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By | May 12, 2010 46 Comments

Treating sexually active priests

A psychologist who treats priests was not  surprised by continuing revelations of sexual abuse in the Catholic Church. But there was something that surprised him:

“It was a surprise for me to see how many psychopaths I met in the priesthood,” Dr. Leslie Lothstein said. “Glib, callous, could say anything to you and be charming.”

Read A psychologist steeped in treatment of sexually active priests, on nytimes.com.

Link suggested by a Lovefraud reader.


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Ox Drover

QUOTE: “When I asked him (a priest) why (after fathering two children) he didn’t just use a condom, he said ‘that’s against the laws of the church'” ROTFLMAO CHOKE SNORT

I know it isn’t funny, but doggone it, I couldn’t help but laugh. At least the man was engaging in sex with an adult woman, not with a 5 year old child!

I think the treatment for pedophiles should be crucifiction–but since that is not allowed, I think the next best thing is natural life in prison.

one/joy_step_at_a_time

dark mood quickly. i spent about 5 minutes trying to find the name a corrosive substance that they could be treated with; then i stopped. i am courting this bloody mindedness, and it doesn’t play well in Peoria, or in my heart.

may i find peace and calm and hone my fierceness, but use it only when it is the right tool. may i develop discernment. may i develop my gentleness again. may i live deep in my body and may i keep growing and taking care of myself. i wish for a gentled safe heart, a safer life, and the sense to run fast first and to never leave myself again, and to use the knife of detachment quickly and efficiently, the and the saber of wrath patiently and efficiently. may we all have and work for and pray/ wish for what is most necessary for us.

Buttons

And, so he says: “And if they don’t have a conscience, you try to give them a mentalizing function” to help them imagine other people’s feelings…” ……….are you kidding me? Help them imagine what? Feelings? For what purpose? So they can work their victims more effectively????? (fainting dead away)

One_step…..{gentle hugs}

Ox Drover

Buttons, yea I got that one too! I was just so out of breath from laughing at the CONDOM comment I couldn’t type to get to the “therapy” one! LOL Thanks for pointing that one out! LOL ROTFRLMAO

Wonder if he knows how to make them CARE about other people’s feelings when they start to “mentalize” them. LOL ROTFLMAO–okay, breatheeeeeee, breatheeeeee!

Buttons

You know, OxD, with all of this insanity, sickness, and EEEEEVIL, there has to be some gallows humor or I’d slip my last cog and go for voluntary in-patient psych. Holy potatoes….

Matt

When I read this article I wasn’t surprised. My religious upbringing was sort of schizophrenic with a Catholic father and an Episcopalian mother. I guess it could have made me a diluted or deluded Catholic, and then I chose my own path.

I am always amazed when I have friends who are Catholic tell me “oh, the Catholic church is changing.” I have news for everyone who says that. The only thing that is ever going to change the Catholic church, or any faith that has been harboring these creatures is being driven into bankruptcy. One thing I learned as both a lawyer and dealing with the S-ex is that the only thing people understand at the end of the day is a hit to their pocket books. Money talks. And people listen when money talks. Especially when the money is flowing out of their pockets.

I am epecially outraged at the Catholic church’s complicity in fereting Cardinal Bernard Law out of Boston hours before the state troopers showed up to subpoena him in connection with the horrific sexual abuse revelations which were going on in the archdiocese in Boston and which Cardinal Law (or, more apprpriately Cardinal Lawless) was at the center of. And what does the Vatican do with him once they have him safely harbored in Vatican City. They put him in charge of the Church of Santa Maggiore and also put him on several important Vatican committees. The whole thing revolts me.

Too bad the victims in Europe can’t sue. But, hopefully they can go after these cretins in criminal court. Meanwhile, when enough archdioceses in the US are bankrupted, maybe the Catholic church will finally decide to enter the real world. It’s taken a few indirect steps. For example, the priest at my father’s Catholic church is a former Episcopalian priest who is married. Under the Catholic church’s “presto-chango” rule, apparently this can happen. I guess if the wife dies, you don’t get a second bite at the apple. But, my father says he’s the best priest they ever had — because he actually can relate to the problems facing the parishoners.

