By | November 11, 2007 96 Comments

Veterans Day wake-up call: Sociopaths as military impostors

Every Sunday my local newspaper, the Press of Atlantic City, prints the names of servicemen and women who died the previous week in Iraq and Afghanistan. Every Sunday, I make myself read the names. It’s the least I can do to honor their sacrifice. Today, Veterans Day, the newspaper printed a story about a local young man, a private, killed in Baghdad six months ago. I’m afraid I couldn’t read the story—it was too upsetting.

Veterans Day was always important to my ex-husband, James Montgomery. He wanted to show his patriotism and commemorate the comrades he lost in Vietnam as a member of the Australian military. In fact, when we met, 25 years after Vietnam, Montgomery claimed he was still affiliated with Special Forces. Military service was an important part of his persona.

This is an important part my upcoming book, Cracked Open, about life with a sociopath. An excerpt follows.

Veterans Day, 1996

In November 1996, James was invited to speak to schoolchildren about the importance of Veterans Day. A few days before the holiday, he went to a sixth-grade classroom in nearby Somers Point, New Jersey. With him were Joe Nickles, who had been an Army drill sergeant, and Bill Ross, who was a local mayor and had served in World War II. The three men sat on kid-sized chairs in the front of the room, talking about life in the military and answering questions from students. A teacher in the back of the classroom operated a video camera, transmitting the presentation to the rest of the school via closed circuit TV.

Each of the men spoke of their experiences in a way the children could understand. They talked about the training and the commitment. They explained what kept them going under fire—concern for their buddies.

A boy asked James a question: “Did you lose any friends in Vietnam?”

James answered slowly. “Yes,” he said, stretching out the word, “and I felt very sad when it happened. That’s why Veterans Day is so important. It’s a time to remember all those served their country, especially those who gave their lives.”

Standing in the back of the room, I was proud of everything James did to protect the rest of us.

James Montgomery Veterans Day 1995

When Veterans Day actually arrived on Monday, November 11, 1996, James planned to attend a ceremony in Mays Landing, New Jersey. The previous year, James was the keynote speaker. The Press of Atlantic City reported that he “recounted service-to-the-nation stories about comedienne Martha Raye and retired Major Dick Meadows, who led the raid on Son Tay to rescue POWs.” The local Mays Landing Record Journal ran a photo of him wearing his Special Forces beret and camouflage jacket in the rain.

I was supposed to meet him at the ceremony. But as I was ready to leave, I discovered that James had taken his car keys—and mine as well. After a moment of dismay, I was relieved—work deadlines were looming, and I really didn’t have time to drive out to Mays Landing, stand at a ceremony, and drive back. But my efficient and logical thinking didn’t go over well with my husband.

“Why didn’t you turn up?” he demanded when he arrived home.

“I was going to,” I said. “You took my car keys.”

“You could have come if you wanted to. You could have called a taxi,” he retorted, without acknowledging his own mistake.

I was astounded. “Are you kidding? That would cost a fortune!” I said. “And I’ve got a lot of work. I was better off staying home and getting it done.”

“It appears that what is important to your husband is not important to you,” he said. “Gale understood how important this is. She used to iron my uniforms.”

James stomped downstairs to his office, and I was left to wonder about being compared to my husband’s deceased wife. I felt guilty—temporarily—and then I went back to work.

Never in the military

What I know now, that I did not know in 1996, was that James Montgomery, my ex-husband, was never in the military.

From what I can tell, Montgomery had been including military service in his biographical profiles and resumes since at least 1980. He sent me a copy of the “mention in dispatches” report that recounted his heroism in Vietnam, for which he was awarded the Victoria Cross, Australia’s highest military honor. While we were married, Montgomery was active in the local chapter of the Vietnam Veterans of America. In gratitude for his contributions, the VVA gave Montgomery a plaque, which he hung on the wall.

After I left Montgomery, I began to suspect it was all a lie. I got my proof in 2005, shortly before I launched I sent my copies of Montgomery’s military records—and they were voluminous—to an organization called Australian and New Zealand Military Impostors. The organization’s investigators—all former military men—determined that every document was fabricated.

“We hold copies of documents that indicate he has been constructing his false history over many years and we have never before run across such an obviously labour intensive project,” ANZMI wrote. “Montgomery gets the award for the wannabe who tried the hardest to perpetuate his fraud while also being the most incredibly stupid.”

For more on Montgomery’s fake military service, read the following links. If his actions weren’t so despicable, they’d actually be quite entertaining.

Forged Victoria Cross citation (Scroll down to James Montgomery)

Montgomery’s military claims debunked

Thousands of impostors

Unfortunately, Montgomery is not alone. As documented on the Is he military? page of, thousands of men and women exaggerate the accomplishments of their military service, or claim to have served when they never did. has exposed more than 35,000 men who falsely claimed to be Navy SEALS. This is especially shocking because only 11,000 men actually graduated from the SEAL training program. And the POW network, which exposes false or exaggerated military claims, can’t even count how many liars are listed on its website.

Some of these people with trumped up military claims are relatively harmless. They just want to seem important when they aren’t. But many of the impostors are sociopaths. They use the mantle of respectability that goes with military service in order to con people. Or, they con the government, stealing military benefits that they don’t deserve.

Almost a year ago, on December 20, 2006, the U.S. Stolen Valor Act was signed into law. It addresses the unauthorized wearing, manufacture or selling of military decorations and medals. Some cases are being prosecuted. The United States Attorney’s Office in the western district of Washington is prosecuting eight cases in which phony veterans have scammed more than $1.4 million.

It’s a start.

