By Ox Drover
Something occurred recently that set my mind to thinking. My best friend who lives another state came to visit me for a couple of weeks. This friend has known me about 30 years, so has known both of my biological sons, including the psychopathic one, since they were kids. She has “been there” for me through all the trauma, the disappointments and the pain. She was there for me when my husband died in the aircraft crash and my adopted son was burned. She was there for me and for my oldest son when his wife tried to kill him. So she has seen many of the psychopaths I have dealt with “up close and personal” and she has seen the toxic enabling my mother has done and is doing with my P-son by sending him money, even after he tried to have me killed. There is no one on earth who can reasonably “validate” that I have been the victim of multiple psychopaths during my life than she can.
I remember when I went to the EMDR (rapid eye movement therapist). During my first intake interview, which lasted over two hours, as I detailed the large numbers of psychopaths who were conspiring to have me killed and had run me out of my home in fear of my life, the man very politely listened and showed interest in my tale of woe, which could almost be labeled “Pitiful Pauline’s Terrible Trials,” to use an old serial movie title. At the end of the session, he was careful to word his request, since I had told him I was a retired medical and mental health professional, that I “bring in someone to confirm” my stories, which to him, I don’t doubt, sounded like the ramblings of a “paranoid delusional schizophrenic.” When he made this request, in his very diplomatic manner, I actually threw back my head and laughed and said, “Yep, I do sound like a paranoid schizophrenic, I know, but I will be glad to bring in both witnesses and documentation to verify my stories.” Which, the next visit, I brought in court documents and rap sheets and mug shots, newspaper clippings, and my adopted son to verify that I wasn’t just “paranoid,” that there were indeed a conspiracy of psychopaths “out to get me.”
My own tall tales
Because I have lived a life that is pretty much out of the norm for a kid who grew up in the boondocks of rural Arkansas, and in some instances, done some things that are sort of along the lines of an “Indiana Jones” character, I learned pretty early in my young adult life that many people will disbelieve you if you “tell exciting stories” that are too far off the “norm” of most people’s lives. They view you more in the line of someone who, like my neighbor, “Crazy Bob,” tells tales of his years in the FBI, CIA, his Congressional Medal of Honor, his 5,000 parachute jumps, and him being a Navy Seal, all the while being too dumb to know that no one has ever made 5,000 parachute jumps.
Even if “Crazy Bob’s” stories are unbelievable to most people, some of my stories are as unbelievable, of flying cargos of live animals in and out of South America in a salvaged WWII B-25 bomber, or living in the bush for months at a time, or catching thousand-pound crocodiles at night from a 25 ft. canoe in the delta of the Nile, or the crazy camel driver at the pyramids who was paid to let me ride his camel. The only differences between my unbelievable stories and “Crazy Bob’s” are that I can prove mine with photographs, newspaper articles, passport stamps, pilot’s log books and other documents as well as living witnesses who were there with me.
A man who has been my friend for about 15 years told me, “When I first met you, I thought you were some kind of ”˜blow hard’ who made up these outlandish stories, it wasn’t until later, I realized that you were telling the truth.” This man is not the first, but I do hope, will be one of the last people who “hears my stories” and disbelieves because they sound “so outlandish, no one could have done all those things, or had so many psychopaths target them.”
Is every jerk a psychopath?
Even my friend of 30-plus years asked me as I was chattering on about some guy I thought to be a psychopath, “Are you starting to label everyone you know who is a jerk, a psychopath?”
This comment sort of surprised me, so I said, “No, I don’t think so, let me tell you why I think this man is a psychopath, though I didn’t realize it at the time I had a business interaction with him. First, he left his wife of 25 years while she was dying of cancer, leaving her destitute and alone, then he showed up at her funeral with his girlfriend sitting beside him, then he stole the inheritance of the daughter of a deceased friend after he had gotten himself appointed the executor, and then I added a few more incidents to his “psychopathic con-man resume.”
My friend then replied, “Yea, he does sound like a psychopath.”