So, let the lawsuits continue — all the jawboning in the world ain’t gonna change a thing in the Catholic church. But having to shell out a hell of a lot of moola to the victims may finally bring about some long overdue change.

Buttons

Yah, Matt, and it might come as an even harder blow if they had to start selling off some of those priceless pieces of art that are cloistered in Vatican City! Thou shalt not covet…stuff!

Ox Drover

It’s always been funny (odd) to me that with all the poverty in the world, the churches and ministers/priests that live like Kings! Now let me see, how “Christ-like” is that? I think Jesus said He had “no place to lay His head”—-so all the satin pillows these “ministers” have don’t seem to me to jive some how! I’ve just got a problem with that!

Buttons

Having been raised Episcopal and attending Catholic School with mom converting to Catholicism late in life, I just don’t get ANY of it. I mean, I really don’t get it. Such a lack of humility just rubs my fur the wrong way, I guess.

Matt

Always found it interesting how nuns take the vow of poverty and priests don’t. At a Catholic church around the corner from where I lived in NYC, a monsignor managed to clip an elderly parishoner for about a million bucks. The list just doesn’t stop.

Buttons

Matt, it’s a Men Only Club, of course! Women can’t be ordained, but they sure can “serve,” can’t they? Holy shitballs….

Ox Drover

Well, the papers reported that a lot of the serious beatings in Ireland of the orphans and school kids was carried out by Nuns, and they are not all Mother Theresa that’s for sure!

The apparently high number of people (male or female) in religious “positions” of authority over the flock MYABE being somewhat higher in psychopaths than the “general population” might go along again with the “positions of authority” and status that the psychopaths seem to crave: ceos, lawyers, doctors, police, politics, religious authority etc. and then yo0u have the other spectrum of the “crime bosses,” “gang leaders” etc. so those of us in the middle seem to get squeezed from both ends!

Wini

I’m just shaking my head. If anyone should know what Jesus taught us by reading his letter to us (the Holy Bible) is that we are born into carnal flesh and Jesus came down to earth to teach us how to think, live and then follow through by conducting spiritually. That’s why He tells us to stay HUMBLE. When we humble ourselves and admit we don’t know His wisdom yet, is when we release the ego, keep our minds open to comprehend His TRUTH.

His TRUTH is simple, people make it difficult and therefore, revolt against His wisdom (ego again which means ERASE GOD OUT). What part of His truth didn’t the nuns comprehend? If they got it, they’d be able to relay this truth of Jesus to the carnally lusting men who wear the robes of priests.

one/joy_step_at_a_time

Wini – given the structure of the church, the rigid hierarchy, with nuns very firmly beneath the priests, i do not believe that anything less than a full scale revolt by ALL the nuns would have an affect.

And i beg to delineate the difference between carnal lust and ‘power, control and corruption’.

Wini

one step, power, control and corruption is lusting in the carnal flesh. Jesus gave man marriage to sanction his carnal craving. He knew most would revolt from learning His spiritual teachings … so he gave us that bread crumb that is to be sprinkled in front of them to peck at by the women. Women’s duties are to bring men to follow Jesus.

With that said, I keep coming back to the reasoning why men have this disdain for women over the years …

Peace.

one/joy_step_at_a_time

wini – i delineate between sexual desire, and the lust for power control and corruption. i do not see them as one and the same. i see that i wasn’t clear, and that i am using the term ‘carnal lust’ differently than you are – not suggesting that we hold the same opinion ;), just realized i was not very clear.

i have certainly known many women who think it is their duty to bring men to right thought and action, but have never thought or discussed with anyone that sex within marriage was a small outlet for men’s wickedness; which having been somewhat sated, would make men more amenable to the right action and thought. but as i write this i realize that some of what i have seen between men and women could definitely be ‘broken out’ this way. very interesting.

and very interesting to make this connection about disdain. i don’t know why there is this disdain – what the roots truly are. i can give a lot of opinion – but i do not really know. but i have some ideas on how to stop the social manifestation of it. and one of the most basic things is to not allow ourselves to be treated wrongly, nor allow our sons to act in this way, nor allow our daughters to accept it.

personally, i think it is an individual’s duty to bring themselves to right action and thought; to take that responsibility. to try to do this for another, invariably bites us in the a**.

as ever, you give me something meaty to chew on; thank you. i suspect that in general, our beliefs and views probably couldn’t possibly be further apart, but you are fiery and resolved and i get a great deal from interacting with you.

one step.

silvermoon

I pulled this from the skeptic Dictionary- It spoke loudly to me in that context….