Australia has laws against claming false military service. Montgomery could be subject to a fine of $3,300 and jail time of up to six months. The sentence is ridiculously light, but the law is rarely, if ever, enforced.

So by faking the respectability of military heroism, my ex-husband, James Montgomery, scammed over $1 million from myself and four other women that I know about. I did manage to get him fired from his job by exposing him in the Australian media. But so far, James Montgomery, like most military impostors, has not been prosecuted.


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David Pecard – The Imposter. Did you guys see this over the weekend? You probably profiled him somewhere on here. But what I find interesting is that he was actually in the military.

I mean he’s really good. Got himself out of prison and sued the prison.

But he says his cons were not that bad – like the Brito dude.

“But Pecard wasn’t out to make money, he says: “If I’m a conman, I guess that makes me the Robin Hood of conmen, because if I’m running cons, most omy cons have been to do something good.” ”

Right like check female inmates out of prison to sexually abuse them.

Yet is is so damn likeable and attractive right. In his interview he is so sincere – yet there is something waxy about him.

This is the best… “Army discovered that Pecard had enlisted and deserted at least seven times under seven different identities.”

Facing overwhelming evidence, Pecard pleaded guilty. Then he begged for leniency, saying that he had enlisted at 14 to serve his country and had seen combat in Vietnam. But the Army’s lead prosecutor, Gloria McKinney, says that she found no evidence that Pecard had even been there at all. ”

He once tracked down and captured another conman like himself. I guess it takes one to know one.

It’s amazing that this man is out and free… gets on television… people seem to like him and he is gettiing into acting.

Thisi s what I find incredible….”But whenever there was a threat of being discovered, he vanished: “When I reach a point where I can no longer safely be that person, then now I have one focus: I must survive and I must create a new person,” he says. ”

Look, no one can deny that the survival instincts of these people are pure genius… but it’s like evil genius.

It’s like what’s the difference between someone like this and someone with Multiple Personality Disorder (now known as Dissociative Identity Disorder)?

This is how he described it…

“We’re trying to build that model person,” says Pecard, referring to himself plurally. “It’s like raising a new child. What do you want to be when you grow up? Well, this one wants to be a lawyer so he goes to law school.”

Read more about him.. he’s so fascinating…

What kills me is they all say they are turning over a new leaf — changing – goiing straight.

Don’t really know my point. I guess..even when they are in the military for real, it’s a con or a fraud in some way and they always embellish their stories.

How he changed his identity so many times and got different social security numbers… I mean it’s almost like they can do anything because they believe they can.

Anyway… thought I would share this with you thought you all probably know about him already.



This guy.. Wayne Simms is his real name…. Davis Pecard is just one of many names used. This guy is a con. Charming, but yet a lier. He lives in Phoenix…. In a townhouse complex… I used to be a neighbor. Navy veteran myself, he talked to me and lied about being a cop. He said he was a cop for the LA county sheriff and he had been shot in the line of duty. He also gave me a card with the David Pecard name stating he was atty. and could help with legal problems and tried to get my records. Oh hell no!! He still lives in the same place as 5/3/08. I know….I know someone that is still friends with him…….even after I told her what he could do….but he has NOT changed and he gets NO credit for any military time served….. He needs to be in a mental hospital…… HONESTLY!! This guy is a joker!! He will meet his maker oneday. Navy Veteran….

Ox Drover


I totally disagree, he should NOT be in a mental hospital, he should be in PRISON where con men belong, he is NOT crazy, he is MEAN, EVIL, SELFISH, and a CRIMINAL.



“Lewis died suddenly at home in May, 1996, at the age of 43. Montgomery, who was home with her, called an ambulance.”

Marying a psychopath is a life expenctancy hazard. Any post-mortem?


This is a very interesting thread. I would like to add some info about a person I believe to be a spah. What are the guidelines for doing so?

one step


In response to the comments concerning David Pecard…

Unfortunately when this segment was originally aired (1999) in the course of editing there were large details that were taken from this documentary, it was truly scaled down to fit a call for media ratings. In the documentary, it does not detail that these were events that had taken place in the 1980’s and what took place that called for the investigation to expose Mr. Pecard, including the chain of events established before his arrest that were staged by Maricopa County. David Pecard and his family have and are continually working to keep these events concerning their lives in the past where it belongs. David Pecard has acknowledged his mistakes and his willing participation in them. Although this segment is very interesting, there is a side of the truth that was not aired. We would just like to move beyond this.


civilizedmanner – You seem to to speak either Mr. Picard or his family. It would be appropriate to identify your interest in this manner.

Our interest, here at Lovefraud, is to educate ourselves about ppathy and narcissism in order to heal from the destruction wrought in our lives by disordered people and to protect ourselves from further encounters. Part of this education is to identify and learn from cases of service fraud. Hence, we do discuss the cases in media – past and present.

Unfortunately, it is important that people know of David Picard’s actions in the world. Past behavior often being indicative of future behavior, knowing what he has done and sharing this information is also part of protecting ourselves and others.

I suggest you email Donna Anderson directly if you feel that you could bring more information, ‘a side of the truth’, to the discussion.

Ox Drover


David Pecard and his “family”? Which family, the boy he deserted at age 6 days or the other wives he took off and left?

If even 1% of the behavior he is supposed to have done is correct, he has shown himself to be HIGH IN PSYCHOPATHIC TRAITS and LOW on empathy or caring for anyone except HIMSELF.

I BET he would like to “move beyond” this and PRETEND NONE OF THIS EVER HAPPENED—that’s not the way life works, though. There are consequences for bad choices and bad behavior and being a pathological liar for decades means no one believes you or anyone who tries to say what a “good guy” you are. Sorry. The best indicator of future behavior is past behavior.

