I recently heard from a man, whom we’ll call “Jeff,” who wanted to know if the woman he was involved with, “Amanda,” was a sociopath.
It started as a friendly involvement, with Jeff trying to help Amanda out. Amanda, who was from a foreign country, called Jeff her “best friend.” Jeff eventually started to have feelings for her. But then came a series of unsettling experiences:
- Amanda made pornographic videos, which were posted on the Internet.
- Amanda worked as an escort. Jeff offered to pay her rent, so she wouldn’t have to be an escort, and Amanda agreed—and continued being an escort anyway.
- Then Jeff asked Amanda to sign a contract promising that she wouldn’t be an escort. She signed it—and broke the deal again, with absolutely no guilt.
- Amanda claimed to be struggling financially. Although Jeff wasn’t well off, he gave her money—and then discovered that Amanda sent a large sum of money back to her home country.
- Jeff discovered Amanda was having multiple liaisons, often on the same day. One guy was married, one was a “sugar daddy,” and several were her “best friend.”
- Other men were also paying her phone bill and rent.
- Jeff stopped taking her calls, but did communicate via email. They agreed to get together to “talk things over.” Amanda cancelled.
- When they did finally have a conversation, Jeff thought Amanda’s words sounded hollow. He also realized her words were used for manipulation, not for communicating the truth.
- Jeff stopped talking to Amanda. But he knew that if he contacted her again, she would be nice and friendly, as if nothing ever happened.
So is Amanda a sociopath? I think so, and that’s what I told Jeff.
His next question was, “What are the most glaring indications that she is a sociopath?”
And that brings us to the point of this article: The most glaring indication of sociopathy is not any particular trait or behavior, but the overall pattern of traits and behaviors.
Sociopathy is a syndrome. What exactly does that mean? Here’s the Dictionary.com definition:
Pathology, Psychiatry . a group of symptoms that together are characteristic of a specific disorder, disease, or the like.
So, although Amanda is an escort, it doesn’t necessarily make her a sociopath. She took advantage of Jeff, but that doesn’t make her a sociopath. She had multiple sexual relationships, but that doesn’t make her a sociopath. Her words sounded hollow, but that doesn’t make her a sociopath. And, if Jeff and Amanda ever talked again, she would act as if nothing happened, but that doesn’t make her a sociopath.
Amanda is a sociopath because of her overall traits and pattern of behavior, including promiscuity, entitlement, manipulation, exploitation, breaking agreements, lying, shallow emotions and lack of remorse. All of these characteristics, taken together, add up to character disorder.
Something to ponder, the Springsteen Song “Candy’s Room”:
In Candy’s room there are pictures of her heroes on the wall
but to get to Candy’s room you gotta walk the darkness of Candy’s hall
Strangers from the city call my baby’s number and they bring her toys
When I come knocking she smiles pretty she knows I wanna be Candy’s boy
There’s a sadness hidden in that pretty face
A sadness all her own from which no man can keep Candy safe
We kiss, my heart’s rushes to my brain
The blood rushes in my veins fire rushes towards the sky
We go driving driving deep into the night
I go driving deep into the light in Candy’s eyes
She says baby if you wanna be wild
you got a lot to learn, close your eyes
Let them melt, let them fire, let them burn
Cause in the darkness there’ll be hidden worlds that shine
When I hold Candy close she makes these hidden worlds mine
She has fancy clothes and diamond rings
She has men who give her anything she wants but they don’t see
That what she wants is me,
oh and I want her so
I’ll never let her go, no no no
She knows that I’d give
all that I got to give
All that I want all that I live
to make Candy mine
Tonight
Divorced from Gaslighter and Oxy,
I think we actually DO know some spaths who live within their limits. My parents and Oxy’s eggdonor.
I know you say she’s not a spath. Likely you believe that because she IS so financially responsible. This is the twist. My parents are also financially responsible. They are very proud of that. It’s part of the mask.
It could be that spaths who were the products of the depression are very different than the ones who were born after. It’s like they say, that generation knows the value of a dollar. BUT THAT’S ALL THEY VALUE.
It doesn’t make them any less shallow as human beings. Oh yes and my good sister also has a husband who is extremely abusive emotionally. He’s a very frugal man and an executive.
Maybe we can’t call them psychopaths because these people don’t tell outrageous lies out of the blue and for no reason. Maybe they aren’t sexually promiscuous (or maybe they are).
So just because someone is frugal doesn’t make them healthy people to be around.
I think it boils down to values. Spaths value nothing, not even the money they steal from you before they flush it down the toilet. Other toxic people only value money and material possessions. Healthy people value other healthy people who nourish their souls.
Oh almost forgot my uncle. Born in 1934. He killed his first wife with cancer. He cheated on her constantly. He’s working on a second one.
Divorced from Gaslighter:
Of course! I am sure that everything he is making is going right back out. And the pension plan can’t be touched until he actually retires and that’s a long time from now…haha!
Oxy
I think the way to think about it is that money is a weapon to manipulate people. It’s simply a tool. Spaths use money like anything else. To deceive, to hurt, to get the victim to do this or that.