The attractiveness of Wicca may be due to its friendliness towards women, its naturalistic view of sex and its promise of power through magick. It is very popular among women, and it is tempting to say that Wicca is women’s revenge for the centuries of misogyny and “femicide” or “gynicide” practiced by established religions such as Christianity. Wicca, like the Celtic religion, allows women full participation in the practice. Women are equals, if not superiors, of men. Women in Celtic mythology are unusual, to say the least. They are intelligent, powerful warriors, ruthless, sexually aggressive, and leaders of nations.

one/joy_step_at_a_time

Silver –
a book i have had for many years: http://ncronline.org/news/people/art-and-spirituality-name-mother

i have been trying to find the name of a movie i saw in the 80’s about a woman who, a devotee of Mary is cloistered underneath a christian church. She was creating textiles based on Mary, and when the priest tells her her visions are ‘incorrect’, she literally digs her way out from under the church. It moved me greatly when i saw it…and i have never been able to find the title for it.

silvermoon

One, what an absolutely beautiful woman- Meinhead.

She would be someone with who I can imagine it would be a great pleasure to spend an evening dining and talking with.

I am fantasizing today. I am dreaming into the ancient and resident visions of my youth. Looking for what is still there. Why it isn’t here now and what it means to be authentic and live life that way.

I dream about making a beautiful garden filled with healing herbs and making them into teas, tisanes, and tinctures.

I am dreaming about my resturant. I am am dreaming impractically but my view of what and who I wanted to be is so clear and the separation from who and what I became, so different.

It was all about pleasing others it was all about conforming. And it has in the recent episode brought to my attention that in fooling myself, I allowed someone else to hitchhike on that deception for purposes of his own.

The hithikers only interest was in where HE was going. And he was ok with taking a ride at my expense because on his terms it was offered.

I am trying to sidestep the fear of what I have to do to merely survive and how lonely I feel in making the decisions.

It is the blessing and the burden of being in charge of a life.

Shall I continue on the path I walk or stray off in another direction? What really are the options?

I remember Adrienne Rich” Murder, madness, suicide; is there no way out but these?” Somewhere there is.

Beginning with a dream then mixed with energy, prayer, luck and hope.

And more, so much more than these.

This is the dream WE dreamed together.Shall I go one one way alone or proceed another? What is true to myself?

Who am I who is in the image of GOD and the figure of the Godess? At the beginning and the end of life, they are one and I with them.

Why does our experience divide us so far from it?

On these things, I think.

one/joy_step_at_a_time

Silver – i am going t copy your post and reply in depth later; I have a friend coming over for her birthday cookies soon. 😉

i am having a similar conversation with myself. not only in form, but in content.

‘Why does our experience divide us so far from it? ‘ i don’t know that it does…i think our work is to find how to express it here, in this life….it is a finding, and in the experience we have choices – to sin (original meaning (an archery term): to miss the mark) and stay lost or to sin and continue to seek.

xx one step

Wini

one_step, usually when I use the terminology “man” or “men”, I am referring to both men and women … as in humans. But, I can understand the confusion, since I did reference women and men in my last statement.

Anyway, just as parents have to guide their children during their growth years (aka potty train (LOL) etc.) so too did Jesus guided us (his children) from acting as wild beasts of the world … Since most man (humans) did not want to be taught how to act civilly among each other (aka heathens, pagans … do what you want, any time you want, with no consequences), women were to insist that men read, comprehend and abide in Jesus’ truth.

It’s difficult to explain scriptures, since you do not practice Jesus’ way of life, you keep referencing back to the Catholic Church and how they had control over the masses through the centuries.

Back to Jesus (sorry about my lack of concentration, I’m taking care of my neighbor’s 6 year old … listening to what she wants versus writing my thoughts clearly) … mea culpa.

Jesus told us that we are all born evil. Born of carnal sin. All hearts of man (meaning women too) are wicked. With that known, He came to save us from our sins, died for us, sent us a letter to read (the Holy Bible) as a blueprint how to live righteously among each other … in peace, harmony, love … compassion, etc.