BTW I think Sheriff Joe is a GOOD GUY!


It’s very easy to watch a television program and to be engulfed in what media playrights decide to air, but in all that we watch on television, no matter how it is rated as non-fiction we still have to understand that there is a side of truth in every situation.

I, like each one of you, look to be healed and seek closure from the effects of the actions, decisions and behavior of others, I am his daughter and I in no way make any excuse for him because I have been greatly affected by his decisions, he, I and all of my siblings understand that his actions and decisions were wrong and again I speak on his behalf and for our family (all that were affected including the wives) we are moving forward.

There has been acknowledgement that his decisions were not good decisions nor were they of the best intentions, and as a family, a supportive family we are putting these chain of events behind us… not to pretend that they have never happend because we live the results of them everyday, but to move past adversity and live a life that manifests our triumph over this mountain. Through this and other trials we all have learned that our past does not indicate our future, with determination, love and support, anyone can move beyond anything.

I understand everyone has the right to their opinion, I definitely own the rights to mine, but I just wanted to share from an intimate point of view. I do not take the side of my father because of who he is, I am the first to tell him if he is wrong and when his actions are displeasing, I do not believe in aiding anyone when their character and integrity have become discredited but I do believe that everyone deserves a second chance and with love, support and guidance (whether clinical, religious, etc) I believe that everyone can overcome.

My father’s actions have wounded many people but wounds do heal, some take longer than others but the end result is they all have the ability to heal.

Best to you all!

Ox Drover

Dear Civilized manner,

I too have a psychopathic father, actually I call him my sperm donor because that was basicly what he did for me,but I did get to know him as a young adult, he was actually in the navy in WWII at age 12, by 16 was an officer in the Civilian Transportation corps, then when they were going to ship him over seas her resigned his commission and got drafter b y the army as a private at 17, at that time he married my 16 yr old mother.

I think he had 7 wives all togerther, and untold busxinesxs partners he fleeced, there were 4 of us kids, only one (who is just like him) has anything to do with him—but your father sounds a great deal like mine, except I DO know mikne tried to “clean up his act” the last few years and get some dignity, or what HE PERCEIVED as dignity.

My sperm donor ended up becomeing quite wealthy (one of the Forbers 400 one year) anbd in his flield for a couple of decades he was TOP DOG, and he wanted everyone to worship how smart he was and he published this 1200 page autobiography tellling how smart he was (smarte3st man in the universe) and so on.l Didn’t say anything nice about me for sure, but I wantged to ‘clear my name: so I actually got out the records and did the intervfie4ws and looked up all the citations of his life (and I had some he didn’t have) and wrote and documented and researcfhed his life story-[—which wasn ‘t quite what he said it was, and i also had the lies he told hin newspape4rs and magazinjes l(he liked to spout off) that contradicted his lies, that showed up he was a POATHOLOGICAL LIAR

But you know, when it was done, I no longer had any desire to clearn my name. Anyone who knew him and read the book knows what a liar he i s, andytone that read it and didn;’t know what a liar he was, doesn’t know me any how. So lmy kids can h ave the book, the two copies of it. Or burn itg if they want to.

I think you’d probably just be better off ignnoring what crosses the intgernet or the news true or false, cause the more you stir it the more it stinks. Just live your family life and enjoy each other if you do.


Well my husband (RIP) served two tours in Nam in the early 60s. When he enlisted is when he became a US citizen. After his 2 tours he came home with a file at the VA that was more than 6 inches wide due to the agent orange they sprayed the years he served. He was operated on for cancer, was weak in health for the remaining years until ALS took him.

After he died, my bosses went after me with a vengeance.

Coincidence? They are vultures watching every microscopic move of your life and when the iron is HOT, they strike.


dear civilized manner: i do not believe that spaths can heal. I am sorry, but disordered people do not become ordered, regardless of the support they receive, nor do they deserve a second chance.

you on the other hand, do and can. and i wish you the very best on your healing journey.


One thing I’ve noticed about actual combat veterans is that they tend not to like to talk about their experiences. So boasting about such experiences is a huge red flag for me, especially if they claim to be seals or rangers…..


Thanks for your comments, I wish you all the best as well!


Donna, THANK YOU for this article!

As I’ve posted, before, the eldest son is a diagnosed sociopath and I have physical evidence of his forgeries as a “decorated combat veteran” in my possession.

Although I can’t “prove” this, it is my firm belief that he deliberately broke both of his wrists while still in the military, supposedly rendering him incapable of handling combat weaponry. Of course, these “injuries” have no effect on his target practicing with his own firearms and the ones that he inherited from the ex spath.

“Stolen Valor,” is what it’s termed, and it goes FAR deeper than just that. At this writing, the spath son is receiving Veterans’ Benefits via his fabricated and forged documentation, and nobody seems interested in this, whatsoever.

I have to believe that, someday, someone WILL take an interest in what he’s done and hold him accountable. (sigh) It is a slap in the face to all of the boys and girls who will never live a whole, healthy life as a result of their combat experiences (physical AND emotional), and to the men and women who are never going to celebrate another birthday because they have been killed in combat.

SHAME on these creatures! SHAME!!!!

Frank Lee Speaking

Anyone who is dumb enough to join the miltary of their own freewill and gets killed or injured that’s their own fault and I have very little sympathy for them. You don’t want to get shot? Well here is an idea; STAY AT HOME AND DON’T JOIN UP!

