By | February 12, 2010 230 Comments

Tell the experts about your experience with a sociopath

Lovefraud invites you to complete a survey about your experience with a sociopath/psychopath/narcissist in order to help professionals diagnose this disorder properly.

Two days ago, the American Psychiatric Association released a draft of the fifth edition its Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM 5). This book is the standard classification of mental disorders used by mental health and other professionals. The revision has been underway for a decade.

A work group of 11 doctors and psychologists focused on the section about personality and personality disorders. They have recommended significant changes to the description of antisocial personality disorder, which is also referred to as sociopathy and psychopathy. In fact, one of the suggestions is to change the name of the personality disorder to “antisocial/psychopathic type.”

The new description of the disorder is much closer to what most of us at Lovefraud have experienced. You can read the description here:

Antisocial/Psychopathic Type

The American Psychiatric Association has invited public comment on the draft of DSM 5, and Lovefraud is taking the doctors up on their invitation. We thought the best way to do it would be to survey our readers, asking you how well the proposed description of antisocial/psychopathic type matches your experience with one (or more) of these individuals.

Please take the survey. This is serious, so be thoughtful and accurate in your responses. It will probably take you about 15 minutes, so please start it when you are sure you have time to complete it.

The survey will be open until March 3, 2010. After that, we will tabulate and analyze the data. We will prepare a report of the findings for the American Psychiatric Association. The results will also be published on Lovefraud.

Go to the survey:

Lovefraud DSM 5 survey

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Quantum Solace

I think the term “Antisocial/Psychopathic Type” is a very good one. Perhaps, by changing it, the public can get more educated on what the disorder really is. I hesitate using the term Psycho/Sociopath as I know from experience that it is very misused, misunderstood and a very bad label which can even backfire on the person using it. Once that term is used, the user is less likely to be taken seriously as it has become such a generic term to describe any type of abnormal behavior or any individual acting outside the expected norms. Changing the name of the disorder can make a great – and positive – difference in the way these individuals are perceived and shed more understanding on the subject.

I look forward to seeing the results of the survey.


Here is some inspiration on the need for education. Read this and fume!

At least the prosecutors seem to get it….the defense attorney is letting herself be used as a tool.


I wish they were also considering, besides antisocial/psychopathic type:

Narcissistic/psychopathic type.

I think some who are far along on the psychopathic continuum fit the antisocial criteria well, where others, perhaps because of intelligence or upbringing or social class, fit more the narcissistic personality disorder traits than the antisocial. Compare OJ Simpson (more narcissistic/psychopathic) or the fictional character Thomas Crown to a …I dunno…guy who has been in and out of prison, never held a job for long, cheating widows out of money, always on the wrong side of the law, as well as ruthless and cold and unempathetic.

Maybe they are all antisocial, but some never really break a law. (I realize OJ did and so did Thomas Crown). But I’m thinking of the article Steve wrote on the narcissiopath, and am wondering if this new criteria will encompass those or not.

Glad to see the question on the survey that asks if they fooled the public most of the time!

The P I was involved with was very cunning, and while impulsive in many ways, was smart enough to have learned to really mask his anger and take on false modesty. Cold and calculating can describe some of the types, instead of angry. Though certainly anger is under there, but carefully, carefully hidden unless you are in an intimate relationship and they slip and the masks drops, even if just for a few moments. Like long enough to kill you, judging by the look in their eye!


Wheeeeeeeeee! Isn’t this fun? My S-ex, mother, father, conman brother and ex-boss have all been rated.

I wish the survey had been refined a bit further on the time frames. For example, the questions relating to when the S first exhibited certain behaviors should have a category 1-3 months. I make that comment since so many bloggers have commented on the fact that at month 3 it is like a bell goes off in a cluster-Bs head and their behavior undergoes a change. I also would have like a box to describe certain behavior exhibited by he S. For example, my boss would literally snap a pencil in 2 when you went into her office to discuss some problem. Absolutely nutsy behavior.

neveragain: I agree with your comment. The narcissistic/psychopathic types are a type unto themselves.

Ox Drover


A person can be a N without being a P, and there is a continuim of course, all Ps are Ns but not all Ns are Ps.

While this new DSM V isn’t perfect, it is SOOOO much better than what we had/have in the IV that it is a definite step in the right direction! (IMHO)


I think the new term Anti Social Behavior Disorder sounds too docile for what these people put their victims through. While sociopath has the more extreme sounding definition, I believe it is more accurate.