Psychopaths I have known
Not too long ago I sat down and decided to make a “list of the psychopaths I have known, been related to, and/or who had hurt me/others significantly in interactions with them.” First off, of course, was my “sperm donor psychopath”, and I actually know of two men he killed. One of my maternal g-grandfathers was an abusive alcoholic. My “egg donor’s” brother, Uncle Monster, was a vicious, violent wife-beating, woman-hating man. Then there was Charles “Jackie” Walls III, who was a Boy Scout leader in our small town who was tried and convicted and sentenced to life without parole for the over 1,500 cases of child molestation that are known of. There was the covertly psychopathic teacher I had in nursing school whom I saw over and over persecute and target certain students, primarily males, for several years. Though she never targeted me, I finally became so afraid of her that in the middle of the program, I changed universities and drove 40 miles further for the last two years of my schooling just to get away from her.
I also listed covertly vicious physicians and nurses I had worked with for quite some time, directors of programs I had worked with, business partners of my husband who literally stole his business and bankrupted it, working together, and lying in depositions to the court. (One of them did, later, go to prison for conviction in a very similar scam in which they got caught, but they got away with the scam against my husband.)
All in all, when I finished the list of people that I had known closely enough to know their histories and to see some of their covertly malicious behavior targeting others or targeting businesses, I had, just off the top of my head, a list of 45 people that I knew who would have rated at least a 20, and more likely a 30, on the PCL-R. Many of these people were “respected” physicians, attorneys, Boy Scout leaders, psychological counselors, psychiatrists, surgeons, school teachers, police men, ministers, prison officials, prison guards, college presidents, businessmen, politicians, media stars, and others were “known” and convicted convicts and ex-convicts. Some few were “overt” psychopaths committing murder and other crimes of violence and not caring who knew they were “dangerous.” Others were “covert” psychopaths trying to protect their “public mask” of kind and caring people.
Of course, at the time I was working with or interacting with these people I had no idea that they were “toxic” and “dangerous,” and their public face, in “responsible” positions of college president, or minister of a church, was intact. Even when in some few cases I was actually warned that these people couldn’t be trusted, I didn’t listen to the warnings. When they began to target me and to covertly attack me (“stab me in the back” is the common vernacular) I felt the knife go in, but couldn’t for the life of me figure out why! Of course they were smiling and “playing nice” as they stabbed me, and if I “whined” about the pain I was feeling, then they “couldn’t understand” why I should be feeling and sensing that I was being attacked, of course they didn’t see any “knife in my back.”
Overt and covert
I had learned after the encounter with my sperm donor, who was an openly violent man and “proud” of his homicidal violence, to stay away from overtly dangerous people. I had taken great pains to stay away from the “low lifes” in the community, the heavy-drinking, fighting, strutting “bad boys.”
What I hadn’t learned until the last couple of years, though, is that there are probably, I estimate, six or eight “covert” psychopaths for every one or two “overtly” violent psychopaths. Though Scot Peterson and the BTK killer were actually very physically violent to their victims, they tried to present to the public this “good guy” mask to hide their psychopathic violence. These men were eventually convicted of their violent activities, just as Charles “Jackie” Walls III was convicted and his mask of “community leader and Boy Scout leader” was jerked off his face.
Not every “domestic abuser” goes to jail or makes the statistics. I don’t know what the real statistics are of overt and covert domestic violence, and I am sure that no one else knows, either, of the men/women who physically assault their spouses behind closed doors and nothing is ever known by anyone except the victim and the abuser. Many times, I think, not even the children in the family know the truth of what goes on behind “mommy’s and daddy’s bedroom door.” Unfortunately, too many of the victims take the shame of the beatings on to themselves, and “keep the family secrets” intact.
The statistical estimates of “how many psychopaths are there?” range from 1 percent to 4 percent of the general population, while about 20 percent of incarcerated felons are rated as psychopathic. While many victims may only recognize one psychopath in their lives, there are others of us who have repeatedly been targeted by them.
Crossing paths with psychopaths
Why us in particular? Possibly, we were born into a family highly populated with overt or covert psychopaths. Possibly we are adventurous and, as many psychopaths engage in high-risk or adventurous professions or past-times, we come into contact with a “pool” highly populated by psychopaths due to the adventurousness of our profession or recreational activities.