My spath was a very very wealthy man. Millions in the bank.
He worked in a high end executive office. He bought his clothes for work for like $20 on ebay, and he bought the rest of his clothes at goodwill for under a dollar. He was super frugal, never spent a time, and lived off his wife (and then, ex-wife). His car is 15 years old.
He banked every penny.
It was a way to screw over his wife and to be “superior” to all those foolish people out there who live normally (eat normal food, bought normal clothes, paid their fair share).
SPATH.
My P sister is a successful P. She had her McMansion built for her and it was all paid for before they moved in.
She’s been earning six figures for years. She has bragged to me about her stock holdings.
She is the only person that I have ever heard of who even thought to put in an annual cost-of-living increase in the child support payments that her first ex had to pay for their daughter.
We used to laugh at her when she was about 10 or 12 because she only dressed in dark grays and navy blues and somber, no-nonsense type of outfits. She looked like a banker. She dropped that as the years went on.
She did tell me once, when she was little, that she was saving her money for a rainy day. She thought that was meant literally-she couldn’t spend her money if the sun was out. I laughed and told her what it meant. How many kids think about saving their money? Don’t most kids want to spend it as soon as they get some?
My S mother is successful with money, too. She got very nice and friendly with a relative who ended up leaving her house to my mother and father. My S mother told my cousin’s mother that making that woman my P sister’s godmother was the best thing that they ever did.
Truth, I’m sorry to hear that listening to money talk makes you so uncomfortable. That is sad.
I’ve known various people who probably rate the “toxic narcissist” label who were financially responsible. My own father probably fell into that category.
He was CHEAP with other members of the family, while treating himself better, but he always paid the bills on time, and was very proud of having accumulated the money to put his kids through college, etc. He had a foul temper, and was very sarcastic, and never forgot any sort of slight, but he held a steady job his entire adult life, never got in trouble with the law, was as truthful as most people, and he genuinely admired and respected my mother, probably realizing that most other women would have dumped him.
My father, for all his many faults, had a conscience as well as a personal moral code.
I think it must be VERY rare for someone to be ripping off their own family financially and emotionally and yet dotting every i and crossing every t in their professional life. A big part of what the sociopath does to other people is for the PLEASURE that they get in wrecking the lives of others. Somebody who cheats their way through life out of pure selfishness and narcissistic entitlement is NOT a sociopath, IMO.
It’s very hard to draw the line, as everybody behaves selfishly some of the time, and lots of crazy or rotten people have lots of different behavior patterns. But when you think about it, pathological levels of frugality (including hoarding) are often linked to FEAR, while one of the markers for the sociopath is that they are often thrill-seekers who like to live life on the edge. They lack a normal level of fear, and seem unable to plan for the future.
Divorced from Gaslighter:
I was sitting at a bar one evening with the spath when he told me just out of the blue, “I am a thrill seeker.” He revealed so many spath type behaviors. I did hear it, I really did, but I just didn’t heed it. I was too crazy in “love” to bother…UGGHH.
How would you classify stingy people? The Mr. Scrouges of the world?
How are you defining “success” because when you look at the Wall Street and financial crises, a lot of people involved with that would be considered “successful.” They were making 7 and 8 figures a year.
Would they/did they screw their families financially?
My P sister screwed me financially. She made sure that my mother wrote me out of her will.
G1S: A lot of stingy people come from a background where there was never “enough.” After a childhood history of scanty food, or periodic apartment evictions (and loss of all possessions), etc., they want stability more than anything else, and they associate money in the bank with stability.
Some stingy people eventually get to a point at which they feel financially secure enough to start spending a little more money, but some don’t.
Either extreme (miser vs. spendthrift) is bad, but having had up close and personal experience with both types, I have to say that the spendthrift is more frustrating by far. At least with a miser you can usually negotiate come kind of your money/my money type of arrangement. A spendthrift takes it all.
Also, if you are married to a miser for 30 or 40 years and he drops dead or divorces you, there is a decent possibility that you will get some sort of inheritance or financial settlement. After 30 or 40 years with a spendthrift, there will be a negative net worth. The only thing to split up will be the debts. And if the spendthrift dies, you will have to declare bankruptcy, and the whole spendthrift house of cards will collapse — the house and cars and your whole lifestyle will be over the day the income stops rolling in, because cash flow was the only thing that made your lifestyle possible. ZERO savings of any kind.
After my first child was born, it was like pulling teeth to get my husband to purchase a term life insurance policy, even though he was a “financial planner” by trade. What a laugh! When I saw how CHEAP it was (he was young, healthy, and a nonsmoker) I was astonished. He resented paying any money at all toward a policy that would only pay off if he died. We were deeply in debt, and if he had died while he was the only earner, and the children were tiny, I would have been in very deep trouble.
My idea of a successful person would be anyone with an income that is 10 to 20% or more higher than their outgo, who does not mooch off of anybody else. It is not just a matter of having a high income. You can make a fairly modest amount of money and live well if you are careful.
Divorced from Gaslighter:
Right on! 🙂