Instead of reading my writings today, since I can not give this e-mail serious thought (due to my little 6 year old friend standing next to me … yanking my arm to go out) … there is a great pastor who preaches Jesus’ truth. You can down load Pastor Murray’s Bible studies from sheperdschapel.com

Most preachers of today are contacting him to sharpen their knowledge of Jesus’ wisdom.

I’ll write later what my theory is why women are so mistreated today. Basically, it was that most men (meaning humans) didn’t not practice wisdom taught by Jesus.

Peace.

Ox Drover

Wini, I don’t think it is JUST “wisdom taught by Jesus” I think in many cases it is ANY WISDOM at all! Even a pack of wolves has an order of how things are to be done so that they can live in harmony with each other inside the pack, and when people live together there must be “rules” under which the interactions are conducted to enable to people to live together—whatever those rules are. The problem is that the psychopaths will not adopt ANY rules other than “I want what I want and I want what I want now and no one else should stop me from having what I want when I want it.”

The “dog eat dog” philosophy of “me first, damn the others” is not a wise way for any people to live together—no matter what the culture. Unfortunately, many cultures have developed a “top dog” (many times a P) gets that they want without any reprocussions, or a “women are not as good as men or have no rights” philosophy.

Some groups of “christians” have adopted this with the “women obey your husbands” without the rest of the story which is “husbands love your wives as yourself” (love in that context really means to TREAT her as you treat yourself).

These scriptures are also used by these same people to get women to submit to abuse by their husbands, which of course we know is not what Jesus intended in any of his teachings.

Instead of being taught by Christianity, the practice of abuse of women which was already incorporated into the culture pre-Christianity, was carried over into the adaption when they embraced “Christianity.”

If the words of the Bible are taken out of context they can be used to “prove” anything, no matter how perverted or bad! Just like that priest in the article saying He didn’t use a CONDOM when he had sex because the church didn’t approve of birth control! LOL ROTFLMAO

Buttons

OxD, thank you for your comments. They are spot-on. And, “Jesus’ way of life” has been practiced by many cultures and people, even before his birth. Native Americans and many indigenous cultures practiced respect, intetgrity, and strict rules of social conduct LONG before European contact.

silvermoon

Wini,

I think you are onto something- Jesus did teach a great many lessons on respect. Sadly they fall on deaf ears.. But that was another prolific comment: Let them who have ears, hear.

If in Pastor Murray we find a man who has ears and a passion for the way which Jesus taught, we have indeed found a man among men.

Jesus was a great teacher. The organization founded after his death has over history done things which are not of his wisdom.

The conflict between men and women in balance is as old as the story of humanity. I do not think the Christian Church has by any means expanded to a leadership position in the world. There are other larger ones and I believe its view of women is utterly demeaning.

I wish there was an easy answer. I wish. Even following Christ is not always easy even if it is without question a choice to good alternative over what is common.

jeannie812

I’ve been told I’m wrong about my view many times. Here it goes.

I believe that priests should be allowed to marry. This will not help the dysfunctional priests of today. But, could it breed future generations of healthy minded priests? Or, should I say healthier than we have now?

Just pondering.

Ox Drover

Jeannie, I have no problem with priests or ministers being married or celebate, the only problem is, the PERVERTS that molest children would not be detered by a sexual relationship with a woman, or even another man, they are attracted to CHILDREN.

Buttons

OxD, you hit that nail right on the head. How many “married” men and women out there sexually abuse their own children, let alone neighbor children or strangers? It’s not about a “marital” relationship – it’s about CONTROL and ABUSE. It’s about predators hiding behind the veil of religion – ANY religion – just as they will hide behind the veil of social or corporate status. Control and abuse have no boundaries, so marriage wouldn’t be a deterrant, at all.

I know people who practice celibacy that are not abusive, do not have control issues, and aren’t predators.

jeannie812

This drives me crazy. I SAID this would NOT help our current priests. This is what nobody hears.

Ok, lets back step a bit. How many sexual molestations do you hear about in the Baptist religion, or the Lutheran religion, or the Jehovah Witness religion, or the Jewish. Yet how many molestations do you hear about in the Catholic?

What is the difference? One of the religions is not allowed to marry.