I spent time working for my sperm donor as a wildlife photographer in South and Central America, Europe, Africa and the American west, and the adventurousness of the profession attracts people who are highly involved in “risk taking” activities like self employment, film production, international travel, general aviation, and dangerous hunting activities. Therefore, it isn’t surprising to me, looking back now, that several of the men who were involved in my sperm donor’s enterprises were psychopaths.
Though my late husband was a man addicted to a “high-risk” and adventurous profession, general aviation, he was not a psychopath, but that profession brought him into contact with my sperm donor, and also many other psychopaths. Many were wealthy, famous and infamous men that, in retrospect, I consider high in narcissistic and/or psychopathic traits, Richard Nixon for one.
Identifying the psychopath
Learning to identify people with “covert” psychopathic traits in the “wild” is much more difficult than identifying “overtly dangerous” people with psychopathic traits, since most of the people who are “overtly dangerous” will swagger around “looking like a thug” and wanting to impress you with their potential for violence. It is sort of like the difference between the pit bull dog who bares his teeth and growls, versus the dog that quietly sneaks up behind you and sinks his teeth into your calf without any warning growl.
In either case, the best test of either the overt or the covert psychopath is their behavior, rather than what they say. If you observe someone do something (anything) to another person that you deem unjustified, ugly, nasty, hateful, revengeful, etc., then you should be very careful around that person and be watchful of them.
A friend of mine who was a dean of students at a prestigious college was literally sexually attacked by one of her fellow vice-presidents of that college; fortunately she was able to get away from him. Six months later, though, when he was appointed the new college president, his first act was to fire her. She hadn’t seen it coming. She was not only devastated, but was shocked and surprised. She shouldn’t have been. She had been warned that this man was a psychopath by his drunken sexual attack, but she kept her mouth shut at that time rather than “cause a stir.” Later, her silence at the time of the attack cost her her job.
The covert psychopaths count on people being “peace keepers” and keeping their mouths shut about observed bad behavior. They also count on “small” instances of bad behavior being over looked, even though these “minor” transgressions of “niceness” add up to a large mountain of bad behavior over the long haul.
Another thing that is against our being validated when we observe and “label” these instances of psychopathic behavior is the lack of validation we get from others who also know this person, but are not nearly as aware of what it “means” as we (former victims) are. They may pass off the behavior as “Oh, that’s just John” or “Well, he probably didn’t mean it that way” or “Oh, just get along and play nice.”
The covert psychopath may not be physically violent at all, but instead, may only engage in emotional and mental abuse of his/her victims by demeaning and degrading them with subtle put downs. The covert psychopath may also do financial or career damage to their targets, and a covert smear campaign against a co-worker or boss can destroy a career or a reputation.
No understandable motive
Because we, many times, fail to see a “motive” that we can understand for the behavior of the covert psychopath, it makes it difficult for us (and others) to believe that “s/he would do that,” because we cannot see what s/he would gain. Unfortunately, many times the “motive” of the psychopath is the same answer as the mountain climber gave for climbing a very difficult peak, “Just because it’s there and I wanted to prove I could do it.”
It might be fairly easy, you would think, to spot the “overt bad boys” by going to a “bad part of town” or “gang turf” and looking at the guys swaggering in and out of bars or selling drugs on the street and say “that guy acts like a psychopath,” and you might even be right in your assessment, but maybe not. But you can’t be sure you are not dealing with a psychopath at a debutante ball, or a civic meeting, or a political rally, a church group, or a business meeting either, because the fact that people there are cleaner, better educated and dress nicer doesn’t make them less apt to be a psychopath.
My sperm donor used to tell the press that he was “eccentric” and “the reason he was ”˜eccentric,’ instead of ”˜crazy’ was because he was rich!” Unfortunately, I think in many ways he was right, as people who are in a powerful position because of fame, money or other reasons, seem to be allowed more range in the behavior that is considered “acceptable” than those of us who are not so rich or powerful. Their power over other’s lives, finances, and emotions I think is what feeds their egos and their sense of entitlement to “control” others. Those of the human race who are not high in psychopathic and narcissistic traits don’t usually consider “control over others” to be a stand-alone motive to use, abuse and manipulate other’s lives for their own joy. That being said, it is difficult for us to see this as a viable motive in others who do have the psychopathic traits.