I think they should use N/P/S/A . . so that there is no confusion that these are narcissists, psychopaths, sociopaths, and anti-social. They are all wrapped in one.
Just as we are women/ladies/females/dames, they are N/P/S/A.
We should not give them any “wiggle” room, and stop quibbling.
N/P/S/A has worked quite well in this forum. We all know what we mean when we say he/she is a “N/P/S/A”!

Great article, Donna. I took the survey using my experiences with my bio father.

I mean, he was the very first psychopathic personality in my life and most definitely has had a decided influence on me not only in my childhood but all the years preceeding.

As I wrote before on here, the dude literally eminated wrongness, evil. I just stayed away from him. I detested, loathed him as a little girl. Still do although he’s dead and gone from the material realm having died in prison. Where he belonged. Good riddance to bad rubbish, wot wot!

I don’t know about you folks, but I consider malignant narcissism to be in the same category as antisocial/psychopathy. Only technicalities separate the two. Their both damn evil exploiters and predators.

The creep I was shortly involved with 3 years ago is someone I would believe to be rather low-medium on the Narcissists’ continuum. No, I wouldn’t define him as evil just incredibly deluded, stingy, selfish and totally immature. A big, stupid adult-baby is what I call him.

But, what do I know. The Holy Bible lists descriptions of evil acts and many of them would apply to how he behaved. And I observed him closely quite often and it’s a fact that he had created a fantasy self in which he never did wrong, was perfect in every way. Can I hear a resounding NOT?!

Anyway, I’m rambling. Great comments also, lovely people. Gives me food for thought constantly. Thank you.

Ox Drover


The problem with any diagnosis that is not diagnosed by a blood test or an MRI or whatever that is OBJECTIVE is gonna have some problems because “impulsiveness” is SUBJECTIVE, like “how high is UP?” or “how tall does a person have to be to be called TALL?”

Of course there is someone who to me is tall at 6 ft, but others might say that it is 6’2″ or 6’9″ or whatever.

Unfortunately psychological diagnoses are SUBJECTIVE.

Even the law makes a difference in taking someone’s life.

It is not a crime if you are in fear of your own life. Self Defense. But if you plan a killing, and then do it, it is MURDER. One person goes free without any legal problems and the other one (should) go to jail for ever. And, there are degrees in between. There is no differences except motive and intent, someone is STILL DEAD.

In going through some boxes of my P-son’s letter to me, going back to 1990, when he was in prison for robbery, I found all kinds of interesting things, including a newspaper article I had saved about the GENE for risktaking being identified. The last sentence of the article (no paper noted or date) but by Malcolm Ritter says “About 15 percent of people in Israel, Europe and the US carry the novelty-seeking form of the gene. But just why it would encourage novelty-seeking is still a mystery, Ebstein said.”

Of course we know that most P’s have a “novelty-seeking” gene because they cannot STAND BOREDOM and have to mix things up to not be bored, but if 15 % of the people named have this gene, why are they not all Ps?

It also says that “people who are above average in novelty-seeking are impulsive, fickle, excitable, quick tempered, and extravagant while those socring below average tend to be reflective, rigid, loyal stoic, slow to anger and frugal.”

Now if you look at the people HIGH IN THIS NOVELTY-SEEKING GENE, that sound pretty P-ish, doesn’t it?

And if you look at the people in the “below a verage” group, does that sound like VICTIMS or what?

One of the researchers mentioned was Richard Ebstein in Israel, and also a guy named Brian Gladue, Ph.D psychologist at Uni of Cincinnati.

Of course there is some environmental concerns as well, but the genes are definitely there to start with. I hope that one day there will be a TEST that can show a person who is genetically prone toward P-ness, and that there is either a medication or some other treatment that will deflect this when he/she is a child. They have come a long way in treating Bi-Polar and other serious mental illnesses that adversely effect behavior so maybe it will eventually happen.

I’m almost through filing the letters and other documents and about ready to get on with the next step. I have pulled out some of the letters that I perused as I filed and found some “damning” comments in his own hand writing so hopefully, I will succeed in getting him at least another five year set off, and I also flashed on the fact that the preparation I am doing for this parole hearing will also help me in working against him inheriting anything from my mom when the time comes due to “undue influence” he had on her, I do not intend to get this money for myself, but for the charity that is most dear to her heart! So, no one can accuse me of being greedy for myself. I am so alturistic it makes me want to puke sometimes! LOL I can’t wait for the results of this survey I think it will be veryyyyyy interesting!