They are not heroes, they are willing cannon fodder. Especially US troops serving in Iraq and Afghanistan as that’s just a disgusting war of US colonialism for oil and opium. But if that’s what makes them happy then go on, but don’t give me this “they fight for freedum!!!!” crap Americans come out with.

Huge numbers of sociopaths join the US military just so they can have fun slaughtering “ragheads” and get away with. The mentality of the US military in that part of the world was shown in all it psychotic glory in that recent chopper video of US military mowing down innocent civilians including children in a van and then they laughing and slapping high fives. Even though these lunatics went to war they are no heroes either.

But having said that, people who pretend to be war heroes are beyond contempt. At least the morons who allowed themselves to be slaughtered in Iraq for Shell, Mobile, BP etc actually suffered for their “cause” as retarded and immoral as it is, but these fake venterns are something else. Sitting at home watching CNN and then pretending they were heroes. Bizarre! The US military is filled with sociopaths and moronic cannon fodder who deserve no sympathy and the fake veterens are even worse.

There is also something proundly twisted about a society making heroes of people who wlling sign up and kill millions for oil. Get a grip on the bigger picture before declaring one set of socioapths and kncukleheads “heroes” and another set of socioapths and frauds “heroes”.


I find the last comment to be profoundly disturbing on so many different levels.


I also find “Frank Lee’s” remarks disturbing and completely out of line.


Oh, Frank – if you can’t spell freedom maybe you don’t deserve to have it.


MiLo-I couldn’t have said that better myself. I deal with tons of vets from Korea, Vietnam up through Desert Storm on a daily basis at my job and I always thank them. I am also going into the army as soon as I can make the weight limit, so I am more than a little offended!


Um, Frank Lee, you can’t possibly believe that making such vicious remarks wouldn’t get you flamed.

Veterans of Viet Nam did not HAVE a choice, but were drafted and sent abroad with very little training. Today, our serving military are doing what they’ve been trained to do, and they deserve our support EVEN if we disagree with why they are engaging in combat.

I find your remarks to be cruel, arrogant, and completely off the hook. For my part, I will choose NOT to read any future post that you make.

Have a nice day! 😀


Soldiers are SEXY!!

I Love a man in uniform! Always have.

I have a cousin in the Air Force and a cousin in the U.S. Navy.

God Bless America!!

And, just for the record, it’s our PRESIDENTS that take us to war, not our soldiers.
The soldiers are simply carrying out the orders of the Commander-in-Chief (i.e. Prez).

And there’s plenty of blame to go around on both sides of the aisle for the wars that we are currently involved in.
I’m NOT trying to turn this into a political thing….at all.

Shout out to my cousins!!! Love you guys!!!


Soldiers are SEXY-especially Marines. My daddy was a Marine and I can hardly believe it everytime I see pics of him in his dress uniform when I was tiny. At my old job, there was a Marine that always came into the office and I always had to stop and stare. I am going into the Army-unfortunately too old for the Marines. I know people probably don’t think of female soldiers as sexy but I will take pride in it anyway and btw, I’m not one of the masculine looking females-I’m girly!!!


I admire you so much for going into the military, Erin 1972.

If we (women) lived in Saudi Arabia, we would not even be allowed to drive a car.
I thank God I live in the U.S.A., and I don’t take my freedoms for granted.


Thanks Rosa-women here don’t realize just how lucky we are to be free. Some of my old neighbors lived in Saudi Arabia for awhile and they said it was so oppressive for women-especially in Afghanistan. It’s the worst for those women. They have to cover their whole bodies, even their faces. It’s so awful. I am so lucky to have the freedom to do this and be a police officer when I’m done. I definitely don’t take that freedom for granted.

Ox Drover

It isn’t JUST about the “stolen valor” with the psychopaths, I don’t think, it is that they are attempting to steal the MERITS of another. Trying to steal something they have not earned the right to have—pretending to be HONORABLE when they, by the very pretense, are DISHONORABLE and don’t “get it.”

Frank Lee Speaking–it is a sad fact of the world that no country can live without a military or a police force. Whether the wars are fought for “Justice and Mom and Apple pie” or to steal the neighbor’s cow, or take over the neighbor’s farm, the soldier himself doesn’t determine.

In our country, we have the right to vote. I exercise that right. I know that there are men and women who bought that right for me to vote with the blood of their bodies. They also bought the right for you to speak your piece however you wish. I don’t agree with you, but I will defend your right to say whatever you want to say.

I would request though, that you not bring this kind of statements here to LoveFraud. There are lots of political blogs on which you can vent your spleen in a venue in which it is appropriate, but I don’t think this is one of those places.

The advice and posts up until now that you have given here have been well received because they were good posts and appropriate to THIS BLOG. I do hope you will come back and contribute to the subject matter that is relevant here! Peace.l

super chic

frank lee,

freedom is not free, may I suggest
you read a history book of the United States,
we only have these freedom’s because of the
men and women who died for us, you only have the freedom
to write what you did… because of the men and women who died for you.

If our freedom was in jeopardy, I would go out
and fight for it myself, I would not want to live any other way,
I would willingly die for freedom.

Land of the Free,
Home of the Brave.

I do not believe it’s about oil,
that is so simplistic.


Frank Lee Speaking

With all due respects shabychic no American died for my freedom thank you very much. LOL!

It is about NOTHING other than oil. Good God, I cannot believe people like you actually exist. The US government is pure evil and running the most diabolical, sociopatic and most hated nation on Earth. It has nothing to do with people being against your crazy notions of “Americun freedum”… It is depressing when you see ordinary Americans like you actually defending an evil mentality which makes ordinary Americans suffer for the crimes of you psychopathic political and corpoate elite. Anyways..