I believe it built generations of sick minded men, sick minded Catholic priests who deny their sexuality. Do you get my meaning now?

Or am I the only one in the whole world who has this opinion?

Buttons

Jeannie812, this type of thing happens in EVERY denomination and EVERY religion and EVERY group where people gather together and are vulnerable to someone who has “power.”

I was a member of a Methodist church in VA. One of the members was a convicted child molestor, and nobody knew about it…..except the Police Department. Nobody was notified and no warnings were ever issued. This person continued molesting little boys until he was finally arrested because one 5 year old boy came home from a function bleeding from his rectum. The pervert made bail and promptly hung himself.

There is no difference – the Catholic Church just happens to be the largest “Christian” organization in the world with hundreds of millions of followers. There’s nothing wrong with celibacy if it is chosen with by the individual for a purpose, rather than being forced to follow a mandate. But, celibacy or not, molesting children isn’t about sexuality. It’s about deliberately inflicting damage THROUGH sexual means. If these perverts were suddenly castrated, they would find other means to inflict pain. Their perversions just BEGIN with sex and never, ever end.

Hopeforjoy

Yes, priests should be allowed to marry. There are so many good reasons for them to be able to have a loving relationship with another person. When they are supposed to supress their desires it seems to lead to more perverted desires. If priests had an emotional connection to a spouse and children, it would make them less likely to be a child molester. Deviant behavior happens when people can’t connect emotionally.

super chic

jeannie812… I think priests should be allowed to marry. Is there any truth to the story that the Catholic Church decided not to let them marry… because that way they would not leave their estate to their wives and family??… instead, they would leave it to the Church?? Is there anything in the Bible that says priests should not marry?

jeannie812

Ohhhhh, Shabbychic follow the dollar! I think your story is hitting on the truth! It sure sounds like a Catholic story. I’ll never forget the way the priests chased me down with their fist full of donation envelopes for me to deposit 15% of my income per week. Even though I was dressed in thrift store clothing.

Hopeforjoy: I agree with you. It would take years to get healthy minded priests. It is do-able. It won’t happen today, tomorrow, or the next day. It would take years. Yet it is do-able.

jeannie812

Buttons,

You gotta admit that the Baptist do not have the problems like the
Catholics. Or are they more slick?

If not. How can you compare isolated incidents in the Baptist church to the large scale violations of the Catholic church?

jeannie812

I’ll say one more thing before the hit man comes for me.

I did take my kids to the Catholic Church but we couldn’t attend undetected for the life of me.

I am not unfamiliar with the Catholic church. I was raised in it. I was the church organist (organist as a kid!)

Once I had kids I wanted them to experience church. I wanted to downplay and hide in the back of the church. My kids were hyperactive, I was low income, I didn’t want attention.

I couldn’t hide from the attention.

The priest invited me to a singles dance. He didn’t want to go with me. He was entertaining the group of guys elbowing each other next to us. I kept telling that priest that I am married. The priest ignored that and continued to encourage me to attend the singles dance. I gotta wonder if that priest knew something was terribly wrong in my marriage. Even though he knew nothing about me.

It freaked me out and I again quit the church.

Wasn’t the first time I quit.

BloggerT7165

Jeannie the SBC has just as many problems, maybe even more. In fact TIME magaine had a piece on them as one of the top 10 under reported stories for 2008 http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1855948_1861760_1862212,00.html

http://stopbaptistpredators.blogspot.com/

Ox Drover

Dear Jeannie,

Charles “Jackie” Walls III who is in Arkansas in prison was well known to me. This man is one of THE most prolific pedophiles in the US–1500 KNOWN children over 20 years in the Boy Scouts–and he was married, had children and appeared to live a “normal” life—pedophiles are not just guys who aren’t married, or priests/ministers, they are “every day joe the plumber” and your friendly family doctor, your teacher and so on.

It is just that for so long, this particular group have hidden inside the Catholic church because it gave them access to lots of children. PEDOPHILES ARE EVERYWHERE not just in Church, it is just at this moment the Catholics are getting the big hit in the media.

Thanks for those articles blogger, we can always count on you to know the score! (((hugs))))

super chic

Yes, and they just didn’t “hide” inside the church,
they were protected by the Bishops, etc, etc.
I think that is one of the most shocking aspects of the whole thing,
after they were “found out”… they were just moved
to another parish,
no parents were told, no one was warned.
I agree, pedophiles are everywhere.