Hi everyone,

Widiger and Lynam translated the various PDs into the “langage” of the Five Factor Model (the “big five”) personality structure as defined by Costa & McRae (1992). Then they studied (2001) the relationship between prototypical psychopathy (Hare/Cleckley) and other PDs based on the DSM IV.

The facet overlap is as follows : Paranoid : .10 ; Schizoid : -.42 ; Schizotypal -.25 ; Antisocial : .88 ; borderline : .41 ; histrionic : .54 ; Narcissistic : .85 ; Avoidant : -.72 ; Dependent : -.84 ; Obsessive-compulsive : -.36.

A perfect overlap would give a score of 1.00. Negative scores show that there is no overlap.

So there is a strong overlap with Narcissists (.85) and Antisocials (.88), a moderate overlap with Histrionics (the extrovert/attention seeking dimension) and Borderline, and a mild overlap with paranoid individuals (the dog-eat-dog world concept).

I think they are right to reduce the number of personality types.
Anyway, it’s better to think of personality as a pluridimensional continuum.


I think if you click on the link and read the description of the propsed disorder you will see that it does have a criteria in it that covers narcissism as well as covering the fact that they don’t have to be criminals to meet the criteria also. And they have both the trait and type being added.


Thankyou Donna for organising this – this is a fantastic idea and I was delighted to contribute to it – is there anything else we can do? Do they want some testimonies from individual victims? I would have liked to see some questions on the effects it had on us both during the relationship and after. Do these people realise the harm these characters cause to real people in real life?? Or do they think psychos are isolated people who live in a vaccuum and don’t do too much damage?

I actually think they should just call it Antisocial Psychopath Disorder – rather than including the word ‘type’ – it gets too long and that was the problem with Anti-social disorder. I am glad to see some consideration being given to retaining the term ‘psychopath’ though – I think this clearly delineates the seriousness of the disorder and the danger of engaging with one of these individuals.

Many thanks again 🙂


Thanks very much Donna – I am a bit put off by those ‘consultation type’ documents so thanks for giving me the link – I will have a look at it tomorrow and put some thoughts together.


Sarah 999,
Maybe we should call it the NSPCA. Do you think that is where Michael Vick fits in? Just joking of course. I think the term antisocial makes people think that these people want to avoid human contact when in fact that is their preyground. No wonder though it is so hard to officially diagnose someone with this. Disorder we know, but it could manifest in multiple ways like different heads of Cerberus or any one of Sybil’s personalities.


Wow. I have been so wrapped up – I didnt see this. Thanks for doing this Donna. I am going to take a look at it now.

I agree with sarah about the term antisocial and it giving the picture that they avoid human contact.

apologies – its teacher I agree with… but now I look down and I find I also agree with sarah:)x


I have also found, there is a lot of confusion among laymen (& even some professionals) about these 4 terms.

They WRONGLY think:

Narcissist . . is just somebody who likes to admire themselves in the mirror.
Psycopathy . . is the same as psychotic . . where people are not in contact with reality.
Anti-Social . . . is someone who is not friendly (social)
Sociopath . . is a serial killer.

These errors in definition are embedded into the brains of so many people, and cause confusion. When in fact, we are describing the same thing.
Which is a person with:
1) an extreme sense of entitlement
2) lack of empathy (or compassion)
3) inappropriate rage outbursts
4) blaming (projective identification)
5) bullying, manipulative, charming
6) lying & gas-lighting
7) exploitative

8) sadism(can someone tell me how to get rid of the smily face?- I don’t mean for it to be here!)
9) aggressive/dominating/predatory behavior
10) not taking responsibility
11) no remorse
12) “EVIL” – my addition: I think if someone is N/P/S/A (has the above characteristics) He/she is EVIL. (That’s just me!)

I think this cluster of behaviors needs a “new label” so that everybody understands what is meant. N/P/S/A has worked well here . . why not continue with that?


That clears it up for me. Thanks for the post. It would help if there would be one diagnosis/label instead of a cluster of things.


N/P/S/A’s cause confusion where ever they go. It’s their MO!
(resulting from all their above behaviors).

Why am I NOT surprised, that even their definition is wrought with confusion?

I posted a comment on the new definition. It’s easy to register.

The request I made, and if anyone thinks it’s worthwhile, I wish you’d mention it on your comments, is that they also consider as a “symptom” their history of damaging other people’s lives.

