally after 2 trials of getting off “not guilty” was convicted and won’t be eligible for parole until 2031!!!!

He was a real slimebag, but the judge sure “got it” that he was a predator a VIOLENT predator. TOWANDA!!!! TOWANDA!!!! And after at least 21 women he raped, he is in prison for at least another 22 years—hopefully forever!


I watched it to…What a scumbag that guy was. The thing is you could also see some of the fleeting moments in the program where you could see how he could use his “charm” to lure the women with his lies.

Ahhh but that arrogant smile. That, and when he actally spoke to the interviewer. Did you note how his face kind of distorted when he got caught up in his story and evaded the questions?

Ox Drover

Dear Wits,

I also noticed a SLIGHT SMILE when he would evade a question, and when he refused to say if he had told people he was a doctor, even refused to answer if he WAS a doctor…”on legal adivce” LOL

When the interviewer asked him who he WAS, he was stumped a minute and then said “I’m the guy that all these women wanted to hang out with” and then went on to say how charming, CARING and kind he was. YUK!!

When he was convicted, I think he was shocked…then at the sentencing, when he became “humble,” and said “I’m sorry” I thought I would throw up. He never admitted he “raped” any one, in fact, like of like Bill Clinton, he said “I want you to understand I did NOT rape anyone.”

The stories of the first 20 women (that are known about) who didn’t go to the police, and some who even kept on going out with him, and the one who got engaged to him when he threatened her—it is soooo much like so many people here on LF. We know we have been conned, abused, used, and we still don’t want to admit it to ourselves and just keep hoping to “fix” the relationship, or stay on in fear.

What blew me away though was that so many of them were still “looking for love” on the INTERNET….where most of them met this jerk in teh first place—!!!!! DUH!!!! Hel–lllll–000000!!!!

When the interviewer asked him if his profile was a lie, he immediately said, “well theirs was too”—so p-ish. whew!

Well, if being date raped doesn’t get these ladies (smart ones too!!!) to quit internet dating I’m not sure waht can, maybe they need to hand out LF cards with the URL on it at the end of rape tirals!


I met some really nice people on the Internet and I met both of my Ps in person through “common interests”. In defense of internet dating, I have to say that many of my friends are happily married to the “geeks” they met on dating sites and some have multiple kids…

The world is changing. Dating at a work place is not allowed in many places. Bars and Clubs are not for everyone…


BTW, Oxy, Thank you for your post. My friends and I have a game now, it’s called “Can you spot a psychopath?” Those that are closer to me have heard enough about them that they are fully prepared to identify them and it makes for an awesome educational pastime. Thanks for bringing it home 🙂


Eternal student, thats a thought provoking post. I can remember countless occasions over my life time where people have consistantly behaved in an unacceptable way and I have heard stuff like ‘that’s just …..’ or ‘she never really HURT anyone’ or ‘boys will be boys’.I realise now that this atttitude in people is the P/S ‘bread and butter’. I dont know wether it is a consious thing with them but it is how they are able to operate in our society. On the other hand if someone who is consistently nice, suddenly makes a bad move, it is never forgotton:(

There was a couple I knew, and the male was a complete A/H, she was a mouse, he was physically abusive, put her in hospital 3 times, a consistant bully amongst his set of friends, drug dealer, partly responsible for the death of a student through an OD, dabbled in pimping, weed farming for years and years, there was even an accusation of drugging and rape at a party; he once basically tried to put the fear of god in his GF by driving at 100 miles an hour up the motorway, punching her in the face and saying he was going to kill them both. in her struggle to escape she kicked forward and the windscreen cracked… what is the recollection of this terrible event by the circle of ‘friends’… that this man is violent and dangerous? No. that the crazy girl smashed up his precious car.

Are we giving people the benefit of the doubt? Or are we in denial, are we too scared to speak up for fear of upsetting the status quo?


Eternal student : Great link. Fascinating stuff. Bookmarked!x

Oxy and witsend, can I access this show on the interweb?:)x


Oxy and Pinow. Re: Internet dating…
I met a really wonderful feller on an internet dating site, we are still friends. I also spoke to someone at my recent foray into the world of nice friends, who had set up an internet date and was excited about it, he was a thoroghly nice feller too, a kind good mannered professional the type of man most of us WOULD like to meet.I have also heard tales of people meeting on these places and having wonderful lives together… BUT it is just not something I would EVER do again. I cant remember the name of the thread on here about internet predators, but for me the risk of coming up against a creep on line and being ‘blindsided’ is far greater for me than a face to face meeting. It is so much easier to create a false impression of yourself when you are hiding behind a computor screen. My S/P is an internet predator too, he gives the impression of a hard working beaten down single father (he has his kids at the weekend and barely copes with that) which is a real hook for many women… for ME it is just too risky. I need to look into the eyes and get a feel for a person BEFORE I begin with the intamacies that internet encounters somehow seem to facilitate way too easily. Lesson Learnt!