On a side note, I want clarify something. I have full sympathy for the American troops who died in Vietnam. Them poor guys were drafted and had no choice. I should of stated that. Even though that war was pure American evil as well.

Frank Lee Speaking

“Rosa says: Soldiers are SEXY!!”


Americans really are a most child like people of extremely low intellect.


Frank Lee, as a Christian believing and following the wisdom of Jesus Christ … He gave us Psalms 144:1-15 specifically for our service folks who fight for Truth (Him) to defeat Lies (evil aka Satan, Lucifer, the lord of darkness or any of the numerous names people call him and his army of evil doers… psychopath, sociopath) …

1 [a psalm] of David. Blessed [be] the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, [and] my fingers to fight:

2 My goodness, and my fortress; my high tower, and my deliverer; my shield, and [he] in whom I trust; who subdueth my people under me.

3 LORD, what [is] man, that thou takest knowledge of him! [or] the son of man, that thou makest account of him!

4 Man is like to vanity: his days [are] as a shadow that passeth away.

5 Bow thy heavens, O LORD, and come down: touch the mountains, and they shall smoke.

6 Cast forth lightning, and scatter them: shoot out thine arrows, and destroy them.

7 Send thine hand from above; rid me, and deliver me out of great waters, from the hand of strange children;

8 Whose mouth speaketh vanity, and their right hand [is] a right hand of falsehood.

9 I will sing a new song unto thee, O God: upon a psaltery [and] an instrument of ten strings will I sing praises unto thee.

10 [It is he] that giveth salvation unto kings: who delivereth David his servant from the hurtful sword.

11 Rid me, and deliver me from the hand of strange children, whose mouth speaketh vanity, and their right hand [is] a right hand of falsehood:

12 That our sons [may be] as plants grown up in their youth; [that] our daughters [may be] as corner stones, polished [after] the similitude of a palace:

13 [That] our garners [may be] full, affording all manner of store: [that] our sheep may bring forth thousands and ten thousands in our streets:

14 [That] our oxen [may be] strong to labour; [that there be] no breaking in, nor going out; that [there be] no complaining in our streets.

15 Happy [is that] people, that is in such a case: [yea], happy [is that] people, whose God [is] the LORD.

Frank, I have no clue what country you are from, but I am sure that many of our military people who died for your freedom are buried in your country.

Peace be with you.

Frank Lee Speaking

You know, I think a lot of the christian stuff on this blog puts a lot of people off it. Reading the above to justify evil war and murder of innocent men, women and children in the Middle East for oil is so depressing to read. The people or Iraq and Afghanistan are not being freed! Only a moron would think that killing a million of them for oil and opium is freedom!

Wake up call. If you examine the God of the Judeo-Christian Bible and see how he behaves HE IS THE GREATEST SOCIOPATH IN HISTORY. He expects everyone to do as he says or he burns them in hell for questioning him. Look at Adam and Eve and then follow the entire saga to it sociopathic/psychopath conclusion. The lunatic Biblical God (who is not real) even demanded his own son be slaughtered as an act of loyalty. Hello…!

I bet a lot of victims of sociopaths come on this board looking for help and they are put off right away by all the American bible nuts on here. Keep your God to yourself. The last thing anyone needs after being victimised by a sociopath is mindless quotes about fictional other one living in the clouds.


Frank (ly) I think you are the one who has now “put a lot of people off”.

Obviously you have an agenda that has no business being on this board.


Frank, 1st, Adam and Eve lived in the 2nd earth age, as we all do. There are 3 earth ages. One prior to the one we are currently living in and the 3rd earth age where all evil is rid of.

If you do NOT read His word, you are only speculating on what you think His truth is. It takes an entire lifetime to read His word. The older you become, the wiser you become via reading His word. The wiser you become, the more is revealed in His truth. A person can live to 120, you still won’t know all of His truth. His truth is beyond man’s comprehension. Besides Frank, you are comprehending His truth from a carnal eye instead of a Spiritual eye.

Try these passages on for size. He specifically states that there are good wheat and evil tares among people on this earth. Tares are the seeds of Satan.

Matthew 13:1-58

1 The same day went Jesus out of the house, and sat by the sea side.

2 And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore.

3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;

4 And when he sowed, some [seeds] fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:

5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:

6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.

7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:

8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.

9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and [their] ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and should understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

16 But blessed [are] your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous [men] have desired to see [those things] which ye see, and have not seen [them]; and to hear [those things] which ye hear, and have not heard [them].

18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.

19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth [it] not, then cometh the wicked [one], and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;

21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth [it]; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

31 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:

32 Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.

33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked [one];

39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

44 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.

45 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls:

46 Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.

47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:

48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.

49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

51 Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord.

52 Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe [which is] instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man [that is] an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure [things] new and old.

53 And it came to pass, [that] when Jesus had finished these parables, he departed thence.

54 And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hath this [man] this wisdom, and [these] mighty works?

55 Is not this the carpenter’s son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?

56 And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this [man] all these things?

57 And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.

58 And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.

Peace Frank.

Elizabeth Conley

Real veterans usually don’t spend much time aggrandizing themselves.

If someone does this, then they’re either not a real veteran or they’re exaggerating their service.

I spent 8 year in the Marines during the most boring decade of the cold war. There was little danger and less glory. I remain grateful the the Marines for providing me a relatively sheltered environment to spend my late teens through mid twenties. I find myself a bit embarrassed when people “thank me for my service.”

The only people who have ever questioned my military record have been frauds themselves. Both men were hopelessly narcissistic. One of them questioned my military service, my twenty two year marriage, my family heritage, my world travels, my college education and practically every other pertinent detail of my life. It turned out that his slander of me was entirely a projection of his own issues. His own carefully constructed identity was an elaborate fraud.