All personality disorders reflect dysfunctional or delusional reactions to life experiences. But the antisocial’s behavior is characteristically predatory. The means that there are victims with losses.

In diagnosing these people, there may not always be evidence of victims. But often there will be. And the typical damage to those victims goes well beyond the physical or financial, because part of the predatory strategy is to break through the victims’ normal self-defensive instincts and behaviors, and then break down their will through attacking their beliefs, values and self-esteem.

I know that all we have suffered could be identified by other models, such as PSTD, Stockholm Syndrome, etc. But our reality is that there is such a thing as post-psychopath syndrome. I argue that it is part of the diagnostic definition of a psychopath. It is what they do. And even if there may be propensities or vulnerabilities on our side to get involved with these people, what happened to us is not something we did to ourselves. We were not only targeted, but we were deliberated manipulated in a way that reflects the psychopath’s psychology.

I think the diagnostic criteria would be improved by reference to the victims and their experience. And it would give us, who hope to change laws and general awareness, validation and credibility.



Oh I think that is fantastic Kathleen. If my ED could be diagnosed by the tangible damage she does and has done (there is evidence, records)to peoples lives she would be totally sprung. there are ‘odd’ people, angry people, with all sorts of mental health issues, but cutting a swathe of devastation in others lives continually, I believe is the territory of the Psychopath.

You know, I was very confused the first time I heard/read the term antisocial years and years ago.

I thought it referred to introverted people, those who preferred solitude rather than social situations. Meaning, I thought I was an antisocial! Oh man, was I so confused and even a bit frightened by the idea I might be antisocial.

Now, I know the difference. Still an introvert who needs quiet time to recharge my batteries but I’m no longer shy, self conscious as before and thoroughly enjoy mingling with the masses. On occasion, not every day. That would deplete my energy reserves to the max, leaving me a worn out old rag of a person.

Maybe we should just call them nihilists. True, they appear to be gregarious animals on introduction, utilizing whatever persona they created to deceive their victims but in actuality…they hate all life, everything of beauty and substance and meaning.

They are the purveyors of hate and fear and destruction aka nihilists.

Just a thought…


hello all


Ox Drover

I agree with you all, “antisocial” does sound like a hermit. I myself have referenced people as “anti-social” meaning doesn’t want to associate with others much.

Kathleen, I agree with you that were there is a predator, there has to be a victim or victim-s, however, the person doing the assessing may not have access to a history of serial victimization. With a convict, who is locked up and has been convicted of multiple crimes you would have that “history” of someone taking advantage of someone else, but not necessarily any history of multiple emotional or financial abuses of a spouse. And, keep inmind that many spouses who report their SO for physical abuse, eventually reconcile with them and drop the charges. Though in some areas the police have prosecuted anyway.

It is true that 99.9% of ps do have a long history of abuse and repeat abuse of all kinds, but it doesn’t always show up to the person who is testing or evaluating them.

Back in “the old days” when I took over a case load of chronically mentally ill, and frankly I think many of them had plenty of AXIS II (cluster B) traits as well as depression and bi-polar, I seldom got an accurate “history” except by talking to these people for quite some time over a period of many months. And, I think we all know how “normal” a P can sound if there is no one around to call them a liar and have proof of it. Everyone of us here (by virtue of the fact we are here) has been fooled pretty good for quite some period of time by a P or Ps—so we know it can be done, even in the most intimate of relationships. Boy can they twist “history”—-and project all problems on to others. So getting an accurate history is difficult especially with a P.

Interestingly enough, my P-son marked down on some of his paper work that he had a BS in computer sciences, and that is an easy one to “disprove.” He dropped out of high school and got a GED in jail, he has never been out of jail longer than 5 months since he was 17 so WHEN would he have gotten this BS in Computer science? He didn’t get it prison because he has consistently refused college courses even though my egg donor offered to pay for them. He hasn’t stayed out of solitary long enough to have completed any course work, he even got tossed out of welding class the day before the test when he was first arrested for his first adult felony and did 2 years.

He told one of his convict buddies that the crime he was in for was for shooting a man who had killed his wife in revenge for a drug deal gone wrong—-LOL Unless he got married and I didn’t know about it when he was 17 he’s never had a wife. LOL He did get a 13 year old preg when he was 17 however, and I have no doubt it was deliberate. I’m glad, frankly, that that child was never born. The one thing I am GLAD of is that I have no grandchildren that are biological offspring. There was a time when that was my greatest desire and prayer, but I am glad that God said “No” to that prayer, sometimes a “No” is the best answer to a prayer.