Survival skill
Detecting the covert psychopath in their “natural habit” becomes a necessary survival skill to minimize the damage that they can do to us. Whether their natural habitat is in the school room, the board room, the court room, the dining room, or the bedroom, we need to watch for the signs of deception and signs of lack of empathy, even the very subtle signs that these people have an ulterior motive in their interactions with us and/or others. We need to listen to our “guts” and our “intuition” and to validate this information ourselves, rather than doubt ourselves. Even if no one else on earth thinks that what “John is doing” is pathological, we need to have the self-awareness to watch out for ourselves if we spot a “red flag” of pathological behavior or attitude in someone.
To answer my best friend’s question again, I think I would add, “No, I am not labeling everyone who is a jerk a psychopath, but I am no longer excusing bad behavior on anyone’s part. I am keeping my eyes open for signs of people without moral compasses and I am distancing myself from them as far as I can.”
Thanks, Kim! I am not twenty any more [as my PX hub always reminded me….well…guess what? He wasn’t either, but it didn’t stop him from chasing and buying 19 year olds!], but it was a lot of fun and I enjoyed myself. This is the time of the woman…we can have younger men, wear younger clothing longer, look younger easier and base our self worth on us and our values. I do like that and I intend to embrace it as much as I dare to….:):):)
Now to settle in and accept this birthday number. AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!! 😉
Happy birthday, TB!!!! You are my new hero for wearing that dress. I only wish we could see a picture. I can only imagine how fabulous you looked. You go, girl!
Stargazer: thanks so much!!!!! I stepped out a new me….and I was shaky….but hey, we gotta do the ‘new us!” LOLOLOLOL!
I have a friend whose 82 year old mother is soooooo cool. Actually, she is cooler than my friend….ahahahaha! This lady dresses sharp, works full time in her gift shop, drives for miles on the freeway at seventy [sometimes faster!]MPH to various shopping centers in high traffic areas, shops for younger clothes, goes to dances, plays, movies etc. And…wears her hair young, her fingernails long and red and embraces womanhood with full fury. She is one fun lady. She cuts jokes and says some of her boyfriends were hunks. And….get this…her 100 year old mom likes Elvis…. Bwaaahahahahaha! I asked my friend what the grandmom wanted for Christmas…and they told me this info. I went to Graceland and bought her Elvis socks, etc….and she wears them. Is this not just a hoot???? Ahahahahaha! And….get this…the gran got married again [she was a a widow] at 92!!!!!! He was 3 years older and still worked every day on his farm. I could not help it…I asked my friend what they did on the ‘honeymoon’ and we all laughed our butts off….but then we looked at each other and said: “Could it be?” Ahahahahaha!!!!!!!!
[he passed away last year…heart attack…so we will never know. ;p
Twice: aka Tina……
Whooooaaaa!
HAAAAPPPPPPPYYYYYYYYYYY BIIIIRRRRRTTTTHHHHDDDAAAAYYYY!!!!!!!!!
It’s all in the attitude girl…….YOU GO GIRL!!!!
As Dianna Ross sang…..Aint no mountain high enough…….
Happy Birthday…..you deserve the best!
XXOO
eb
EB: thanks, girl! Rock on! 😉 High five! *GIRL POWER!
This is my first post, but I have been reading your site for a few months after my own unpleasant brush with a garden variety psychopath (no physical violence or fraud involved). In truth I wasn’t even in a relationship with this creature, but he played best friends with me for a few months until the novelty wore off and he moved on to greener pastures. Yet, given the unsurprising intensity of the psychopatic bond, I was seized by an almost manic need to search for explanations for his inexplicable behaviour. Why would a young, smart, good looking, charming guy engage in such a never ending array of destructive and self-destructive activities? What were all his endless (and mostly pointless) lies, callousness, pathological envy, aggressive behaviours, and ill-disguised desire to hurt all about? It just didn’t make sense, until google threw back ASPD (which I know now not to be entirely accurate but it was a good starting point nevertheless) to one of my queries and the floodgates opened: I started reading books, academic articles, the popular press, your wonderful site, and anything psycho-related I could get my hands on. I just had to learn as much as I could about the subject to minimise my risk of getting in a similar situation again. Even if I can’t say that my encounter with this particular psychopath broke my heart, it nonetheless made for an extremely unpleasant experience that shot my anxiety levels through the roof as he happened to be my next door neighbour and move in my same social circle. Hard to go No Contact there. And of course, after I finished mourning the loss of this phantom friendship, I realised that he had shattered my confidence in my own judgement and, for a while, people in general. Sadness gave way to hatred.