BloggerT7165

Oxy,

You are right. They are everywhere that allows them access to children. One that not many people think about is babysitters. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sf9Ak0BV2cg&feature=youtu.be

super chic

Blog, that is just unbelievable, well,
I guess I have to believe it.
My brain doesn’t want to.
What a sick sick sick sick woman.

Wini

jeannie812, no where is it written in the Bible that those that teach scriptures can NOT marry. That is a Catholic doctrine of man made rules and regulations, not from the word of God.

Buttons

Wini – precisely. Man’s perversion of a good message in order to mete out control and dominance.

Wini

Here is some of the scriptures written in the Bible regarding those that make believe they are teaching the word of God to his sheep, but are falsely preaching for man made reasons. Some do it out of ignorance and others do it on purpose. Even so, they are in big trouble when they meet our father in heaven … Jesus does not like false teachers to lead his sheep (us) astray from His truth (wisdom).

After you read these few scriptures, Jesus already knew and warned us not to listen to man teach man made logic and not His wisdom.

“But there were also false prophets among the people even as there will be false teachers among you. . . 2 Peter 2:1

“For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness. . .” Jude 4

Denominations are ungodly (1 Cor 1:10-13; 3:4).

True pastor expose false teachers of Jesus’ word (John 10:12-13, Ephesians 5:11).

Most churches are led by false teachers (2 Peter 2:1-3).

Now you know why most people don’t hear the word of God. If the word of God is not taught, there is chaos. Look around today and what do you see? Chaos???

Wini

Buttons, you are exactly right. However, I wouldn’t want to be any of them standing in front of Jesus because He already knows they did not teach His wisdom to the sheep.

Ox Drover

Blogger, it is amazing to me that an adult can be so perverted sexually, but not suprising. I get to where I think I have seen or heard about the lowest thing a human can do and then someone else jumps up and does something even lower, and to a child even.

I watched a link today from the california prison system which is spending zillions of $$ keeping “lifers” inside for REAL LIFE, and how much money it is costing to provide their medical care now that they are a sick 55-65-75 years old (nothing but the BEST medical care mind you!) and using this as an excuse to NOT keep them incarcerated because it will cost too much. DUH!???? OK do they think if we turn them out on the street sick and in a wheel chair that the state won’t STILL have to provide their medical care?

Plus, what is the “return on cost” we have had for the 40 years they have been kept off the street? How many lives saved, how many rapes prevented, how many chidren would they have given birth to or sired to grow up to be another generation of psychopaths?

The interviewer asked one man age 65 who got life for first degree murder when he was in his 20s and asked him if he expected then to STILL be there in prison at this age, and he said “NO, I figured if I did their rehab programs and so on, they’d let me out in a few years.”

Last year in Ca 7303 “lifers” came up for parole, only 294 were granted by the board, and The GOV sent most back for reconsideration, and nixed a bunch of them, and only about 60 actually got parole out of the 7,303 that APPLIED. Like <1%. Yea for California! I never thought I would say they seem to be leading the nation in a good way!!!!! TOWANDA!!!!

At least murder still seems to be a CRIME out there!

BloggerT7165

I wanted to add a piece here. Another case that is starting to get attention http://tinyurl.com/2u5df25

Basically the story is this:

“After being raped and impregnated by a fellow churchgoer more than twice her age, a 15-year-old Concord girl was forced by Trinity Baptist Church leaders to stand before the congregation to apologize before they helped whisk her out of state, according to the police.”

Ox Drover

Dear Blogger,

Thanks, you have “topped” my “list of CHURCHES who rape children emotionally” list for the month of May, fortunately, May is nearly over, so maybe nothing worse will come to my attention.

Actually I think we should bring back the “ducking stool” and the pillory, and possibly branding criminals like this “Church”–yea, isn’t that what JESUS WOULD HAVE DONE? I know that that group of pious folks just made Jesus PROUD of how they handled this poor girl! Maybe we could just burn a cross on the parking lot, or maybe just burn the building, but then we would be just 1/1000th as bad as those folks are! UGH!!!!!!

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