Taking my P son out of the gene pool is a good thing, I wish more of them were out of the pool, pour in the chlorine!


Hi All:
Because the book “The Sociapath Next Door” by Martha Stout describes the person I was involved with so so perfectly, I have come to see “sociopath” as the most appropriate word for this disorder. I agree with other posters that “antisocial” is not really accurate- certainly not with the person I knew who was constantly charming and manipulating people. Another good descriptive term which was not listed on the survey is “conscienceless” or “without conscience”.

JaneSmith, I like where you’re going with the nihilists. Sort of like my masters of chaos. Or the people of the lie. Or the dark angels of Rilke.

I mused over “antisocial” too. Anti also “means the opposite of.” I was thinking about people who cannot do connectivity of any sort except vampiric sucking, can’t trust, can’t feel empathy, can’t do mutuality, can’t do peer relations, and even hate themselves. Probably because themselves is a big void in which a tiny frightened child sits in the dark, refusing to forgive anyone and blasting out sad, bad, angry, hurt, unloved and unlovable vibes like a radio tower. Even while the shiny Teflon shell is being charming and attentive.

I think antisocial means against the social too. But because the psychopath doesn’t do social but recognizes the social world offers the best chance to survive and thrive. Like an alien nation arriving to mine the earth for rare minerals, they mine society for whatever they want. Because society is a collaborative effort, and psychopaths only take, they leave trails of destruction. No, wakes of destruction that ripple out in our interconnected world, stolen resources taxing community stability. They are like termites in a wooden house.

A friend of mine once said to me that when stock or options traders gamble with ten-to-one leverage (serially borrowing money on the value of a stock and then reinvesting it, ten times), they win big when they win. If they lose, the cost is usually born by the stockholders or the public. That is a sociopath’s game. Head’s I win; tails you lose.

I want, somehow, for the diagnostic criteria to contextualize this in terms of personal and community destruction. If there is a reasonable assumption of sociopathic tendencies, I want it assumed that they are liars. That any evaluation must be based on environmental information — such as the statements of former associates — as well as anything they might say.

I suppose this is a bad idea, that it violates some Constitutional right. Or that they could easily jack that system by making up even worse stories than everyone else. But everyone else wouldn’t have such a lot of bad references or emotionally distraught people in their past.

This is just a fairy tale I’m dreaming up, right? I go back to wishing there were something like a credit bureau for character. That people could write testimonials, like they do on LinkedIn. Good and bad. Anonymous if they want. Just so I could have looked up that little jerk, and known. I still can’t believe his last girlfriend didn’t warn me, but she was suffering from a panic disorder and was too stoned on Xanax all the time.

Another way for them to hide their tracks. Suicide is good. The next best thing is something like long-term panic disorder. So they don’t talk, and even if they do, who’d believe them? “I just don’t understand what happened to her,” he used to say. “She was so much fun when I met her.”

Oh well…


I always dreamt of renting a big signage board along the exressway near his exit …his picture, his name in big blinking lights….a photo of the judgement against him… saying… warning women/men he lies, he cheats, he steals… and he is just one of many out there… Educate yourself before you become the next victim…go to! He would probably drive by and just see his face and name in big blinking lights and love it!!!!!!


I agree that diagnosis should include statements from people who have been wronged by them – after all they are pathological liars so anything they say is worthless and cannot be trusted.

I think by making this a ‘type’ there is a gradual movement away from the bias towards formal diagnosis – that’s my feeling anyway. I think having a listing of affects and behaviours in this way allows targets to run through it and say ‘this person has only two that don’t apply so there’s a high chance they WOULD be diagnosed as this type’. Let’s face it – the only way they will go for formal diagnosis is if they are forced to … they see nothing wrong with what they do, so a listing for targets is a great thing.

I would also like reference made to the destruction they cause via relationships, whether romantic or family based. There seems to be absolutely no mention of this at all. Perhaps a corresponding listing of victim experiences would be useful too – ie ‘Are you… doubting yourself, depressed, contemplating suicide, getting confused about history because the P tells you so?’