HOWEVER. After spending a few weeks labelling every person that rubbed me the wrong way a psychopath, I realised that mine was just a knee jerk reaction to the pain and humiliation caused by my personal run-in with one of these creatures. Coming to terms with somebody else’s personality disorder was giving ME a personality disorder: paranoia. Of course there have always been unsavoury people in my life. My father is a narcissist and even though 28 years of brick wall (non)communication should have clued me in, I only put my finger on the problem when I discovered the existence of the DSM. I am well educated with a postgraduate degree and all, but through a combination of sheer luck and abundant naivety I had never before felt the need to instruct myself about topics relatively alien to me like mental illness and human evil.
Anyway, your blog and other fine reads made me realise that my best friend’s ex-boyfriend who: 1. beat her up (‘but he was sooooo sorry after he realised he gave me a black eye!’) 2. stole from her (‘it was only a few hundred euros” I am sure he had an emergency’) 3. abandoned his two young sons from a previous relationship (‘their mother is a witch and wouldn’t let him see them!’) before 4. finally abandoning her for a richer woman willing to marry him straight away (he needed a green card) – is very likely a psychopath. And oh, when my friend dared be upset at his impromptu change of plans ”“ actually, change of bride to be – he flew into a rage that escalated into a vicious emotional assault as she started crying. Her tears IRRITATED him. So yeah, definitely a psychopath.
But what about the other ones? The ex-school friend, teacher, co-worker, boss, date, travel mate, neighbour, friend’s boyfriend, boyfriend’s sister and anyone else in my life who has shown coldness, manipulativeness, irresponsibility, shallowness, aggression etc? Psychopaths only comprise 1% of the population, so how can I possibly have known 10-20 of them, whether directly or by proxy, over the last decade? I do meet a lot of people through my job and travels, but quite frankly there is no way that an average person (or even one with an adventurous lifestyle) can get to know 2000 people well enough to confidently make a diagnosis of psychopathy. No matter how good we are at spotting red flags and danger signs: psychopathy is an all-encompassing, all-pervasive mental make up which cannot be reduced to sporadic or selective amoral behaviours. I am pretty confident that I would not qualify as a psychopath on any accepted clinical test, even though I need excitement more than the average person, I am impulsive, can be quite manipulative (through charm), and have hurt people without feeling guilty. Does that make me a psychopath? No. According to Hare and pretty much the whole psychiatric community, we ALL, with the exclusion of a handful of saintly individuals, exhibit psychopathic traits at some point in our lives. Stress, anxiety, worry, fear, pain, need, and just the sheer impossibility to please all of the people all of the time can numb our conscience and make us act in ways that we might either regret or rationalise ”“ yes, just like real psychopaths! ”“ later. Even though I try my best not to hurt people’s feelings sometimes I do ”“ and then regret it sorely. And other times I just think that the obnoxious guy who keeps hitting on me even though I am clearly uninterested in his shenanigans just deserves to be told to *uck off. I don’t care about his feelings at that point. He is spoiling my night. He is IRRITATING me – a typical psychopathic rationalisation that does not make me a psychopath.
My point is, while most of the time I feel genuinly horrified at the stories I read on your site, I have also noticed a tendency to extrapolate way too much from the behaviour of people observed from afar, for a very short time, and in only one aspect of their lives. Just to make an example (see post on 22nd of July), the boyfriend of Elizabeth Conley’s neighbour who needs babysitting for his daughter because, according to him, his ex-wife is a drug addict could certainly be a psychopath. Or he could just be the father of an unfortunate kid whose mother is indeed a drug addict. After all, why would a psychopath even bother to find someone to babysit his daughter if he could just dump her with his ex-wife? Psychopaths DON’T CARE about their children’s welfare. Sure he could have a hidden agenda. But he could equally be a concerned father. Or a decent person who is still angry at his ex-wife for having slighted him. How do we know? Shall we really suspect the existence of a psychopatic party in every relationship that doesn’t move according to our preferred timetable? People are different. And even if this guy were crazily, irrationally vindictive towards his ex-wife, he could still be perfectly able to love and treat others with respect. Slandering his ex could be an isolated incident. After all, even amongst wife beaters only 25% are psychopaths.