“When you’re talking to someone face-to-face, most of the true meaning of the conversation comes from nonverbal cues—tone of voice, facial expressions and body language. How much do you depend on these nonverbal cues? Anthropologist Ray Birdwhistell estimated that 65% of human communication is nonverbal; linguist Deborah Tannen estimates that up to 90% of meaning comes from nonverbal cues.

That means when you communicate via e-mail or the Internet, 65% to 90% of the meaning is lost.

You can’t see what the other person looks like, hear the tone of voice, watch gestures and posture. So what do you do? Most people tend to fill in the gaps by assuming the message means what they want it to mean.

At the very least, the lack of nonverbal cues in e-mail and Internet communication can lead to misunderstandings. When one person’s intention is to manipulate another, this critical lack of information can lead to disaster.”

This is what Donna says on the main part of the web site.

this information / advice is to be seriously taken on board and kept in mind as far as I am concerned.:)x It also is relevant to problems between well intentioned people when communicating electronically, meaning can be lost misconstrued.

I guess MEETING on a date site is okay, but if the relationship continues it shouldnt stay in cyberspace for too long.

(if I am reading from the Ministry of the Bleedin’ Obvious manual, someone feel free to skillet me:)xx


I am not sure but I bet you can see it on the internet. Most of these shows are available to see that way now days. I believe it was on ABC. The scumbag claimed to be a doctor, and an astronot, and I think he even claimed to be a CIA agent to the one girl he was engaged to. As you can guess he wasn’t any of these things. In fact he was a nursing school DROP OUT!
Try and catch it if you can, and if you do hang in there till the end as the interview with him at the end is a MUST see. His arrogance is unbelievable!!!


Thanks Witsend I shall check it out:)x

Ox Drover

Dear Blueskies,

I dated my P XBF for 4 months before I started to see his mask fall…and I had KNOWN HIM somewhat for about 10 years before I istarted dating him. He was part of my living history group and “univerally held” as a “nice guy”—but as the relationship went on, I found out from others who knew him better than I did, that he had been married for 32 years and cheated on her the whole time, that he had a “harem” of women that he had had intermittent affairs with for as long as 9 years during his marriage. He was so angry at one of these women who had finally stopped her affair with him, and gotten into another relationship and when his wife caught him and threw him out, this woman refused to toss her BF and take back the P….so he burned her house!!!! WHILE HE WAS DATING ME!!!!

It took me another 4 months to realize what was happening and that I had to kick him to the curb! Kicking him to the curb and admitting I had been conned BROKE MY HEART!

Knowing someone, their family, and other friends does help with getting information and seeing the truth of what a person is. Internet and long distance relationships don’t give you as much information and you tend to take them at what they SAY without being able to SEE and KNOW what they DO.

SEEING RED FLAGS is only possible if you have enough contact with this person and OTHERS in their lives, family, long time friends and associates….even then, you may not see them all.


You are right:) My ex S/P was the best friend of MY good old friend for 18 years. I think you only really know when you KNOW… sadly. I really have a problem with trying to say that my eyes are more open now without sounding cocky here!:)xx These things happen to the strongest of people (which I am not!)…but the internet gives the arse-holes a head start:) So I am not doing that:)x



I share your reluctance! The internet is an absolute gift to the half-humans. They seem to find me without my making it even easier for them! Having said this, now I am learning more about ‘red flags’ etc, I am definitely inviting less ‘crap’ into my life – I have stopped tolerating peoples’ rudeness in shops etc – I actually said to someone the other day ‘YOU’RE VERY RUDE!’ and flounced off, instead of my usual scuttling away when someone has behaved badly towards me and ‘seething’ for days! Pathetic isn’t it? That I had been SO introverted that I’d lost sight of the fact that I have a ‘choice’ to point out my displeasure

Thanks all.

Ox Drover

I share your outrage at rude clerks, etc. A couple of years ago before I iwas NC with my egg donor, she and I were in line at a fast food place (very small one) and I noticed the food handler go into the bathroom and quickly exit the bathroom, WIPING HER WET HANDS AS SHE EMERGED on the back of her blue jeans, then reaching bare handed to pick up a hamburger patty.