Just a dream just a dream. I made two short videos on psychopathy last night – just my general understandings at this point about symptoms and signs. I haven’t posted them yet and may redo them, but it was a brave first move lol

Ox Drover

As long as we are dreaming, if they are diagnosed, they have to go live on Devil’s island! Let them prey on each other, biggest meanest P wins!


lol @ Oxy – I think they should all live together too! That way they leave us normal folk alone 🙂


I bet we could raise the funds to purchase secluded/remote/desolate property to set them free on…..


Dear OxDrover,

I had the exact same thought many times. That we should put all N/S/P/As together, in an area that is far away from all of us.


That’s what’s so great about these websites that out dysfunctional, toxic psychopathic predators.

Yes, there are psychopaths who vehemently claim to be the poor, little victim and not the real predator that they are. But when you begin to read the pissed off comments from true victims, a plethora of them cascading underneath the first post, the truth is revealed for all to see.

The stories are eerily similar in almost all details (as we see on LF all the time), same characteristics, same MO, same sick, demented, perverted loser doing the same chit to everyone.

It’s good that more and more people are outing the evil humanoids who hurt them in so many ways, whether parents, siblings, ex lovers, colleagues, and bosses.

The more we know the more we can help ourselves and others.

Ooh, you lovely LF members…

I like my science fiction fantasy of sending all the useless blackhearts who roam across our beautiful planet, and the majority of those in penal institutions, to the Prison Planet Epsilon 4000-X located in the Dire System.

Just dump them on a barely habitable planet, throw some garden tools and supplies to give them a start so as to show we’re not soulless, heartless b*stards like they are, and skip off into the stratosphere in our fancy, smancy starships.

Hey, it seems rather sensible to me. Out of sight, out of mind.



If were going to dump em……I’d prefer heartless…..just dump em……
let em find their own way…..



LOL – oh thanks – you have cheered me out of my dark funk today – dumping them all on a distant planet (with or without tools) sounds like a fab idea! I vote for without tools – we don’t want to aggravate their sense of entitlement in any way! Anyhow – they’re so smart and clever I am sure they can figure it out on their own (NOT!!!!)

Kathleen,Rainer Maria Rilke is my favourite poet of all time!
And the phrase “Dark angels’ comes from my favourite, the first of the Duino Elegies, which he wrote to his patroness, Princess Marie von Thurn und Taxis Hohenlohe. She gave him the use of Schloss Duino indefinitely, asa quiet safe place to write his poems in.Not a bad exchange Im sure youll agree!
It begins,
“Who if I cried, would hear me among the Angelic orders— wonderful stuff! It must sound even better in German! Love, GemXX


Anti-social is a word people use to describe someone who stays home and doesn’t want to party..which is the exact opposite of a sociopath IMO. So why not stick with Sociopath and hope in time the public will get a better grasp on the definition. Of course there are always going to be people who don’t get it. Some people still insist on thinking schizophrenia means ‘split personality’.

As a side note; this is a bit random, but today I was watching the cartoon movie Jungle Book on DVD with my son, and there’s a bit in the movie where the resident SNAKE (a boa-constrictor) is trying to lull Mogli in for the kill. The snake’s little intro included the words “Don’t you trusssst me?” and then followed by hypnotising Mogli with his eyes…all the while gently chanting “trussst me, trussst me”

No prizes for guessing who that reminded me of!! “Just trust me” was his catch-phrase..

I think the makers of Jungle Book were onto something..


credit bureau for sociopaths: we can build one – every time we tell the truth about them on the net.

if it wasn’t for one of her others dupes writing on the net, and having a couple of articles in the press – I would never have known.

We need to figure how to out them on the net, while preserving our safety. Plant the seeds in our/ their communities.

there are ways to do this – we just need to focus on it t figure it out. Remember Margaret Mead.

It took me 15 years to create a tool box of methods and the internal balance to present parts of myself that are outside the norm in a way that others ‘get it’, and to be imperturbable with those who are without enough of a mind to ‘get it’.

we CAN do this.


rosie – rudyard kipling was an infamous imperialist. the spathy snake (all seduction and take, no give) was very much about the ’empire’s’ relationship with the colonized.

Ox Drover

“Trussssst me!” Yep, they demand our complete TRUST and they devalue us over and over, and yet, demand again our “trust”—because without our trust, they can’t get close enough to us to hurt us.

Just as a snake can’t get close enough to the mouse to grab him unless the mouse (a) doesn’t know what the snake is (b) doesn’t know there is danger in the snake (c) the snake is so well cammo’d that the mouse doesn’t know he is there.