Now, I obviously agree that an abuser is an abuser is an abuser and we should all steer clear of them. However, failing to distinguish between real psychopaths and other mentally disordered individuals could have disastrous consequences. Psychopathy is hard wired and cannot be changed: we simply cannot install complex emotions (ie: Photoshop) on Charles Manson’s brain (ie: Commodore 64). The capacity is just not there. But we can treat and improve compulsive tendencies, poor behaviour control (where the ability to feel remorse is present), schizophrenia, depression, alcoholism and many other mental ills conducive to abusive behaviours if there is enough processing power. Lumping everyone who behaves in a way we don’t like under the psychopathic umbrella breeds complacency (because psychopaths are untreatable) and thus deprives people who could benefit from therapy of a chance to improve their lives and that of their long suffering families.
A pocket Freud diagnosis of psychopathy based on flimsy evidence and ill-informed hunches is also extremely damaging for the person who receives one. In fact, accusing someone of being a psychopath without copious proof tantamounts to slandering, which is sinisterly similar to what real psychopaths do to people THEY don’t like.
Finally, while there is no doubt that individuals with unpleasant traits represent more than 1% of the population, if we are talking about unrepentant con men (whether their frauds are financial or emotional) whose brains are evolutionarily different from ours, the number of people who are deemed such on this site seems a bit excessive. My personal opinion is that for Lovefraud to continue being a lifeboat for people who have been at loggerheads with a real predator we should try to be stricter with labels and definitions, rather than taking cheap shots at every suspected jerk that crosses our path. The risk of not doing so is ending up with another bitchy broken hearts club rather than a site that helps people come to terms with the incomprehensible behaviours of a thankfully rarer subspecies of human beings.
audrey,
thank you for posting a very reasonable and well thought out perspective. You are right about everything you say. But I’d like to add a broader perspective to yours which may explain why we at LF are so vigilent.
The fact is this personality disorder falls on a spectrum from mild to severe. The reason for this is that we are all born narcissists. The degree to which we grow away from the narcissistic thinking and behavior is what defines HOW MUCH OF A NARCISSIST WE REMAIN. And then you have also heard us mention “our inner P”. We all have the capability to harden our hearts to empathy (some more than others) while we deal with the real world of cutthrout narcissists. Stress, anger and just being tired increases the “baby behavior” in anyone.
For those of us who have lived with a P for many years and then also studied the books, our antenae are more finally tuned to a P than someone who might have encountered a P for a shorter time.
But the fact is, no one can ever know what another person is actually thinking, so based on that we can’t call anyone a narcissist because we don’t know that they have chosen to be evil. So all we can do is make a judgement call based on the selfishness of the behavior, the damage to others, and the callousness with which all pleas for mercy are recieved.
I feel that you are basing your numbers on a very old and inaccurate measurement. I think that there are more than 1%.
If you want to learn about narcissism in our culture, you can read books such as : http://www.reviews.ctpdc.co.uk/lasch.html
It is a wakeup call to the spiral of our society into the depths of narcissism. That doesn’t happen when only 1% are narcissists.
Here at LF, we are not actually trying to wake up the world, we are just trying to wake up the people who are in dangerously abusive relationships so that they will survive. Being far away, we must err on the side of caution when we advise someone to beware and be safe. Also, we are here to provide nurture and support for people in a very emotionally vulnerable situation.
After the person is safe then we advise learning, reading, investigating on their own. So that they can make their own judgements, just as you have.
I just posted elsewhere that I would love to have a non-profit that dedicates itself to educating people about every aspect of the dangers of narcissism. If we ever did that we would really need someone like you: objective, cautious and analytical.