My egg donor and I were about 1 person behind in line, and I stated very clearly, “Let’s get out of here! Did you see that woman wipe her hands on her arse and then pick up that man’s hamburger patty!?” My egg donor immediately went into “embarassed mode” at my public outburst, and went “Shhhhhhh” toward me for “making a scene” in public.

As I “exited stage right” all of the people in the line behind us followed as if on cue. When we got into the car, my egg donor gave me a long lecture about making a scene in public, but I felt then and feel now, that my behavior was justified.

That was one of my RARE steps outside of my egg donor’s “what would the neighbors think?” line of thinking. At that particular moment, i was more in my “infection control” mode of my nurse-personna. (Which fortunately was sometimes out of my egg donor’s control)


“Or as the Bible says “Evil companions corrupt good morals” and the psychopaths dupe other people into doing things that their own moral compass would otherwise not let them do.”

My P added in his cross-motion in response to his sex addiction, which I did not know about until the AFTER the AFFAIR that I used “toys” in the bedroom…I only did this because of the above and I always felt so awful, convicted, like I was being driven away from God.

This was SO infuriating for me especially because…what did our bedroom practices have to do with what he hid from me for years?!!!! anyway.
I did not know he watched porn at all, and he stated: “frequently” or masturbated at all and he stated 3 times daily!!!!!

Ox Drover

Dear Banana,

It sounds to me as if he is trying to smear you (and embarass you) to make his own perversions and sex addictions look like your fault, or that you participated in “perverted” things.

What a couple does by consent in their bedroom is to me none of anyone else’s busienss as long as it is 100% BY CONSENT on both parties. For him to even bring up what he and YOU did, is a blatant attempt to me to embarass and make you look perverted, when HE is the perverted party.

As far as him mastrabating, again, how often he does this, as long as it is not in a public place is in my opinion NO ONE else’s business, though in several books I have read written by “experts” (with PhDs) a person who does it this many times per day and/or in “inappropriate places” might have some sex addiction problems…but again, if he is not harming anyone or doing it in public, who or what does it hurt?

Sex once a month is enough for some people and daily sex not enough for others—different people have different desires and needs—to me, however, to be in a “committed” relationship (and/or marriage) and to “cheat” and lie and have affairs (and therefore expose your partner to possible diseases unknown to them) is the CRIME here. The perversion here.

Elizabeth Conley

Yesterday a neighbor asked me if my daughter would babysit her boyfriend’s 7 YO on a regular basis. I felt an immediate surge of unease. I hemmed and hawed. I didn’t know why the answer was no, but I knew it wasn’t happening on my watch.

Having had over 24 hours to analyze my emotions, I now know why I felt as I did. In a nutshell, I think there’s subtle evidence to suggest the woman’s boyfriend is keeping his daughter from her mother out of capricious cruelty, and using my neighbor as a support base for his sociopathic behavior.

The evidence is subtle, and I could be wrong:

1. My neighbor has a history of bad taste in men.
2. The relationship started recently and got serious very quick. He’s always over there. For all I now he’s moved in.
3. Now his daughter’s child care is his girlfriend’s (my neighbor’s) problem.
4. My neighbor’s teenage daughter feels uncomfortable in her own home. (But she thinks Mom’s boyfriend is a nice guy.)
5. He claims his wife/daughter’s mother is a drug addict and unfit mother.
6. If other people don’t solve his child care problems, the child will have to be in the custody of her “awful” mother.

This situation is too similar to what I’ve seen from sociopathic parents in the past. I don’t think this guy is on the level.

Of course, I’m not going to tell my neighbor what I think. She’d be furious.

Ox Drover

Dear EC,

It sounds to me that your “intuitiion” is seeing things pretty clearly, so I would LISTEN to myself.

Seeing this kind of thing BEFORE it becomes a big problem is the thing that we all need to do….because it isn’t just seeing the P-tendencies in “lovers” or “business” partners but in the everyday neighborhod relationships like this.



Now thats what I love to hear!! This makes my day! You just saved your daughter from being “the meat in the sandwich” of a potentially very ugly situation coming up! Guaranteed! (((HUGS))))



I actually heard a somewhat similar line from my ex – that he needed to help “a friend” find a babysitter for her daughter. When I asked why he felt he needed to travel out of town to do so, he wailed about the child being left alone, implying of course that I was heartless not to care about a helpless child.

Your instincts are on target. This is just a variation on the pity play. Poor child.


Hello to all my dear LF’s. I was reading and reading, so pls excuse me if i missed an article pointing at this site. Just liked it and wanted to share 🙂

especially this one:

In all my sorrow and pain, i was laughing while reading it, and i am sure if u haven’t read it, u’ll feel the same as i did.

Bless u all

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