He slandered me because he knew I could effortlessly prove that all his own claims of glory where fake. As a genuine veteran with connections to the very institutions he claimed to have served with distinction, I knew he was a fraud. I never challenged his word, because I saw no point to it. His fondly held delusions were widely accepted as facts by all the members of his ministry and the huge Evangelical church where he was an “elder”. Who was I to rock the boat?

The final straw came unexpectedly, when he accidentally revealed to me that he had been siphoning off donations to his ministry for his own personal use. Unfortunately, I was so surprised by this revelation that I failed to conceal my gut wrenching horror. I’m afraid the emotion was clear to him from the expression on my face. We were in a room full of his most ardent followers, at a meeting he had initiated for the purpose of excoriating me for some imagined sin.

In was then that he threw the most amazing tantrum I’ve ever seen in an adult. It was a complete meltdown. It resembled descriptions I’ve read of psychotic episodes. I hope I never see anything like it again. The creepiest part about the incident was the way his followers accepted his bizarre fit as acceptable and justified.

As I tried to process the events leading up to this cataclysmic event, I realized that the reason so many worthwhile people had left his ministry was because they were deliberately distancing themselves. Like me, they knew he was a fraud. Unlike me, they knew that he was also a toxic personality. They may not have expressed it in those terms, but they were wise enough to either consciously or instinctively distance themselves.

From this bizarre episode I learned a lot about real veterans and fake ones. Real veterans usually don’t bother to call fake veterans on their drama. Fake veterans have a lot of drama. Real veterans assiduously avoid the drama.

Stay away from the drama. At the first sign o drama, beat feet!


Elizabeth, I don’t know why this is true, but it seems that people prefer to avoid truth for what it is, especially if it’s a nasty truth like being an imposter. Is it easier, or is it less painful? I don’t have the answer to that, but you’re spot-on about the drama.

It’s also interesting to see fake veterans move amongst real veterans – their conversations are so contrived and they feed on all information that they can from the real veterans to smooth out the jargon, remember campaigns, etc. UGH!!!!

Brightest blessings, and thank you for your service! (wink)

Elizabeth Conley

“Stay away from the drama. At the first sign o drama, beat feet! ”

PS: As soon as I adopted this policy, my life began to steadily improve. Sure, bad THINGS still happened to me, but bad PEOPLE stopped happening to me. Yes, there is a difference!


Elizabeth, I can attest that what you’ve written is true about them. My big boss (above my immediate supervisor) accused me of everything she herself, was guilty of. I’m still shaking my head 11 years later how she got everyone on her side against me for projecting her evil ways on me … then fell from grace when their (the bosses )attorneys asked me point blank in depositions my answers to her accusations. I kept looking at this one attorney thinking, aren’t you suppose to know the answers before you ask the questions? Long story short, the evil ones did themselves in, they didn’t need any help. Just give them enough rope and they hang themselves.


Elizabeth Conley


I dunno what the deal is with impostors. I’ve been told that many of them aren’t bad people at all. They just find their real pasts to be empty of real merit.

My husband is a very good mentor. He advises young men to go out and do things they will be proud of for a lifetime. He advised a good friend of ours who is an asthmatic to go ahead and serve the State Department in Iraq. I believe that having taken this advice may forever inoculate this man from any urge he might have to exaggerate his accomplishments.

It is my natural impulse to be gentle with impostors. On the other hand, some impostors are personality disordered. I lack the ability to readily discern between the two types of impostor. This “blindness of the intuition” I suffer may well be incurable. It’s best for me to beat feet when my reason tells me that someone’s story doesn’t add up. My intuition is absolutely no help whatsoever in telling good people from bad.

Elizabeth Conley

“Long story short, the evil ones did themselves in, they didn’t need any help. Just give them enough rope and they hang themselves.

Peace. ”

There is balance and order to the universe.

The same thing happened to the narcissist I described in such detail here. The big difference was that he never faced LEGAL repercussions. The church leaders who discovered his fraud simply cut him loose.

He’s currently perpetuating his fraud on a whole new flock of dupes.

The peace comes in knowing that every one of his past victims are thriving. They’re all better people for having overcome the obstacles he thrust in their path.

It all works out.


Elizabeth, I believe most people would bring them into court if it was affordable. Enough said on the cost of justice today.



sweetcynic and Elizabeth Conley,

My father was in WWII, having been drafted into the Army. You are right when you say that true soldiers rarely talk about their wartime experiences, my father being an example. What I learned about him usually came by way of other family members. I just remember one conversation with him, telling me about how his unit of soldiers was walking through a forest, there were a couple of German snipers in the trees, being shot down, killed. He told the story matter-of-factly, being brief about it. My impression was that it was a horrible experience – he didn’t want to talk about it, living through it was enough.

Elizabeth Conley

Y’know Wini, court is costly. However, I think churches and ministries find public embarrassment to be even more costly.

The revelation that a ministry leader is stealing donations causes donors to melt away. The legitimate work of the ministry is severely damaged.

A church that prides itself in a “discerning” leadership finds its credibility severely undermined by a revelation that it has repeatedly defended an elder whose behavior is ultimately revealed to be toxic to the flock.

To churches and ministries, prosecuting criminal behavior on the part of an elder or ministry leader costs them donations and followers. That’s more painful to them than lawyer’s bills.


Elizabeth, that because they know these passages (SMILE).

Jeremiah 51: 62
Then shalt thou say, O LORD, thou hast spoken against this place, to cut it off, that none shall remain in it, neither man nor beast, but that it shall be desolate for ever.