Another wonderful woman who writes about narcissism is “Anna”. I could not do justice to her wonderful post about discerning a jerk from a narcissist, so i will just link her here.
http://narcissists-suck.blogspot.com/2009/03/malignant-narcissism-brief-overview.html
What she says is that the difference is between people who struggle with selfish impulses and those who EMBRACE them.
After being with a narcissist, you can tell who is embracing and who is not.
If it smells Like poop? and tastes like poop! and feels like poop! Don’t step in it!
It is really simple, some people are chit! you can take the white trash out of the getto but you cant take the getto outa the white trash! Most people are trash!
Audrey:
I appreciate your perspecitve and well written and posted opiniion.
I agree with some of your thoughts and coming from an extremely destructive long term relationship and loss of familial relationships I would not ever wish to be in this position again. I am not sure I could survive it…..with all the aspects of Sociopathic behaviors. I am fully aware of the pain involved and destruction of health.
Again, recovering our lives is an evolution…..I think we all become hyper vigilant and err on the side of paranoia at times…..The destruction is nonexplainable to someone never experiencing it.
I do think it’s wrong to label every jerk a S or any label….but it’s the ‘practice’ in recognizing them. It evolves to a more realistic view of society…..but remember every inch of our being and thoughts have been undermined by the behaviors.
It a healing process we must visit to find our ground again with the society we live in, come to grips with the dangers moving forward.
I think the stat you have of 1% is way off…..My stats are 1 in 4 persons exhibit these traits on some level……so look around now…..with that in mind and it’s very conveivable you know many many toxic persons…….a vineyard varietal….take your pick……
Does it matter what the label is……will you get involved with a Sociopath but not a psychopath? A Narcissist but not a malignant narcissist…….No….you have come close enough….you have done your homework, become aware and educated on it……you will avoid any of them at all costs I bet.
Are you going to get cozy with them…..because you can’t label them……i think not…..it’s all about recognizing the behaviors and steering clear out of self preservation and protection.
Are you suggesting that Mary Jo Buttufuoco shouldn’t label……
The thing is…..these persons nestle in the cracks of non diagnosis…..because they do not need help….it’s you, me…their faults….blame, blame, blame, con, con, con!
It’s like saying I’m not a smoker because you don’t ever see me smoke……
Or I am not a criminal because I didn’t get caught/convicted….
Are you defined as a criminal, NO! Are you not a criminal? Yes….it’s teh behaviors that make you a criminal….not the conviction.
My ex said he wasn’t a drug dealer, he was never convicted……I saw it, the kids saw it…….He WILL NEVER convince us as others who didn’t witness it, that he is not a drug dealer…..I never refer to him as a convicted drug dealer…..but he is still a drug dealer!
I will always err on the side of caution and call a spade a spade…..
I WAS MARRIED TO AN UNDIAGNOSED MALIGNANT NARCISSISTIC DRUG DEALING SOCIOPATH!
I don’t recommend we go out and start yelling sociopath on the street…..but i do think the awareness to society is imperative to curbing the behaviors……again a crack they nestle into….no one knows……people are not aware and continue to make excuses for the odd, cumulitive behaviors….
I think it boils down to protection and self preservation, becasue I don’t believe any one of the LF members have it in them to walk blindly into the arms of another sociopath or whatever you wish to call them.
We are here to support each other through the healing process, regaining life……life consists of work, child rearing, self esteem, education, divorces, dating, home purchases, losses, illnesses, advocating, custody, lonliness, news, awareness…….whatever our members are going through and how our feelings in regards to the topic du jour have been affected moving forward and how they affect each of us reading the posts…….
It’s all about the healing……and I think we are in a very effective healing and awareness site.
I’m glad you got away from bigger troubles and ‘got it’ quick.
Your a very lucky person and I hope you take your new education and awareness in to a lifetime of wonderful relationshiops.
Thanks for your contribution.
XXOO
EB
Well, I am a bottom line person….I can’t see getting into some long winded philosophical debate on whether a person is a psychopath or not. [I agree with easy: if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck…..] I’ve lived long enough and experienced enough in life to realize it’s not worth our time and it really does not achieve much in the way of knowledge or agreement. To quote Mark Twain: “I never let my schooling get in the way of my education.”