The lucky mouse who has ESCAPED from a snake’s attack once, though, should be somewhat forearmed, and maybe that mouse from then on will avoid garden hoses as well, but if it LOOKS LIKE A SNAKE, stay away!

We have been fortunate enough to come within the grasp of the predator, but we have escaped with our lives, there are some people who have NOT escaped with their lives and their Psychopath has killed them, or severely injured them physically, killed their children, etc. I know that we feel hurt, injured, etc. but I do thank God that I am ALIVE, that I did ESCAPE with my life, even if somewhat emotionally injured. I will live to recover, I am recovering, and I will beware of anyone who even resembles a psychopath—-anyone who shows a propensity to lie, steal, be overtly rude, etc. Not all those people who lie or even steal or are rude are psychopaths, but I still don’t need or want these people close to me—“close is good enough in horseshoes, and handgrenades” as they say, and I will also add in RED FLAGS and Psychopaths!


Yes I will be avoiding anything looking like a garden hose… that made me lol.
I just had another ‘aha’ moment when you said ‘without our trust they can’t get close enough to hurt us’, because towards the end of our relationship I would flat-out say ‘no, I DON’T trust you, and it’s up to you to earn that back’ . I guess earning it back was in the ‘too hard basket’ and easier to go forth and conquer someone who hasn’t been bitten.

I will google Rudyard Kipling, he sounds like a real…character

EB and Midlife,

You two are some tough, stern ladies.

Me likee…haha!

And you are correct, as usual. They’d probably end up bashing each other on the head with the tools instead of using them to grow gardens for necessary, life sustaining food. How pathetic.

They won’t be able to sponge off each other for money and food because every one of those humanoids would have the same amount of stuff….none.

Whatever. Once we dump em they ain’t our problem any longer. We can go back home and live contented, peaceful, joyful lives without some evil freak interfering with our growth and enlightenment.




You put it so kindly….Thanks!
I am used to hearing Bitch…..
Which ofcourse is just fine too!

Keep in mind….even if they appear to have Nothing on this ‘island’….this is where canabalism will prevail…..
The S will ALWAYS be able to survive off of others (and seemingly have an excuse for killing another)… eat dog…..
I deal with anyone who has hurt/stolen/violated or abused me or my kids in this manner…’s either YOU or ME…..Biatch!

My kids say i’m ruthless now….
so very true now…..I’ve spent the majority of my life giveing too much of myself….and getting burned……
So… developed some backbone…..
maybe some day I won’t need to be so ruthless and biatchy….
when that island is built and the one wayers are on it!!!



Funny how they project this….

I remember after our kids called the police and the cops made him leave the home…..He would call and just go nuts on the fact he’s NEVER inhis life heard of someones kids calling the police on their father…..(he doesn’t get out much!)
He went on and on for months and months about this one….NOT being able to trust the kids….and it was up to the kids to develope HIS trust back….WTF??? YOU were the one abusing them…..????
THen…..he started on me….It morphed into my issue….I didn’t stop the kids from calling the police…..WE called the police…
WE, we, we……weeeeeeeeeeeeee

Yeah, whatever… that point I had taken off the rose glasses and put on the decoder glasses….it was clear how warped he was….

Trust is a two way street…..
once the car is dented….it’s dented! Period……even if it gets fixed and a new paint job…..eventually the new paint will CHIP!


I don’t think you’re biatchy and ruthless. Total opposite as proven by your many concerned and supportive responses to hurting people.

What I’ve ascertained by your words and the tone is that you’re super strong, reselient, caring, loving, determined, and unswerving in your morals, values, principles and convictions.

That ain’t bad qualities to possess. Those be some AWESOME qualities to posses, if I may say so.

Let the fools and losers call you what they will. They don’t know squat in their deluded, ego obsessed, little bitty pea brains.

You win, they lose. Game over.



Shoot, I sincerely hope you know I wasn’t including your beautiful children in with the group of fools and losers. Ack! I would never, ever say such a horrible thing!

I was referring to psychopaths and the garden variety mix of creeps, weirdos, and abject losers who strive to tear you down with cruel and vicious words. Not what your babies say to you. Never!

Just wanted to clear that up. Do not wish for any confict or misunderstanding between me and any of the LF tribe members.


Game over!

Thanks Jane…..your a love!!


I knew exactly what you meant…..
Although….from time to time….I do question one of my kids….

Ox Drover

Dear EB,

I am also a b1atch, and it is **MS** B1ATCH to them!

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