Matthew 5: 30
And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Mark 9: 43
And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Mark 9: 45
And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Peace Elizabeth.

Elizabeth Conley


I understand where you’re coming from. One of my great-uncles served in the Marines during WWII, storming beach after beach in the Pacific. He was an expert in communications, and men with his training were in very high demand. Communications on the beach had to be established at all costs. The turnover of personnel in his unit due to combat losses was terrific. I once tried to explain to a group of young college students how his service adversely affected him for the rest of his life.

One of the young ladies became outraged by what she perceived as “my lies”. Someone had apparently convinced her in the past that no serviceman in WWII was ever expected to storm a beach more than once. She expounded this naive fantasy so passionately that I simply stopped trying to explain the harsh realities of wartime service to her. The Marines could not afford to use their expensively trained communications experts, called linemen, only once. They replaced linemen when they died, they promoted the linemen who survived. These men’s “experience” was to valuable to be wasted in the rear. Communication was a vital linchpin to the Marine’s success in the Pacific.

My great uncle was a modest, retiring man. I learned of his past through family accounts and research, not from him. I believe he would have been more comfortable if no one knew of his service. He certainly never spoke of it.


Frank Lee,

Finally you are someone that makes a lot of sense. I so agree with you in regards to how the military and religion today are hotbeds for sociopaths and cluster B personality types.

I’ve had times where I have socialized and interacted with marines and special forces soldiers, which has given me insight into how their actions overseas have affected them and their philosophy/outlooks on living. And from my limited experiences interacting with them, I can say that these soldiers views on human life are terrifying. They are 100% lacking in any empathy and believe the use of overwhelming power, terror, and force is the most opportune way to get people to behave and to control them. Some of them bragged about how they would scare families to death because they would use bombs to blow in the doors of peoples’ homes before proceeding to violently raid and drag out “suspects” who almost never have anything to do with the Taliban or any enemy forces. These guys are also happily willing to bring about the death of someone for the most flimsiest of reasons and without any afterthoughts or regrets whatsoever. In fact, they appear to gloat and take pleasure in their atrocious actions.

Why hasn’t Lovefraud posted the news story about the “Kill Team” in Afghanistan where a group of soldiers would go around and kill Afghan civilians, collect their body parts as trophies, and pose with their badly mutilated bodies? This is a clear-cut case of pure sociopathy. Furthermore, according to the whistle blowers of that battalion, this type of behavior is actually quite common in the armed forces and he said himself a good many number of soldiers over in Afghanistan are “scumbags and murderers.” Here in America, we have a voluntary military, and what type of person is going to volunteer for a organization like the US Army, Marines, Airforce, etc., that relies on the use of brute force to ensure compliance? What type of person would want to join an organization that violently occupies countries and uses overwhelmingly force to try to pacify them? It doesn’t take too much thinking to realize that a sociopathic personality would find a whole lot of fun to be had in the US military today. They can torture, maim, frighten, and murder with near impunity in far away, out-of-sight countries where the people “don’t matter.”

On the matter of Christianity and the Bible, the god described in the Old Testament fits the sociopathic/psychopathic profile to a tee. He is violent, vengeful, jealous, petty, and routinely commits genocide against anyone who doesn’t worship him enough. I mean really, only a psychopath would have people sent to everlasting fire and torment just because they didn’t bow down. It’s an absolutely sick belief system. And Christian churches often have religious charlatans (aka – sociopaths) who only go to church and play the Christian “role” in order to look good to the community and portray their unfortunate victims as the evil ones. I know this is sometimes so since I’ve been on the receiving end of this kind of treatment.

Anyway, I think it’s only fitting the hypocritical Christian churches of today would be so nationalistic and support criminal war crimes overseas. If you read about Nazi Germany, you will see how the Catholic churches played a significant role in instigating the Holocaust. Hitler often proclaimed his absolute adherence to Christianity and stated he was fighting the Jews and Bolsheviks in the name of Christ. Nazism was a fusion of the power of the German state, military, and state supported so-called Christian churches.

Ox Drover


Actually, LF did post an article about QUOTE “Why hasn’t Lovefraud posted the news story about the “Kill Team” in Afghanistan where a group of soldiers would go around and kill Afghan civilians, collect their body parts as trophies, and pose with their badly mutilated bodies?”

You will also find that LF management and bloggers do not condone psychopathic behavior in the military or in the church, the political, the judicial, the police, or in any other organization in our society…but if you think that eliminating the military because there are psychopaths in it will “cure” all the evils of this country, or eliminating the police because there are psychopathis that are cops, or eliminating a government because many politicians are psychopaths, or eliminating schools because there are pedophile teachers there….what would you have?

Sure I am just as angry about bad military personnel, bad cops, bad elected officials, bad teachers, bad parents, bad neighbors, and bad priests as anyone anywhere is angry. Which is why episodes of bad behavior, psychopathic behavior should be exposed and people educated about how to spot the psychopaths.

I have a psychopathic son in prison. He is a diagnosed psychopath, and he is where he deserves to be for murder. I hope he never gets out. I fought for his last parole attempt to be denied. It was denied. When he comes up for parole again I will fight that parole attempt. I put my “money where my mouth is” where psychopaths are concerned.

But at the same time, I know that as a country we need a military, we need police, we need teachers, and we need spiritual leaders, and political leaders…but we also need to weed out the “bad apples” from among them. This isn’t a new problem with military personnel, it has gone on as long as there have been “soldiers” in “armies”—and kings and courts. It is part of the human condition in every country in the world. One man’s “freedom fighter” is the other man’s “terrorist” and I don’t see that changing any time soon.

The best thing about Lovefraud management and bloggers is that we have a common enemy—anyone, anywhere, any time, who behaves in a manner that demonstrates they have no empathy, sympathy, compassion, kindness or honesty toward their fellow man.


“the god described in the Old Testament fits the sociopathic/psychopathic profile to a tee”

Let’s take a simple, scaled down look at this statement from an academic point of view (tho I am just a grad student):

1). The “god” of the Old testament has a name. “God” is a title. His name is Yahweh. The Muslims call Him Allah. I mention this because it is important that we establish the regional link between the two religions. The Chaldean’s called Him El as in ELOHIM. The Hebrews borrowed the name El. Ex: El Shadai, JoEL, etc.

2). What may seem “sociopath” to a 21 century American mindset (as far as referring to Yahweh), is in actuality the followers of the early dieties of that time frame, in that cultural fabric, warring to establish power bases and land ownership. It was simply a matter of survival.

3). “God” of the OT translates into Jesus of the NT under a NEW COVENANT (Old Covenant again a land issue) which was considered so odd that it got Him killed. LOVE ONE ANOTHER AS I HAVE LOVED YOU. HUH??? Are you kidding me?….they said…

According to Christian (BIG C HERE) theology (orthodox) He “reinvented the wheel” on Mt. Calvary. Everything the OT said to do, His death negated (except that which was brought over to this side of the cross Ten Commandments etc.) example: Oxy mentioned the stoning of the woman caught in adultery. That is a very typical occurrence in Middle Eastern thought then and now, (yes Virginia the Hebrew people are Middle Eastern not from Kansas USA sorry, Toto ) and is still practiced today in many places in the Mid East. It is called an honor killing. That Jesus intervened with the honor killing and put a stop to it: well very odd indeed. But that is His message in ESSENCE.

4). I spent many years in a Conservative Mennonite community (yes, in Kansas) and so I tend to be a pacifist in that I believe Jesus DID NOT TEACH THAT HIS DISCIPLES KILL ANYONE. The 1st Century followers of “The Way” were not encouraged to join the military because they were PACIFISTS. It was Constantine that changed the view of Christianity which then included military service but from it’s early days it was not practiced.

Having said that I also believe that I will defend my own if I have too. I was also a practicing Buddhist and I am thinking of the old TV show “Kung Fu’ where the hero only kicked ass when he was defending someone who was vulnerable. I am thankful for our troops and they are in my prayers but I MYSELF COULD NOT DO IT. I am glad someone does it. My son is in Navy ROTC and I am proud of him. He is not a sociopath BTW just a really awesome 16 year old.

This conversation could go on forever (as theology libraries hold shelves and shelves of books just on one gospel alone!) so I will end with this:

Here on LF we (and I say WE coz I AM HERE TOO) come to help those who have been victims of disordered relationships. We have been conned by individuals who are narcissistic and sociopaths in their hard wiring and we are hurting. I will again quote Ox Drover as she often says we tend to “see spaths behind every bush” we can get a bit paranoid and we often get triggered.

This site is a place to heal. Yes I have been zinged before on this site. Recently a couple of times. My persona, my gender, was maligned and I was accused of trying to manipulate a “confession” out of another poster who was hurting. I was giving that individual my all, my heart, my concern, my sensitivity, and yes my KINDNESS AND LOVE. That is nothing to puke at BTW. I don’t always succeed BUT I TRY. And NO I don’t believe in confession. Sorry to disappoint…

To me that reeks of DRAMA so I retreat and I do not feed the drama. That is part of my “keeping the peace” though I am no expert on the subject like I said I try…

And yes I am a Catholic (and a fan of Saint Francis of Assisi) and I have read here recently the comments on Donna’s view of discussing religion. As long as it is respectful, it is not denied us as posters.. I DO NOT wish to make new Catholics. If someone is drawn there then I encourage but I am not in the converting business. I also make myself accountable to Donna via email.

I have been many, many denominations and religions, thus my master’s in Theology-I have lived it. I am PROGRESSIVE. Look that up before making any judgments on me, that’s all I ask. I am part Native American so I practice that. I tend to have a soft spot for Amma the hugging Saint of India, she, like Mary of Nazereth represents the Divine Feminine to me. Note I say TO ME..

I value human life whether it is an unborn child (tho I refuse to judge on that one) or whether it is someone on death row. YES I hate it when child molesters are running around out there BUT I DO NOT WISH DEATH ON THEM because I also believe in KARMA. If it were my kids that were molested I might change my mind.

Finally, I DO NOT use the scriptures as my own personal fortune cookie. I do think of them as wisdom. The one scripture I have been meditating on lately is the one that says “he who is given much is required much”. I am thinking particularly of the folks here on LF who are a storehouse of wisdom. It’s a big job…

The teachings of Jesus, in their ESSENCE, is what I try to practice. I often fail but when I do. I get up, I dust myself off, and I keep on truckin…and I also highly regard the teachings of the Buddha and Mohamed, and Krishna, and, you get the point..

I have been wanting to say this for awhile now but have been waiting and meditating and yes, praying too, oh my…and I hope I am making sense. I went on a 25 mile bike ride yesterday and at 53 I am a dead woman walking (barely). Yes, I said, WOMAN…:)

I have “said what I need to say” because I am learning to speak up and not let others take a dump on me… and I am letting it go, so….

Blessings to all today,



so very well said!!
you got each and every point, a credit to your experience and your education, I think.
(((thanks Adamsrib))) for being so eloquent.


🙂 thanks…

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